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PS4 Cross-Play Restrictions Are All About Money, Says Ex-Sony Dev

It says no cross-PLAYS, we're allowed to have one.

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The lack of PS4 cross-play in Fortnite and other games can be chalked up to money, according to former Sony developer John Smedley. The ex-boss of Daybreak Game Company, formerly known as Sony Online Entertainment, said that he saw the rationale first-hand when he was at the company.

"[W]hen I was at Sony, the stated reason internally for this was money," he said in a tweet (via Eurogamer). "They didn't like someone buying something on an Xbox and it being used on a Playstation. simple as that. dumb reason, but there it is." This was presented in the context of telling fans to keep up the pressure.

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In other words, Sony doesn't want players to purchase content for Fortnite on one platform and still experience it on their own. This situation has come up before in other popular online games like Rocket League, and comments from Phil Spencer made it clear it wasn't Xbox blocking the pipes. At the time, Psyonix said it could activate the feature anytime it had Sony's approval. After cross-play was temporarily and accidentally enabled for Fortnite, Spencer more pointedly said he would have liked to see them leave it on.

Sony has roundly faced criticism over keeping its online games in a walled garden, most recently with Fortnite due to its massive popularity and recent launch on Nintendo Switch. Sony issued a response to the backlash, but it didn't exactly assuage concerns. Instead, it sounds like Sony plans to stay the course:

"We're always open to hearing what the PlayStation community is interested in to enhance their gaming experience," a Sony representative said. "Fortnite is already a huge hit with PS4 fans, offering a true free-to-play experience so gamers can jump in and play online.

"With 79 million PS4s sold around the world and more than 80 million monthly active users on PlayStation Network, we've built a huge community of gamers who can play together on Fortnite and all online titles. We also offer Fortnite cross-play support with PC, Mac, iOS, and Android devices, expanding the opportunity for Fortnite fans on PS4 to play with even more gamers on other platforms."

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BonkDaCarnivore

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It's Fortnite. Who cares?

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solid_snake1461

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Edited By solid_snake1461

If you want to play with the PS4, x-bone or switch players, just buy one already. That’s how a normal, rational human being would do. Being butthurt and rage talk about not being able to play with other console ain’t help. Like, did someone point a gun at your head and force you to buy a specific console when you’re choosing one? No, that decision is yours and yours alone. Learn to be responsible for what you did.

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spectreXr1

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@solid_snake1461: it's not just cross play . You can't take your progression either . I can play on Xbox switch and PC and keep all my stuff but if I want to play on my ps4 I have to start over . That's trash

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solid_snake1461

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@spectrexr1: well, imagine if you live in 2 different countries. You buy a house in one country and then you’re automatically granted a similar one in the other country. Ideal, right? But guess what? That kinda of utopia can only exist in the mind of those lazy, no education, no job leechers that live on their parents’ money. Real world is a much more cruel reality you have to face and accept. You can’t come crying to mama whenever things go sour and expect it to be magically solved.

Also, far as I’ve heard, the progression in this game is cosmetic only. Whether you have a fresh account or one with a mountain of flashy clothes, including your favorite chicken hat, it doesn’t affect your chance to win one bit. And if you’re only playing the game to farm those flashy cosmetic, instead of because it was fun and entertaining, you should just quit playing all together. Go buy a land, grow potato or whatever you want. At least then, you’re helping yourself and the economy. Instead of wasting time and electricity doing these pointless stuffs.

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spectreXr1

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@solid_snake1461: guess u don't know what's going on . It's more than a coat or chicken in the game . U pay for that stuff that money . But the real issue is if u play fortnite on switch ...then take your acct to Xbox u can do that .if u log into a PS4 even once u can no longer use your acct anywhere else period ever again. So Sony is keeping your epic acct locked. So everything you bought on that acct can't be used anywhere and that's the issue

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chad28_69

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No way. Really? Nobody would guess so. What is this article for?

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lostn

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Edited By lostn

This is the guy who dared a hacker to hack his game server. They accepted the challenge. He was forced to resign. He might be just a tad bitter about it.

It is about money, but in another way. I don't think it's DLC sales because games where there aren't any aren't allowed to be cross play either. And they do allow cross play, just not with other consoles.

They don't want their players to play with people on other consoles for a number of reasons (giving up control of the online experience to competitors or third parties being one of them), but the chief reason is they want to sell more consoles.

The PS4 has doubled the sales of XB1 (estimated). If there's a group of 9 of you who want to play Destiny 2 together, and 3 of you have XB1s while the other 6 have PS4s, without cross play, either 6 of you will have to convince the 3 Xbox owners to buy a PS4, or the 3 Xbox owners will have to convince the 6 PS4 owners to buy an Xbox. Which do you think is more likely? Of course it's easier to convince 3 people to buy a console than 6. With this arrangement they stand to make 3 PS4 sales in your little circle of friends.

When cross play is enabled, they can all play together without anyone buying a new console. That's a loss of 3 potential hardware sales.

They're a business, and they're in it to make money. If they were behind and MS were in front, I'm pretty sure Sony would allow cross play. MS might not want to anymore though...

Phil offers cross play knowing that Sony is not going to accept it due to their market position. At worst he gets to look like the good guy and make Sony look like the bad guy, without actually having to do anything because he knows Sony will never accept the offer. If Sony lets them do it, Xbox owners get a much bigger pool of players to play multiplayer with when the servers start to look empty. It's a win-win for Phil in the game of politics.

I'm willing to bet Phil does not even bring up the topic if Xbox was outselling PS4 2-1 though.

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adayinverse

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@lostn: The reason he gave matches up with the same reasoning other devs have experienced. Warframe, for example, were only allowed a PC>PS4 transfer a single time. While they initially said this was due to needing patches across platforms to line up, that later changed. It's now due to the same thing Smedley said; people who transfer aged PC accounts to PS4 are people who *aren't* buying plat and other packs through the PS store.

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lostn

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@adayinverse: If that were true, they would not allow PS4 and PC cross play compatibility for that game either. But they offer it, just as they do for Fortnite.

Smedley is talking about cross play, being able to play online with people on other platforms. Sony allow this, just not with Xbox. Or Switch I guess. It's an Xbox thing, not a microtransactions thing. Otherwise they wouldn't do cross play with PC and mobile. That's a ton of money being bought on other stores and not PSN, but they're still ok with that.

They don't want to help Xbox, pure and simple. They want Xbox owners to buy a PS4 if they want to play with their PS4 friends. And this is the way it's always been. MS refused to allow cross play in previous gens and no one ever said a thing. Suddenly Sony look like the bad guy now because Phil has been grandstanding.

In this arrangement that Phil wants, only the loser has something to gain. The one who's winning would be doing the loser a favor by lending their player base to them for multiplayer when a game starts dying. Nintendo would have the most to gain from this. When Call of Duty was at its peak, there were only 300 players online on the Wii U, with PS4 and Xbox having 6 digits population online.

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Atzenkiller

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How exactly do you "accidentally activate cross play"? Is that game just an app that can run on any hardware without any adjustments and what other platforms you can play with can be changed just through a switch at any time?

Still, that comment from Sony doesn't make much sense. And who knows if that's what their leaders really said. But if they were concerned that people could use dlc crap they bought on the Xbone on their console, then why not just forbid them from doing so? Well, probably because there'd be an outrage because then there'd be cross play but you have to buy that stupid digital hat again if I want to use it on a different platform? People quickly forget about the great new thing that's been added once they've found something new to complain about.

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maitkarro

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@Atzenkiller: Most online games actually support cross play just within the engine alone, Unreal being one them, the feature is just disabled, among those features is also split-screen.

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xCael

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@Atzenkiller: the thing is, there is more ps4s out there and no tax for many people so in the end, more people may actually be buying the stuff on psn and using it on xbox and switch.

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jZangetsu21

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"We're always open to hearing what the PlayStation community is interested in to enhance their gaming experience"

And then you proceed to throw the finger at the community, nice.

The people at Sony are so two faced and money hungry.

Just like with backwards compatibility, for years we wanted PS2 games and they said it wasn't possible and then it was found that the PS4 has a built in PS2 emulator that runs code from PCSX2.

Wonder how many more excuses we'll get with regards to crossplay and backwards compatibility.

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lostn

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Edited By lostn

@jZangetsu21: Businesses are about making money first and foremost.

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jZangetsu21

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@lostn: I agree, but it kinda sucks that they blatantly lie and say backwards compatibility isn't possible when it actually is, they make us pay for online this gen and PSN is still bad, so where is that money going? They've raised the price of PSN twice for no reason.

I run my own company and I know that it's about making money but I value my clients, Sony doesn't care much, like most companies in fact. It's just a sad world we live in.

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lostn

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Edited By lostn

@jZangetsu21: I don't know if anything can be truly called 'impossible'. But it is a very difficult task to emulate the PS3 due to the complexity of the Cell processor. Maybe it can be done with a big investment of resources, but Sony decided that investing those resources into games instead would be a better option. Most people would rather play new games than old games they've already played.

BC is something people always say they want, but rarely actually use it.

https://www.usgamer.net/articles/new-study-finds-that-gamers-dont-really-use-backwards-compatability

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/06/backward-compatible-xbox-360-games-are-less-than-2-of-xbox-one-usage-time/

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/250579-everybody-always-claims-want-console-backwards-compatibility-doesnt-anybody-use

https://www.cinemablend.com/games/1601280/how-many-people-actually-use-xbox-one-backward-compatibility

Microsoft could not compete with Sony on new games, so their tack was to look at niches Sony was not fulfilling and offer it there. Those are things like cross play, BC, all first party games going to PC, game pass. It's a very competitive offering, but in my opinion, no substitute for games.

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games2525

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@jZangetsu21: i love sony but every time they are n1 they start doing things like that. On rhe other side when they were behind microsoft they tried to play the good guy for the players etc. and it worked for them.I like where spencer takes MS so next gen sony might just be my second sonsole for exclusives. Well see how they play out and deside....

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jZangetsu21

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@games2525: That's very true, maybe when next gen hits, Microsoft is going to do better and then Sony will care again xD

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lostn

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@games2525: Whoever is behind is always going to be more pro-consumer. When they get ahead, the hubris begins.

MS was ahead during the 360. Then we get an attempt at always online DRM, and no used games or lending, forced kinect at a $100 premium, and telling people who don't have the internet to stick to 360.

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letsgame82

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Edited By letsgame82

Haha using a statement of an ex Sony employee against Sony, very credible!! If this was a court case, his words would be worth sh*t. The funny thing about cross-play is that Sony wanted it a few gens back even did some games with PC but Xbox never wanted it and all of a sudden, Xbox and Nintendo are pushing for it, why!? Is it because their install base is significantly smaller and by adding PlayStation install base it would make their multiplayer matchmaking quicker!? Just a guess

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Atzenkiller

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@letsgame82: Good thing this isn't a court but a gaming/wrestling/whateverdumbshityouwannaadd site with lots of clickbait articles. These kinds of statements are only there for entertaiment.

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GabrielRocha86

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Sony is a b*tch

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moonwatcher99

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I love how Sony's statement basically translates as, "We have a sh*t-ton of consoles already running, why would you want to play with someone on another console?" Except if your buddy already has a Xbox One or a Switch and doesn't want to buy another expensive console, too bad for you. And they preface that by saying they want to hear what the gaming community wants. Yeah, right. This doesn't actually affect me at the moment, I don't play the game (yet), but I find some of these press statements hilarious.

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Jako998

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Clearly sony isn't interested in what gamers want.

For the players my Ass.

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Atzenkiller

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@jako998: It's just a PR slogan. Don't tell me you took it to mean anything.

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Jako998

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@Atzenkiller: trust me i know it is. But what sony is doing is ridiculous

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deactivated-5dd711115e664

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Can someone in the game my media please wake up and ask how they are legally able to block a third party account or email address from ever being used on another consol? Especially without informing the user of the risks? How much is a class action lawsuit going to cost them if people start pushing back? Console makers have been threatened with legal action for doing far less than this.

You all keep talking about cross play. Who cares? This “issue” is already handled in that if I buy vbucks on the PS4 version, those vbucks are not available on mobile. Which means money spent on PS4 stays on PS4 until used. After that, who cares? After the puChase is made it shouldn’t make any difference to Sony. They already got the money. And since they are easily The biggest console right now, the chances of people spending all their money on other consoles instead of PS4 seems stupid and unlikely. But if this is how Sony wants to do it, fine. If I have to create a new account to play on switch, Nintendo will just get all my Fortnite money moving forward and Sony won’t see another dime. How will that work out for them if money is their real concern?

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xCael

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@ZIMdoom: sony will be sued for this and they will lose. They have no right to block a third party account on another console, its not even something they could legally put in their TOS.

this will backfire on them.

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tenaka30

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@ZIMdoom:
"...how they are legally able to block a third party account or email address from ever being used on another consol?"

Easy. Breaching a contract is not illegal. No law is broken.

You could fight for loss of value though, or even claim you were misled by the terms. Good luck proving it though. Sony would simply say the account was created for use on their console.

As for the purchase being made not making any difference, of course it does. If you pay via PSN they get a slice of the cash. If you buy it on the MS Network and then use it on PSN, they get nothing. As the guy said it comes down to money every time.

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deactivated-5dd711115e664

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@tenaka30: that funny because I don’t recall reading anywhere in the terms and conditions that when I play Fortnite on PS4 is give up any and all rights to use the account elsewhere. I also don’t recall any notice that says any and all purchases made on the epic account are forever bound to PS4.

So again, how is this legal? How can Sony ban me from using a third party account on another console? What about people who don’t own a PS4 but play on PC and made the mistake of signing into their account on a friend or family members PS4 to play? They don’t own a PS4 but if they ever buy a Switch or Xbox they are screwed from ever using their PC Epic account on their own console. Again, without any notice or warning. Again, how is it legal to basically steal their account rights for a console they don’t even own?

FInally, what are the chances someone owns both a PS4 and Xbox and plans to play on both. What are the characters a PS4 owner will tear the switch as their primary console. Arguably, opening up rights to move your account, even if no cross play allowed, just balances out the purchases and it’s just as likely someone with another console will spend on PS4 as the PS4 owner will spend on another console. There is zero evidence someone with multiple consoles will spend all their money on the other console but not PS4. And again, it costs nothing for a console owner to let someone use skins purchased on another console.

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tenaka30

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@ZIMdoom: You read the terms? You actually read them? Top to bottom? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're either a liar, or that one person on the planet who actually reads that stuff.

But to the point, lets assume you have read them and thoroughly enjoyed every hour of doing so. Where in the terms did it say that purchases are NOT bound to the PS4? The problem is partly the assumptions you have over what you should have under the terms.

As I tried to highlight in my previous post you need to drop the word illegal. It doesn't apply. Sony could delete your account, your PSN account and wipe all history of you from their network and it would not be illegal. That's not how the law works. If someone from Sony came to your house and shot you, THAT would be illegal because there is a law that says you must not shoot someone. But there is no law that says Sony must make all of your purchases available on all platforms.

And that brings us to the actual issue at hand. Sony hasn't taken something from you, they have just not given you something that the other platforms have. Account sharing across multiple Console platforms is not the norm, it is the exception. Rant at them for not doing what the others are doing, but don't claim they are taking something from you when you never had it in the first place.

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deactivated-5dd711115e664

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@tenaka30: my youngest son wanted his own ps and epic account on PS4 after this situation went down. I told him he wouldn’t be able to play on switch and he was fine with it. So I had a chance to read the terms and conditions recently to make sure I was accurate.

But you are mistaken how these agreements works. Companies have gotten into trouble in the past for unfair and anti-consumer oriented agreements like this. Agreements where the company was not acting in good faith. This isn’t about “taking” something from me or anyway. This is about informed consent and knowing exactly what you are agreeing to. It is about the rights of the user which do still exist. And nowhere in the Sony terms and conditions or Epic account terms and conditions does it say you are exclusively to play on PS4.

You also didn’t address the problem caused by people who don’t even have a PS4 but play all the time on PC and unknowingly logged into their account once in a friends PS4. Those people are forever banned from playing on another console if they one day buy one. Imagine their anger and confusion and frustration. They are not ps owners or users and yet because they logged in once to play at a friends place they are forever banned from playing on their own console if/when they get one. Again, this is about he rights of users, informed consent when signing agreements and reasonable expectations. And arguably that is illegal on Sony’s part. Companies have certainly lost legal challenges over less.

Sure, Sony can change the terms and conditions as they see fit. So can your local bank. But arguably your bank cant just close your account and keep your money without providing reasons, notice and choices for you to respond. For example, give me the ability to end my agreement win Sony and switch my account to Switch. Oh wait. Can’t do that because reasons. No terms and conditions allow people to be held hostage like this without knowing consent and options to get out or appeal. Which is why I think this is by trouble Sony stumbles into our of stupidity. But maybe I’m wrong and this will go nowhere. I’ve created my own new switch account and Sony won’t see another dime from me for fortnite. Their loss. My kids who don’t have money can still play for free on the Ps.

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tenaka30

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@ZIMdoom: I'm fairly sure that I am not confused over how agreements work, as much as I am fairly sure that we weren't discussing how agreements work, and as much as I am fairly sure I made no claim regarding how they work.

My intial point was that your use of the word illegal was incorrect.

This IS about taking something away, or rather your perception that it is happening. How long have you been able to use your MS account to log onto Nintendo's network? Is the fact you cannot log onto one with the other something that either of them companies took away from you?

Recently Epic implemented the ability for their accounts to be shared across multiple platforms with one exception, PSN. This was something ADDED to the situation. The fact that PSN is not involved is not them having taken this ability AWAY from you, they just didn't get onboard with the other companies who ARE adding it.

It's great that this feature exists for those who enjoy the game, but this whining that not all companies are adding this new feature and the vilification of Sony for protecting their own interests has gotten out of hand.

Your example of a PC player logging into PS4 would work would it? Surely it works both ways if the account has been used elsewhere it cannot connect to PS4 I thought. It's worth noting btw, as has been also pointed out by a few but ignored by the masses, Sony doesn't own or manage the accounts either. Epic does. They will be following Sony's instructions regarding the blocking of course, but is it Sony or Epic who should make it clear how the account works at the point of failure you highlight?

Bank accounts and Console accounts are very different fish, you might have compared a car to your account and it would make as much logical sense. Bringing this point back to the one I actually made, and not your digression, changing the terms would not be illegal, but if they were changed unfairly, or caused you an unreasonable loss (in your example your bank balance) you could take them to court.

If you continue to have difficulty separating what is illegal and what is not, just ask yourself this question;

If xxxxxxx happened to me, could I call 999/911 and report it as a crime?

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deactivated-5dd711115e664

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@tenaka30: your notion that something isn’t against the law if you wouldn’t call 911 is extremely naive and is willfully ignorant of the countless lawsuits that occur every single day. You aren’t arguing from a position of fact but instead arguing syntax. Piracy is illegal. Copyright infringement is illegal. Patent infringement is illegal. Contract violations are illegal. Discrimination is illegal. Nobody calls the police over these issues, they call lawyers and sue. That’s how the law work, especially when dealing with businesses and abuses of power.

Look, I get your general point. I do. But when I bought minecraft for the PS3 then PS4 then Wii U, I knew I was buying an individual game. That purchases don’t carry over. I knew that going in and could make an informed decision. When i bought rocket league, I knew it was an individual purchase going in. That was made clear to me. However, I’m not aware of any other examples where I am completely locked out of playing a game on another console because Sony claims to have exclusive rights to my email address.

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tenaka30

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@ZIMdoom: The example was to simplify the explanation and open to varied avenues of nit-picking, and I feel it would be yet another digression to argue the finer details. Additionally you are correct about most if not all of it so it seems simpler to say I agree.

However, given you appear to understand what actually is and is not illegal, why do you still feel that Sony is breaking the law by applying what you consider to be unfair terms in a contract?

You still describe a situation where you are expecting Sony to act differently from the norm and yet consider it the norm, so I'm not sure you do get my point. At this late stage I am willing to accept this may well be down to my failing to explain it adequately.

Fortnite is one of the very few games that allows cross-play/account sharing over multiple platforms. It is a (relatively) new thing. So why is your expectation that your account would not be locked to Sony's platform? Why is the conclusion drawn by the vocal mass that Sony is taking something away from gamers rather than Sony is not giving as much as MS or Nintendo.

As for the email address aspect, again, personally I feel people should be looking less at Microsoft, and more at Epic. It's their system you authenticate with, and they make the decision whether to direct you down Microsoft's Freedom Motorway or Sony's Lockdown Country Road. They could easily implement an authentication system that redirects your account login based on the source of your connection. They could still isolate it preventing content sharing as per Sony's wishes but allow user to use the address elsewhere.

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@tenaka30: people are free to disagree with me, but to me this sounds like it runs against existing consumer protection rights and laws. It goes against anti-trust laws as well which are in place to ensure companies with lots of power aren’t able to abuse that power at the expense of others. Therefore I argue it is against the law, or more commonly known as being illegal. However, because the laws are vague about this issue, especially when it comes to videogames, the only way to know for sure is for here to be a legal challenge and for Sony to explain how they have a right to block this sort of thing AND how not doing so would harm them in some way.

As a more comparable example, think about legal cases where people are suing printer companies for locking down the printer if the ink is considered too old or not allowing you to print in black if yellow is too low. Think about lawsuits against Keurig for using advances in software and technology to stop consumers from buying the brand of kcups they want. These are things that are arguably “legal” in the sense that there is no clear and open law saying otherwise. This happens all the time and people challenge it in order to expose the illegality of it and often get the laws changed, or at least a legal precedent set for how the law should be interpreted given social and technological advances. Unfortunately often times companies are able to settle these cases in which case there is no clear ruling of legality, but it still means there is acceptance that some wrong was committed.

just because it is something new or recent doesn’t mean it is legal. Just because it hasn’t been challenged in court yet, doesn’t mean it doesn’t go against consumer protection laws or anti-trust laws. I maintain that I believe this is a violation of law and therefore is illegal. Only a court challenge will help us know for sure which is why I really hope some sort of class action is filed against them. I suspect Sony would lose, but that is just my opinion.

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@ZIMdoom: That would be one way of looking at it, biased heavily in your favour as it is. If I were asked to counter once again I would argue the previously accepted norm is exactly this, and that you are arguing it isn't. You'd be far better campaigning for it to be changed than claiming it is wrong in the first place. You would appear to have a much bigger task establishing wrong doing than that of the defence.

In the examples of your second paragraph I think you almost nailed it. Those cases settled out of court were not examples of illegal acts. If they were then the law would be required to address them. In almost all cases, usually the multitude we don't hear about, they are settled for reasons of avoiding publicity or further costs to one or both parties. I've sat in a number of Sales of Goods/Distance Selling Regulation disputes where exactly that happens. Both parties have agreed to cut their loses and grab what they can from the situation.

I would be interested to see this taken to court in honesty, I think it would be quite entertaining. I would encourage Sony's accusers to come up with a better argument though.

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#@tenaka30: I think where I mostly disagree with you is your position that because games in the past, or online purchases, were tied to a console, that makes it an "established norm" and therefore Sony has a right to block third party accounts from operating on other consoles. You make decent points, and you have a fair argument, but I disagree with it. To me, a third party account for a videogame automatically implies some level of saved progress carried outside the system. For a more direct example, what would you do if suddenly Netflix wouldn't play on other devices because you logged in and watched something on the PS4? And if you wanted to watch on other devices you were expected to start a new Netflix account and pay for another subscription. Surely you would say this is unfair, a rip off, and the fact you weren't notified of this risk in advance is unlawful.

Again, what about people who have played for countless hours on their PC, spent hundreds of dollars on the game, buy a switch or xbox, and are told they can't play. they realize they once logged into their epic games account on a friends PS4 and now their PC account will no longer work with their own console. How is this consumer not having their rights violated? I don't know how anyone can argue that this is legal for Sony to do in this example, but it is a real case. And if it isn't lawful for Sony to do without warning or notice in those situations, it's not lawful in any situation. It's really that simple. This has nothing to do with creating an account on or through a PS4. Simply logging in on a PS4 is enough to blacklist your account for other consoles and there is zero option to appeal to remedy this issue.

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@ZIMdoom: Your Netflix example falls a little flat unfortunately. I would WANT them to be multi-platform, but I wouldn't claim they OWE me it. But again your argument fails on the same point all over again. Netflix on multi-platform is the norm. If they changed it they would be taking something away from us. Cross-platform gaming is relatively new, existing in a select few titles here and there but still not fully multi-platform so for Sony to choose not to implement it is them choosing not to change something, they are not taking a feature away from you that you already had.

The following I find interesting and would like to understand it better;

"Again, what about people who have played for countless hours on their PC, spent hundreds of dollars on the game, buy a switch or xbox, and are told they can't play. they realize they once logged into their epic games account on a friends PS4 and now their PC account will no longer work with their own console."

Can they create a new account with a different email address and then start playing on the other platform? What is it about playing with that specific account that is so necessary to them.

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