.:: 2009 Hungarian GP Thread ::.

2009 HUNGARIAN GP

Welcome to the 2009 Hungarian GP Thread. cjek and mjk1 will keep the thread updated with the latest times as they happen.

RANDOM FACT

Built in about 8 months, the Hungaroring is the quickest-completed F1 circuit in history.

POINTS OF DISCUSSION

1. Given the updates for the Toro Rosso car, was it a smart move to remove Bourdais or not?
2. This is Felipe Massa's bogey circuit, with only one points finish (7th in 2006) in his six visits so far, with the cruelest of those visits taking place last year with his engine failure with just three laps to go. Can he turn that luck around this year?
3. Speaking of last year, Kovalainen was the man who ended up winning the race and becoming F1's 100th different GP winner. How well do you feel he's done in the past 12 months?
4. Does the Hungarian GP have a place on the Formula One calendar anymore?
5. Who of the current F1 drivers that have scored their debut win here had the best win in your opinion? Fernando Alonso, Jenson Button or Heikki Kovalainen?
6. Can the Brawns look to turn the tables back around on Red Bull this weekend?

SCHEDULE FOR WEEKEND

Friday 24
First practice: 1000-1130 (0900-1030 BST)
Second practice: 1400-1530 (1300-1430 BST)

Saturday 25
Third practice: 1100-1200 (1000-1100 BST)
Qualifying: 1400 (1300 BST)

Sunday 26
Race: 1400 (1300 BST)

WEEKEND WEATHER

FRIDAY: Sunny, Max 30 deg. cent.
SATURDAY: Sunny Intervals, Max 24 deg. cent.
SUNDAY: Sunny, Max 25 deg. cent.

PRESS CONFERENCE SCHEDULE

THURSDAY:Jaime Alguersuari (Toro Rosso), Robert Kubica (BMW), Kimi Raikkonen (Ferrari) and Mark Webber (Red Bull). 1PM BST.

FRIDAY:Stefano Domenicali (Ferrari), Norbert Haug (McLaren), Christian Horner (Red Bull) and Franz Tost (Toro Rosso). 2PM BST.

BBC PRESENTS THE HUNGARIAN GP

PREVIOUS SESSIONS
Friday Practice 1
Friday Practice 2
Qualifying
Race
Forum

1. Depends, Bourdais wasn't doing TOO badly BUT he was being largely outshined by his rookie team mate (who has not won anything as high up as Champ Car or GP2...)
2. Luck is a defining factor but not something to be counted on, I think Felipe should do well here this year the Ferrari has run well on low speed circuits AND at flowing circuits (Monaco, Silverstone) so he should get a result.
3. Mediocre. Never really shined although he has managed to keep his nose clean he hasn't done much more than race like Fisichella when he was at Renault - which is to say, slow and steady for the most part.
4. At least it's a purpose built circuit unlike some of the crap the teams race on. It's not the quickest or most spectacular circuit but a single lap of the flowing circuit is normally pretty awesome.
5. Alonso, the other wins were handed to them on plates. (Button's less so but he probably wouldn't have won had Kimi and Alonso not fallen off the circuit.)
6. Maybe, the circuit will probably be better suited to the Brawn thanks to higher temperatures which is something.

CIassic Hungarian GP's... haha, that's a funny one.

1986 | 1988 | 1989 | 1997 | 2006

Extended Highlights

1989

THE RED LIGHT

As we enter the Hungarian GP weekend, we sadly have to be reminded of the dangers that all these drivers face when they enter the cars, and questions are raised on the safety of these vehicles. Tethers are meant to keep the tyres of a vehicle in tact should a crash occur, but just in this year alone there have been numerous cases where this hasn't happened, and as a result a tragedy was soon to occur. It is a major shame that it was an up-and-coming young talent like Henry Surtees.

What makes this even more sad is that - given the speed of Clarke's crash into the barriers - the wheel should never have crossed the track at all. It shouldn't have even left the car. The problem we have is that this hasn't just occured in F2 either, there has been more than one incident in F1 this year too. Go back to the Australian GP, and the final few laps when Vettel collided with Kubica. When Kubica smashed into the barriers later on, one of his tyres came right off and bounced down the track. Luckily, there was no one around there at the time, so no one was in real threat, but the opening crash at the Spanish GP was a serious case, in which we were lucky that no casualties happened. It's a scary prospect when you think that just 4 years ago, Kimi Raikkonen's now infamous last lap suspension failure at almost 200MPH meant his tyre would come off, but that main difference? The tethers held the loose wheel on the car. It went nowhere but onto the nosecone of the car.

The question has to be then, why can a tyre remain on a car in a high-speed incident 4 years ago, yet nowadays we've had at least 4 incidents of a wheel coming off the car, the most recent of which causing the death of an 18 year-old? For now, we have to wait until the probe into the accident has concluded, but again the safety measures of the sport have to be questioned.

Aside from this, we take a look at the battle at the top between Red Bull and Brawn GP. Brawn themselves are adament that the problems of the past two races have all been related to temperature issues only, but also admit their rivals have made good steps forward in the battle. A new package, along with warm temperatures will be a boost for the Brawn team in the battle for victories yet again. Not to forget, this track was where it all began for Button, and he'll be looking to emulate what happened three years ago.

The man on fire right now though is Mark Webber. Denied a potential victory in Silverstone, the Australian finally did it after 130 races in Germany. The new found confidence within him is shining bright, and now Sebastian Vettel needs to worry. Vettel had the upper hand initially, but with Webber on a high now it's hard to see one or the other stepping back now. With them so close to each other as well, it's the same problem that Ferrari had last year: which driver goes forward to fight for the World Title when both are so close to each other?

Speaking of Ferrari, look for a strong performance... well, at least from one of the drivers. Massa has been on a high recently, scoring at every race since the Spanish GP, and whilst Raikkonen took a podium in Monaco (a track similar in characteristics to Hungary), he's almost become an invisible figure, as if he wasn't even there. Seems to be that this will be even more so for 2010 as things stand. But re-kindling the fight of the past two years will be McLaren. A fantastic upgrade for Hamilton in Germany only to be ruined by a puncture. A much more competitive car along with a circuit suited to the McLaren, and a chance for a strong result is possible - provided the rotten luck that seems to take place everytime does stop.

Toro Rosso couldn't have picked a worse time to get rid of Bourdais. There's half a new car for this circuit, and what do they do? Bring in a rookie who's never driven an F1 car before. Bourdais has dragged a Toro Rosso to good positions when it's been a decent car, so it was the wrong move to make in that regard. Still, it gives Jaime Alguersuari a chance to show off in his F1 debut, albeit a slim chance of some points - he'd have to qualify exceptionally well in order to make the kind of debut.

Another note: Keep an eye out for Heidfeld. Scoring two podiums in 2006 and 2007, the Hungaroring is quite a strong circuit for "Quick" Nick, and so if he can drag his BMW into the top 10 of qualifying, he could be in with a shout for a few points.

NOTE: My microphone has stopped working, hence the return of the text format of "The Red Light".

You're kidding me right? Rain on Saturday!

1. They should have waited until after the upgrades to decide whether to ditch him. He's not so bad that they should have dropped him before Hungary.

2. When Ferrari improve, so does everyone else. Massa is clearly the better driver now out of him and Raikkonen, so if either of them are going to score here it will be him. McLaren will be battling them for the rest of the season though.

3. Kovalainen isn't good enough to be at McLaren. A supporting driver at such a team should be able to score crucial points and act as a tactical pawn when the #1 driver needs it. Kovalainen's finishes last season provided no such assistance to either Hamilton, the team, or even achieved much himself. It certainly cost McLaren the chance of the constructors title last year, and perhaps made Hamilton's job of winning the title harder than it should have been. He simply didn't score enough points. He's a nice guy though, and can clearly drive well, but just not quickly enough.

4. Nobody except Eastern Europeans would miss the Hungarian Grand Prix. It's not quite as bad as Magny-Cours, however.

5. Definitely Alonso. It was a fantastic drive, and he lapped Schumacher of course. Button put in a solid drive, but without the most unlikely situation of Raikkonen, Alonso and Schumacher all suffering problems, he wouldn't have done it. A podium was definitely plausible though. Kovalainen also had a fairly good drive, but it was a total gift in the end.

6. Brawn can definitely improve here, I think enough that they could be fast enough for victory. I have a feeling McLaren will be quick too, so maybe they could be trying to get in on the action, especially at the start with their KERS.

For the purpose of being correct, Jaime Alguersuari's name is pronounced:

Heimi Al-gay-shuari

Could've at least made it easy.

For the purpose of being correct, Jaime Alguersuari's name is pronounced:

Heimi Al-gay-shuari

Could've at least made it easy.

Redders1989

Hey guys i'm back from my holidays. How time flies when your having fun and as a result i'm still reading up on Webbers maiden win and the next live F1 coverage is tomorrow.

On a more sombre note i only found out about Surtees accident this afternoon and would like to add my voice to the many who have offered there condolences and support to the family during this difficult time.

Good news!

... for Brawn GP fans. The rain on Saturday is no more now :)

.

That's Friday over, but where are Red Bull? Where are Brawn? McLaren and Williams are looking pretty good so far.

Another interview with Rubens Barrichello, and Barrichello reveals he received a call from Ross:

"Last time we spoke, you were unhappy, you touched upon that. Just explain what happened after that, did you speak to Ross? Did you apologise to the team? How did it work?"

"Well we had a meeting after the race to talk about the problems, some of the things were shown there but at that moment it's not clear to the team what has happened as well, I mean it's not crystal clear, so they went through some stuff and Ross called me on Tuesday, I was in America with the family and he actually called me quite early, it was around 6:30 in the morning there, but I took the call and he just said that he heard things that he didn't really want to hear, but he also said he said things he shouldn't have. It was a nice conversation and he touched on the thing that because I didn't have any personal problems, I should send a message, an E-Mail to the whole team and I did, and with all my heart I just said that I had no problems with the team as I never had, I had a frustration, not weekend because the weekend actually went quite well, but I had a frustrated race where I came out of the car after having [the] lead of some of the laps, I mean the first 15 and some more there in the middle of the race, and I finished 6th, and for me it was... that was very disappointing, I mean we should've finished - at least - 3rd, so it was frustrating... but things were resolved by the phone."

"And it wasn't just that, you also dropped to 4th in the Championship but it's very close still. Do you still see yourself as a contender?"

"Well I have to, you know I'm here for the love of the sport, but it is to win more than anything else. You ask me "why you haven't won just yet?", it's not like I don't care, it's the fact that I... it made me better, I'm a better driver, with all the problems and I just have to go for the next one. I cannot put pressure on myself, but things can be brighter and I'll keep on smiling and pushing, I think this weekend can be quite good, so I'm definately not putting any of the problems of the last race into this one."

"And just finally, how much do you need a win to secure something for next season?"

"Next season is too far away. Again, I say I love the sport, I've been doing this for 17 years... I have to see the FIA/FOTA dispute with everything... I mean, 95% of my feelings are to keep on. I love this, I have a lot of speed in myself, but 5% tells me "why [do] you need this?" It's something that bears on my mind as well even though it's only 5%... next year's too far away for me to say about."

I think Barrichello fears that he'll miss the sport, or that he'll feel rather 'empty' without F1. Stopping something you've been doing for 17 years would be very difficult indeed. No doubt, there will be a drive somewhere in 2010 for him, but he needs to start thinking about where, before the places are filled.

Anyway, here's the times for the final practice session of the weekend:

It's not been shown at all so far, so no idea what's going on...

UPDATE: From F1 time sessions:

Replays show Massa going straight on at Turn 4, suggesting some sort of brake failure.He has been taken to the circuit's medical centre.F1 Live Timing

BBC are stating that some sort of debris may have hit Felipe Massa on his head. Worrying given the Surtees story of last week if true, but there are tyre marks across the circuit so if so, Massa had some knowledge of what he was doing.

He made no attempt to steer away from the crash either. This is seriously worrying. Hope Massa is not ill affected health wise.

In other news, Bye bye Piquet methinks also Barrichello performs poorly and... something else informative is typed here!

Rumours from this set of comentators saying something MAY have hit Massa before the accident... :S hope it's not another Henry Surtess...

No more replays from my stream.

Session restarting at 15.10. (4mins time)

Eddie Jordan states Massa has been struck on the chin and was temporarily concussed which is, at the moment, the alleged cause of the accident.

Rubens Barrichello had a damaged rear suspension at the end of Q2. It is still unknown whether the two incidents were related.

Confirmed, Q3 will start in 2 minutes. Massa will be air-lifted to Hospital.

UPDATE: Massa WAS hit in the head by some form of debris. It looks a rather sizeable piece, and Massa took a big blow from it.

Here it is:

Confirmation of the qualifying results:

And now with no times, the only person we know in the top 10 for certain is Massa in 10th. No one knows who is where, but people seem to say Alonso has pole, but I believe that is the times before the system went down, so I'm not certain.

CONFIRMED: Fernando Alonso is on pole. Vettel 2nd, Webber 3rd, Hamilton 4th, Rosberg 5th, Kovalainen 6th, Raikkonen 7th, Button 8th, Nakajima 9th and Massa 10th.

ARGH! :evil:

James Allen says on Twitter that Massa is apparently okay after a medical examination. Here's the replay of the collision:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nIBmQrbEN0

I've also come across a rather graphic photo just after the incident. It shows the extent of the damage done to the crash helmet and what appears to be a cut above Massa's left eye. As it appeared in the video, it also confirms that the visor was broken by the impact. I won't post it here, unless people really want to see it.

I don't know what procedure is on head injuries, and whether he'll start tomorrow's race. Obviously it is now too late to use a replacement driver anyway. Unbelievable that this has happened just 1 week after another helmet collision. They are so rare, and then 2 in a week.

UPDATE: Felipe Massa will not race tomorrow      James Allen On F1

Thanks BBC.

Why is it impossible to find GP2 anywhere? So much better when it was on Eurosport :(

Rubens Barrichello has tweeted this message (Translated from Brazilian):

"people I am on the way of the hospital to visit Felipe... we are going to do a quite positive thought for him ok"

Ferrari may be allowed to use either Badoer or Gene under the rules of "force majeure":

During a season each team will be permitted to use four drivers. Changes may be made at any time before the start of the qualifying practice session provided any change proposed after 16.00 on the day of scrutineering receives the consent of the stewards.

Additional changes for reasons of force majeure will be considered separately.Article 19-1 of the Sporting Regulations

Update on Massa's condition, from Ferrari:

Budapest , 25th July 2009 - After the accident during the qualifying session of the Grand Prix of Hungary , Felipe Massa was airlifted to the AEK hospital in Budapest . Felipe was conscious at the arrival at the hospital and his general conditions remain stable. Following a complete medical examination it emerged that he had suffered a cut on his forehead, a bone damage of his skull and a brain concussion. These conditions need to be operated on after which he will remain under observation in intensive care.

:(

I've lost the original link, but other sources now report the same: Autosport

All the best to Felipe, he's a great guy and I hope he makes a quick and full recovery.

Jonathan Noble posted the following on Twitter:

"Have just spoken to Barrichello about the Massa incident. He thinks after the events of Brands Hatch and today, something has to be done"

An interesting thing I found in an article that I remembered about after talking to Kip:

Both the shell and visor are penetration tested. For the shell, a 4KG metal spike is dropped onto the helmet; for the visor, a one-gram lead pellet is fired at three points, at a velocity of up to 323mph. Should any penetration occur, the helmet fails.F1 Racing Magazine - April 2009

I don't think that the collision between Massa's helmet and the debris was more than 323mph, so we may possibly be looking at a helmet failure as well here.

BARRICHELLO URGES WORK ON F1 SAFETY

Rubens Barrichello and Lewis Hamilton believe something needs to be done to improve safety in Formula 1 following Felipe Massa's accident at the Hungarian Grand Prix.

Ferrari driver Massa was hit in the head by a flying piece of debris and the Brazilian suffered a damaged skull as a result of the impact.

Although Massa survived the incident, it came less than a week after F2 racer Henry Surtees was killed when a flying wheel hit him during a race at Brands Hatch.

Barrichello feels the two accidents were not a coincidence and he insists something needs to be done about it.

"I honestly don't believe in coincidence in life," Barrichello said. "Things happen for a reason and I think this is the second message. Imola [1994] was a message. The cars were improved. Unfortunately we lost a boy, which is tremendously sad.

"It is not a coincidence that something happened right now. In the GPDA (Grand Prix Drivers' Association (GPDA) we talked quite a lot about it yesterday - and something needs to be done. Yes. Absolutely."

He added: "We need to sit down and have a look at it. I think the cars are a hell of a lot safer, really a lot safer. But there is no coincidence on this fact that something that needs to be looked at."

World champion Hamilton agreed with Barrichello that drivers need to discuss the situation to get something done.

"During qualifying I saw the crash. It's very scary, and I do hope he is okay," said Hamilton. "It has to be a big shock for any driver to have that happen, and very unfortunate because rarely do you see it happen.

"On the positive side, with the GPDA and the FIA, they seem to have made a good step with safety. If you look at Heikki's crash, he went under the barrier there in Barcelona, whereas here the barrier did quite a good job.

"I believe things happen for a reason, and for two incidents to happen in such a short period of time, we can't ignore it.

"We've got to make sure we learn from it, and improve if we can."

Massa's team-mate Kimi Raikkonen, on the other hand, said the accident was just an unfortunate occurrence and he reckons there is little to do to avoid it.

"It is just an unlucky situation what happened today," he said. "It could have happened two years ago, or it could happen five years ago.

"The cars have an open cockpit so there is always the chance that something can hit it. It is not the first time that someone has been hit and unfortunately sometimes drivers get very badly hurt or die. It is part of the risk in motor racing. For sure Felipe was very unlucky today and hopefully will be okay, but you cannot get rid of that issue.

"You would need to make a rule for a bullet proof window in front of you to get rid of that issue. It is just unfortunate that these things happen sometimes."

SOURCE: Autosport

Unconfirmed car weights:

These are the confirmed weights, looks same as your cjeck, just in pole order.

Pos  Driver                             Weight (kg)
 1.  Alonso       Renault                637.5
 2.  Vettel       Red Bull-Renault       655.0
 3.  Webber       Red Bull-Renault       652.0
 4.  Hamilton     McLaren-Mercedes       650.5
 5.  Rosberg      Williams-Toyota        654.0
 6.  Kovalainen   McLaren-Mercedes       655.5
 7.  Raikkonen    Ferrari                651.5
 8.  Button       Brawn-Mercedes         664.5
 9.  Nakajima     Williams-Toyota        658.0
10.  Massa        Ferrari
11.  Buemi        Toro Rosso-Ferrari     671.5
12.  Trulli       Toyota                 671.3
13.  Barrichello  Brawn-Mercedes         689.0
14.  Glock        Toyota                 679.2
15.  Piquet       Renault                667.7
16.  Heidfeld     BMW-Sauber             658.0
17.  Fisichella   Force India-Mercedes   680.5
18.  Sutil        Force India-Mercedes   683.5
19.  Kubica       BMW-Sauber             666.0
20.  Alguersuari  Toro Rosso-Ferrari     675.5

AUTOSPORT