Australia sues Valve

Valve is getting sued by Australia itself over the refund policy of Steam.

Good. About time someone called them out on their anti-consumer bullshit.

don't know why no one else has done this

Australia in a nutshell, but the reason why no-one else has "sued" valve is because most consumer laws dont have a "i dont like it, i can return" §§, So not even physical shops actually have to accept returns, they do it though but thats only because most consider it part of standard customer service

And i love how much you link to IGN Ride :D

Surprised this didn't happen sooner. As much as people go on about Steam being so great, there's a lot they desperately need to improve on.

I just learned in american law, you only get consumer protection only if something doesn't work as it's suppose to. That doesn't mean the product has great or above par, it just has to function the way it's suppose to. Of course, this only the basic and when dive deeper it get more confusing and strange.

Ya, thats the case in most consumer laws, they have protection if the product doesn't work or something goes wrong, but a case of "i just dont like it" they have no legal obligation to take the item back, again most do it anyways because its part of what most consider customer service :)

Australia in a nutshell? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

The same thing as "only in America" suggest.

Um, ok then... Must be a bad thing that the Aus government is standing up for it's citizens consumer rights. Got it.

I didn´t say it was a bad thing, but everyone knows that Australia have some of the most strict (anti)consumer laws

From what I understand about US law you are not buying anything. Instead you are pay for the right to use the software. Also steam is a service and have the right to shut your account down.

We have that aswell, yet my country hasn't sued them

Norway have a law that states that you can return anything without any other reason then "i dont like it" ?

yup, with electronic devices we at least have 3 days. Some even offer 30 days

I managed to get a refund for X-Rebirth late last year.

I live in Australia. Kinda wish the process of trying to get a refund didnt involve so much back and forthing, though.

I do think something like a 2 day return policy wouldn't be bad for Steam.

Free rentals, yea!

They better implement something like that

Eh, the ACCC isn't the Australian Government. They're an independent regulatory body established to enforce the Australian Consumer Law.

Anyway, what they're doing makes sense. Interesting to see that they're going for most of the remedies: "The ACCC is seeking declarations, injunctions, pecuniary penalties, disclosure orders, adverse publicity orders, non-party consumer redress, a compliance program order and costs."

I wonder if this will compel Valve to set up an office over here?

I hope Valve loses this, when EA is doing a better job to the consumers you need to check your stuff

There are many many reasons for one to dislike Valve and this is so low on the list. I understand that this is Australian law but no company allows the return or refund of digital license purchases. This is what MS was trying to do and everyone freaked out. There is a reason why free demo exist and people should utilize the resource.

I don't know why no one is doing this, even if it is cheap

Firstly, "Australia" isn't initiating this lawsuit.

Secondly, online sales targeted towards Australian users are typically deemed to be sales that take place within Australia. Sales that take place in Australia fall under the regulations of the Australian Consumer Law. The fact that Valve operates out of the USA is most likely to be irrelevant, as far as Australian courts are concerned. Whether or not they'll be able to enforce some of their orders is another matter.

Oh, and thirdly, it isn't a class action lawsuit. It's a consumer watchdog acting on the complaints of a few local users.

@jimmy_russell: but they operate in Australia, they are therefore responsible and under Australian law. If you deliver a product you are under that country's rule

If the sales take place within Australia, then Valve would be required to offer refunds according to the provisions Australian Consumer Law.

Previous Australian cases relating to online sales suggest that these sales *do* take place within the Australian jurisdiction - and it's even more clear-cut when Valve offers a separate store page for Australian users, with region-specific prices and sales. Either way, if the matter was obviously unsubstantiated, they'd never bother to run this case. From the perspective of someone with an Australian law degree and who completed a graduate diploma elective on consumer law last week (although, note that I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice, etc.) - it certainly seems like a strong enough case to argue.

As for directing complaints to third-party owners, I don't think that's relevant. Suppliers of goods and services in Australia (computer software falls under the category of "goods" under the ACL, while Valve's subscription model would most likely be a "service") are required to make certain guarantees about the goods and services they supply, and they are required to offer refunds in certain circumstances where those guarantees are breached. Issues *can* potentially be raised with the original manufacturer of those goods (the developers), but if you're simply looking for a refund, you go back to the store that you bought the goods from (Steam).

*edit* And as for Steam pulling out of Australia over this...I don't really see it happening. The money they'd lose for refunding majorly faulty games (which is something they informally do anyway) would presumably be far outweighed by the money they make charging us $90 for new releases.

As I said earlier:

I'm not an expert on international law. I'd imagine that there are treaties out there that allow US courts to recognise some Australian court judgements, but I couldn't say for sure. In any case, Valve would take a hit to their reputation if they simply ignored a a judgement made against them.

Law is over user agreements. That's why it's law

Let see if valve loses then it would need to come up with a refund system and lose money through free rental off their site or shut down Australia.

The worse part is that this is like wanting to sue a restaurant because they do not have refunds for food you ate.

Well it more like wanting to sue a dog walker because they refuse to give a refund after they walked your dog.

Uh, no. They'd only have to offer refunds on games that are irreparably broken or falsely advertised.

We want them refunds...or one hour trials :D

No, this is the first step to clean up the hell-hole that is the gaming industry as of late (well really since forever, but it has went off the scales lately).

You can buy piece of software and just through some driver incompatibility issues you will get crap performance, and you are not legally obliged for a refund since it's "working". Game companies can release products in a catastrophic state, and they are still deemed as a "working product". Imagine if a car firm put out a car whose gas pedal would jam up (nudge nudge, wink wink), they'd have to refund/fix everything. A game company can just give two shits and go make the next game.

I don't agree with refunds for "not liking" a game, but I certainly agree there should be an ability to claim at-least a partial refund if the game has performance issues on your device or is severely buggy. With Steam this is pretty easily trackable, an in-game FPS counter would give Steam the data how your game is performing and if the FPS aren't at least at a stable 30, you can claim a 50-75% refund. (of course you'd have to go down to the lowest graphical settings and still have performance issues before claiming a refund). With bugs there could be a system where everyone reports bugs and at a certain threshold the game is certified as just plain broken and everyone can claim a 50-75% refund. The refund would probably be just tallied towards your next purchase on Steam, but still, it would prevent game companies from release the kind of shit they do lately.

THey would have to do the same here

Like what I read about with steam and WarZ?

Valve just needs to be a little more sensitive to these issues and take care of their customers respectfully. I'm not saying they dont, but this industry is too competitive and fast changing to not handle with care, every negative pr event whether justified or not.

Here's an update on this matter:

"The ACCC is asking that Valve:

– Provide an email address that specifically deals with refunds as per Australian Consumer law.

– Provide a 1800 number to help consumers address any refund issues.

– Provide a PO Box address for consumers to deal with refunds.

– Appoint representatives (the ACCC refer to this person as a contact officer) to reply to consumers regarding refunds.

If the ACCC is successful, Valve will have to implement these changes within 30 days of the court order."

"In a separate statement, Valve has already informed us that it plans to co-operate on the issue. “We are making every effort to cooperate with the Australian officials on this matter,” said Doug Lombardi. So it appears possible the ACCC will get what it wants in this case."

So...yeah, the ACCC's demands seem completely reasonable, and it looks like Valve will agree to them (or at least find a happy middle ground).