Dark Souls difficulty.

I think in a few areas it's too hard, but in most it's just right.

It starts off challenging (because the game doesn't give you much of a clue where to go or what to do), then becomes quite easy by about the half-way mark.

At certain points I feel the game dips It's toe into "unfair" territory *cough* curse *cough*, but these are rare situations.  Aside from those few sticking points, I felt the game was pitch perfect for what it was trying to do.  Rarely do you die without understanding what you did wrong, and have a better understanding of how to not die next time.

Though for the record, I felt Demon's Souls was harder.  Maybe that's just me though.

Difficulty and challenge in Dark Souls is done just right. You'll get your stuff handed to you at some point, but everything in DS is overcome with a healthy combination of patience, caution, and preparation. After your first clear of the game, you will be absolutely flying through sections that stumped you before.

The only time the game just gets cheap for the sake of being cheap is your buddies in Anor Londo. And curses are'nt that bad either. There's always a few Purging Stones available from the female Undead Merchant, and in most cases you have more than enough time to move away before your curse status fills up. A lot of people get stumped because they're so used to objective markers and tutorials in games. You don't get much of that in DS, and it can be jarring for some people to not have set path to go to. (As a Metroid fan myself, I welcome the nonlinearity.)

I don't think curses are too unfair. What I would say is really unfair are the Anor Londo archers. Those guys stink.

I don't think curses are too unfair. What I would say is really unfair are the Anor Londo archers. Those guys stink.

Froyo101

IIRC they did somewhat soften the curse effect in a patch.  Not much, but I believe they adjusted the resist rating for it, and possibly adjusted how severe the HP reduction was.  Though don't quote me on that.

It seems everyone but me had a hard time with the Londo archers.  Maybe It's because I was playing a more agile character?  Or maybe it was 1 of the 5 times I was actually able to get another player into my game.

I don't think curses are too unfair. What I would say is really unfair are the Anor Londo archers. Those guys stink.

Froyo101

I'd say "hard" simply because even when you know what you're doing it can still be very tricky at times.

I think in a few areas it's too hard, but in most it's just right.

Froyo101

Dark Souls isn't difficult in a traditional sense. It's difficult because it requires caution, patience, spacial awareness and above all else common sense.

So it's a strategy and thought over reflexes and skill for the most part. Apply yourself in those ways and the PVE aspects of the game slowly but surely cave in to your efforts.

Do they still knock you back even if you parry them?

It's perfectly correct, since that's what the developers were going for.

[QUOTE="Froyo101"]

I think in a few areas it's too hard, but in most it's just right.

Leejjohno

Dark Souls isn't difficult in a traditional sense. It's difficult because it requires caution, patience, spacial awareness and above all else common sense.

So it's a strategy and thought over reflexes and skill for the most part. Apply yourself in those ways and the PVE aspects of the game slowly but surely cave in to your efforts.

This is what I prefer from games that feature higher levels of difficulty. I didn't die a whole lot in Demon Souls because I don't mind playing a game cautiously and being deliberate in my actions. I really enjoyed The Witcher 2 for the same reasons; that game can be very challenging if you don't utilize Geralt's abilities and skills to their fullest for nearly every battle.

I just could never fully get into the Souls games, but it was in no part because of some fault in the game's design or the level of difficulty. 

i've died plenty of times, but i wouldn't say that makes it too hard. death makes some of the systems work (summoning, messaging, regaining souls) and ties into the fiction. it also creates a natural tension and paranoia, keeping the player on their toes at all times. even apparent sneak attacks can be spotted by looking for little details or testing questionable spots. there's just one death that i don't like because, as far as i can tell, you can't avoid it. demon's souls had one too, but it was hidden really well and placed so that it had good purpose.

honestly, i would have liked the game much less if i wasn't dieing.

[QUOTE="Froyo101"]

I don't think curses are too unfair. What I would say is really unfair are the Anor Londo archers. Those guys stink.

keech

IIRC they did somewhat soften the curse effect in a patch.  Not much, but I believe they adjusted the resist rating for it, and possibly adjusted how severe the HP reduction was.  Though don't quote me on that.

That kind of stuff popped up in a lot of different places. I guess if you played the game before these patches, it was probably more difficult. I didn't have much of a hard time. It was perfect.

Difficulty is the least of Dark Souls problems.Lulekani

[QUOTE="Lulekani"]Difficulty is the least of Dark Souls problems.Al-Manyouk

[QUOTE="keech"]IIRC they did somewhat soften the curse effect in a patch.  Not much, but I believe they adjusted the resist rating for it, and possibly adjusted how severe the HP reduction was.  Though don't quote me on that.

JordanElek

That kind of stuff popped up in a lot of different places. I guess if you played the game before these patches, it was probably more difficult. I didn't have much of a hard time. It was perfect.

Yeah purging stones were rare pre-patch.  I don't think anything dropped them as loot, occasionally found them in the environment, and I believe the only npc that sold them was the priest at the top of the Undead Church.  So if you got cursed in a place like The Great Hollow without a purging stone, you were in a world of trouble.

Slightly off topic: Xbox Live has a sale on Dark Souls and the Atorias of the Abyss DLC.  I haven't played the DLC yet so I grabbed it up.  Anyone played it yet?  Looking for opinions if It's any good, since I know you cant even get into the new content till about 2/3rds the way into the game and I'll be starting over.

I love challenging games.

[QUOTE="JordanElek"]

[QUOTE="keech"]IIRC they did somewhat soften the curse effect in a patch.  Not much, but I believe they adjusted the resist rating for it, and possibly adjusted how severe the HP reduction was.  Though don't quote me on that.

keech

That kind of stuff popped up in a lot of different places. I guess if you played the game before these patches, it was probably more difficult. I didn't have much of a hard time. It was perfect.

Yeah purging stones were rare pre-patch.  I don't think anything dropped them as loot, occasionally found them in the environment, and I believe the only npc that sold them was the priest at the top of the Undead Church.  So if you got cursed in a place like The Great Hollow without a purging stone, you were in a world of trouble.

The undead merchant in the sewer sold them post-patch, apparently, but I attacked him when I first saw him (her?) because he's a freaking undead, and I never wanted to pay the price to forgive myself of that sin. Luckily I only got cursed twice in the whole game so it wasn't a big deal.

The undead merchant in the sewer sold them post-patch, apparently, but I attacked him when I first saw him (her?) because he's a freaking undead, and I never wanted to pay the price to forgive myself of that sin. Luckily I only got cursed twice in the whole game so it wasn't a big deal.

JordanElek

That would be why I had a hard time finding them, I did the same thing. :D  I saw her lurking around the corner before I walked through the door, not realizing she was behind the grate, and ran in swinging.

Yeah the price to forgive that sin from the priest is a bit steep, so I never got to see what she sold.

I'd say that the game has a steep learning curve rather than it being really difficult. 

I'd say that the game has a steep learning curve rather than it being really difficult. 

SirWander

This gets mistaken for difficulty because most games go out of their way to hold the player's hand. 

[QUOTE="SirWander"]

I'd say that the game has a steep learning curve rather than it being really difficult. 

Blueresident87

This gets mistaken for difficulty because most games go out of their way to hold the player's hand. 

I can agree with that to an extent for sure.  I would say that the learning curve never really stops though.  Sure you once you learn the basics things don't seem quite so impossible, but the game is always throwing new enemies at you with new attack properties and attack patterns.  Or throwing old enemies at you in new environments where you may have to change up your tactics.

I find most games don't typically do that, and tend to get easier as the game goes on because of it.  God of War and Dead Space are prime examples of being able to skate through an entire game with the first weapon you get or the first two combos you learn, ignoring every other weapon, equipment, ability, and consumable item you get.  In Dark Souls I was regularly swapping equipment based on the situation and using every consumable I could that would give me any advantage.

So yeah, I guess the fact that the game expects you to think, analyze, and adapt is why so many people get so caught up on how "difficult" it is.

It's simple trial and error in single player. Not difficult at all, just frustrating. Dark Souls, much like Demon Souls, feels rather vapid and unrewarding to me.Randolph

I can agree with that to an extent for sure.  I would say that the learning curve never really stops though.  Sure you once you learn the basics things don't seem quite so impossible, but the game is always throwing new enemies at you with new attack properties and attack patterns.  Or throwing old enemies at you in new environments where you may have to change up your tactics.

 keech

I totally agree with this, the difficulty is based around unfamiliarity. The second playthrough is significantly easier than the first because you're familiar with everything.

I would love to play DS but I just don't wana pay for it. I'm just not getting consistant information about what the game is like. Hey my local retailer is having a sale, 50% off Dark Souls Limited Edition. Just alil more incentive and I'm in.Lulekani

[QUOTE="Lulekani"]I would love to play DS but I just don't wana pay for it. I'm just not getting consistant information about what the game is like. Hey my local retailer is having a sale, 50% off Dark Souls Limited Edition. Just alil more incentive and I'm in.Randolph

It's also a $10 download on Xbox, unless that deal is over. Low risk. I wasn't sure if I'd like it, but I gave it a shot and loved it. It's one of my favorite games ever, and it changed the way I view games in a lot of ways.JordanElek

[QUOTE="JordanElek"]It's also a $10 download on Xbox, unless that deal is over. Low risk. I wasn't sure if I'd like it, but I gave it a shot and loved it. It's one of my favorite games ever, and it changed the way I view games in a lot of ways.Randolph

But the most impressive thing about Dark Souls is the pacing. Just when I was feeling tired of the environment or enemies, things would switch up. And then when even the small changes weren't enough to keep me interesting, the entire setting changed along with the enemy types, and it felt like an entirely new game. That moment was incredible and unforgettable, and it energized me enough to get to the end with ease.

By the end, I felt like I had grown as a player much more than my avatar had grown in terms of levels. Sure, he was much stronger than when he began, but my skill at the game had grown exponentially with very little direct instruction. Few games are able to accomplish something like that.

[QUOTE="Randolph"][QUOTE="JordanElek"]It's also a $10 download on Xbox, unless that deal is over. Low risk. I wasn't sure if I'd like it, but I gave it a shot and loved it. It's one of my favorite games ever, and it changed the way I view games in a lot of ways.JordanElek

By the end, I felt like I had grown as a player much more than my avatar had grown in terms of levels. Sure, he was much stronger than when he began, but my skill at the game had grown exponentially with very little direct instruction. Few games are able to accomplish something like that.

[QUOTE="JordanElek"]

[QUOTE="Randolph"] Both of those games have aspects I can certainly appreciate. Small things like the sound work. My armor clanking as I walk slowly with my shield raised through a poorly lit cave, seeing floating eyes staring at me from the blackness and not being sure what those eyes are attached to. It certainly has it's traits I like. But once I "got it" and realized the game's "challenge" was just trial and error, it lost all appeal to me, and I got none of the sense of satisfaction so many others get anymore. The games need more substance and finesse, imo.Lulekani

By the end, I felt like I had grown as a player much more than my avatar had grown in terms of levels. Sure, he was much stronger than when he began, but my skill at the game had grown exponentially with very little direct instruction. Few games are able to accomplish something like that.

The beauty of a game like this is if you get complacent, you die.  Leveling up in DS isn't like some major power boost, your avatar's power increases by inches as opposed to miles, and you have to choose what the inches go towards.  Strength to wield bigger weapons, Vitality to increase your health bar by a sliver, attunement to equip an additional spell, stamina to equip heavier gear?

In addition the games exp is also the games currency.  So you have to decide if pumping up a few stats a point or two is more useful than say, buying that shiny new sword from a merchant npc, or paying a blacksmith to upgrade your current armor with the upgrade materials you recently found.

In the end though, the ability to identify enemy attack patterns, use every tool available to you, and take advantage of enemy weak points far outweighs your avatars power level.

I don't consider myself great at games by any stretch but I managed to platinum Dark Souls twice (PS3 and PC). How? Patience and research. Knowledge is power in Dark Souls, not twitch skills. I'll never be able to do a 10 hit combo in a fighting game or have a postive K/D ratio in a multi shooter. But if I can beat Dark Souls and Demons Souls then just about anyone can, provided they are willing to take the time and learn how the game works.

[QUOTE="Lulekani"][QUOTE="JordanElek"]

By the end, I felt like I had grown as a player much more than my avatar had grown in terms of levels. Sure, he was much stronger than when he began, but my skill at the game had grown exponentially with very little direct instruction. Few games are able to accomplish something like that.

keech

The beauty of a game like this is if you get complacent, you die.  Leveling up in DS isn't like some major power boost, your avatar's power increases by inches as opposed to miles, and you have to choose what the inches go towards.  Strength to wield bigger weapons, Vitality to increase your health bar by a sliver, attunement to equip an additional spell, stamina to equip heavier gear?

In addition the games exp is also the games currency.  So you have to decide if pumping up a few stats a point or two is more useful than say, buying that shiny new sword from a merchant npc, or paying a blacksmith to upgrade your current armor with the upgrade materials you recently found.

In the end though, the ability to identify enemy attack patterns, use every tool available to you, and take advantage of enemy weak points far outweighs your avatars power level.

I was promised the samething in Bioshock Infinite and Mass Effect 3, I always found a way around it. Its kinda way I hate RPG's, they are my weakness, and exploiting Brute Force Techniques is kind of my specialty, I'm stubborn and persistant, thats why I don't buy RPG's and in extreme cases I make sure I don't have any of their achievements in my profile. The shame would ruin me. :'( . I can get DS for $19, but I don't know, Perhaps I'l wait for DS II. Lulekani

If you're talking DS for Xbox you can get it cheaper, It's on sale for $10 for Gold members this week, and DLC for it is also 50% off.  Comparing the "difficulty" of games like Bioshock and Mass Effect to Dark Souls, well....it would make anyone who has played through Dark Souls laugh....a lot.

A big reason is dying.  There's no real consequence to dying in ME or Bioshock (or most video games anymore).  Dying in Dark Souls has daunting repercussions:

1) If you were in "human form" you revert to your "undead" form.  When this happens you can no longer summon other players to help you in the game.  The only way to become human again is to use Humanity (a moderately rare resource) at a Bonfire (the games checkpoint and leveling hubs).

2) You lose all your Souls (the games currency you use to level up, upgrade gear, and buy items from merchants) and all your Humanity.  The only way to reclaim your lost Souls and Humanity is to fight your way back to where you died and select the glowing blood pool containing all your stuff.  If you die before you can do so, tough luck, you just lost all the souls and humanity you were stock-piling.

3) What makes this hard is that every enemy you already killed respawns (with the exception of bosses and a few "unique" enemies).

4) When in Human form, other players can invade your game and try to kill you at almost any time.  You have zero control of when/if this happens other than staying disconnected while you play.  The downside to that is you can't summon other players to help you and can't let yourself be summoned to help other players.

Combine this with the fact that most traps and large enemies will kill you in 2 hits and smaller enemies like to swarm you from multiple directions (sometimes while you're trying to avoid large enemies and traps), and you learn to be very careful very quickly.  Oh and the game auto-saves literally every 10 seconds or so.  So if you screw up, you can't just exit the game and reload it.

I could fire off another half dozen reasons why the challenge in Dark Souls is leagues beyond Mass Effect and Bioshock, but those are the prime examples.

[QUOTE="Lulekani"]I was promised the samething in Bioshock Infinite and Mass Effect 3, I always found a way around it. Its kinda way I hate RPG's, they are my weakness, and exploiting Brute Force Techniques is kind of my specialty, I'm stubborn and persistant, thats why I don't buy RPG's and in extreme cases I make sure I don't have any of their achievements in my profile. The shame would ruin me. :'( . I can get DS for $19, but I don't know, Perhaps I'l wait for DS II. keech

If you're talking DS for Xbox you can get it cheaper, It's on sale for $10 for Gold members this week, and DLC for it is also 50% off.  Comparing the "difficulty" of games like Bioshock and Mass Effect to Dark Souls, well....it would make anyone who has played through Dark Souls laugh....a lot.

A big reason is dying.  There's no real consequence to dying in ME or Bioshock (or most video games anymore).  Dying in Dark Souls has daunting repercussions:

1) If you were in "human form" you revert to your "undead" form.  When this happens you can no longer summon other players to help you in the game.  The only way to become human again is to use Humanity (a moderately rare resource) at a Bonfire (the games checkpoint and leveling hubs).

2) You lose all your Souls (the games currency you use to level up, upgrade gear, and buy items from merchants) and all your Humanity.  The only way to reclaim your lost Souls and Humanity is to fight your way back to where you died and select the glowing blood pool containing all your stuff.  If you die before you can do so, tough luck, you just lost all the souls and humanity you were stock-piling.

3) What makes this hard is that every enemy you already killed respawns (with the exception of bosses and a few "unique" enemies).

4) When in Human form, other players can invade your game and try to kill you at almost any time.  You have zero control of when/if this happens other than staying disconnected while you play.  The downside to that is you can't summon other players to help you and can't let yourself be summoned to help other players.

Combine this with the fact that most traps and large enemies will kill you in 2 hits and smaller enemies like to swarm you from multiple directions (sometimes while you're trying to avoid large enemies and traps), and you learn to be very careful very quickly.  Oh and the game auto-saves literally every 10 seconds or so.  So if you screw up, you can't just exit the game and reload it.

I could fire off another half dozen reasons why the challenge in Dark Souls is leagues beyond Mass Effect and Bioshock, but those are the prime examples.

About right, though class does play a significant part I think. I'm doing a sorcerer playthrough now (my last was a knight) and it seems significantly easier. I can drop enemies with my heavy soul arrows..although some enemies are a lot harder, if they won't getout of my personal space and let me shoot em down with the soul arrows (like those fast ninja like characters that cause you to bleed out). 

Hey what can you tell me about the character classes their not as redundant as Skyrim right ?Lulekani

[QUOTE="Lulekani"] Hey what can you tell me about the character classes their not as redundant as Skyrim right ?DJ_Lae

[QUOTE="DJ_Lae"][QUOTE="Lulekani"] Hey what can you tell me about the character classes their not as redundant as Skyrim right ?Lulekani

He's pretty much right, the classes are basically just starting templates to give you an idea of what you should be focusing on.  Though this really lets you design your own play style.  Though as you get further into the game, it becomes harder and harder to "swap" between entirely different builds.  The Soul cost to get your stats up high enough just gets too costly, and you start to spread yourself too thin.

I for example started with the Pyromancer, lots of strong attack spells, but with a limited spell list, most of which can be hard to come by unless you know where to look.  I quickly decided I didn't want to be stuck wearing rags and robes the entire game, so I focused on building up my Stamina so I could wear mid-range armor without moving like i'm perpetually stuck in knee-high mud.  Pyromancy being a close-range magic in the game, I also focused more on strength so I could actually do some damage with my sword. 

But my dexterity, vitality, and attunement suffered for it because I was forced to put most of my points into intelligence for magic, stamina for armor, and strength for weapons.  What this did was make ranged weapons like bows entirely useless for me, my health bar wasn't as large as some players, and I was very limited on how many spells I could equip at one time.

[QUOTE="Lulekani"][QUOTE="DJ_Lae"] Dark Souls' character classes are almost entirely meaningless - they're nothing more than preset starting stats and equipment. You can quickly change any of those classes into another or bounce around between being a melee warrior or a mage (though as you allocate skill points on leveling you probably won't want to jack of all trade your way through the game).keech

He's pretty much right, the classes are basically just starting templates to give you an idea of what you should be focusing on.  Though this really lets you design your own play style.  Though as you get further into the game, it becomes harder and harder to "swap" between entirely different builds.  The Soul cost to get your stats up high enough just gets too costly, and you start to spread yourself too thin.

I for example started with the Pyromancer, lots of strong attack spells, but with a limited spell list, most of which can be hard to come by unless you know where to look.  I quickly decided I didn't want to be stuck wearing rags and robes the entire game, so I focused on building up my Stamina so I could wear mid-range armor without moving like i'm perpetually stuck in knee-high mud.  Pyromancy being a close-range magic in the game, I also focused more on strength so I could actually do some damage with my sword. 

But my dexterity, vitality, and attunement suffered for it because I was forced to put most of my points into intelligence for magic. . . . . .

WHOA ! Doesn't that bother you ? I think Fallout 3 also did the samething where Intelligence was one of the characters attributes and could be upgraded. I can't deal with stuff like that. Mass Effect's Paragon/Renegade meter also got on my nerves, luckily it didn't interfere with the combat. Doesn't stuff like that rub you the wrong way ?Lulekani

Not at all.  There was nothing stopping me from putting more points into any of my lower stats, just I felt the way I played benefited more from other things.  There's also no level cap that I'm aware of, other than capping every single stat at 99.

There are no inherently wrong choices to leveling in DS.  Just wrong choices for any one player.  If you want to play a heavy armored character swinging around a huge greatsword for example, Dexterity is almost useless for you, but your Endurance and Strength will have to be very high to be able to wear the armor and swing the sword properly.  If you're NOT playing a character that is focused on using healing and protection spells, then the Faith stat is something you can ignore unless you want to use a divine weapon.

At no point did I ever feel it was impossible to beat a specific fight or enemy because of the choices I made in building up my character.  What kind of character you're playing may determine how you approach a fight.  As others have said, being able to identify enemy attack patterns and "tells" to see danger coming that split second before it gets to you is the difference between getting your face curb-stomped into jelly in a matter of seconds, and standing triumphant over a seemingly impossible boss fight.

[QUOTE="Lulekani"]WHOA ! Doesn't that bother you ? I think Fallout 3 also did the samething where Intelligence was one of the characters attributes and could be upgraded. I can't deal with stuff like that. Mass Effect's Paragon/Renegade meter also got on my nerves, luckily it didn't interfere with the combat. Doesn't stuff like that rub you the wrong way ?keech

Not at all.  There was nothing stopping me from putting more points into any of my lower stats, just I felt the way I played benefited more from other things.  There's also no level cap that I'm aware of, other than capping every single stat at 99.

There are no inherently wrong choices to leveling in DS.  Just wrong choices for any one player.  If you want to play a heavy armored character swinging around a huge greatsword for example, Dexterity is almost useless for you, but your Endurance and Strength will have to be very high to be able to wear the armor and swing the sword properly.  If you're NOT playing a character that is focused on using healing and protection spells, then the Faith stat is something you can ignore unless you want to use a divine weapon.

At no point did I ever feel it was impossible to beat a specific fight or enemy because of the choices I made in building up my character.  What kind of character you're playing may determine how you approach a fight.  As others have said, being able to identify enemy attack patterns and "tells" to see danger coming that split second before it gets to you is the difference between getting your face curb-stomped into jelly in a matter of seconds, and standing triumphant over a seemingly impossible boss fight.