David Jaffe blames poor sales on used sales and rentals. Valid?

On his Twitter page this morning, the famed game developer David Jaffe blamed April's poor sales on used game sales and game rentals. Is this a valid analysis?

If my memory serves me correct, there werent very many games (I cant think of any) that were very interesting. I know I havent purchased a new game in a while, but thats because there hasnt been anything that Ive really been wanting to play in the last month or so.

What are your thoughts? Is Jaffe's analysis of April's numbers valid, or is he just cranky?

On his Twitter page this morning, the famed game developer David Jaffe blamed April's poor sales on used game sales and game rentals. Is this a valid analysis?

If my memory serves me correct, there werent very many games (I cant think of any) that were very interesting. I know I havent purchased a new game in a while, but thats because there hasnt been anything that Ive really been wanting to play in the last month or so.

What are your thoughts? Is Jaffe's analysis of April's numbers valid, or is he just cranky?

nextgen2007

Make good games and people will buy them. There wouldn't be tons of used game sales if games were good and sales would be higher if people rented games and liked them. Make crap and sales will be crap.ericpol

That isn't always the case. Sometime crap does sell. Like that Iron Man 2 game that just got release, it's not too great, but it will sell well because of the name and the hype that surrounds it from its movie tie in.

[QUOTE="ericpol"]Make good games and people will buy them. There wouldn't be tons of used game sales if games were good and sales would be higher if people rented games and liked them. Make crap and sales will be crap.majadamus

That isn't always the case. Sometime crap does sell. Like that Iron Man 2 game that just got release, it's not too great, but it will sell well because of the name and the hype that surrounds it from its movie tie in.

What I don't understand is that for a game to be used, it had to have been sold as new at some point. The developer made their money.

I understand that the developers THINK that if a used game wasn't available, we'd buy the game new. And they would make that sale. But I'll tell you that there are many games that I would not spend $60 on, so if it wasn't available used, I simply would not buy it. Therefore, the developer still doesn't make money from me.

Its a problem relatively unique to video games. People oftne like to bring up movies, music, books, or cars when arguing about rentals/used games.

But the comparison breaks apart very quickly. All of those are well extablished businesses with multiple revenue streams panned out. Movies get money from multiple sources while games only get it form publishers. They make money at theater release. Again at pay-per-view. Again at dvd release. Again at rentals. Again at premium cable. Then at basic cable. Music and cars also have multiple steps of revenue.

Games have a single one: Release. Thats it. Sure, you'll get a rerelease, but thats fairly rare. And a retro release like Wii's VC is also rare and unreasoanble to expect condiering most of the rereleases are over 10 years ago.

If a game doesnt sell well at release thats pretty much it.

Rentals and used games hurt their one and only revenue stream. Thats why publishers are pushing for DLC and even EA's locking out multiplayer from used copies. They are trying to find additional ways to get money.

And giving the argument "oh they need to make better games" isnt really valid. That would be nice but great games and bad games are just as vulnerable to rentals and used games.

Now, im not blaming the consumer. I cant really blame someone whos just trying to save a few bucks. Converesly, i cant blame publishers and developers that are angry at used/rental models.

Yawn. Another scapegoating whiner. He forgot to blame piracy (even though it doesn't really exist on the PS3), that one always tugs the heart strings no matter how irrational and easily debunked it is.

Could it be that Jaffe grossly overvalues his work?

Rentals and used games hurt their one and only revenue stream. Thats why publishers are pushing for DLC and even EA's locking out multiplayer from used copies. They are trying to find additional ways to get money.

XaosII

These are also a means to provide free advertising. Those games on rental shevles had to be purchased by someone. The devs/publishers wind up getting more copies sold and free advertising to go along with it. I fail to see why this is a cause for Jaffe's pity party other than the sales numbers didn't meet his personal expectations or that he just plain takes it personally due to his cathedral sized ego.

If he doesn't like it, then he needs to go multiplatform and quit whining.

Well then, the videogame industry needs to find ways to make that money, not blame the people. Why don't the publishers sell their own used games? Why don;t they make contracts w Gamefly so that they make money off rentals? I mean, there are things the publishers can do. Besides crying, I mean.

Sorry Jaffe, I rented GoW3 instead of buying it. Worked out great for me. I would have bought it brand new if it was cheaper.

Sorry Jaffe, I rented GoW3 instead of buying it. Worked out great for me. I would have bought it brand new if it was cheaper.

Bigboi500

You realize of course this makes you a borderline thieving software pirate who is destroying Big Content industries.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

Sorry Jaffe, I rented GoW3 instead of buying it. Worked out great for me. I would have bought it brand new if it was cheaper.

QuistisTrepe_

You realize of course this makes you a borderline thieving software pirate who is destroying Big Content industries.

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

Sorry Jaffe, I rented GoW3 instead of buying it. Worked out great for me. I would have bought it brand new if it was cheaper.

Bigboi500

You realize of course this makes you a borderline thieving software pirate who is destroying Big Content industries.

Funny you should mention RATM. They feed at the same trough as Jaffe. Nothing screams revolution and "**** the man" louder and harder than cashing paychecks from Sony.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

You realize of course this makes you a borderline thieving software pirate who is destroying Big Content industries.

QuistisTrepe_

Funny you should mention RATM. They feed at the same trough as Jaffe. Nothing screams revolution and "**** the man" louder and harder than cashing paychecks from Sony.

To some extent it is fairly valid. That aside, you cant blame the consumers for renting or buying used games that would normally cost 60 dollars especially when half if not more of these games are not worth their price tag.

Maybe game sales are down simply because people just have enough money to keep up with the flood of new games. Its only been a few months since the holiday season and most of us are still trying to recover from the onslaught of new games back then. Since January alone I have bought Battlefield Bad Company 2, God of War 3, Darksiders, Splinter Cell Conviction and Tiger Woods PGA10. I purchased all of these games new and their are still a nice few that I would dearly love to have like MAG, Mass Effect 2, Red Dead Redemtion, and a few others. For the average gamer we would need about a $1000 in disposable income to keep up with todays industry. This forces gamers, especially those on a limited budget to be very selective about the games we buy. So when a games sales are down, do the developers ever stop to think that maybe the gamer had to choose which NEW title he or she bought. Or maybe the gamer walks into a store on a budget of $50 or $60 and instead of getting that one new game can get three or four used titles that they may have passed up on before.

I think its rediculous to the lack of new game sales on the used game market or on rentals. I think publishers should give developers time to make extremely great games and focus more on quality over quantity. I am sure most gamers our there would rather spend some extra time with one good quality game like God of War as oposed to sinking hours into all the sub par efforts like movie tie ins or bargain bin shovelware. Just my opinion but I think I have a valid point here. I am sure there were alot of games that didn't sell up to expectations last November because most players spent their money on MW2. Sure Assasins Creed 2 and Left 4 Dead 2 sold well, but I wonder how many more copies of those games would have been sold had it not been for the massive drive of MW2. See the point?

Spring sales can also be attributed to lack of marketing outside of the holdiay season. During Oct, Nov, and Dec games are given huge marketing budgets and are in your face in a constant basis. Games aren't pushed nearly this hard during the spring, summer months. I would think an industy proffessional like Mr.Jaffe can understand all these contributing factors If I can.

[QUOTE="XaosII"]

Rentals and used games hurt their one and only revenue stream. Thats why publishers are pushing for DLC and even EA's locking out multiplayer from used copies. They are trying to find additional ways to get money.

QuistisTrepe_

These are also a means to provide free advertising. Those games on rental shevles had to be purchased by someone. The devs/publishers wind up getting more copies sold and free advertising to go along with it. I fail to see why this is a cause for Jaffe's pity party other than the sales numbers didn't meet his personal expectations or that he just plain takes it personally due to his cathedral sized ego.

If he doesn't like it, then he needs to go multiplatform and quit whining.

I really dont get that argument. Especially for rental. Every game rented is not only money they did not make, its money that they *lose* providing support for the rentee.

Its like buying a free refill cup at a restaurant. Then after you are done you lend it to your friend at %25 the price, pocket the money, and repeat this 8 times. You're making money off the restaurant simply because you bought a cup once? yeah, i suppose its not illegal, but its pretty messed up to do.

Im not understanding your "free advertisement." They are losing money from it. Every time a player goes online in one of those games, they have to provide support: updates, patches, and online service. Sure MS, Sony, or Nintendo provide the majority of costs, but it doesnt come free for the publishers, either.

Personally, i cant stand Jaffe. Hes a whiny, bumbling idiot. But i dont think hes wrong in this case.

But i also dont think the consumer is wrong either. Hes just trying to save himself a few bucks.

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

[QUOTE="XaosII"]

Rentals and used games hurt their one and only revenue stream. Thats why publishers are pushing for DLC and even EA's locking out multiplayer from used copies. They are trying to find additional ways to get money.

XaosII

These are also a means to provide free advertising. Those games on rental shevles had to be purchased by someone. The devs/publishers wind up getting more copies sold and free advertising to go along with it. I fail to see why this is a cause for Jaffe's pity party other than the sales numbers didn't meet his personal expectations or that he just plain takes it personally due to his cathedral sized ego.

If he doesn't like it, then he needs to go multiplatform and quit whining.

I really dont get that argument. Especially for rental. Every game rented is not only money they did not make, its money that they *lose* providing support for the rentee.

Its like buying a free refill cup at a restaurant. Then after you are done you lend it to your friend at %25 the price, pocket the money, and repeat this 8 times. You're making money off the restaurant simply because you bought a cup once? yeah, i suppose its not illegal, but its pretty messed up to do.

Im not understanding your "free advertisement." They are losing money from it. Every time a player goes online in one of those games, they have to provide support: updates, patches, and online service. Sure MS, Sony, or Nintendo provide the majority of costs, but it doesnt come free for the publishers, either.

Personally, i cant stand Jaffe. Hes a whiny, bumbling idiot. But i dont think hes wrong in this case.

But i also dont think the consumer is wrong either. Hes just trying to save himself a few bucks.

Sorry friend, but I'm not buying it. This is no different than what the recording and motion picture industries have to compete with. For Jaffe to claim that rental services have the potential of hurting his numbers is completely irrational. What, the video game industry as a whole is now in serious peril because of the dying business model that is Blockbuster or the upstarts like Gamefly? The rental businesses have been around for decades and have provided video game rentals since the NES/Master System days and the video game industry has grown exponentially.

So why all of a sudden would it hurt Jaffe's wallet? Doubtful at best, sheer lunacy at worst.

Just look at Gamestop for crying out loud. This is an international retailer that makes its margin off of the secondhand market. So is Gamestop ruining gaming? Have people stopped buying new games? No. They trade in their old games and buy the new ones. Simple enough, everyone's happy. What Jaffe whines about is here laughably disingenuous. For there to have been secondhand copies of GOWIII, means that someone had to have purchased it in the first place.

Quit blaming the consumer. Game developers can be the worst at time, they act as if they're the fountain of knowledge and the lowly purchasers are sheep who need to be herded in the right direction. I know for me that April was a slow month and I didn't even buy anything that came out. I'm thinking of getting Fifa 10 World Cup but decided not to buy it since there are more important things I can spend my money on and I'm still playing Fifa 10 once in a while.

if a person loves a game they keep it.

if a person dont like the game or beats it and finds it boring or not worth having anymore they trade it in.

like few people said already in here if a game has so may of its title marked as used and theres very few new ones. that means that game mostly sucks.

and lets say that David excuse is vaild. think about it. wer in 2010 the US and the world been in a depression since late 2007 and still the economy is tanking even more. money is hard to make becuase job less or no one is hiring and wage cuts.

NO DUHH PEOPLE WILL BUY MORE USED GAMES THEN NEW GAMES MORON!

Sorry friend, but I'm not buying it. This is no different than what the recording and motion picture industries have to compete with. For Jaffe to claim that rental services have the potential of hurting his numbers is completely irrational. What, the video game industry as a whole is now in serious peril because of the dying business model that is Blockbuster or the upstarts like Gamefly? The rental businesses have been around for decades and have provided video game rentals since the NES/Master System days and the video game industry has grown exponentially.

So why all of a sudden would it hurt Jaffe's wallet? Doubtful at best, sheer lunacy at worst.

Just look at Gamestop for crying out loud. This is an international retailer that makes its margin off of the secondhand market. So is Gamestop ruining gaming? Have people stopped buying new games? No. They trade in their old games and buy the new ones. Simple enough, everyone's happy. What Jaffe whines about is here laughably disingenuous. For their to have been secondhand copies of GOWIII, means that someone had to have purchased it in the first place.

QuistisTrepe_

Again, you cant use music or movies. Their business models are completely different with several venues to get back income. Games have only one and thats the release. Rentals and used games hurt that, which wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't the only source of revenue. So they hurt the bottom line.

This is also not the first time he's made this argument. Its also far from the first time its been said. Even 10 years ago you've heard this argument before. But ballooning development costs makes it more difficult to recoup losses from games sold.

And yeah, Gamestop is the primary culprit of secondhand games. Its not illegal, but that doesnt necessarily make it right. Again, its like free refills. Buy a cup and sell it to your friend. You make the profit while the restaurant has to accomodate you and your friend at their loss. Its not illegal, is it?

I cant blame consumers for buying used games or renting. They're just trying to save a buck. But i cant blame the companies being angry because its profits they arent seeing for work thay've done that someone else is getting.

I dont recommend even bringing up the "they made at least one sale" point. Its teh same for piracy isnt it? At least ONE person bought the copy, so does that make it ok to share among 50 people?

Make good games and people will buy them. There wouldn't be tons of used game sales if games were good and sales would be higher if people rented games and liked them. Make crap and sales will be crap.ericpol

He just wants to make full price on every sale. what he is confused about is that the games that are rented and bought used cannot hurt his new game sales because those game are not the one he is selling! You cant buy a used game at game release - that makes no sense. He sounds like he's just puppeting Microsoft, with having a clue as to what he is talking about. I guess he just wants people to buy games, play them, and then throw them in the trash. What an idiot - a greedy, self-serving idiot at that.

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

Sorry friend, but I'm not buying it. This is no different than what the recording and motion picture industries have to compete with. For Jaffe to claim that rental services have the potential of hurting his numbers is completely irrational. What, the video game industry as a whole is now in serious peril because of the dying business model that is Blockbuster or the upstarts like Gamefly? The rental businesses have been around for decades and have provided video game rentals since the NES/Master System days and the video game industry has grown exponentially.

So why all of a sudden would it hurt Jaffe's wallet? Doubtful at best, sheer lunacy at worst.

Just look at Gamestop for crying out loud. This is an international retailer that makes its margin off of the secondhand market. So is Gamestop ruining gaming? Have people stopped buying new games? No. They trade in their old games and buy the new ones. Simple enough, everyone's happy. What Jaffe whines about is here laughably disingenuous. For their to have been secondhand copies of GOWIII, means that someone had to have purchased it in the first place.

XaosII

Again, you cant use music or movies. Their business models are completely different with several venues to get back income. Games have only one and thats the release. Rentals and used games hurt that, which wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't the only source of revenue. So they hurt the bottom line.

This is also not the first time he's made this argument. Its also far from the first time its been said. Even 10 years ago you've heard this argument before. But ballooning development costs makes it more difficult to recoup losses from games sold.

And yeah, Gamestop is the primary culprit of secondhand games. Its not illegal, but that doesnt necessarily make it right. Again, its like free refills. Buy a cup and sell it to your friend. You make the profit while the restaurant has to accomodate you and your friend at their loss. Its not illegal, is it?

I cant blame consumers for buying used games or renting. They're just trying to save a buck. But i cant blame the companies being angry because its profits they arent seeing for work thay've done that someone else is getting.

I dont recommend even bringing up the "they made at least one sale" point. Its teh same for piracy isnt it? At least ONE person bought the copy, so does that make it ok to share among 50 people?

The game companies already got their money when the product arrived in the stores. Developers can choose to go multiplatform. Multiply that by the world over and that is a pretty big opportunity. The music and film examples still apply. Why you ask? Because I can record them or rip the streams and keep a copy for myself, that's why. I can watch the programs on TV for free, I can stream them online for free, I can listen to music on the radio for free. So how are the recording and motion picture industries excluded again?

You said it yourself, "even 10 years ago you've heard the same argument," and yet the gaming industry surpassed Hollywood several years ago in terms of revenue. Your argument doesn't hold water when taking this into account. You point out the concept of multiple revenue streams for music and film, but why then are they trailing interactives so much?

Again, all the industries face the same obstacles, which makes Jaffe look like a feeble, petty whiner.

By this time in the PS2s, life, I believe 80 million PS2s had been sold.

How many PS3 s have been sold so far?

That might have something to do with it.

Just look at Gamestop for crying out loud. This is an international retailer that makes its margin off of the secondhand market. So is Gamestop ruining gaming? Have people stopped buying new games? No. They trade in their old games and buy the new ones. Simple enough, everyone's happy. What Jaffe whines about is here laughably disingenuous. For their to have been secondhand copies of GOWIII, means that someone had to have purchased it in the first place.

QuistisTrepe_

I agree on the bold text here. Not everyone got the money to buy every new game that comes out every few months. People buy a game then play it and then resell it for maybe 50% of the price, then they use that money pluse a little more money and buy a new game for 60$. The People that buy the used game will do the same, if they got tired of that game and think that its not worth to keep it, then they'll sell it and use that money to buy other games.

I don't really think that they lose much money from resell/rente game. Just because people stop buying used game doenst mean that they'll buy the new game for 60$. Actually I think they will buy much lesser. Like students they can't use much money on game and need to save it for food ect. and if games is too expensive then people just buy them less and lesser.

Game Company just realized that you can get alot more from their game no matter how buggy it is. Just look at MW2 Maps Pack for 15$. People will buy, no matter the price or how buggy their game is as long as they got a "good" name for that game. Game Company just want more and more money and no one will EVER get enough money. They'll go as far as they can untill consume say "stop thats enough!" but I don't think that many people realized that they've been cheat all the time.

What I think Game Company should do insted of cry about rented/used game.

1. Don't releases 100 (you know what I mean :P) of games every year, take their time and make a good game insted.

2. Make something that its worth to keep the game. Something like the good story, Cool character that you'll remember or maybe a book/comic with the game.

3. Maybe low the price a little 40-50$ seem fine to me.

Btw I only buy used game if I can't find the new game anyway else.