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#1 Judge-Correct

Member since 2013 • 55 Posts

Thy was't recently playing a few games on both and I started looking at thine games with pre-renders and FMV cut scenes like FF and MM games and certain action games on the saturn. Thy have noticed, maybe it was just random luck, but thine seemed that the Saturn FMV and pre-rendered where more cleaner and crisp, and thou colors were not thaine tainted or washedout and seemes to be much higher quality. Thy also noticed that FMV on Saturn is more fluid, making thine look less than a slide show of pictures.

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#2 Emerald_Warrior

Member since 2008 • 6581 Posts

It all comes down to how well a game is ported. If it's a bad port, it's gonna look bad on either system.

However, in my experience with both systems, I've found the PS1 does better at FMV/cutscenes. A lot of the Saturn games I've seen have that pixelated "boxes" look to it that detracts from the look of it.

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if youre talking about the quality of FMVs, PS1 has a more consistent quality, as it has hardware decompression techniques for the FMVs, which means developers can get a near identical result on their FMVs, if an FMV looks worse, its usually due to the source material as opposed to the console. on the Saturn , there is no hardware decompression , only software or uncompressed, which means that the decompression is only as good as the software written by the developer (techiques like cinipak and Truemotion were commonly used), if its uncompressed, the FMV has to lose quality in order to fit on the disc. thats why the Saturn has a whole range of examples, ranging from something like Rampo , which is awful ( it looks like a Mega CD game with more colours) , to something like Burning Rangers which is very sharp looking (easily PS1 quality), with most Saturn games somwhere inbetween.

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#4 Judge-Correct

Member since 2013 • 55 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]if youre talking about the quality of FMVs, PS1 has a more consistent quality, as it has hardware decompression techniques for the FMVs, which means developers can get a near identical result on their FMVs, if an FMV looks worse, its usually due to the source material as opposed to the console. on the Saturn , there is no hardware decompression , only software or uncompressed, which means that the decompression is only as good as the software written by the developer (techiques like cinipak and Truemotion were commonly used), if its uncompressed, the FMV has to lose quality in order to fit on the disc. thats why the Saturn has a whole range of examples, ranging from something like Rampo , which is awful ( it looks like a Mega CD game with more colours) , to something like Burning Rangers which is very sharp looking (easily PS1 quality), with most Saturn games somwhere inbetween.

What about Pre-renders, or is it thine same?

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Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

[QUOTE="Judge-Correct"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"]if youre talking about the quality of FMVs, PS1 has a more consistent quality, as it has hardware decompression techniques for the FMVs, which means developers can get a near identical result on their FMVs, if an FMV looks worse, its usually due to the source material as opposed to the console. on the Saturn , there is no hardware decompression , only software or uncompressed, which means that the decompression is only as good as the software written by the developer (techiques like cinipak and Truemotion were commonly used), if its uncompressed, the FMV has to lose quality in order to fit on the disc. thats why the Saturn has a whole range of examples, ranging from something like Rampo , which is awful ( it looks like a Mega CD game with more colours) , to something like Burning Rangers which is very sharp looking (easily PS1 quality), with most Saturn games somwhere inbetween.

What about Pre-renders, or is it thine same?

by pre renderd you mean pre renderd FMVs? or backgrounds a la Resident Evil FMVs are obviously going to be the same as any other , backgrounds are something different, I can't think of them being any different, and Ive never really seen examples of it. , save for maybe the console's video output, although I do remember the backgrounds in RE looking slightly better on the Saturn.

11 years ago

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#6 Judge-Correct

Member since 2013 • 55 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Judge-Correct"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"]if youre talking about the quality of FMVs, PS1 has a more consistent quality, as it has hardware decompression techniques for the FMVs, which means developers can get a near identical result on their FMVs, if an FMV looks worse, its usually due to the source material as opposed to the console. on the Saturn , there is no hardware decompression , only software or uncompressed, which means that the decompression is only as good as the software written by the developer (techiques like cinipak and Truemotion were commonly used), if its uncompressed, the FMV has to lose quality in order to fit on the disc. thats why the Saturn has a whole range of examples, ranging from something like Rampo , which is awful ( it looks like a Mega CD game with more colours) , to something like Burning Rangers which is very sharp looking (easily PS1 quality), with most Saturn games somwhere inbetween.

What about Pre-renders, or is it thine same?

by pre renderd you mean pre renderd FMVs? or backgrounds a la Resident Evil FMVs are obviously going to be the same as any other , backgrounds are something different, I can't think of them being any different, and Ive never really seen examples of it. , save for maybe the console's video output, although I do remember the backgrounds in RE looking slightly better on the Saturn.

Yes, Backgrounds, Spirties, effect, etc.

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Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

[QUOTE="Judge-Correct"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Judge-Correct"] What about Pre-renders, or is it thine same?

by pre renderd you mean pre renderd FMVs? or backgrounds a la Resident Evil FMVs are obviously going to be the same as any other , backgrounds are something different, I can't think of them being any different, and Ive never really seen examples of it. , save for maybe the console's video output, although I do remember the backgrounds in RE looking slightly better on the Saturn.

Yes, Backgrounds, Spirties, effect, etc.

backgrounds are not the same as sprites and effects, totally different things. I think the backgrounds in RE are really just simple picture files overlaid over a grid which restricts where you can and can't go .

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#8 Judge-Correct

Member since 2013 • 55 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Judge-Correct"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] by pre renderd you mean pre renderd FMVs? or backgrounds a la Resident Evil FMVs are obviously going to be the same as any other , backgrounds are something different, I can't think of them being any different, and Ive never really seen examples of it. , save for maybe the console's video output, although I do remember the backgrounds in RE looking slightly better on the Saturn.

Yes, Backgrounds, Spirties, effect, etc.

backgrounds are not the same as sprites and effects, totally different things. I think the backgrounds in RE are really just simple picture files overlaid over a grid which restricts where you can and can't go .

Can't you pre-render some areas of sprites?

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Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

[QUOTE="Judge-Correct"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Judge-Correct"] Yes, Backgrounds, Spirties, effect, etc.

backgrounds are not the same as sprites and effects, totally different things. I think the backgrounds in RE are really just simple picture files overlaid over a grid which restricts where you can and can't go .

Can't you pre-render some areas of sprites?

of course not.

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#10 Judge-Correct

Member since 2013 • 55 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Judge-Correct"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] backgrounds are not the same as sprites and effects, totally different things. I think the backgrounds in RE are really just simple picture files overlaid over a grid which restricts where you can and can't go .

Can't you pre-render some areas of sprites?

of course not.

But thou can do it with models right? Final Fantasy 7, aren't the motions and magic pre-rendered on the models themselves?

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#12 Darkman2007

Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

[QUOTE="Judge-Correct"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Judge-Correct"] Can't you pre-render some areas of sprites?

of course not.

But thou can do it with models right? Final Fantasy 7, aren't the motions and magic pre-rendered on the models themselves?

no , these are real time. there is no "pre renderd effect" , unless its an FMV clip , all pre renderd is really just visuals that were done on some high end workstation , recorded and then put into the game, the console isn't actually doing anything regarding the rendering.

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Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="Judge-Correct"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] of course not.Darkman2007

But thou can do it with models right? Final Fantasy 7, aren't the motions and magic pre-rendered on the models themselves?

no , these are real time. there is no "pre renderd effect" , unless its an FMV clip , all pre renderd is really just visuals that were done on some high end workstation , recorded and then put into the game, the console isn't actually doing anything regarding the rendering.

Just out of curiosity: are you a game developer?

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#14 Darkman2007

Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Judge-Correct"] But thou can do it with models right? Final Fantasy 7, aren't the motions and magic pre-rendered on the models themselves?GreySeal9

no , these are real time. there is no "pre renderd effect" , unless its an FMV clip , all pre renderd is really just visuals that were done on some high end workstation , recorded and then put into the game, the console isn't actually doing anything regarding the rendering.

Just out of curiosity: are you a game developer?

of course not, the most I got to was spending one year at university studying computer science, before realizing its not for me. why?

11 years ago

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#15 Judge-Correct

Member since 2013 • 55 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Judge-Correct"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] of course not.

But thou can do it with models right? Final Fantasy 7, aren't the motions and magic pre-rendered on the models themselves?

no , these are real time. there is no "pre renderd effect" , unless its an FMV clip , all pre renderd is really just visuals that were done on some high end workstation , recorded and then put into the game, the console isn't actually doing anything regarding the rendering.

Ah, but one person abovest hath stated Saturn games have rectangle pixels in some MV and pre-renders, that is true, is that caused by the rectangle polygons that the Saturn uses? If so, then isn't thine Saturn machine itself outputing the pre-renders?

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#16 Darkman2007

Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

[QUOTE="Judge-Correct"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Judge-Correct"] But thou can do it with models right? Final Fantasy 7, aren't the motions and magic pre-rendered on the models themselves?

no , these are real time. there is no "pre renderd effect" , unless its an FMV clip , all pre renderd is really just visuals that were done on some high end workstation , recorded and then put into the game, the console isn't actually doing anything regarding the rendering.

Ah, but one person abovest hath stated Saturn games have rectangle pixels in some MV and pre-renders, that is true, is that caused by the rectangle polygons that the Saturn uses? If so, then isn't thine Saturn machine itself outputing the pre-renders?

lol, I think Im going to ignore this question , if I keep on answering any more silly questions, I will get rather bored.

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Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] no , these are real time. there is no "pre renderd effect" , unless its an FMV clip , all pre renderd is really just visuals that were done on some high end workstation , recorded and then put into the game, the console isn't actually doing anything regarding the rendering.Darkman2007

Just out of curiosity: are you a game developer?

of course not, the most I got to was spending one year at university studying computer science, before realizing its not for me. why?

I just asked because you seem extremely knowledgable about game development.

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#18 Darkman2007

Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]
Just out of curiosity: are you a game developer?
GreySeal9

of course not, the most I got to was spending one year at university studying computer science, before realizing its not for me. why?

I just asked because you seem extremely knowledgable about game development.

then I guess between the university , having a parent involved with the IT industry , having my own PC at a young age (and actually caring whats in it), among other things helped.

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Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] of course not, the most I got to was spending one year at university studying computer science, before realizing its not for me. why?Darkman2007

I just asked because you seem extremely knowledgable about game development.

then I guess between the university , having a parent involved with the IT industry , having my own PC at a young age (and actually caring whats in it), among other things helped.

Well, since I'm somebody who doesn't know sh!t about all this stuff, it's pretty interesting to read.

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#20 Judge-Correct

Member since 2013 • 55 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Judge-Correct"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] no , these are real time. there is no "pre renderd effect" , unless its an FMV clip , all pre renderd is really just visuals that were done on some high end workstation , recorded and then put into the game, the console isn't actually doing anything regarding the rendering.

Ah, but one person abovest hath stated Saturn games have rectangle pixels in some MV and pre-renders, that is true, is that caused by the rectangle polygons that the Saturn uses? If so, then isn't thine Saturn machine itself outputing the pre-renders?

lol, I think Im going to ignore this question , if I keep on answering any more silly questions, I will get rather bored.

I just heard that you could increase visuals from animations and sprites with thine pre-rendered pictures overtop of it, but I guess that information is corrupted. But serious about thine square pixels, no other system has the gltch but the Saturn so does that actually have to do with how the Satur from polygons?

11 years ago

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#21 Darkman2007

Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]
I just asked because you seem extremely knowledgable about game development.
GreySeal9

then I guess between the university , having a parent involved with the IT industry , having my own PC at a young age (and actually caring whats in it), among other things helped.

Well, since I'm somebody who doesn't know sh!t about all this stuff, it's pretty interesting to read.

meh , I don't consider myself that clever or knowlegable, at least I don't think I am. forgot to add in regards to this topic , is that obviously the Saturn has the optional VCD card, and games that used it had superior video to the PS1 by quite a bit , since its MPEG , though obviously the limited selection of games that use the VCD card make it worthless for most people.

11 years ago

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Member since 2012 • 8161 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] of course not, the most I got to was spending one year at university studying computer science, before realizing its not for me. why?Darkman2007

I just asked because you seem extremely knowledgable about game development.

then I guess between the university , having a parent involved with the IT industry , having my own PC at a young age (and actually caring whats in it), among other things helped.

you okay man? You seem bothered today

11 years ago

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Member since 2011 • 817 Posts

I wonder how the Saturn would've stacked up if the mpeg/vcd card was utilized more.

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#24 Judge-Correct

Member since 2013 • 55 Posts

I wonder how the Saturn would've stacked up if the mpeg/vcd card was utilized more.
Exceed20XX

Otr if thou Sega bundled the Ram cart with each box, and force devs to use it.

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#25 Darkman2007

Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

[QUOTE="rilpas"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"] then I guess between the university , having a parent involved with the IT industry , having my own PC at a young age (and actually caring whats in it), among other things helped.

you okay man? You seem bothered today

not at all , does it seem aggressive in any way? it certainly wasn't meant to be.

I wonder how the Saturn would've stacked up if the mpeg/vcd card was utilized more.
Exceed20XX

probably not much , for it to be used more, it would have to be popular, and it wasn't the VCD card's primary reason wasn't necessarily for games, but obviously for Video CDs, which were not popular outside some parts of east Asia , simply because in terms of quality they were not any better than VHS (in some cases worse) , personally I would have rather seen the RAM cartridge pushed more, especially given it wasn't even released in the west.

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Member since 2011 • 817 Posts

Yet there were artifacts of its use in a western release or two funny enough. I know Marvel Super Heroes could use the RAM cart if you had it (I actually did) and I think Gungriffon supposedly retained MPEG data which was utilized from the VCD cards. I actually have one which came with my system but I've barely ever got to test it.

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#27 Darkman2007

Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

Yet there were artifacts of its use in a western release or two funny enough. I know Marvel Super Heroes could use the RAM cart if you had it (I actually did) and I think Gungriffon supposedly retained MPEG data which was utilized from the VCD cards. I actually have one which came with my system but I've barely ever got to test it.
Exceed20XX

its interesting, the Japanese version of Gungriffon is compatible with the MPEG card, but apparently the western versions had the MPEG movie taken out for a while I was on the lookout for a JVC Twin operator for the Saturn , a JVC made MPEG card that could also display Photo CDs , though the relatively high price and uselessness of it kept me away. if more games had the video quality there was in Soviet Strike or Burning Rangers ,there would have been no need for the MPEG card.

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Member since 2011 • 817 Posts

[QUOTE="Exceed20XX"]
Yet there were artifacts of its use in a western release or two funny enough. I know Marvel Super Heroes could use the RAM cart if you had it (I actually did) and I think Gungriffon supposedly retained MPEG data which was utilized from the VCD cards. I actually have one which came with my system but I've barely ever got to test it.
Darkman2007

its interesting, the Japanese version of Gungriffon is compatible with the MPEG card, but apparently the western versions had the MPEG movie taken out for a while I was on the lookout for a JVC Twin operator for the Saturn , a JVC made MPEG card that could also display Photo CDs , though the relatively high price and uselessness of it kept me away. if more games had the video quality there was in Soviet Strike or Burning Rangers ,there would have been no need for the MPEG card.

I heard it was kept in but not accessible, do you have a source by chance? I was actually curious about testing it at some point down the road. Also I'm curious about the card you mentioned, can you show me what it looks like by chance?? I have a sneaking suspicion it's the one I may be using...

11 years ago

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#29 Darkman2007

Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Exceed20XX"]
Yet there were artifacts of its use in a western release or two funny enough. I know Marvel Super Heroes could use the RAM cart if you had it (I actually did) and I think Gungriffon supposedly retained MPEG data which was utilized from the VCD cards. I actually have one which came with my system but I've barely ever got to test it.
Exceed20XX

its interesting, the Japanese version of Gungriffon is compatible with the MPEG card, but apparently the western versions had the MPEG movie taken out for a while I was on the lookout for a JVC Twin operator for the Saturn , a JVC made MPEG card that could also display Photo CDs , though the relatively high price and uselessness of it kept me away. if more games had the video quality there was in Soviet Strike or Burning Rangers ,there would have been no need for the MPEG card.

I heard it was kept in but not accessible, do you have a source by chance? I was actually curious about testing it at some point down the road. Also I'm curious about the card you mentioned, can you show me what it looks like by chance?? I have a sneaking suspicion it's the one I may be using...

sadly I do not have a source for the first question, but this is the Twin Operator, apparently there are some variations of it too. segaretro.org/File:Saturn_RG-VC2-1.jpg of course Hitachi also made its own VCD card, which was bundled with the Hitachi Saturn (remember Hitachi , JVC and Samsung all made licensed Saturn clones)

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Member since 2011 • 817 Posts

[QUOTE="Exceed20XX"]
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] its interesting, the Japanese version of Gungriffon is compatible with the MPEG card, but apparently the western versions had the MPEG movie taken out for a while I was on the lookout for a JVC Twin operator for the Saturn , a JVC made MPEG card that could also display Photo CDs , though the relatively high price and uselessness of it kept me away. if more games had the video quality there was in Soviet Strike or Burning Rangers ,there would have been no need for the MPEG card.Darkman2007

I heard it was kept in but not accessible, do you have a source by chance? I was actually curious about testing it at some point down the road. Also I'm curious about the card you mentioned, can you show me what it looks like by chance?? I have a sneaking suspicion it's the one I may be using...

sadly I do not have a source for the first question, but this is the Twin Operator, apparently there are some variations of it too. segaretro.org/File:Saturn_RG-VC2-1.jpg of course Hitachi also made its own VCD card, which was bundled with the Hitachi Saturn (remember Hitachi , JVC and Samsung all made licensed Saturn clones)

Yup, that's the one I have. The Twin Operator name/nickname threw me off for a moment.

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#31 BarbaricAvatar

Member since 2006 • 1000 Posts

I don't think the hardware makes any difference, especially when it comes to FMV.

On either system it'll be compressed and/or downsized in order to fit the space available. If it's good FMV then less space has been taken for the game, and vice versa.

---

"Pre-rendering is the process in which video footage is not rendered in real-time by the hardware that is outputing or playing back the video. Instead, the video is a recording of a footage that was previously rendered on a different equipment (typically one that is more powerful than the hardware used for playback)."

Via wikipedia.

---

So again; makes no difference as to the architecture of the Saturn or PS1, just how much disc space was put aside for the video-sequence.

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#32 Darkman2007

Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

I don't think the hardware makes any difference, especially when it comes to FMV.
On either system it'll be compressed and/or downsized in order to fit the space available. If it's good FMV then less space has been taken for the game, and vice versa.
---
"Pre-rendering is the process in which video footage is not rendered in real-time by the hardware that is outputing or playing back the video. Instead, the video is a recording of a footage that was previously rendered on a different equipment (typically one that is more powerful than the hardware used for playback)."
Via wikipedia.
---
So again; makes no difference as to the architecture of the Saturn or PS1, just how much disc space was put aside for the video-sequence.
BarbaricAvatar

wrong, one has hardware based decompression , the other doesn't , that intself makes the difference between the two

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#33 BarbaricAvatar

Member since 2006 • 1000 Posts

[QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]
I don't think the hardware makes any difference, especially when it comes to FMV.
On either system it'll be compressed and/or downsized in order to fit the space available. If it's good FMV then less space has been taken for the game, and vice versa.
---
"Pre-rendering is the process in which video footage is not rendered in real-time by the hardware that is outputing or playing back the video. Instead, the video is a recording of a footage that was previously rendered on a different equipment (typically one that is more powerful than the hardware used for playback)."
Via wikipedia.
---
So again; makes no difference as to the architecture of the Saturn or PS1, just how much disc space was put aside for the video-sequence.
Darkman2007

wrong, one has hardware based decompression , the other doesn't , that intself makes the difference between the two

But that would still depend on the level of compression and the size of the video being compressed. As in screen resolution.

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#34 Darkman2007

Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]
I don't think the hardware makes any difference, especially when it comes to FMV.
On either system it'll be compressed and/or downsized in order to fit the space available. If it's good FMV then less space has been taken for the game, and vice versa.
---
"Pre-rendering is the process in which video footage is not rendered in real-time by the hardware that is outputing or playing back the video. Instead, the video is a recording of a footage that was previously rendered on a different equipment (typically one that is more powerful than the hardware used for playback)."
Via wikipedia.
---
So again; makes no difference as to the architecture of the Saturn or PS1, just how much disc space was put aside for the video-sequence.
BarbaricAvatar

wrong, one has hardware based decompression , the other doesn't , that intself makes the difference between the two

But that would still depend on the level of compression and the size of the video being compressed. As in screen resolution.

only for one of the consoles, on PS1, the hardware decompression means that developers can get very similar results in regards to compression and data loss (or hopefully lack of it) , on Saturn every FMV is going to be different because its software based, ie , only as good as the code running it.. and in both consoles btw, as far as I remember, videos are 320X240 (actually most games ran at the resolution during gameplay too , save for the occasional puzzle or fighting game), so in terms of resolution there is usually no difference , the difference is going to come from how the files are compressed, and the Saturn has a disadvantage in this area.

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#35 Darkman2007

Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

Soviet Strike was a good example of a good Saturn FMV

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUOdPZrBDKg

the person who filmed this pointed a camera at the TV ,and as you can see, its full screen and actually quite clear.

on the other hand, Lunar is an example of a lackluster FMV

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a91cZmpbDU

and this is actually how it looks on a TV , not full screen and kind of pixelated, mysteriously Lunar 2 has some of the best FMVs on the Saturn , right up there with Soviet Strike (still not quite as good as the PS1 FMV , but close enough.)

11 years ago

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Member since 2003 • 25 Posts

There is some confusion here since pre-rendered graphics have "sorta" been used for sprite based rendering on occasion. Donkey Kong Country for the SNES is a good example of this. The game is still using basic sprites, but those sprites and all their animation sequences were first pre-rendered on a high end workstation to get better quality. What happens in more advanced consoles like the 32-bit era was when we started performing real-time 3d graphics rendering. Some of these games still used sprites, but the sprites were scaled and rotated in real-time to give them more interesting animations (like the zooming in and out on some 2d fighting games). In fact many 3d games had tons of sprites thrown in to save computational horsepower. Things like trees and lamp posts in a racing sim might actually be 2d and simply scaled larger as you get closer to them, because these objects move to quickly you would never even notice. The cars themselves, mountains, the road etc are all in 3d since they require perspective rendering to look proper. Back to the whole FMV debate, it was mentioned that the PSX had a hardware decoder, basically the main cpu was capable of reading certain file formats and decoding them on the fly much faster than "software" decoding. Think of it like your 3d card in your PC. You could play high-end video games using just your CPU, however most of us have an addon card meant to handle all the heavy 3d graphics rendering since it would be too much to do it all on the main cpu. In reality all it is is just another device to speed things up. If you ever noticed, the PSX usually had full screen high quality FMV, whereas the Saturn almost always downsampled it to a lower resolution and often left various graphic artifacts on screen such as pixelation and so forth.

11 years ago

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