Dishonest? Shenmue 3 is funded and co-developed by Sony.

Is it dishonest for Sony to put Yu Suzuki on stage to advertise a Kickstarter for Shenmue 3, but to not mention that the money is being raised to gauge interest in the game for Sony to fund it themselves? Afterall, unlike Bloodstained for which Iga announced as needing money to rope a publisher, Shenmue 3 game is being sold to backers as completely independent development.

We all knew 2 million wasn't nearly enough to develop a Shenmue game... But Sony damn well knew there was deep interest in Shenmue 3 even without even without a Kickstarter "interest gauge." I guess what we really need to know is: how much money Sony is putting into the project, how much control will Sony have, and how will the Kickstarter money is be used if the game has other means of funding? Backers have a right to know this much, especially before making the decision to pledge.

My question is, is it OK to use Kickstarter as an "interest meter" for publishers? And if so, is it OK for them not to disclose this in the Kickstarter itself?

Sony is likely covering the publishing and marketing costs. The Kickstarter was most likely for the actual development of the game.

I think it makes a lot of sense, actually - this is a high risk project, from a historical perspective. And the funds from the kickstarter are presumably going to development of the game - where else would they go? Just more money for them to play with.

as the mod above me posted, it makes alot of sense, Shenmue is an long time dorment series, it has NOT had the best Development history, and is a high risk endevour, using it as a gauge to see how much will there is for the game, is a smart move, I would note that I consider the 2 mill goal very low for such a game, Shenmue 2 cost around 60 mill back then, right? this will not cost as much, but anyone aiming South of 50 mill is aiming awefully low I think.

pretty much everyone with just a notion of the cost of making a game, would know that the Kickstarter was likely to show that the game is wanted. But I have no illusion that the more Money that kickstarter gets, the better it will be for all involved. If they could get it fully funded without Sony it would likely be best, but I have no faith in some 50+ mill. Ideally SOny would not have to foot the vat majority of the bill, and leave the creative efforts to the Devs (I freakin forgot the man responsible for the series).

I don't know really. It'll certainly take more then 2 million to make Shenmue 3 but you know for sure that it'll garner much more then 2 million on kickstarter when all is said and done. I won't lie, when I first saw this happen in their press conference I immediately felt that it seemed a bit shady.

@elheber: Would you rather have a cheap Shenmue 3 or do you want a sony backed well funded Shenmue?

And it's not dishonest what Sony did after all they used time on their press event for it, so its pretty obvious that they didn't just do it because he has nice eyes.

@elheber: Maybe I'm alone in this but I assumed that the Kickstarter was being used as an interest gauge for additional VC funding. This is actually a very common model for Kickstarters when they are trying to revive and existing franchise or do a "spiritual successor" type title. "Interest" is one thing, but interest doesn't automatically equal sales. Raising 3 mil from the public before a single line of code has been written is far more convincing to VCs who are risking their own money on a project.

I say more power to em. Bigger budget = higher probability of good game and I want this to be the best game it can possibly be.

-Byshop

How is it shady?

Kickstarter makes perfect sense for this game. Sony needs to know if people are willing to buy a sequel to a niche game that came 14 years ago. While there has been vocal demand for Shenmue, it is difficult to know if it's just a very vocal minority or if there is actual legitimate interest in ending a trilogy.

Yes, 2 million for a Shenmue sequel is impossible, but I imagine Sony will give a specific amount of funding depending on how well the kickstarter goes.

Shenmue costed $60 million because of how ambitious it was trying to be. They were basically creating the first 3D open world game with high amounts of cutscenes and interactivity. I doubt Shenmue 3 will be aiming to be a technical marvel like the last couple games. Most of the stuff that Shenmue accomplished is now standard or revamped completely for modern games.

I'm sure Shenmue 3 will cost $20-$30 million depending on how big they want to make it.

After how the first two games went down, I think it's only fair that the fans should have to put their money where their mouths are.

They also should have gotten the opportunity ages ago, but that's beside the point.

Well I guess I shouldn't say shady necessarily perhaps uncomfortable would be more appropriate. Like I said in my initial post I don't really know how I feel about just that when I first heard the news I didn't automatically go, "Sweet, Shenmue 3." I simply just thought "Hmmm."

Getting the vibe that it's only "dishonest" or "shady" to those who don't own a gaming PC or a PS4.

I have nothing against Sony funding the game. My problem is that they didn't mention it on the Kickstarter to potential backers, or that the influence of Sony on development isn't being disclosed (again, to backers).

2 million certainly isn't enough to develop a Shenmue title. However, like a few Kickstarted games have done before, the developers can move onto other forms of crowdfunding sources to maintain independence, such as how Star Citizen handled it. Conversely, they could have been upfront about Sony's involvement like Iga was for Bloodstained.

I mean- what a better way to gauge interest than to ask people to open their wallets? There is no better way to show your support. Im just glad it's happening.

Yeah, sure. Whatever.

Sure does seem that way.

To that, I would just say that Gio Corsi is good at his job. He saw Yu Suzuki's GDC talk last year, saw an opportunity to land a marquee third-party exclusive, pulled Suzuki aside at the conference and made it happen.

I've always been of the belief that part of the process of making Shenmue III a reality would have to involve crowdfunding of some sort (even before we had Kickstarter to do it with, I'm sure there are some posts of mine in the archives about this) just to assure Sega or any other producer(s) that there would be a return and it wouldn't be the first two games all over again.

Only, my approach in more recent years has been a bit more calculating, suggesting they use the Yakuza series to poll for interest in the genre as a whole before reviving Shenmue would even be a starting point, so I'd say the fanbase got off easy.

I was ecstatic when Shenmue 3 was announced as a kickstarter and had a pretty good idea that Sony would be backing it when Yu Suzuki came on stage asking for only $2 million from the crowd funding. I hopped on kickstarter right after the conference and Shenmue 3 became the first (probably only) game that I've "donated" too the development of.

If people are worried about Sony jumping in and taking away creative say so from the dev team, just be glad Sega isn't behind this (they gave the rights to Suzuki). Sega doesn't seem able to make a half decent game these days.

Sega not making money on Shenmue 1 is hardly the fans' faults. Sega spent way too much money up front during the development on that game.

-Byshop

I don't know if I'd call it dishonest, but it doesn't sit right with me. Kickstarter was a good alternative for small companies who couldn't get funding though traditional means. If multi-billion dollar international companies move into that space, then small developers and individuals have to compete with them there as well. Kind of kills the whole point of Kickstarter.

@Byshop: The question then becomes what about the first game could've been done cheaper, but I still think it ends in needing some tangible assurance from the players.

A ton of things. How much time did they spend working on the Saturn version? How many Shenmue 2 assets did they build as a part of Shenmue 1's development (since that's quoted as a chunk of that budget)?

Back then, they basically had to build everything from scratch. Developing on a relatively new console, building a detailed 3D world the likes of which nobody had every built before, etc. These days PC is a known quantity and the PS4 has been out for coming up on two years. The Unreal Engine means they don't have to build their engine from scratch. Almost everything about Shenmue was revolutionary at the time. The new game hopefully will be impressive, but they don't need to break the mold technologically.

But no, I don't have a problem with Sony gauging interest through a KS campaign. On the contrary, I think it's a great way to convince VCs that a game is worth making (certainly a hell of a lot better than an online petition).

-Byshop

@elheber: Maybe they don't have enough money alone to actually make it, i can't imagine Sony paying for everything

Then ultimately we're in agreement, and I truly feel that Kickstarter should have already made petitions a thing of the past.

@DarkCatalyst: I wasn't disagreeing, but "how Shenmue went" was entirely Sega's own fault. They spent so much during the development of the first game they would have had to sell two copies for every Dreamcast out there at the time to turn a profit. They bet on the long game and making money back over the course of the trilogy, but the console died before that could come to fruition.

-Byshop

Yeah, I'll admit to not reading into it too much. My entire take on it from the start has been.

1) Shenmue's costs > Shenmue's profits.
2) Yet, frothing demand remains for Shenmue III.
3) Therefore, before Shenmue III can be greenlit, assurance is needed that Shenmue III's costs < Shenmue III's profits.

My original plan actually added a step, requiring certain sales figures for Yakuza 5 before the Kickstarter would be posted, but all's well that ends well, it seems.

I was thinking just the opposite: Now Kickstarter has a real purpose, and instead of funding a bunch of crap that most people don't even want, they now can insure games like Shenmue 3 and Yuka-Lalee actually get funded instead of sitting on a CEO's desk for decades.

It's like a new day in the game industry when good games don't get held back anymore due to less than CoD sales. This is a great way to let the people decide instead of only the ultra rich and corporates who know jack about what gamers actually want.

@The_Last_Ride: Right. But as I've stated before, my problem isn't that Sony is helping fund it, but that it wasn't disclosed to backers and was instead sold on Kickstarter as a totally independent development.

I'm sure there's overlap between the fan bases, but I wouldn't want to bank entirely on the interest in Yakuza as being a gauge for the interest in Shenmue.

Either way, I like the idea of Kickstarter being a "petition with teeth" and this isn't the first game that has used it that way.

-Byshop

For you guys talking about shady if you were businessmen and I ask you to give me 20 million to make a sequel of a game that came out so long ago you would send me over to kickstarter to gauge interest faster than I can say jump, sony did the right thing.

i thought it was pretty obvious that it's a console exclusive, it's coming to pc as well which sony isn't funding

Where in the Kickstarter does it say that it's totally independent?

yeah, just to be clear - we don't know how much Sony is paying into this, but it clearly isn't 100% such that this is "their property". This is an independent project, as evidenced by its multiplat status. Indeed, the kickstarter page hasn't even 100% ruled out XBox if you look (I think it's very UNLIKELY, and Sony is probably working to encourage that doesn't happen, but the point is this isn't a Sony project). Sony is probably committing enough to make sure it happens, has the resources it needs.

It makes perfect sense to see whether there's enough interest in a third one. The games came out more than a decade ago and weren't that commercially successful, so it makes perfect sense to see whether there's enough interest. >$2 million in 9 hours pretty clearly shows there is.

It's just a test to see whether or not the public cares. "Shenmue" didn't sell very well..

The announcement video said he was "building Shenmue 3 through Kickstarter."

Most importantly it was implied by omission. When news sites picked the story up, nobody was able to report on Sony being directly involved in funding & development. Compare this to Bloodstained which was upfront about the money being used to measure interest for their selected investor(s), and news outlets were able to immediately report on it too.

I still don't regret giving them money if it helps gauge interest and gets me my rewards anyway; I just want them to be upfront about what the funding goals really are with our money.

Well after thinking about some more I'm cool with that. I'd rather have a Shenmue III then none at all. Anyway I'd really like to see an Xbox One version and even better perhaps the first two games offered in some fashion as well.

I don't do kickstarters nor I have played any of the shenmue games. But there is a dedicated fanbase that really wants this game. Honestly though, I personally would feel safer doing a kick starter knowing Sony was planning to also back the game. It's one of those things where I don't think it's a bad thing as it is a niche game and isn't going to sell 10 million copies. But I'm happy it was a success and the Shenmue fans will finally get their third game.

Since this is a reality, I might try and play the first 2 but they are pretty pricey on ebay and I don't own a dreamcast to play the first one. Sony should use some of that money and port the first 2 games to PS4 or PC for an HD collection (I know it would be another HD collection, but considering I have never played these games and most likely many others haven't but are interested in why some are so into the series). Or if Microsoft wants to jump in and help they could produce an HD collection while Sony helpes with the third game and deal could be that it's a collective project and gets shared between PS4, PC and X1.

But yeah, that will never happen lol I would be smart though since this seems more of a niche series, help bring some us who never played it and get us interested for the next one. Selling on 3 platforms would equal more money.

Think they are abusing the kickstarter system for pure marketing reasons. It stinks pretty much, shame on them!

exactly, Sony have probably made a deal to fund a lot of the project. But they're not going to 100% fund a project if it's coming to other platforms now are they?

That's not accurate. Shenmue 1 sold 1.2 million copies. For the time and for that console, that's really good. It actually sold more copies than Code Veronica. The problem was it wasn't a financial success, and that's not the same thing. Sales were great, but they spent way too much money making the game. Shenmue 2's sales numbers can't be trusted because the console was discontinued right when the game was coming out and it never got a US release.

True, other campaigns have been more up front about this approach but I wouldn't call it dishonest. Besides, you haven't given them your money. Nothing is vested until the campaign ends and you can change your pledge.

-Byshop

I had a feeling Sony would fund Shenmue 3. I wondered why they weren't funding it when they announced it at E3 as a Kickstarer. I think it's not really dishonest, it just shows that there is the support and demand for the game and interest. It's gonna take more than $2,000,000 to fund probably $30,000,00 or more give or take development cost among other things.