Does a Sci-Fi RPG really need the equivalent to magic?

I've had a good idea for a sci-fi rpg recently, and have come across the problem in brainstorming. Does a science fiction rpg really need a magical equivalent to fantasy rpg's?

It would be great to incorporate such, but how well can a sci-fi rpg do without one? Obviously there would be more than one kind of combat type, but would not having a clear "magic" pursuit available actually hurt the game, so that players wouldn't be interested? Anarchy Online had a type of nanotechnology which was their magic equivalency, and Mass Effect had psionics, to give two examples. Is the forced equivalency making it "hokey"?

It's hard to figure this out, and then if you do need an equivalency, what would it be without totally ripping off another sci fi story? It's not like we can just call it the "Schworce". ;)

pretty much any reason for Sci-Fi magic i can think of does sound cliche, you can do implants and nano tech, alien parasites, genetic mutation...but that's all been done before

or you can just go the shadowrun route and say that there's magic in this day and age...

Fallout.

Lots of Sci-Fi, and not a drop of magic.

^^^ Yeah, no...

Fallout.

Lots of Sci-Fi, and not a drop of magic.

XaosII

Because ^ that proves ya wrong.

I've avoided Sci-Fi RPGs over the years because of the over reliance on fantasy RPG standards. Why MUST their be magic or an equivelant there of? Same goes for all RPGs quite frankly. But with Sci-Fi RPGs it just seems like they're taking a fantasy RPG and slapping on a futuristic 'skin' to make it Sci-Fi. Sure, you can explain it away why it works all you want (parasitic creatures, the force, mass effect, etc.) but it all comes down to the same thing, magic.

It's one of the reasons I loved FFVI up until near the mid part. Only a couple of characters had magical abilities, but the others had realistic skills to compensate for lack of the standard (like Edgar's tooks and Sabin's blitzes, etc.).

I've avoided Sci-Fi RPGs over the years because of the over reliance on fantasy RPG standards. Why MUST their be magic or an equivelant there of? Same goes for all RPGs quite frankly. But with Sci-Fi RPGs it just seems like they're taking a fantasy RPG and slapping on a futuristic 'skin' to make it Sci-Fi. Sure, you can explain it away why it works all you want (parasitic creatures, the force, mass effect, etc.) but it all comes down to the same thing, magic.

VilgeDuin

Personally, I agree. I think most sci-fi rpgs as are only superficially science fiction, but are inherently a fantasy rpg. You're essentially battling orcs and dragons in space while looking for one holodisk to rule them all. But none the less, examples are few and far between that try to adhere to its science fiction root. Most sci-fi rpgs usually have some equivalency to magic in them. But why? Is that what people want? LOTR in space? I don't particularly think so, but I think part of the reason for magic duping has been a commercial interest. It's hardly arguing,but fantasy rpgs are the leader in rpg gaming. Using magic in them though, is because of the world they are crafted in. There is ranged, melee, and magic attacks (ranged and magic being hand in hand in their roots). But these are because of one, the world they are in, and two, the technological limitations. In fantasy, being a non magic user means you must use earthly weaponry, and you want to find and use the strongest one. In sci fi, or even a modern day setting, melee is almost obsolete. Guns are prevalent, and guns are ranged, and melee is tactically obsolete. In fallout, I found that melee just didn't cut it at all after the early stages of the game. Dont bring a knife to a gunfight.

So perhaps the choice of magic equivalency was chosen to offer a wider variety of combat attributes available to a wider audience. Star Wars, arguablythe, or a least one of the leading cult following of sci fi has magic in it. But conversely, Star Trek did not. So that proves that the existence of magic or an equivalency to it is not required to makeit popular. After all, if you're going to be playing a sci-fi rpg, you should be realizing that the world is going to tend to be gun heavy. If you're not a fan of laser pistols, then a sci fi rpg probably isnt for you.

Myself, in the idea I am constructing, am feeling that combat can still offer a wider range within the universe of a sci fi origin. Laser weapons, bullet ammunition style weapons, bomb construction, vehicle combat (both ground and space), melee (both hand combat and knife-esque combat). Even droid construction and maintanence. But I feel that rpgs are more, or at least should be, more than just be combat oriented. Melee should be for more of an assassin/stealth choosing of gameplay. And perhaps other skills to compliment other skills. Perhaps a smart suit for melee people, but it only works as well as how stealthy you are and how versed in the technology of the suit you actually are. How well the technology actually works is based off the level of your skill set. Or demolition, the ability to craft and individualize a couple hundred bombs types. From explosive to chemical to biological to electrical. Or for the computer hacker, the ability to create viruses that are special to them, that can knock out security cameras, tounlocking all door, to making turrets fire on their own owners, depending on their level of skill.

There is a slew of potential combat orientations that one can choose. I just think that game designers are not thinking deep enough into the environment the RPG is based.I honestly think that there are more combat classes available to a sci fi rpg than in fantasy. But are gamers really ready for a much deeper involvement within a game? An interface that allows for more in depth actions and choices? To dwell closer to virtual reality?

:)

Healing adds a gameplay element.

It is hard to justify healing without an equivalent to magic, except maybe on a robots...and even then...fast healing isn't easy to be logical, since if it is justified, then why isn't it automated as needed? Magic-oriented logic helps with that a lot.

No, it doesn't needs an equivalent, and maybe you can make the characters regen fast and all, but no matter how you do it, you lose some realism in order to get more FUN, which is a good idea.

Personally I don't think that immediate battlefield healing is necessary. That sounds more like shooter game than an rpg. Healing is an gameplay element yes, but it also affects tactical choices. It's alot easier to go into battle knowing that a mage's healing spell orfifty healing potions will make up for your lack of skill and/or tactics. Personally I don't think that takes away from fun, but simply adds a new element.Like what was said before, sci fi is not fantasy, nor vice versa. Nor is magic a set standard of both, or ofrpgs. The inclusion of magic dependson the universe, not on it being anrpg. Darklands was a fantasy game set in medieval times that had no definite magic, and is widely regarded as one of the best games of all time.

Is that the extent on people's ideas on this?

Gamespot forums certainly aren't populated by the most indepth of users.

Is that the extent on people's ideas on this?

Gamespot forums certainly aren't populated by the most indepth of users.

doomninja_lives

All i have to say is the more options you have for combat and role playing, that are thought out, make sense and are well done, the more people that will play it.

I often have trouble playing RPG's that don't have stealth elements in them because I like to play as a thief/assassin first and foremost and there are people out there that just like the difficulty of playing a mage/magic user class. It's the whole thrill of starting out weak but at the end you're one of the most destructive forces in the game.

Even in the new game informer they say the expansion to Neverwtiner Nights 2 is so fun because spell casters of epic levels just destroy everything in their path. The biotics in Mass Effect were useful just because they would run into a room and start tossing foes about. It gives that extra boost of fantasy when you can do incredible things like that.

Fallout and Deus Ex shows that you dont need to shoot fireballs from your arms or call forth lightning from the skies... but it doesn't hurt to have those options available.

All I'm saying, and trying to generate feedback on what people think or want to be the case, is that having magic is not necessary in an rpg. Perhaps if cybernetic enchancements with robotic arms could shoot fireballs.

But frankly, incorporating magic into every rpg seems ridiculous. It would be saddening to think that people need the same thing all the time without any change. Seems rather static and not very unique at all.

taking out mystical elements would be like taking out sniper rifles in most FPS's... I've rarely seen a game that requires a sniper rifle in it but they include it just because it changes up gameplay just enough to provide a different experience. the same thing could be said of magic... i haven't reallyseen a game thatneeded it but it's nice to have to change the gameplay options up a bit.

and you have to admit your one line about people playing the same way as a bit ironic, the way you're talking is you'd create a game that omits magic and forces everyone into a combat role... an option that availible in EVERY RPG ever created.

Obviously combat is in every rpg. But that doesn't mean that the same TYPES of combat need to be in EVERY rpg. And yes, adding magic would change the gameplay, but not every single rpg needs magic just to change up the gameplay. Perfectly suitable alternatives are available to change up gameplay, and not only that,there are options that are directly combat oriented either. Not every rpg needs someone who can cause earthquakes or bring lightning from the skies. The point of the topic was about the NEED to create a gameplay element that is simply magic superficially coated with a sci fi aura.

Sure it adds a new element to gameplay, but isit NEEDED because it's an rpg. You could throw a sudoku puzzle twenty times in the damn game, and that changes the gameplay element, but isit REQUIRED? Is it really necessary to throw a damnwizard inevery rpg just because its an rpg? Is magic the ONLY gameplay element nexts to guns/melee? To me its achincy thing to do a sci fi rpg. Sure magic in games is fun enough, but does it need to be inevery frickin game? No. It doesn't. That's absurd.

and you have to admit your one line about people playing the same way as a bit ironic, the way you're talking is you'd create a game that omits magic and forces everyone into a combat role... an option that availible in EVERY RPG ever created.

smerlus

magic is a combat role. and just because someone doesn't choose to use it in those rpgs doesn't mean it becomes omitted from the ENTIRE game. It's still a factor in them.

[QUOTE="smerlus"]

and you have to admit your one line about people playing the same way as a bit ironic, the way you're talking is you'd create a game that omits magic and forces everyone into a combat role... an option that availible in EVERY RPG ever created.

doomninja_lives

magic is a combat role. and just because someone doesn't choose to use it in those rpgs doesn't mean it becomes omitted from the ENTIRE game. It's still a factor in them.

not allmagic is about throwing fireballs and shocking people to death. some magic is stricly supportive as in healing and buffs/debuffs, recognizing items, creating more powerful potions and equipment

fact is magic is in videogames for a reason, it's far more versitile than any other class' skills or feats and enables players to do things they would never be able to do otherwise. it doesn't vary gameplay like throwing suduko puzzles in it, it sticks to the foundation of the game universe and enhances gameplay.

Magic is simply magical and was around way before sci fi, in fact i would think it was the basis for a lot of sci fi things... people probably thought "hey magic enables people to fly, let's think of a way people can fly using technology that doesn't exist."

either way, whether you're shooting energy rounds out of a gun using small nuclear reactors or equipping your body with nanotech enhancements to improve aiming... you are required to suspend reality and belief and just accept that these things work flawlessly. Fallout and Deus Ex have things that just work because we're told they do and that in itself is a form of magic.

Ino longer see the point in this topic, you want to take out a complimentary function of a game just because.... you really have no reasonto want it out besides that you dont like it.

again thisis like taking sniper rifles out of games just because you dont like them whenin all honesty, they're not a detriment to any game play and they only add to tactics and things like that.

That is probably the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

I hardly think that magic was the basis for sci fi. That is, perhaps, single handedly one of the most nonsensical thing perhaps ever to put on the internet. Sci fi has been around for, and has been independent of fantasy for just as long, if not longer.

So before you try to argue thatRed Bull isa magic potion in real life and get too retardedly off topic, I must say that incorporating magic into everything is simply unoriginal, andfrankly a sham and ignorant of the foundations of both sci fi and fantasy.

I do not mind games with magic, but I do mind if every gamehas magic.

Even some fantasy books, such as Ivanhoe would have been garbage if magic was in them.

In regards to healing and other uses it has, that can easily be replaced.

For the most part, magic destroys most sci fi universes to have it in it. No one would like D&D to have the odd tank or assault rifle in it. Sometimes universes just don't need it. And for the most part, to incorporate it into a sci fi game is simply a cop out for commercialtargetventures, tieing in with the developers choosingnot to think too indepthly about their game.

And to say that science fiction elements such as nanotechnology are magic are equally unfounded because such things do exist. Even if it didn't,the inclusion of that which is not real or not yet real does not make it magic. Even cybernetic arms and legs are possible right now. Its been done. Not well, but it has been done. It's notmagic. People who miniturize robots or develop robotic limbs for people are not magicians.

If people want magic in everything, then they are no more easier to satisy than a six year old. Thoughts and desires like that simply destroy gaming progression as there is no real reason to improve upon or change anything simply because people only want the same thing. Itspissing on all creative thoughteverywhere.

again thisis like taking sniper rifles out of games just because you dont like them whenin all honesty, they're not a detriment to any game play and they only add to tactics and things like that.

smerlus

It has nothing to do with not liking them for the last damn time.

Its the same reasonno oneadded an M1-Abrahms tank to Neverwinter Nights 2.

Some things just have no place.

lol now you're getting all upset at other people's opinions and making glaring mistakes...

Sci Fi has been around since fantasy? You're right, Right after Homer wrote the Odyssey back in 700BC, he penned the script for Star Trek 4

you're right, we do have Nanotech like Deus Ex, right now i just cut myself laughing at your post and watched tiny little machines patch me up, it also helps me outon reserve weekends because the little nano mites in my skin help me aim better and create barriers around me to help rockets detonate before they hit me.

Actually in Morrowind, there were robots walking around in dwemer ruins.... Oh my godthat whole game was ruined because there was a sci fi element in a fantasy RPG... no actually it wasn't because the inclusion of that fit within the setting just like The Force is explained in Star Wars, just like Biotics is explained in Mass Effect, just like Nano Technology is explained in Deus Ex, just like mutations are explained in Marvel Ultimate Alliance, just like Magic is explained in Shadowrun.

if you just want guns and nomysitcal elements in your games, just play Halo dont sit here and tell people there shouldn't be magic in these games just because you're tired of seeing it.