Doing whatever it takes to win

I have noticed a lot of discussion on the boards lately about things like Armor Lock in Halo, and how the MW2 community is lame due to camping, sniping etc.These are just two examples from games.

Why is it that gamers get so frustrated when other players do what it takes to win? If a game is made a certain way, why do we complain when players use certain features to their advantage? Do you really expect other players to just completely not use game features so that they don't appear to be "cheap". I hate when people say things like "that's cheap" or calls someone a noob because they are owning you and you can't figure out how to stop them.

If these features are so cheap and so many people are relying on them then A TON of people should have found a way around it. If they aren't exploiting a bug, to me it shouldn't be considered "cheap". I think that some gamers are so obsessed with being hardcore and "real" that they don't wanna play certain ways, just play to win.

I have noticed a lot of discussion on the boards lately about things like Armor Lock in Halo, and how the MW2 community is lame due to camping, sniping etc.These are just two examples from games.

Why is it that gamers get so frustrated when other players do what it takes to win? If a game is made a certain way, why do we complain when players use certain features to their advantage? Do you really expect other players to just completely not use game features so that they don't appear to be "cheap". I hate when people say things like "that's cheap" or calls someone a noob because they are owning you and you can't figure out how to stop them.

If these features are so cheap and so many people are relying on them then A TON of people should have found a way around it. If they aren't exploiting a bug, to me it shouldn't be considered "cheap". I think that some gamers are so obsessed with being hardcore and "real" that they don't wanna play certain ways, just play to win.

Jurassic85

When I had GT3 a friend accused me of cheating cause I would slow down and use the computer cars as breaks during sharp turns.... in addition I would ignore the s-curves. Fortunately both games and myself are more mature nowadays and such shenanigans are no longer possible. :D

People unhappy with the unbalanced multiplayer ofReachor MW2 should beangryat the designers, not their fellow players.Rather than ask everyone else to not use the most effective strategies, abilities and weapons, they should either employ thosethings themselves or find a new game to play.

As said, there's nothing wrong with using everything that the rules of the game allow (and usually it's impossible to break videogame rules). Personally though I'm not a fan of using certain win tactics. I have my own gaming codex that I abide to. And when I beat some spammers, campers, uber-equip-users or other lame "winning is all so I play certain win" sayers with my own way the feel of accomplishment just gets bigger and more satisfying. So I actually have to thank those guys.

But whatever way of playing someone has: Swearing, flaming and other rudenesses are the lowest of the lowest things on my codex' list of low things. So either leave the room and ignore them or show them what you consider true gaming.

I don't think people complain about camping and or camping+sniping because it's a cheap way of winning, but because the person doing it usually isn't contributing anything to the team.

In a plain death match perhaps it wouldn't be an issue.

Personally though I'm not a fan of using certain win tactics. I have my own gaming codex that I abide to. And when I beat some spammers, campers, uber-equip-users or other lame "winning is all so I play certain win" sayers with my own way the feel of accomplishment just gets bigger and more satisfying. So I actually have to thank those guys.

But whatever way of playing someone has: Swearing, flaming and other rudenesses are the lowest of the lowest things on my codex' list of low things. So either leave the room and ignore them or show them what you consider true gaming.

Reptylus

See and that's the thing, everyone has their own "code" of "true gaming" so why hate on someone else's? I don't undertand why someone would not be a fan of certain win tactics. I'm not attacking you, but if the point of the game is to win what difference does it make. Someone who won the lottery and someone who worked their tail off in school to become wealthy are still in the same financial situation, regardless of how they got there, to use an analogy.

I agree that profanity is a form of "intimidation" that has become too popular in gaming.

I don't think people complain about camping and or camping+sniping because it's a cheap way of winning, but because the person doing it usually isn't contributing anything to the team.

In a plain death match perhaps it wouldn't be an issue.

superfluidity

That doesn't make sense to me. IMO people complain about camping and sniping because it is annoying to continuously get killed by something you can't see. Snipers are often contributing plenty to their team in numbers of kills, that's why the other team complains.

It depends on what you call camping if you are talking about someone who sits behind a barrier and is actually trying no if you are talking about someone who sits in a little corner of a building waiting to get 3 kills then yes and there is really no way to stop it unless you know he is there

[QUOTE="Reptylus"]

Personally though I'm not a fan of using certain win tactics. I have my own gaming codex that I abide to. And when I beat some spammers, campers, uber-equip-users or other lame "winning is all so I play certain win" sayers with my own way the feel of accomplishment just gets bigger and more satisfying. So I actually have to thank those guys.

But whatever way of playing someone has: Swearing, flaming and other rudenesses are the lowest of the lowest things on my codex' list of low things. So either leave the room and ignore them or show them what you consider true gaming.

Jurassic85

See and that's the thing, everyone has their own "code" of "true gaming" so why hate on someone else's? I don't undertand why someone would not be a fan of certain win tactics. I'm not attacking you, but if the point of the game is to win what difference does it make. Someone who won the lottery and someone who worked their tail off in school to become wealthy are still in the same financial situation, regardless of how they got there, to use an analogy.

I agree that profanity is a form of "intimidation" that has become too popular in gaming.

I don't think people complain about camping and or camping+sniping because it's a cheap way of winning, but because the person doing it usually isn't contributing anything to the team.

In a plain death match perhaps it wouldn't be an issue.

superfluidity

That doesn't make sense to me. IMO people complain about camping and sniping because it is annoying to continuously get killed by something you can't see. Snipers are often contributing plenty to their team in numbers of kills, that's why the other team complains.

But in an objective match where number of kills means nothing, they aren't contributing at all. I can't count how many times I've lost objective matches in CoD and see one or more team members with 30+ kills and no territories captured, no flag captures, no HQ defenses, no HQ destructions, ect. Yeah their 30+ kills (on enemies that respawn in a matter of seconds btw) really helped us when we lost by 150 points in a game of Domination.

But I also feel that is NOT the reason many people rage over how others play these games. In the case of MW2 the game just had a pile of exploits, bugs, and mechanics that allowed for busted gameplay. It's on the developer to actually support their games with regular patches to fix what they deem exploits. Which is something MW2 rarely got. I remember MW2 was so bad for awhile that Xbox Live moderators actually threatened to suspend or ban anyone they caught using exploits prior to them being patched.

I view "cheap tactics" as "using a strategy that usually has not been forseen by the opposition".

If someone was camping in real life, would you call that unfair? No. I'd call it efficient. How would you deal with it? Slip a grenade in the door.

MW2's camping schemes are far too unbalanced (and map designs). In real life, one would blast the camper with a RPG or grenade launcher.

as long as it's within the context of the game (i.e., not glitching), I'm all for it. The developers should get the blame for any imbalances.

But in an objective match where number of kills means nothing, they aren't contributing at all. I can't count how many times I've lost objective matches in CoD and see one or more team members with 30+ kills and no territories captured, no flag captures, no HQ defenses, no HQ destructions, ect. Yeah their 30+ kills (on enemies that respawn in a matter of seconds btw) really helped us when we lost by 150 points in a game of Domination.

But I also feel that is NOT the reason many people rage over how others play these games. In the case of MW2 the game just had a pile of exploits, bugs, and mechanics that allowed for busted gameplay. It's on the developer to actually support their games with regular patches to fix what they deem exploits. Which is something MW2 rarely got. I remember MW2 was so bad for awhile that Xbox Live moderators actually threatened to suspend or ban anyone they caught using exploits prior to them being patched.

keech

Except that is a totally different situation...we are talking about examples of people being annoyed with the opposite team for cheap WINNING, yours is an example of being mad at YOUR OWN team for losing due to stupidity. I see where you are coming from, I have experienced that same frustration.

Camping and sniping can be very useful in objective based matches. I can't count the number of times I have been playing Halo Reach and been shot by a sniper while trying to capture a flag, or whatever. Is it cheap? Maybe, and its frustrating as crap, but I try to tell where the sniper shot me from so I can sneak up on him, rather than whine about it.

Also MW2 is a unique example, and a very specific one. But I see your points, and they kind of back me up. If a developer makes a game that has UNINTENDED exploits and doesn't patch it, they are to blame, not the gamers.

That doesn't make sense to me. IMO people complain about camping and sniping because it is annoying to continuously get killed by something you can't see. Snipers are often contributing plenty to their team in numbers of kills, that's why the other team complains.

Jurassic85

That isn't true in a number of different games. For example, I've gone 30 and 0 by hiding on open maps in BFBC2, but my score was still fairly low because I was just picking off random people in one area and not necessarily defending or helping to capture any objective. I rarely do this because I know it isn't that helpful and on most maps those kinds of numbers aren't obtainable while camping anyway.

The main point is that killing people who aren't doing anything important when you kill them isn't very helpful to the team.

They know how you should play and tell you when you play the game the wrong way.

To me it doesn't matter if I win or loose, I value winning in the right way, I find it meaningless to win by exploiting.

Camping isn't such a thing but there are ways of exploiting a game that wheren't supposed to be there by the developers, it was a side effect of the game that you just couldn't bypass. It's sad that those things exist because competetive people usually exploit them.

It's way more valuable to me, I feel much better, If I win a match by playing in a way that was meant to be played.

That's why I dislike games and sports that have exploiters, such as soccer because you can exploit the fact that it's impossible to determine in some cases whether or not you where actually hit or are faking it, from some angles the referee can't see well.

It's not a way in which you are meant to play soccer, therefore it's unacceptable and cheap to do so.

Winning means nothing to me if you didn't win in a correct way. That's why there are established rules in E-Sport events that makes sure you can't take advantage of such things.

You can be as happy as you want but you won't get any praise from me if you used cheap tricks to win.

A good game improves the player in ways that go beyond a specific game. Taboo game tactics are looked down upon because they seem to serve no purpose beyond survival. Survival is important, but if stagnation is the result of actions, these actions will eventually bite players in the butt. So, these tactics will eventually wear thin and not survive. In the end, only very few will have any sort of true skill.

I remember in Perfect Dark for the N64, there are these extra challenges, where you play against really tough CPU's. They used some pretty annoying tricks people would call cheap. Like using the Farsight a LOT. (A weapon that lets you shoot through walls and hit anyone anywhere.) They didn't camp much though. But they were REALLY good at killing you without you even knowing what hit you. And there was always a very deadly camper by the breifcase in capture the briefcase. (Like Capture the flag.)

Point is, if these guys are beatable, I'm sure most of the guys you're talking about are too, people who wine just don't know how. Or don't have the skills. I really don't care what my oponants do, as long as they don't exploit a glitch.

I agree with your point and I think that my frustration stems from my lack of understanding in dealing with their tactics. Your bring up the armor lock ability in Halo: Reach and that used to be a big thorn in my side when I first began playing that game, but now that I've adapted to it (the duration of it, how other players use it, etc) the ability is easier to deal with. My two cents, anyway.

[QUOTE="Reptylus"]

Personally though I'm not a fan of using certain win tactics. I have my own gaming codex that I abide to. And when I beat some spammers, campers, uber-equip-users or other lame "winning is all so I play certain win" sayers with my own way the feel of accomplishment just gets bigger and more satisfying. So I actually have to thank those guys.

But whatever way of playing someone has: Swearing, flaming and other rudenesses are the lowest of the lowest things on my codex' list of low things. So either leave the room and ignore them or show them what you consider true gaming.

Jurassic85

See and that's the thing, everyone has their own "code" of "true gaming" so why hate on someone else's? I don't undertand why someone would not be a fan of certain win tactics. I'm not attacking you, but if the point of the game is to win what difference does it make. Someone who won the lottery and someone who worked their tail off in school to become wealthy are still in the same financial situation, regardless of how they got there, to use an analogy.

I think you missunderstood me a little bit. I was completely agreeing to your oppinion. I never said that I hate the way others play. As long no rule is broken anyone is free to do anything. I just wanted to say that I don't like playing like that myself because it takes out the fun of competition.

BTW, your analogy doesn't quite work: The financial situation is serious business. But we are talking about games = no serious business. So there's no reason to kill the fun to achive the win. That's at least my thought when I decide to leave a camp spot and my sniper rifle behind to make some adrenaline-filled shotgun kills (which usually leads to a victory in BFBC2, but that's not important right now).

Only thing I consider a cheap winning tactic is when several members of the opposition join your team, does some team killing that puts the opposition team at an advantage with the overall score and then jump back to their team.

It is a brilliant tactic but one that irritates even me.