Final bosses should not be hard (***MAJOR MP2 and RE4 SPOILERS***)

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for Funkyhamster
Funkyhamster

17366

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#1 Funkyhamster
Member since 2005 • 17366 Posts


Yes, that's right. It seems to me like the final boss in all games should be, if not easy, at least easier than the other bosses and challenges in the game. But why? I don't know if you guys have the same view, but for me an extremely challenging final boss kills the momentum of the game and makes beating it unsatisfying and uninteresting.

Take Metroid Prime 2. The final boss fight (or rather first final boss fight if you will) with Emperor Ing is one of the most difficult fights in the game for me. After working through 20 hours of collecting various keys and fighting bosses, I was feeling pretty pumped when I finally unlocked the very last part of the game. To my dismay, I ran smack-dab into a challenging boss fight. The excitement of finishing the game has completely dissipated - I know that when I beat it, I'll just have a short ending cutscene and then be right back on the title screen. I now have no motivation to keep working to beat Emperor Ing.

On the opposite side of things is Resident Evil 4. RE4's last boss fight with Lord Saddler is pretty darn easy by the game's standards. However, this lets the game keep its frantic, dramatic mood right up until the very end.

Does anybody else feel the same way? I mean, I know for me the climax of a game is right around the last boss fight... but I don't know if it's the same for you guys.

Avatar image for deactivated-5de2fb6a3a711
deactivated-5de2fb6a3a711

13995

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 25

User Lists: 0

#2 deactivated-5de2fb6a3a711
Member since 2004 • 13995 Posts
well it depends I guess. I always look forward to it being fun at least. I was actually disappointed with the final boss in RE4 mainly because I felt ripped off when all of the previous bosses were chaotic. otherwise it wouldn't really matter to me if it was just fun and entertaining, though I want a good challenge as well. I just like RE4's final boss battle because the game itself was so darn great, so I didn't really complain too much about it
Avatar image for AtomicTangerine
AtomicTangerine

4413

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#3 AtomicTangerine
Member since 2005 • 4413 Posts
Sorry dude, but if you have a final boss fight, it should be the climax of the whole game. It should totally be the hardest part. All the skills you've honed through the game should be put to the ultimate test. You should feel at least at the start of the battle like you have no chance of winning. If you do win, you should almost feel like you have to take a breather when it is all done. You mention Metroid Prime 2 as having too hard a boss, but in reality the boss isn't just too hard, but also very dumb. For a great example of a final boss, I would point to Mega Man X.
Avatar image for DerekLoffin
DerekLoffin

9095

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 47

User Lists: 0

#4 DerekLoffin
Member since 2002 • 9095 Posts

I definitely agree with you on MP2. I gave up on that game because I wasn't even coming close to beating him, and up to that point I actually really liked that game. The end kinda ruined my experience with it.

However, if a final boss is too easy it isn't much fun either. I think what I'm looking for is a solid final boss who, while difficult, isn't beyond the rest of the game's difficulty.

Avatar image for JustPlainLucas
JustPlainLucas

80441

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 226

User Lists: 0

#5 JustPlainLucas
Member since 2002 • 80441 Posts

I disagree. If you ask me, an easy final boss ruins the game *cough* BioShock *cough*. Now, I will agree with you if the end boss is ridiculously hard, but only as a result of you being screwed for not leveling your chracters' stats correctly, or not finding the right weapons/items. I know a few RPGs that had impossible last battles, and you could fight them for an hour straight and still lose. In those extreme cases, I agree. However, as a rule, the end boss needs to be the most difficult boss of the game because... well, it's the end boss.

Avatar image for deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

57548

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 19

User Lists: 0

#6 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts
Then you'll love FF X. You can't lose to the final boss - no matter how hard you try.
Avatar image for dgbeard45
dgbeard45

989

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#7 dgbeard45
Member since 2003 • 989 Posts
I understand where you are coming from but I don't completely agree with you. A final boss should measure up to the rest of the game. That's one of my main problems with some games, they are too uneven in the boss area. For instance, just picture a game where the first boss competes in difficulty with a halfway point boss, it just doesn't seem right. I'm not saying that the bosses have to gradual get harder but there should be a sense of balance between them. If what I'm saying makes any sense.
Avatar image for ImaPirate0202
ImaPirate0202

4473

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

#8 ImaPirate0202
Member since 2005 • 4473 Posts
This is one of the reasons why I hated Ninja Gaiden.
Avatar image for JustPlainLucas
JustPlainLucas

80441

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 226

User Lists: 0

#9 JustPlainLucas
Member since 2002 • 80441 Posts

Then you'll love FF X. You can't lose to the final boss - no matter how hard you try.sonicare

Well, to be honest, it was my fault for spending all that extra time making them insanely overpowered by breaking their limits and getting their ultimate weapons and whatnot. Heh, my friend and I were playing FF7 around the same time, and he beat it before me, saying that he smacked the hell out of Sephiroth. So, he came over to my house to watch me beat it, and of course, I didn't have half the crap he did, so my battle with Seph was much longer. He summoned Super Nova and my friend was just flipping out. I asked him, "He didn't do this to you?" "No! I guess I killed him too quickly.

So, I guess in RPGs, it's really about what you do to the characters or how long you spend grinding their levels/stats that determins the end boss's difficulty. At least FFXIII made their monsters level up when you did.

Avatar image for Shinoto
Shinoto

8331

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#10 Shinoto
Member since 2006 • 8331 Posts

Heck no, Haven't you ever seen Ghost Busters? YOU NEED EPIC DAMMIT!!! Easy Is Not Epic!!!

Too easy is just a let down, and Too hard is just too much too late. You need that balance

Avatar image for MAILER_DAEMON
MAILER_DAEMON

45906

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#11 MAILER_DAEMON
Member since 2003 • 45906 Posts
Can't agree. One of the things I absolutely hated about FFX was that it was impossible to die at the final boss. I've always been of the opinion that you can go through and beat the game at one skill level, but if you do everything possible in the game, including beat the optional bosses, then the final boss will become even harder than the optionals. An easy final boss is anticlimactic... which is why Kingdom Hearts 2 was such a let-down, and why I still get livid when I think about the fact that they'll never release Final Mix, which actually had Lv. 99 versions of each Organization XIII member.
Avatar image for FlaminDeath
FlaminDeath

4181

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#12 FlaminDeath
Member since 2004 • 4181 Posts
I was slightly let down by the final Satler battle because every other boss made me **** myself.
Avatar image for DysterMareritt
DysterMareritt

25

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#13 DysterMareritt
Member since 2005 • 25 Posts

I tend to agree with most people on this. While the boss - and let's not forget that at times these boss fights have one heck of a path leading to them as well - should not be too hard but they shouldn't be too easy either. The boss fight is like the final exam, it's a test of your skills (like someone said earlier), and it should put them to the test, however they should NEVER, EVER ask anything highly required or new of you at this point. Case & point: Psychonaughts did very well as a game right up until the end where you had to outrun the "timer." While asking you to dodge projectiles, which happened throughout the game, was just fine. it violated the "Final Run/Boss" rule where you should never ask something that hasn't been done anywhere else in the game in this situation. This violation really made me very angry and thus I've never completed the game...which I've had since release.

Now there is a note that should be added here. Games that want you to focus on using more of their "tools" the makers put in their game versus doing it the same old fashion way during the "Final Run/Boss" part, to see if the player has figured it out, AKA the final exam.

Another example, I just finished Bioshock for the 360 recently and I was on my 2nd time through on hard just to get that "Really good at this" achievement. Every walkthrough that I had read (since I figured the boss fight would be hard so I wanted to check up in it and not pull out my hair later), told me of these elaborate way of being the final boss, using this 'weapon & ammo here', then to 'switch to this weapon & ammo while dodging these attacks' 'yadda yadda yadda.' Needless to say there was no real plasmid use through the boss fight in their walkthroughs. Luckily the game made you play all the way through again instead of just changing the difficulty from the options menu at the autosave right before the boss fight (which I had tried to do), so I had to play through the game on hard which gave me a whole new perspective on the plasmids, tonics and ammo consumption, but mostly the first two. A little tip here, the plasmid/tonic walkthrough on GameFaqs was played through and graded on easy, so there was no real point is using the plasmids or tonics, but if you play through on hard take that graded list, find the lowest ranked ones and these will more than likely be the ones that really make a difference...and then toss the rest of the list out the window.

That being said and to tie this into the topic; I had tried the straight forward "guns a blazing" type of fight with no considerations to the very special elements that the makers added to this particular FPS (plasmids & tonics) and got slapped around like a rag doll. However when I got to the boss after playing through on hard I had a whole new respect for them, and I'll say this...throughout the entire boss fight I had only fired 5 heat-seeking rounds at the boss (nothing else), the rest of the time I used Telekinesis, Security Bull's-eye and Enrage, and I was done with the fight in less than 2 minutes (never discount the damage an exploding barrel can have with telekinesis).

So I think they could make it very hard for someone who is playing through a game like Bioshock and hasn't "got it" yet and the boss fight would seem almost impossible, yet for those who did get it, it would be like finding the weak point on the boss. But for other games that don't have something the makers really wanted you to use there definitely should be a middle ground, and it should vary from there when playing difficulties outside of normal/medium.

Avatar image for GamerPro1984
GamerPro1984

818

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#14 GamerPro1984
Member since 2006 • 818 Posts

I disagree. Final bosses are always those opposingpowers I always fill my head with questions about while playing. Final bosses should be as hard as it can be, without making it technically impossible to beat. Onthe other hand I feel they should always have a weakness of some kind. Making everything ive done worthwhile and forcing me to explore the many different tactics to find the win.

Avatar image for set101
set101

452

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#15 set101
Member since 2005 • 452 Posts
I know what you mean, but there were harder bosses in Prime 2 than the Emporer Ing... like the Spider or Boost Guardians
Avatar image for gaminggeek
gaminggeek

14223

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#16 gaminggeek
Member since 2003 • 14223 Posts

LOL once you beat the Ings 3 stages you get to fight dark samus again. With a time limit. Enjoy :P

Avatar image for Iga_Bobovic
Iga_Bobovic

518

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#17 Iga_Bobovic
Member since 2007 • 518 Posts

LOL once you beat the Ings 3 stages you get to fight dark samus again. With a time limit. Enjoy :P

gaminggeek

Yep, Dark Samus is like a glitchspot forum post, just when you think you deleted/killed it, it comes back, Twice :evil::evil:

Avatar image for Travo_basic
Travo_basic

38751

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#18 Travo_basic
Member since 2003 • 38751 Posts
I agree about Emperor Ing. But Retro overcompensated for it in Prime 3 by giving us a boss that was a pushover.
Avatar image for Mantorok
Mantorok

2558

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#19 Mantorok
Member since 2002 • 2558 Posts

LOL once you beat the Ings 3 stages you get to fight dark samus again. With a time limit. Enjoy :P

gaminggeek

It's BS, I gave up in the end with MP2, for me it killed a fantastic game and left me with sour grapes.

I have to agree with your thoughts on MP2 because I share them, however I disagree that the final boss should be easy, they should still be hard, but not MP2-hard, a bit easier.

Avatar image for Funkyhamster
Funkyhamster

17366

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#20 Funkyhamster
Member since 2005 • 17366 Posts

I agree about Emperor Ing. But Retro overcompensated for it in Prime 3 by giving us a boss that was a pushover.Travo_basic

[spoiler] Yeah, I've seen videos of MP3's last boss fight and it did seem much too easy... but that boss fight was also severely lacking in epic-ness. I mean, I would have rather had some crazy epic Dark Samus-riding-Ridley sort of thing (or whatever) that was an easier boss fight over a harder Aurora Unit fight. [/spoiler]

Avatar image for Omnicaster
Omnicaster

44

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#21 Omnicaster
Member since 2007 • 44 Posts

I disagree. If you ask me, an easy final boss ruins the game *cough* BioShock *cough*. Now, I will agree with you if the end boss is ridiculously hard, but only as a result of you being screwed for not leveling your chracters' stats correctly, or not finding the right weapons/items. I know a few RPGs that had impossible last battles, and you could fight them for an hour straight and still lose. In those extreme cases, I agree. However, as a rule, the end boss needs to be the most difficult boss of the game because... well, it's the end boss.

JustPlainLucas

See this is where games get on my nerves. Games that have several different ways for you to customize your character and all kinds of hidden extra items and content that is extremely easy to pass up while playing the game. Then you get to the end and get your butt handed to you because you decided to put more points into your sword abilities than your magic abilities. Or because you missed the most powerful gun in the game two hours ago when you didn't go look in that empty room.

If anything, I would like to see more adaptable games. Games that maybe analyze play styles and adjust accordingly to make the battle challenging yet not overwhelming for anyone. Maybe someday....

Avatar image for sexy_chimp
sexy_chimp

6457

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#22 sexy_chimp
Member since 2007 • 6457 Posts

Am I the only one that beat Metroid Prime 2?

If you think the last boss was hard, try killing it on the Hard difficulty. Now that is impossible -.-

Avatar image for deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

57548

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 19

User Lists: 0

#23 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

[QUOTE="sonicare"]Then you'll love FF X. You can't lose to the final boss - no matter how hard you try.JustPlainLucas

Well, to be honest, it was my fault for spending all that extra time making them insanely overpowered by breaking their limits and getting their ultimate weapons and whatnot. Heh, my friend and I were playing FF7 around the same time, and he beat it before me, saying that he smacked the hell out of Sephiroth. So, he came over to my house to watch me beat it, and of course, I didn't have half the crap he did, so my battle with Seph was much longer. He summoned Super Nova and my friend was just flipping out. I asked him, "He didn't do this to you?" "No! I guess I killed him too quickly.

So, I guess in RPGs, it's really about what you do to the characters or how long you spend grinding their levels/stats that determins the end boss's difficulty. At least FFXIII made their monsters level up when you did.

The first time I played through, I missed all the celestial weapons. The second time, I got most of them. You are right, it makes it insanely easy - but there's something fun about being so powerful. But that power comes with a price, some of those weapons were sooooooooooooooooo hard to get. Like Tidus's sword. Stupid birds!!!!

Avatar image for Iga_Bobovic
Iga_Bobovic

518

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#24 Iga_Bobovic
Member since 2007 • 518 Posts

Am I the only one that beat Metroid Prime 2?

If you think the last boss was hard, try killing it on the Hard difficulty. Now that is impossible -.-

sexy_chimp

Nope, I've beaten the game on hard with 100% item collection and scans. Emperor Ing isn't that hard. Try beating F-Zero GX's story mode on very hard! The secret is perseverance, never ever give up!

Edit: Dammit double post! Why, Glichtspot, why!

Edit 2: It's gone now:? Gamespot is playing with me:evil:

Avatar image for foxhound_fox
foxhound_fox

98532

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 13

User Lists: 0

#25 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
I am exactly the opposite. I want the final fight to be as challenging as it possibly can be. Makes for an epic finish to a game... when you come out of the battle, bruised, sweaty and breathing heavy you know you've just been through hell and returned to talk about it.

Metroid Prime 3 is a wonderful example of a game that fails in the end. The entire game was paced extremely well and all the bosses were extremely creative (even if all of them used the circular explosion far too much) except for the last one. Dark Samus was the main antagonist of the series, Phazon was what the series was built on... I expected it to be the toughest ride of my life... and all I got was a cake walk.

Just because of the challenge and variety (other than Prime 3 on Hyper, that's just disgusting), I seem to have liked Metroid Prime 2 the best. All the bosses were different and equally challenging and frustrating. It is so sad to see games peter off into relative simplicity without offering any sort of challenge anymore.
Avatar image for ymi_basic
ymi_basic

3685

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#26 ymi_basic
Member since 2002 • 3685 Posts
I want the final fight to be as challenging as it possibly can be.foxhound_fox
I'm glad to see that some people still want to PLAY games ... not just "experience" them.
Avatar image for OneWingedAngeI
OneWingedAngeI

9448

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

#27 OneWingedAngeI
Member since 2003 • 9448 Posts

oh hellllllllllllll no. an easyfinal boss is an insult to me. the final boss in a game is there to challenge you to put all of the skills you developed during the game to use. they should require a decent mastery of said skills in order for you to finish.

it is truly unsatisfying to build up to a final battle and get a chump as the final barrier to victory.

Avatar image for MarcusAntonius
MarcusAntonius

15667

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#28 MarcusAntonius
Member since 2004 • 15667 Posts

An easy boss is a massive letdown, to hell with that, "ruins to momentum" nonsense. If you want to make to the end, you should have to earn it.

Another reason why I appreciate games like Xenogears.

Avatar image for _Dez_
_Dez_

2398

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#29 _Dez_
Member since 2006 • 2398 Posts

In FFX, I was always under the impression that the fight before the last one was the final boss fight. It's sort of the same thing for FF7, after defeating the final boss, there's one more fight that you can't lose.

As for final boss difficulty, it needs to be challenging, otherwise it makes for an anti-climatic way to finish the game. Regarding that, I found the RE4 final boss to be pretty disappointing. If they're going to make it easy, they should at least make it look epic.

Avatar image for branketra
branketra

51726

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 9

User Lists: 9

#30 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts
I'd have to disagree with the momentum part. If the player has the skills and the character has the abilities, the most difficult part of the game should bring out the most of the player.
Avatar image for gaminggeek
gaminggeek

14223

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#31 gaminggeek
Member since 2003 • 14223 Posts
[QUOTE="gaminggeek"]

LOL once you beat the Ings 3 stages you get to fight dark samus again. With a time limit. Enjoy :P

Mantorok

It's BS, I gave up in the end with MP2, for me it killed a fantastic game and left me with sour grapes.

I have to agree with your thoughts on MP2 because I share them, however I disagree that the final boss should be easy, they should still be hard, but not MP2-hard, a bit easier.

The thing is you think its hard, I mean I made a whole thread about how hard this boss was and I never completed it because of this boss till earlier this year. Once you know what you're doing it's fine. The key is to either rapid fire his mouth or really jam your cannon right in that freaking things mouth point blank and use the annihilation cannon mix thing.