Forza 2 Demo Impressions

So what do you guys think of the Forza 2 demo that went up this morning?

To me, it feels like an incredibly deep simulation.  The handling of the cars feels utterly realistic, and while the 360 controller works okay, it's pretty hard to keep the cars on the track sometimes.  I may have to break down and get the wheel or else I'll stand no chance of competing.

The graphics are great.  They're at times beautiful, and at times just better than average.  I think if you go in expecting "photo-realism" you'll probably be disappointed, but Forza 2 is still a beautiful game.  The tracks and cars look wonderful.  Most importantly, the sense of speed is finally there because 60fps is finally there, and the game runs smoothly.  I've got a 60" screen, and when I put the game in 1st person view, it feels like I'm behind the wheel.

My only problem with the demo is that there's only 1 track.  And, while it's a great track (Mugello), I've played it a million times on the MotoGP series, so I was hoping for a little more variety.  Oh well, guess I have to wait until the game ships.

What did you guys think of the demo?

I'm too tired to write paragraphs, so I'll bullet-point it.

Pros:

• 60 frames per second.
• It seems like a very deep racing sim.
• The AI seemed to adapt to my tactics i.e. when I became more aggressive, so did they.
• Good selection of cars.
• Winning races with the driver assists turned off felt very satisfying.
  

Cons:

• It looks like the original Forza when played on a SDTV.
• The damage modelling still isn't that great. Granted, it was limited to aesthetic damage in the demo, I still felt that it was lacking. For example, I crashed into a wall at 200 kph and the bumper fell off.
• The button layout for the demo slightly annoyed me. X and B for the gear changes didn't feel right.
• Only 1 track, and a short one at that.

The pros greatly outweigh the cons, plus heaps of the features weren't there. I'll still buy it, hopefully with the wheel.

I liked it a lot. The graphics look really nice on my HD tv, the gameplay is of course top notch, the AI is phenomenal and the damage modelling is mostly amazing.

One thing I noticed was that cars didn't get damaged a lot when they hit walls compared to when they crashed with other cars. I managed to totally wreck my own and one of my AI competitors cars in one not too hard crash (bumpers, glass and metal pieces everywhere) while I barely got scratched when I crashed into a wall at 150 kph.

Too bad the demo didn't give us a chance to try out the customisation. 

I'd best describe the graphics as "hit or miss." It's actually a reversal of what I was expecting - beautiful car models with adequate environments. The environment looks great, but the car models are a tad simple and way too jaggified for a next-gen racer.

How does it play, though?

I've played both the GT5 Concept demo and now this, and I prefer Forza 2 by a landslide. Forza actually feels like a race, whereas GT5 just feels too vanilla - like a glorified time trial. And even when there are other cars on the track in previous versions of GT, it's always felt a tad sterile. I also much prefer what I've seen of the handling in Forza 2 so far - GT5 feels awkward and stiff, with cars that somehow suffer from acceleration fade to the point of being unrealistic in cornering. Not to mention that Forza 2 has online play, which if not present in GT5, will prevent me from even contemplating a purchase. Then you've got the car damage, which, while not a huge step up from the original, is still a nice feature and keeps the game from feeling like a gussied up bumper-car racer. On top of that, there's still the custom car creation tool, and now you can truly sell your creations online like the original hinted at, but never delivered. Oh, and can't forget the custom soundtrack option, which is just huge seeing as almost all racing games get played enough by me that I'm sick of the stock music selections by the ten hour mark. I also really like how this is a racer than can be played by just about anyone - not just the diehard gearheads. But it's also deep enough with the assists turned off for the aforementioned peeps.

This game feels really great, and is a nice respite from the sterile feel of the GT demo. Forza 2 feels tighter than the reigning champ in the gameplay department, it's just too bad that Turn 10 seems to have lost their edge quite a bit on the visuals.

Assuming nothing goes horribly wrong in the final version of the game, I've made my selection amongst next-gen racers.

I know the controls aren't ultra realistic but I felt they were realistic enough, somewhere in the middle of PGR and GT. I always seem to look foward to racing in Forza, however, because in GT the driving is almost too realistic. Forza 2 is realistic enough to pose a real challenge, but not a level of immense frustration, as they were times in GT were I thought it was harder to drive in the game than in real life (lol). Anyway, the level of customization is what makes this a must-buy for me, but I am also very dissappointed with the car models but not enough to sway me to not pick this up. Looks like I'll be getting this and PGR4 which btw looks amazing... LINK

I liked it a lot, and if the multiplayer is good this will be a definite purchase.  I wasn't expecting to like this so much, I prefer the more Burnout style of racers, while GT bores me to death.  

I plan to download it tonight before playing Halo.  Sucks to hear that the graphics aren't as impressive as we thought they would be.  This is still a must buy for me even before I play the demo.

I'd best describe the graphics as "hit or miss." It's actually a reversal of what I was expecting - beautiful car models with adequate environments. The environment looks great, but the car models are a tad simple and way too jaggified for a next-gen racer.

How does it play, though?

I've played both the GT5 Concept demo and now this, and I prefer Forza 2 by a landslide. Forza actually feels like a race, whereas GT5 just feels too vanilla - like a glorified time trial. And even when there are other cars on the track in previous versions of GT, it's always felt a tad sterile. I also much prefer what I've seen of the handling in Forza 2 so far - GT5 feels awkward and stiff, with cars that somehow suffer from acceleration fade to the point of being unrealistic in cornering. Not to mention that Forza 2 has online play, which if not present in GT5, will prevent me from even contemplating a purchase. Then you've got the car damage, which, while not a huge step up from the original, is still a nice feature and keeps the game from feeling like a gussied up bumper-car racer. On top of that, there's still the custom car creation tool, and now you can truly sell your creations online like the original hinted at, but never delivered. Oh, and can't forget the custom soundtrack option, which is just huge seeing as almost all racing games get played enough by me that I'm sick of the stock music selections by the ten hour mark. I also really like how this is a racer than can be played by just about anyone - not just the diehard gearheads. But it's also deep enough with the assists turned off for the aforementioned peeps.

This game feels really great, and is a nice respite from the sterile feel of the GT demo. Forza 2 feels tighter than the reigning champ in the gameplay department, it's just too bad that Turn 10 seems to have lost their edge quite a bit on the visuals.

Assuming nothing goes horribly wrong in the final version of the game, I've made my selection amongst next-gen racers.

Shame-usBlackley

Great post.  I also agree that GT feels sterile.  Forza has always felt like it has more soul and personality to it.

Also, since Forza has damage modelling, it makes me wonder something.  I remember Polyphony stating that the reason damage modelling wasn't present in the GT series was due to the fact that the car manufacturers did not want to see their cars wrecked in a game due to the impact it would have on consumers or something like that.  Well, how come Forza does it?  It makes me think that it was just an excuse Polyphony used to save them the hassle and work of implementing an accurate damage model. 

As for the demo, I have to say that I feel like I've played this game before.  It was cool no doubt, but felt like a polished, crisper, smoother running Forza.  It's just me I suppose, but how many times can we race with the same cars, on the same tracks and remain interested?

But I suppose that's the nature of simulations?

Also, since Forza has damage modelling, it makes me wonder something. I remember Polyphony stating that the reason damage modelling wasn't present in the GT series was due to the fact that the car manufacturers did not want to see their cars wrecked in a game due to the impact it would have on consumers or something like that. Well, how come Forza does it? It makes me think that it was just an excuse Polyphony used to save them the hassle and work of implementing an accurate damage model.Rekunta

As things went down the line, IIRC, part of the reason why they didn't implement damage was because they didn't feel that they could implement an effective, realistic damage modeling system, purely because from the standpoint that when you got to the higher speed races, it's not like you would be modelling some percentage of damage if you hit up against a car/wall, but having the car just be completely destroyed in one instant if they wanted to have the modelling accurate.

I've never had a chance to play any of the Forza games, so I can't comment on the quality of implementation of damage modelling in those game. 

As things went down the line, IIRC, part of the reason why they didn't implement damage was because they didn't feel that they could implement an effective, realistic damage modeling system, purely because from the standpoint that when you got to the higher speed races, it's not like you would be modelling some percentage of damage if you hit up against a car/wall, but having the car just be completely destroyed in one instant if they wanted to have the modelling accurate.

Skylock00

I honestly think it was just too much for the PS2 to handle.  Not only do you have to have the cars take damage, but they have to remain damaged throughout the rest of the race, which takes even more power.  Then, in online, you have to communicate that damage information to the rest of the drivers' consoles as well.  Of course, Gran Turismo didn't have online, so I guess that wasn't a problem.

I get what you're saying about damage in that, sure, they'd like it to be totally realistic.  But the solution to that isn't to just not have any damage.  Because some is better than none.  With none, you feel like you're driving a video game car.  You can ram your opponent or crash into a wall and you've still got a perfect looking car.  That takes you right out of the simulation.

Graphically, the GT series has always been phenomenal, but in just about every other area, they have a lot of work to do to catch up.

[QUOTE="Skylock00"]

As things went down the line, IIRC, part of the reason why they didn't implement damage was because they didn't feel that they could implement an effective, realistic damage modeling system, purely because from the standpoint that when you got to the higher speed races, it's not like you would be modelling some percentage of damage if you hit up against a car/wall, but having the car just be completely destroyed in one instant if they wanted to have the modelling accurate.

ArchieGates

I honestly think it was just too much for the PS2 to handle.  Not only do you have to have the cars take damage, but they have to remain damaged throughout the rest of the race, which takes even more power.  Then, in online, you have to communicate that damage information to the rest of the drivers' consoles as well.  Of course, Gran Turismo didn't have online, so I guess that wasn't a problem.

I get what you're saying about damage in that, sure, they'd like it to be totally realistic.  But the solution to that isn't to just not have any damage.  Because some is better than none.  With none, you feel like you're driving a video game car.  You can ram your opponent or crash into a wall and you've still got a perfect looking car.  That takes you right out of the simulation.

Graphically, the GT series has always been phenomenal, but in just about every other area, they have a lot of work to do to catch up.

Agreed.

Skylock: Yea, now I remember them saying that too, that if it can't be done to a realistic degree it shouldn't be done at all.  It makes sense, but I also agree that some is better than none. 

I think that completely being able to destroy the car would add a certain gravity and tension to the gameplay.  I have no trouble playing bumper cars with the other cars because I know at worst, the biggest consequence I'll face is spinning out or getting a dented fender that will cause the car to pull to one side for the rest of the race.  If there was a real severe penalty for being an a$$ on the track, it would lend a lot to the realism and feel of a real race.

I've been playing the original Forza for the past few weeks so my first few races felt a bit weird.

-Controls are twitchy. As in really twitchy, particularly with the race class cars. I'm guessing the higher framerate plays a part in this, but maybe sensitivity is just cranked up for the demo as well. It can be alleviated somewhat by turning stability and traction control back on, but that also dull a lot of what makes the handling so much fun. Some of it might also be the cars, as the Sagaris in particular has some serious oversteer issues where the M3 handles very nicely.

-Graphics are not particularly impressive. I have an SDTV, and there are only two real differences from the original game - it runs much smoother, and is cleaner looking. I don't really like the clean look, as it makes everything seem kind of sterile. I'll reserve judgement for the full game, though, since part of it might just be to due to the lighting conditions on the included track.

-The engine sounds are all muffled. This was a problem in the first game too, but it seems worse this time around. It's like I have cotton stuffed in my ears.

-Love the menu system, where all the extraneous crap disappears as you rotate the car around and you're left with a nice clean black background and the car and nothing else. Not such a fan of the clunky left/right car selection icons, though. I hope the career mode offers some good sorting options for massive garages.

I haven't tried out all the cars yet, of course, and I've only spent about an hour with it. I'd imagine it will grow on me, and I'll probably get used to the handling differences between the two games. I should try playing it with ABS off, too, and see if that is any more viable than the original (maybe some subtle additional rumble effects to mimick brakes locking).  Everything else goes off, though, especially that suggested line.

  

Assuming nothing goes horribly wrong in the final version of the game, I've made my selection amongst next-gen racers.

Shame-usBlackley

Same here. We'll definitely have to get a Gamespot/OGU thing going once the game hits.

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]  

Assuming nothing goes horribly wrong in the final version of the game, I've made my selection amongst next-gen racers.

DJ_Lae

Same here. We'll definitely have to get a Gamespot/OGU thing going once the game hits.

Sounds good.  We should start a thread at the OGU when the game launches and have a race night.

Well, I picked up the steering wheel last night and gave the demo a spin.  Man, it is a lot different.  Very immersive, but also really difficult at the beginning.  I was spinning out like crazy at the beginning until I learned how to steer properly.

The force feedback is implemented very well.  The wheel pulls and tightens just how a real car does, especially when you start to lose control.  I think playing the game will make me a better driver.

I don't know if I'll be able to get the same times I got with a controller, but maybe as my skills improve it will become second nature to me.

[QUOTE="DJ_Lae"][QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]  

Assuming nothing goes horribly wrong in the final version of the game, I've made my selection amongst next-gen racers.

danmp18

Same here. We'll definitely have to get a Gamespot/OGU thing going once the game hits.

Sounds good.  We should start a thread at the OGU when the game launches and have a race night.

We used to have Forza Fridays with the first game.  I'm sure we'll have a Forza 2 night.  Though Fridays don't work so well for me.  Maybe during the week?

Well, I picked up the steering wheel last night and gave the demo a spin.  Man, it is a lot different.  Very immersive, but also really difficult at the beginning.  I was spinning out like crazy at the beginning until I learned how to steer properly.

The force feedback is implemented very well.  The wheel pulls and tightens just how a real car does, especially when you start to lose control.  I think playing the game will make me a better driver.

I don't know if I'll be able to get the same times I got with a controller, but maybe as my skills improve it will become second nature to me.

ArchieGates

[QUOTE="ArchieGates"][QUOTE="Skylock00"]

As things went down the line, IIRC, part of the reason why they didn't implement damage was because they didn't feel that they could implement an effective, realistic damage modeling system, purely because from the standpoint that when you got to the higher speed races, it's not like you would be modelling some percentage of damage if you hit up against a car/wall, but having the car just be completely destroyed in one instant if they wanted to have the modelling accurate.

Rekunta

I honestly think it was just too much for the PS2 to handle.  Not only do you have to have the cars take damage, but they have to remain damaged throughout the rest of the race, which takes even more power.  Then, in online, you have to communicate that damage information to the rest of the drivers' consoles as well.  Of course, Gran Turismo didn't have online, so I guess that wasn't a problem.

I get what you're saying about damage in that, sure, they'd like it to be totally realistic.  But the solution to that isn't to just not have any damage.  Because some is better than none.  With none, you feel like you're driving a video game car.  You can ram your opponent or crash into a wall and you've still got a perfect looking car.  That takes you right out of the simulation.

Graphically, the GT series has always been phenomenal, but in just about every other area, they have a lot of work to do to catch up.

Agreed.

Skylock: Yea, now I remember them saying that too, that if it can't be done to a realistic degree it shouldn't be done at all.  It makes sense, but I also agree that some is better than none. 

I think that completely being able to destroy the car would add a certain gravity and tension to the gameplay.  I have no trouble playing bumper cars with the other cars because I know at worst, the biggest consequence I'll face is spinning out or getting a dented fender that will cause the car to pull to one side for the rest of the race.  If there was a real severe penalty for being an a$$ on the track, it would lend a lot to the realism and feel of a real race.

IIRC the damage degrees are cutomizable.  I'm sure the "realistic" setting will render your car useless should you hit a wall at 200 mph.  Not sure they are allowed to do the same to the model as I heard there are some stipulations as to how far they are allowed to take the destruction level from the manufactuers.

ArchieGates wrote: "I don't know if I'll be able to get the same times I got with a controller, but maybe as my skills improve it will become second nature to me."

Short term? No.

Long term? With out a doubt.

Using a wheel gives you way more better range of motion. Which equates to better turning ability. Which then translates to better overall "times".

(Wheels>Analog pads>Digital pads.)

Note: This theory applies to all 4-wheel racers. Sims or arcade.

(Arcade? Yes, arcade! After all. When was the last time a driving game located in a arcade was controlled with a game pad?)

Ps, Shifting (All racers) long term? Manual>Automatic. (Once again better overall long tern "times".) :)

How did you end up spinning out? If you turn off the traction helper does it make it like driving a real car?The_Duke_Lives

Depends on the car, since most newer ones come with some forms of traction control or ABS. I have no idea how much stronger the game's assists are, though.

The game is much more interesting with all the assists off, of course. Traction control makes a huge difference on hugely powerful rear-wheel drive cars off the line or when you gun it coming out of a corner, since you have to be really gentle with the gas.

Stability control...well, it's one of the easier ones to live without. Can't drift at all without it (I think it applies the brakes when the wheels lose traction at speed).

ABS off is killer, though. It's almost impossible to tell when the brakes lock up through the controller - maybe the wheel is better for that. All you have to go on is the screeching of your tires, and during replays it's extremely obvious when you've locked the brakes. You get used to it after a while, though I prefer to have it on as most cars have ABS anyway.

its alright but i expected more damage and better graphics