HP Bar or regeneration?

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ElArab

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#1 ElArab
Member since 2007 • 5754 Posts

I remember I always thought the whole HP bar was a little unrealistic, and then I played CoD2 and I thought the health system was pretty good (not 100% realistic, but it was an ok system) such as simply getting scratched by a bunch of bullets won't do as much damage, but 1 direct hit will put you in some real danger, so you better get to cover and fight through the pain. Other games like this are GoW and RS: Vegas. (I think vegas is the one that did the best with the system)

I remember when I was playing MGS3, that it had the new "heal your own bullet wounds" system, but I always found it funny because snake would get alot of hits in the groin and the head, and I thought to myself "I know snakes a badass, but he doesn't have painkillers or anything, how in the hell would he be able to get a bullet out with his knife, if it's lodged in his brain, and his groin! (*OW*) ?" the damage system for enemies in MGS3 was better than Snakes damage system, if you shot a guy in the arm, he would fire his weapon with one hand, if you shot them in the groin, he'd cup himself and drop dead, and if you shot them in the leg, or the knee, they'd start limping. So if a groin shot and head shot kills and enemy in one hit, why not Snake?

Then I found the answer....SNAKE HAS A HEALTH BAR!!! If his HP isn't down, then he has nothing to worry about! he can keep on fightin'! Bullet in the groin or not.

So I ask you, do you think that pretty much all games should get rid of the "health bar and health kits,food,painkillers etc." and should they just replace it with regenerating health, or keep the traditional HP bar? or both perhaps....

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SemiMaster

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#2 SemiMaster
Member since 2006 • 19011 Posts

A funny thing this topic. You know that not only FPS games have had to deal with how to keep track of life and how you heal it, but lots of RPGs offer a very peculiar way.

A few examples...

1.) Earthbound (AKA Mother) : Say you have... oh 500 HP, and you get rocked for like 560 damage. You don't instantly die as would many games such as Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Tales of Whatever. Instead your life gauge slips slowly like a gas gauge, but instead of going up, it goes down to zero. If you act quickly enough, you can heal yourself before dying. So that adds a very strategic if not hasty element to the game.

2.) Warsong (AKA Langrisser) : The game was like Final Fantasy Tactics or Shining Force or whatever strategy RPG you want to play, but it had many modifiers based on what land you were on, whether open plains, in the forest, in a turret, etc. This would affect your defense rate (simply a probability engine). But you had 10 characters (or a Lord with 10 hp). You could in theory have been wiped out in one hit, or an unlucky attack you can lose more than probabilty says. It was a very chancy game, where sometimes you got screwed, but sometimes you got lucky, and if you played the odds right though, you'd almost never lose because no way if you were well defended with a high level commanding unit giving you bonuses would you die. Again it's not a game like Fire Emblem where you do 2x attacks at 15 damage each with 99% chance to hit, no, this was like a mini battle, and wasn't a clear cut oh, 5 damage = people dead.

3.) Bushido Blade : You had absolutely no health bar. One attack would easily kill you, or disable an arm or leg. But sadly, the game was so random that you could hack someone for ever and never kill them, but one stab from them while one leg was cut and the other arm broken would kill you. It was too random, although an interesting attempt at realism and a way to get rid of the standard life bar.

Those are 3 interesting ways to look at things beyond the {----------------} or the refilling lifebar. I'm not saying they're bad, but each game with different types of mechanics and stat keeping has a very different role in how the game is played out.

But to address your issue of Call of Duty... life bars would suffice, because I don't know many people who can get shot a few times, huddle in the corner and then get back into combat.

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FlaminDeath

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#3 FlaminDeath
Member since 2004 • 4181 Posts
thats one thing i really hate about mmorpgs is the your enemy has 15000000 health and you do 1000 dmg a shot but he heals so it takes 50 hrs to kill things i prefer the regeneration system like halo or gears
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Legendaryscmt

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#4 Legendaryscmt
Member since 2005 • 12532 Posts
To me it depends on the game. If it's a FPS, then the regeneration works great. However, if it's more of a survival kind of game, I think it would be more realistic if you had to heal your own wounds in certain ways like in Snake Eater.
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SpazH3d

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#5 SpazH3d
Member since 2005 • 1739 Posts
I think regenerating health is lame. Medkits and bandages FTW. A good example is Call of Cthulhu.
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ElArab

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#6 ElArab
Member since 2007 • 5754 Posts

yeah the Veteran difficulty in CoD tends to be the only realistic one, where you can pretty much take only 1 or 2 shots. On easy bullet wounds are like bee stings. I know if I got shot I'd just drop to the ground or get behind something and then just use all the energy I have left in me to scream "MEDIC!"

and I'm glad you brought up RPGs and their styles of gameplay, and how sometimes a health bar is just what's needed to cut it, but now that I think about it, a game like Final Fantasy with it's whole turn based system, is pretty much like a board game, so that's where basic math applies, so I guess realism wouldn't be a big deal in a game like that, and that's another strategic element in the game anyway.

Warsong reminds me of Dawn of War (the RTS). Since it was based off a board game, it had a "morale" and "squad health" bar, but it had a pretty good way of managing health, lets say you put a squad in a crater that was just created by an artillery shell, if you stuck the squad in that crater, they would be in "cover" and would take less damage unless a shell dropped on them or an opposing squad came into the crater and engaged in melee, or if you had to move through a river or some kind of body of water that you would be knee deep in, the squad would be in "negative cover" because they would be more succesptible to enemy fire and would be moving slower because they are in the water.

So I guess a board game/strategic style game like Dawn of War and Final Fantasy (and I like Earthbound's "health bar" system, I think it's kind of creative, it's like how to "defend" from an attack that would usually overkill you.) would be MUCH better off with the "health bar" system.

Yet what about games that try very hard to aim at realisim like Bushido? Crysis has that "nanosuit" thing the main character wears, where he can upgrade his armor or strength so he can take more hits, like when he is badly hurt, he ups his strength so his health regenerates faster, or if you are outgunned you can up your armor so that you can take more hits.

Yet GoW (gears of war) is pretty much like what you said, "ow, I took about 20 shots to the chest, but that red circle in the screen didn't fill all the way up, I'll just chill here for a minute and then I can get back in the fight!"

RS: Vegas is the best IMO because it all depends on what body parts you have armor on, how good that armor is, and of course, where the bullet hits you, if you're all heavy duty and wearing alot of special body armor (assault armor vs. recon armor) then you'll be damn near bullet proof, but slow as a turtle, and vice versa.

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Vampyronight

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#7 Vampyronight
Member since 2002 • 3933 Posts

I'm getting really sick of the regeneration crap being constantly used in games. It made sense when Master Chief had it and a few other games have come up with reasonable stories as to why that happens...but CoD3? Yes, I remember all the stories from my grandfather how he would be shot a few times, hide behind a wall and then he'd be good to go for a further assault against the nazis.

Granted, having an HP bar doesn't exactly make it more realistic, it's better than regenerating health. Though I think it could be better used- instead of just having a bar/number represent your health, your characters ability to move and aim should be affected based on how much damage you take. If you don't get to some place where you can get patched up/find a med kit for yourself, you may be one shot from death.

I do like the way some of the team-based games are handling it, where you're only allowed a limited number of hits before one of your teammates needs to come rescue you. I really like the way Left 4 Dead in particular is doing it.

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ElArab

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#8 ElArab
Member since 2007 • 5754 Posts

Granted, having an HP bar doesn't exactly make it more realistic, it's better than regenerating health. Though I think it could be better used- instead of just having a bar/number represent your health, your characters ability to move and aim should be affected based on how much damage you take. If you don't get to some place where you can get patched up/find a med kit for yourself, you may be one shot from death.

I do like the way some of the team-based games are handling it, where you're only allowed a limited number of hits before one of your teammates needs to come rescue you. I really like the way Left 4 Dead in particular is doing it.

Vampyronight

Yeah which reminds me of F.E.A.R. where you did have a "health bar", and the number could be improved finding certain items, but lets say your health went up to 100, well, when you get shot in the game, a considerable chunk is taken from it, but if it falls under 20, if you have a quick place to hide and just catch your breath, it will regenerate back to 20, but no more, you need to use a medkit (which you carry with you and also find throughout the game.) to fill it back up. Which I find more realistic.

how is Left 4 Dead doing it? I haven't seen that much gameplay footage or even read that many articles about it :|

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1005

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#9 1005
Member since 2003 • 3738 Posts

I'd rather have my HealthPoints regenerate than have to keep picking up and using/storing medical kits or health packs etc. We've all been in situations in games where your on below 50%HP and have a boss fight or really hard fight coming up and you haven't got any items to restore HP so you end up 1.) Dying and retrying only to die again 2.) going back to an older save and hoping to not be in the same predicament when you reach the same point.

Regenerating HP is a good thing in games if done correctly, IE it only regens when your not in a fight and just walking around or if your behind cover during a fight.

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ElArab

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#11 ElArab
Member since 2007 • 5754 Posts

I'd rather have my HealthPoints regenerate than have to keep picking up and using/storing medical kits or health packs etc. We've all been in situations in games where your on below 50%HP and have a boss fight or really hard fight coming up and you haven't got any items to restore HP so you end up 1.) Dying and retrying only to die again 2.) going back to an older save and hoping to not be in the same predicament when you reach the same point.

Regenerating HP is a good thing in games if done correctly, IE it only regens when your not in a fight and just walking around or if your behind cover during a fight.

1005

yeah that is rather convenient, and that reminds of RE4, I liked how there were those ways an enemy could kill you no matter how many "yellow herbs" you have used, you could get hit with a bunch of slashes and be badly hurt, but you'd still be alive, and step in a bear trap but no matter what, it couldn't kill you, but if you ever got chainsawed, impaled, etc. then the screen that points out the obvious appears. ('you are dead!...continue?)

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Vampyronight

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#12 Vampyronight
Member since 2002 • 3933 Posts
[QUOTE="Vampyronight"]

Granted, having an HP bar doesn't exactly make it more realistic, it's better than regenerating health. Though I think it could be better used- instead of just having a bar/number represent your health, your characters ability to move and aim should be affected based on how much damage you take. If you don't get to some place where you can get patched up/find a med kit for yourself, you may be one shot from death.

I do like the way some of the team-based games are handling it, where you're only allowed a limited number of hits before one of your teammates needs to come rescue you. I really like the way Left 4 Dead in particular is doing it.

ElArab

Yeah which reminds me of F.E.A.R. where you did have a "health bar", and the number could be improved finding certain items, but lets say your health went up to 100, well, when you get shot in the game, a considerable chunk is taken from it, but if it falls under 20, if you have a quick place to hide and just catch your breath, it will regenerate back to 20, but no more, you need to use a medkit (which you carry with you and also find throughout the game.) to fill it back up. Which I find more realistic.

how is Left 4 Dead doing it? I haven't seen that much gameplay footage or even read that many articles about it :|

Left 4 Dead is a PC/360 game where 4 people will work together to escape a city infested by zombies (and those zombies are mega-fast). Anyway, you have med kits which you can take with you and heal yourself whenever you want (though you'll need a few seconds). Before you die, though, you'll get knocked to the ground where you're not able to move but you can still look around and fire. Now, those zombies will swarm you but it gives you and your team a chance to wipe out whatever zombies are nearby. Then they can come over and heal you up to maybe 20% or 30% of your maximum health.

So it's a bit similar to fear, but there's a team aspect to it. And I do like the touch of being unable to move but still able to fire.

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Skie7

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#13 Skie7
Member since 2005 • 1031 Posts

It depends on the game, I thought CoD one had better multiplayer than CoD2 and one of the big reasons was the stupid health regeneration. But, I tended to play on servers where there weren't health packs and head shots were an instant kill. Honestly, I'd like physics and armor to play into it a little more where the game actually calculates what happens with the bullet and affects your health accurately.

With fantasy or science fiction games, then things like shield/health regeneration are fine with me. But, even then it has to fit the game. Tribes would be terrible with health that gradually restores.

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AtomicTangerine

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#14 AtomicTangerine
Member since 2005 • 4413 Posts

My favorite argument against the regenerating health is that it is "unrealistic." I think it's hilarious because that supposes thatusing bandages and medicationto keep you in fighting condition in a warzone is realistic.I don't see how recovering health after not getting shot for a fewmoments is any less realistic than taking a bullet to the chest and fixing it up with some gauze.

The reason I like it though is because I never have to look for bandages or painkillers or anything like that. Health bars have their place, but especially in online games, being at full health for every encounter makes it so you never run into an enemy with only 1 HP left. I also find it's a much better way of having firefights feeling real without having realistic recoil.

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cookoo4cocopuff

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#15 cookoo4cocopuff
Member since 2005 • 793 Posts
its all in the game, shooters should stick with regenerating health and RPGs should have regenerating health and healling items.
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erawsd

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#16 erawsd
Member since 2002 • 6930 Posts
I've never been a fan of regenerating HP. I feel that it takes away some of the intensity and makes the games eaiser.
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Old_Gooseberry

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#17 Old_Gooseberry
Member since 2002 • 3958 Posts

I like regenerating HP. I wish more games had it... I always hated in Jagged Alliance after taking damage, you had to put that person out for the entire day and have another character heal his hps back up. Realistic, but extremely annoying. Basically the game came down to quicksaving before every move, just incase you got hit. Getting hit badly, pretty much that character is out for at least a day of healing.

Realism should only have a place in some areas of games, not to the extent when it ruins your fun and makes things tedious or turns other activities into chores.

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foxhound_fox

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#18 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
Neither. I'd much rather have realistic body damage. You get shot in the head or major internal organ, you're dead. Get shot in a limb or organ-less torso, wounded but not dead. Only minor injuries can be healed over time and the only true way of surviving is to avoid them altogether.
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Planeforger

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#19 Planeforger
Member since 2004 • 20129 Posts

I think regenerating health is lame. Medkits and bandages FTW. A good example is Call of Cthulhu.SpazH3d

Yeah, when you get hit, your health should start degenerating, not regenerating.
I can't see the appeal of the regenerating system - where's the fun or challenge if a game isn't going to punish you for your mistakes?

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Robot_Vampire

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#20 Robot_Vampire
Member since 2007 • 875 Posts

Yeah which reminds me of F.E.A.R. where you did have a "health bar", and the number could be improved finding certain items, but lets say your health went up to 100, well, when you get shot in the game, a considerable chunk is taken from it, but if it falls under 20, if you have a quick place to hide and just catch your breath, it will regenerate back to 20, but no more, you need to use a medkit (which you carry with you and also find throughout the game.) to fill it back up. Which I find more realistic.

how is Left 4 Dead doing it? I haven't seen that much gameplay footage or even read that many articles about it :|

ElArab

That's actually a good point, Iliked it how FEAR did that. I'm a fan of health bars as I consider that to be the way a game should be played, I was brought up playing games with health bars and when regenerative health it made games to easy. Imagine how hard Gears of War would be without regenerative health? That said, I think it's OK to use it if you can't take a lot of damage before you die.

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UpInFlames

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#21 UpInFlames
Member since 2004 • 13301 Posts

It really depends of the game, means of healing should make sense in the gameworld. Regenerating health would work well in, say, Half-Life since Gordon wears a suit, but it's downright stupid in WWII games such as Call of Duty.

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Bromz

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#22 Bromz
Member since 2005 • 1639 Posts
I'm interested to see how MoH: Airbourne will work. Its a hybrid between cod2 style regen health and a health bar. The bar is split into five (something like that) parts, the parts will regen but its totally depleted its gone, you need a health pack to get it back. Well thats my understanding of it, looks interesting.
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Korubi

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#23 Korubi
Member since 2003 • 261 Posts

It really depends of the game, means of healing should make sense in the gameworld. Regenerating health would work well in, say, Half-Life since Gordon wears a suit, but it's downright stupid in WWII games such as Call of Duty.

UpInFlames

It's stupid if you're claiming complete realism, but if you're going for what's more fun, does it really matter?

I thought the healing system in Metal Gear Solid 3 was a clever idea, and probably the most realistic health system I'd ever played, but it just wasn't fun. It was cool the first few times disloding the bullets with the knife, applying ointment, bandages, etc, but going through the process after every wound got tedious. On the other hand, this made me avoid getting hurt more. You really felt the consequences of your mistakes.

Ultimately I don't think there's any health system that's clearly the best. It really depends on the type of game. Regeneration systems work well for FPS games because they give a sense of urgency to get cover or stay out of harm's way when you're in danger. HP works better for most games that take more time and startegy like RPGs.

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Korubi

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#24 Korubi
Member since 2003 • 261 Posts

I'm interested to see how MoH: Airbourne will work. Its a hybrid between cod2 style regen health and a health bar. The bar is split into five (something like that) parts, the parts will regen but its totally depleted its gone, you need a health pack to get it back. Well thats my understanding of it, looks interesting.Bromz

That's like how Perfect Dark Zero works. It's not broken up into parts, but you have a health bar and it regenerates but you can also lose parts of the bar permanently.

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Skie7

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#25 Skie7
Member since 2005 • 1031 Posts

Ultimately I don't think there's any health system that's clearly the best. It really depends on the type of game. Regeneration systems work well for FPS games because they give a sense of urgency to get cover or stay out of harm's way when you're in danger. HP works better for most games that take more time and startegy like RPGs. Korubi

Yeah, but with the regeneration systems you either have to kill them or risk them being back at full health. That's rubish. If my head shot from a good distance away knocks you down to a hair of your life and you jump behind cover, if I hit you with a second shot when you pop out of cover you should be dead. It has nothing to do with realism, it has to do with people constantly running for cover for a regen making things like bolt-action rifles crap. I shoot and hit, you hide while I move the next bullet to the chamber, you regen and move out of cover.

Thinking more on it, the regen systems are tailored to people who suck at FPS and need to be able to get close enough to spray and pray to have any chance.

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metroid_dragon

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#26 metroid_dragon
Member since 2003 • 1964 Posts

It's completly dependant on the game itself, what works and feels better for it. For the most part I like Health Bars better because they are more (though still far from) realistic.

If you're playing a fast 3d run N' gun game, then you're going to want regen, if you're playing an FPS game, then Health works best.

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BobZany

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#27 BobZany
Member since 2004 • 1407 Posts

Auto-regeneration is great for RPGs. Especially of the MMO variety. Having a constant regeneration rate means not getting into fights with near zero hp as mentioned earlier. It also saves time if you don't have to rest, and money if you don't have to use healing potions and what not all the time.

I kind of like the trend in FPSs, though I do agree that it makes thing a little too easy. I disagree that it's necessarily less realistic. You're not going to be able to heal yourself by ducking for cover, but you're also not going to be instantly healed after picking up or walking across a med pack. It does make more sense in a game like Halo, I'll agree. But it's nice if you can heal up without having to hunt around for healing kits. Especially when it's right before some big battle or boss fight.

The PDZ setup was a nice compromise of the two. You could heal automatically, but depending on how much damage you took before regeneration started your health bar was reduced to a certain point.

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FireBurger

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#28 FireBurger
Member since 2005 • 1566 Posts

I like the Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway and Uncharted: Drake's Fortune health systems. They're basically regenerating health bars, but with a realistic twist.

When you're out in the open and being shot at, your not actually being hit, but the screen goes red like it would in a normal "regenerating-health" game, and this represents the danger. If you stay out in the "danger area" too long, your luck will evetually run out, and you'll take one or two bullets and die. So, it's basically regenerating health, but with a more realistic twist because it's only one or two bullets that kills you.

If that's confusing just watch a gameplay demonstration of either one.

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Korubi

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#29 Korubi
Member since 2003 • 261 Posts

[QUOTE="Korubi"]Ultimately I don't think there's any health system that's clearly the best. It really depends on the type of game. Regeneration systems work well for FPS games because they give a sense of urgency to get cover or stay out of harm's way when you're in danger. HP works better for most games that take more time and startegy like RPGs. Skie7

Yeah, but with the regeneration systems you either have to kill them or risk them being back at full health. That's rubish. If my head shot from a good distance away knocks you down to a hair of your life and you jump behind cover, if I hit you with a second shot when you pop out of cover you should be dead. It has nothing to do with realism, it has to do with people constantly running for cover for a regen making things like bolt-action rifles crap. I shoot and hit, you hide while I move the next bullet to the chamber, you regen and move out of cover.

Thinking more on it, the regen systems are tailored to people who suck at FPS and need to be able to get close enough to spray and pray to have any chance.

I can't think of a game I've played in recent memory where head shot isn't an instant kill ;)

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branketra

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#30 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

I've never been a fan or an 'anti of the health bar system..until I saw an alternative; the regenerative system.

I think it works well in Gears of War, especially multiplayer. Sometimes I don't think there's a way for me to win without taking some heavy fire, so I run straight through it to another piece of cover. It's pretty cool not having to turn around and find a health pack, but I can understand a futuristic game that has the credential to make the tech for it believable(It may be the in past but the KOTOR games. Halo.).

Either way, it all about the situation where they're implemented.

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ElArab

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#31 ElArab
Member since 2007 • 5754 Posts

So what I've gotten from this is that...

If you're gonna put "regenerating health" in the game, then it should make sense in that games world, like how in halo, half life, and crysis, there is some tech. that "defies the laws of nature." yet in Gears ofWar and Call of Duty, as long as 1 too many bullets don't hit you, and you have a little break inbetween volleys of fire, then you'll be back at full health. which I sympathise with Skie7 in multiplayer because I like using high powered rifles too, but if you don't kill someone "fast enough" then they can take as many Kar98 bullet hits as they want. So, lets just hope that games like that will have a better "regen" system, because hey, sometimes you just HAVE to take a hit, I don't think I've ever played GoW or CoD untouched by the enemy.

but if its an RTS or an RPG, then a health bar is appropriate, because of it's "board game coming to life" type of style (like Oblivion, where you can get hit by a Warhammer 15 times and still be ok. and FF series, which is pretty obvious.)

I'm starting to like the ways where you have a health bar that regenerates, but it never regenerates fully, unless you use a medkit (which I also like the system where you keep some medkits with you.) but left 4 dead seams to be one of the only games out there where medkits are not instantly applied, where you actually need a few seconds to apply the medkit. Oh, there was a half-life mod called firearms where you had to find a nice non-combat infested area to apply your bandages and morhpine and such.

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ViscaBarcaInter

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#32 ViscaBarcaInter
Member since 2007 • 382 Posts

I don't have a problem with regenerative health. The games are supposed to be enjoyable first, and realistic second. True realism in CoD or something like that simply wouldn't be playable for 99% of all humans. Health bars are annoying when fluke shots and explosions can take chunks of life and you need to go about searching for health packs. Which also aren't realistic by the way, nothing "true" about searching empty battlefields or alien ships and finding tons of medical supplies. A game like R6 Vegas has fine tuned the regen system to make it enjoyable whilst still maintaining the challenge. Single shots can kill, and a half second burst of fire to the body can kill you before you even know you're being shot at, but far away shots that graze you can be regenerated. That's infinitely more enjoyable to me than having to sneak around an already dangerous level hoping to find health before you get shot again.

Realism in terms of taking shots can't be an issue if games are going to be truly enjoyable for the vast majority of players. Either system can work well if it is balanced within the game play.

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AtomicTangerine

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#33 AtomicTangerine
Member since 2005 • 4413 Posts
I love how Gears of War is being brought up since that game is so over-the-top. Not to mention that there are tons of weapons in that game that are one hit kills, and many that down in a few shots. Personally, having Cole get downed in a game and have a teammate revive him while he yells, "There ain't enough bullets to stop this man!" is the kind of awesome that we don't get nearly enough this side of the 80s.
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KnightsofRound

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#34 KnightsofRound
Member since 2004 • 5819 Posts

I'd rather have my HealthPoints regenerate than have to keep picking up and using/storing medical kits or health packs etc. We've all been in situations in games where your on below 50%HP and have a boss fight or really hard fight coming up and you haven't got any items to restore HP so you end up 1.) Dying and retrying only to die again 2.) going back to an older save and hoping to not be in the same predicament when you reach the same point.

Regenerating HP is a good thing in games if done correctly, IE it only regens when your not in a fight and just walking around or if your behind cover during a fight.

1005

This happened to me in Onimusha: Dawn of Dreams. It's happend twice now where I've gotten stuck on boss fights because I don't have enough health/healing items and had to go back to an earlier save and try to conserve them better.

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soulsdeparting

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#35 soulsdeparting
Member since 2006 • 1537 Posts
it doesnt matter