Japanese Storytelling

I am not sure if translation is the culprit or simply bad storytelling and dialogue. It just seems like every Japanese developed game is derived from the same storyline with near identical characters with dialogue that painfully mechanical and cliche. I have yet to encounter characters in any of their games that are not one dimensional. Sometimes I wonder if they even bother to try. The concepts behind the story normally outweighs the execution, thus undermining what could have been a terrific story and experience. Or is it that I am simply playing the wrong games? :o

What spurred this is my recent completion of Ys Origin.

There definitely are some japanese games with believable characters and challeging plots (the Yakuza series for one), but for the most part you are right: the brain is in total autopilot with most japanese game scripts.Black_Knight_00

I was hoping that I was wrong so that I can play some of their better games. I would see if I can get a hold of  one of the Yakuza(s).

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]There definitely are some japanese games with believable characters and challeging plots (the Yakuza series for one), but for the most part you are right: the brain is in total autopilot with most japanese game scripts.Pedro

I was hoping that I was wrong so that I can play some of their better games. I would see if I can get a hold of  one of the Yakuza(s).

I was hoping that I was wrong so that I can play some of their better games. I would see if I can get a hold of  one of the Yakuza(s).

Pedro

I played the first Yakuza and it has absolutely horrible writing and storytelling and awful characters and voice acting. Like Shenmue awful.

I thought Okami had really good writing. If you have an interest in Japanese mythology, this part is handled really well. I wouldn't call the characters deep, but at the very least they're charming. Also, the characters aren't voiced, it's all in text with gibberish sounds which annoys some people, but personally I didn't mind it at all, it somehow fits well with the overall game.

Also, Katamari Damacy. The writing and the characters are absolutely hilarious if you can get into the bonkers story.

Apart from those two, all Japanese-developed games I've played had really weak writing and awful voice acting.

i love the stories in ico, shadow of the colossus, dark souls, and demon's souls. LoG-Sacrament

I would say the thing all these games have in common is minimal writing, which seems to be the major point of dispute in the above posts. But it works. Ico and SotC are amazingly evocative game experiences.

Some companies in the past did quality jobs with the localization of Japanese titles. Working Designs is probably the best example. Their games on SCD and beyond are just hilarious at times, but it was also very easy to become invested in the characterizations. I can't think of any games in recent memory that are nearly as fun or well written as titles like Lunar and Vay and everything else WD did. In fact, anymore, a game being from a Japanese developer tends to turn me off, because I've just come to expect silly, anime-inspired narratives. RE used to be a great schlock-fest, but they can't even seem to get that right anymore.

I think the story concepts for most of them are fine, but the script/dialogue translations blemish a good deal of them. Some of the more successful ones I think are the ones translated into archaic English scripts that deviate from the straightfoward nature of the original Japanese scripts(like the Matsuno directed RPGs such as FF12, Vagrant Story, and FF Tactics: WotL).

I thought Okami had really good writing. If you have an interest in Japanese mythology, this part is handled really well. I wouldn't call the characters deep, but at the very least they're charming. Also, the characters aren't voiced, it's all in text with gibberish sounds which annoys some people, but personally I didn't mind it at all, it somehow fits well with the overall game.

 

UpInFlames

Agreed.

Keep in mind that the game market in Japan is dominated by teens, thus games designed specifically for the Japanese market are designed to essentially be playable manga with characters and themes designed to appeal to Japanese teens.  There are games with serious themes and characters more appealing to adults, like the previously mentioned Yakuza series, the odd Deadly Premonition, and the noteworthy Metal Gear Solid series, to name a few.

that is all.

Uh. What the hell Japanese games have you been playing? I think Japanese devs are better at storytelling than western devs.

Also, yes, this argument is easily undermined by 999, which has quite possible the best writing of any game ever.

Uh. What the hell Japanese games have you been playing? I think Japanese devs are better at storytelling than western devs.

Also, yes, this argument is easily undermined by 999, which has quite possible the best writing of any game ever.

turtlethetaffer

The same question can be posed to you? What games have you been playing? 

i love the stories in ico, shadow of the colossus, dark souls, and demon's souls. a lot of the zelda games have good, if not unconventional like you seem to be looking for, stories.LoG-Sacrament

You are refering to games where the story is implied or almost non existent.

Oh there are many more games that have plots that don't make you roll your eyes. Nier, Metal Gear, Eternal Sonata, just to name a few. Sadly they are a minority, at least by my standards.Black_Knight_00

I am currently playing Nier. The story is bearable at the moment, I hoping it does become grinding later on. Metal Gear series have never interest me and Eternal Sonata dialogue and characters were annoying. 

[QUOTE="LoG-Sacrament"]i love the stories in ico, shadow of the colossus, dark souls, and demon's souls. a lot of the zelda games have good, if not unconventional like you seem to be looking for, stories.Pedro

You are refering to games where the story is implied or almost non existent.

you never played persona 3 or 4? or dragon quest 8? or a game from the yakuza series? There are plenty of japanese titles that aren't cookie cutter and establish themselves from the rest of the pack. Just gotta find them but yeah I agree that most japanese titles follow the same beats. It's one of main criticisms of eastern developers.

Why the heck has no one mentioned Persona 2, 3, and 4? :o Also try Catherine. Or just about anything by Atlus.

And if we're talking older games then how about Xenogears, Xenosaga, Tales of the Abyss, Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XII, the .hack games? And...there are quite a few that I haven't played but have been lauded for their great stories.

I find most Japanese games are very fun to play (i.e Disgaea, La Pucelle Tactics, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, Neptunia, Kingdom Hearts after 2, FF XIII) but the stories aren't really anything to write home about. Then again, the exact same thing can be said about Western games. Video game stories as a whole have a long way to go.

I think the biggest culprit is the original script/writing. A lot of Japanese developers are still writing for high school kids with low standards. That and the fact that there is a whole industry built up around drawing, scripting and voicing character archetypes.

Not that having an archetype can be a bad thing. In fact having them can make it easier to focus on writing brilliant inter-play between characters (the friendly antagonism in games like Trails in the Sky and Persona 4 comes to mind).  In fact I can't think of many western games where the interplay between the characters is the highlight rather than the character themselves (Sten accepting Morrigan's advances and telling her brace herself for 'destruction' in Dragon Age...that THAT is priceless).

Having said that I wouldn't say the characters in Yakuza games are at all multi-dimensional. Kiryuu IMO has stepped over the line from being badass to just being comically macho. Akiyama is becoming the new poster child of that franchise for a reason.

The general writing quality in a lot of these games though is honestly sub-par. And I mean sub-par even in Japanese; as in you can tell the writing is from a game just from reading it.

[QUOTE="Pedro"]

I was hoping that I was wrong so that I can play some of their better games. I would see if I can get a hold of  one of the Yakuza(s).

UpInFlames

I played the first Yakuza and it has absolutely horrible writing and storytelling and awful characters and voice acting. Like Shenmue awful.

I thought Okami had really good writing. If you have an interest in Japanese mythology, this part is handled really well. I wouldn't call the characters deep, but at the very least they're charming. Also, the characters aren't voiced, it's all in text with gibberish sounds which annoys some people, but personally I didn't mind it at all, it somehow fits well with the overall game.

Also, Katamari Damacy. The writing and the characters are absolutely hilarious if you can get into the bonkers story.

Apart from those two, all Japanese-developed games I've played had really weak writing and awful voice acting.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] Oh there are many more games that have plots that don't make you roll your eyes. Nier, Metal Gear, Eternal Sonata, just to name a few. Sadly they are a minority, at least by my standards.Pedro

I am currently playing Nier. The story is bearable at the moment, I hoping it does become grinding later on. Metal Gear series have never interest me and Eternal Sonata dialogue and characters were annoying. 

Video game stories as a whole have a long way to go.

Lucky_Krystal

If you want a good story in a japanese game, you've gotta at least hire a professional manga writter like Naoki Urasawa (Monster, 20th Century Boys, Pluto, etc.) and Kentar Miura (Berserk). Someone that actually knows how to tell a story.

Time has nothing to do with it, there are so many old games with so much better stories (storytelling, plot construct, writting quality, story structure, characters, etc.) than anything released in recent times (talking about retail console games specifically). I personally dunno why, but if i had to make a guess, it's probably due to the huge ass budget needed to actually break even with a retail console game, the extra costs like hiring an actual good writter aren't needed to sell a game.

[QUOTE="turtlethetaffer"]

Uh. What the hell Japanese games have you been playing? I think Japanese devs are better at storytelling than western devs.

Also, yes, this argument is easily undermined by 999, which has quite possible the best writing of any game ever.

Pedro

The same question can be posed to you? What games have you been playing? 

Dark Souls, radiant Historia, Xenoblade, Knights in the Nightmare, just to name a few RPGs with great stories.

But as long as we're talking about Japanese games with great stories that aren't RPGs, how about Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Link's Awakening, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, Silent Hill 2, Shattered Memories, No More Heroes, Theresia: Dear Emile (and Dear Martel), and 999? Again, just to name a few.

If you want a good story in a japanese game, you've gotta at least hire a professional manga writter like Naoki Urasawa (Monster, 20th Century Boys, Pluto, etc.) and Kentar Miura (Berserk). Someone that actually knows how to tell a story.

Time has nothing to do with it, there are so many old games with so much better stories (storytelling, plot construct, writting quality, story structure, characters, etc.) than anything released in recent times (talking about retail console games specifically). I personally dunno why, but if i had to make a guess, it's probably due to the huge ass budget needed to actually break even with a retail console game, the extra costs like hiring an actual good writter aren't needed to sell a game.

Lucianu

Well I think it'd be cool if someone like Urasawa or Miura wrote for a game. However, writing for a game is completely different from writing for a manga, a book, or even a TV show. Rhianna Pratchett talks a bit about it in this interview. As she mentions, games are not created solely by the writer. They have to consider how the story fits into the gameplay, and they are usually already given a general story and characters to work with. I'm not sure if you could just take a writer from another medium, put them up to writing for a game, and still have a quality story that would match their other work.

I am not sure if translation is the culprit or simply bad storytelling and dialogue. It just seems like every Japanese developed game is derived from the same storyline with near identical characters with dialogue that painfully mechanical and cliche. I have yet to encounter characters in any of their games that are not one dimensional. Sometimes I wonder if they even bother to try. The concepts behind the story normally outweighs the execution, thus undermining what could have been a terrific story and experience. Or is it that I am simply playing the wrong games? :o

What spurred this is my recent completion of Ys Origin.

Pedro

The problem with alot of jrpgs and japanese games is that they have a hard time creating believable characters with good dialogue. you'd be hard presseed to find the character/dialogue quality found in games like last of us, bioshock, uncharted, half life, portal, and the walking dead.jaypeon

The examples you gave are exceptions. Most games in general of shitty writing and poor characters. It's the same with JRPGs. Most are weak but there are many that are also quite strong.

You could say 98% of video game storytelling is absolute crap and you'd be undershooting it.

I think Ni No Kuni has a great story, from what I've played so far. 

I think a different in cultures also adds to it. I can see them making fun of many western stories for problem that they see in them that most of use do not. The same story from a different view point can change it from good to bad.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] Oh there are many more games that have plots that don't make you roll your eyes. Nier, Metal Gear, Eternal Sonata, just to name a few. Sadly they are a minority, at least by my standards.Pedro

I am currently playing Nier. The story is bearable at the moment, I hoping it does become grinding later on. Metal Gear series have never interest me and Eternal Sonata dialogue and characters were annoying. 

[QUOTE="Pedro"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] Oh there are many more games that have plots that don't make you roll your eyes. Nier, Metal Gear, Eternal Sonata, just to name a few. Sadly they are a minority, at least by my standards.koospetoors

I am currently playing Nier. The story is bearable at the moment, I hoping it does become grinding later on. Metal Gear series have never interest me and Eternal Sonata dialogue and characters were annoying. 

By the way, Nier is a prime example to illustrate that what capaho said is true: the game had to be re-released for the japanese market because the middle-aged protagonist struggling to save his daughter apparently didn't click with the japanese audience. So they replaced him with a standard JRPG emo teen trying to save his sister, which has also been redesigned from a child into a teenage hottie.Black_Knight_00

Hmm...reminds me of what they did with Final Fantasy XII. Vaan was originally supposed to be older and more rugged, but when they considered their target demographic, they made him younger and more effeminate. I personally felt like Vaan and Penelo were just kind of shoehorned in there to appeal to teens. Vaan is a passive and observant character and Penelo is just kind of...there. Everybody could see it was mostly Ashe's, Balthier's, and Basch's story.

[QUOTE="koospetoors"][QUOTE="Pedro"]

I am currently playing Nier. The story is bearable at the moment, I hoping it does become grinding later on. Metal Gear series have never interest me and Eternal Sonata dialogue and characters were annoying. 

Black_Knight_00

The whole second playthrough centers around revealing the most important plot point in the game and is basically half the reason why its story is excellent.

The third playthrough does nothing but let you play through the game again to experience a different ending which reveals more about the plot

The final alternate ending on the other hand is absolutely gut-wrenching, its also directed more towards specifically kicking your heart in the testicles, something that completely falls flat if you quickly watch it on youtube.

So yeahhhh, skipping over to youtube? Not smart if you want to fully experience the game.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="koospetoors"] Be sure to do a second playthrough with your save (and a third one is also recommended) once you're done, I won't say why because spoilers but trust me, you will not regret doing so.koospetoors

The whole second playthrough centers around revealing the most important plot point in the game and is basically half the reason why its story is excellent.

The third playthrough does nothing but let you play through the game again to experience a different ending which reveals more about the plot

The final alternate ending on the other hand is absolutely gut-wrenching, its also directed more towards specifically kicking your heart in the testicles, something that completely falls flat if you quickly watch it on youtube.

So yeahhhh, skipping over to youtube? Not smart if you want to fully experience the game.

Feel free to call me a noob, but that's how I roll ;)

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]By the way, Nier is a prime example to illustrate that what capaho said is true: the game had to be re-released for the japanese market because the middle-aged protagonist struggling to save his daughter apparently didn't click with the japanese audience. So they replaced him with a standard JRPG emo teen trying to save his sister, which has also been redesigned from a child into a teenage hottie.Lucky_Krystal

Hmm...reminds me of what they did with Final Fantasy XII. Vaan was originally supposed to be older and more rugged, but when they considered their target demographic, they made him younger and more effeminate. I personally felt like Vaan and Penelo were just kind of shoehorned in there to appeal to teens. Vaan is a passive and observant character and Penelo is just kind of...there. Everybody could see it was mostly Ashe's, Balthier's, and Basch's story.

[QUOTE="koospetoors"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] Or just watch the 3 alternate endings on youtube like everybody else :lol:Black_Knight_00

The whole second playthrough centers around revealing the most important plot point in the game and is basically half the reason why its story is excellent.

The third playthrough does nothing but let you play through the game again to experience a different ending which reveals more about the plot

The final alternate ending on the other hand is absolutely gut-wrenching, its also directed more towards specifically kicking your heart in the testicles, something that completely falls flat if you quickly watch it on youtube.

So yeahhhh, skipping over to youtube? Not smart if you want to fully experience the game.

Feel free to call me a noob, but that's how I roll ;)

He already said it, but I think bears mentioning that the second playthrough is not only shorter (starting at the halfway point in the game), but adds a lot of extra dialogue during the gameplay that gives a different perspective on most of the later events of the game. The second playthrough was only a few hours longer and it added a lot more than just the ending. I really think it's worth playing.

The last two, however? Yeah, I'm youtubing that stuff. I know I missed the impact of ending D, but screw trying to find all the weapons. I can only take so much tedium.

Why the heck has no one mentioned Persona 2, 3, and 4? :o Also try Catherine. Or just about anything by Atlus.

And if we're talking older games then how about Xenogears, Xenosaga, Tales of the Abyss, Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy XII, the .hack games? And...there are quite a few that I haven't played but have been lauded for their great stories.

Lucky_Krystal

I forgot about Persona. Honestly, though, I find the Persona games a little bit more lighthearted than I like for that sort of content. Seems like a recent trend, as I remember the Persona games on PSone being darker, more serious. Nocturne and DDS were perfect, though. Really enjoyed the story in those.

And Xenosaga/gears were fun as well. But this gen just hasn't been great for Japanese games. SH2 is still one of my all time favorite gaming stories, though.

He already said it, but I think bears mentioning that the second playthrough is not only shorter (starting at the halfway point in the game), but adds a lot of extra dialogue during the gameplay that gives a different perspective on most of the later events of the game. The second playthrough was only a few hours longer and it added a lot more than just the ending. I really think it's worth playing. The last two, however? Yeah, I'm youtubing that stuff. I know I missed the impact of ending D, but screw trying to find all the weapons. I can only take so much tedium._Dez_

By principle I never replay a game twice in quick succession, let alone four times. Any game with a "true ending" is youtube for me. I play an average of 70 games a year, I just don't have time to play some multiple times or go on a collectible hunt just to see a slightly different ending.

Feel free to call me a noob, but that's how I roll ;)

Black_Knight_00