Liberalism should not be exploited to sell video games

Articles like this make me cringe.When I play a game, I don't give a shit about the character's gender, ethnicity, beliefs or sexuality. As long as the characters are well written and believable it's all good. I've seen plenty of games with well written characters where their sexuality didn't feel forced.

Bill from The Last Of Us, Volgin from Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater are a few good examples. Playing through these games, I was like 'oh shit he's gay'?' It was cool because it didn't matter and I continued playing. It was was just another layer of their personality to be discovered.

Now it seems devs feel they specifically need to create stories and characters that are politically correct and represent all groups of people just to play it safe. **** writing a good story. Let's focus on reaching out to as many groups as possible. Like look, here's a gay, asian atheist NPC just to be creative and different.

Here I am trying to unite the galaxy to fight an eminent Reaper invasion, yet every time I step into the cargo area, I hear my pilot sobbing over audio tapes of his dead husband? He's gay, I get it already.

It's cool for any game to have elements of reality in it. But what happened to just creating cool back stories for characters and telling the story you want to tell without trying to appeal to every single group of people. Like the old saying goes, you can't please all the people all the time.

Then this shouldn't bother you.

"I hear my pilot sobbing over audio tapes of his dead husband? He's gay, I get it already."

I don't think think it has to do with liberalism but perception in general. Those cases you mention did not affect me since they did not got in the way of the story. If the affected you, well... then I'm afraid you actually give a shit about it.

Think it this way: if he were crying over his dead wife would he have acted differently?

Also, you see him crying once about it; if he were like that all the time it would turn more an obsession that a personality layer and pretty much overcome his personality. I don't see this as the case.

An observation (not pointing at you, don't get me wrong) I read a good number of complains regarding this character, whose homosexuality is treated with the same degree and relevance as Samantha's, Yet you only hear people complaining about the former. Nor I heard a single complain regarding "Gone Home" Isn't it curious?

Why do people insist that they don't care if a character is gay, yet get really upset at a character being gay in any capacity beyond being a side character and a passing comment.

Plus: Like I said before, and in most of case ONLY when it's a male character. A Gay woman does not seem to bother them at all.

god bless gay women

lol Quite the way of using yourself as example, Just saying...

I get what you're worried about. There are still devs out there that are not trying to mirror reality, they want to embrace extremes and that may involve creating sometimes disagreeable worlds to different social groups who see in-game avatars automatically as representatives of them. Which can't always be helped but is really unnecessary to make that kind of projection.

You're right tho. The best way to 'advocate' for diversity in games, is to NOT actively advocate for it in design, and to not present ones sexuality, or race as such a defining aspect of their character whether they look respectable to a general audience or not.

(unless its like Persona 4 where its the entire story)

But hey, people want what they want and our internet culture loves to read too deeply into every design choice and decision as based on some special interest or regressive agenda, while you're just playing to unwind.

I see what you did there. ;)

Its more of the fact that they try and force it in there and showcase it as if to say "see we put a gay character in here so everyone can see how open minded and polictically correct we are". Its fine as long as it isn't used as a vehicle they shoe horn in just for the sake of having it. Kind of like how I don't care if someone has a gay friend, but I truly can not stand people who introduce their friend as "Oh I have this friend that's gay" because they are more worried about people knowing they have a gay friend than people knowing they just have a friend.

There is a huge difference.

yea, that article highlights the ridiculous attitude of forced gaming politics. but, it's merely the continued attempt of liberals to try and shape the argument and its rules. reading that guy try and tell us what gamers or other devs "need" to do, in terms of, race, gender and sexual choices did nothing but make me laugh at his ridiculousness.

and, coming from bioware, the very epitome of game developer stereotype and forced politics in gaming made it hypocritical, as well. though, not actually being there during the interview does make me hold back a touch.

how about he just worry about making good games and stop forcing his beliefs on us and stop telling others what to do?

I see what you mean. A lot of gamers see these instances as forcing an agenda on the player. They want to ignore it, but they can't. A lot of people are very tolerant until they're directly confronted with things they can't relate to. You can be tolerant of homosexuality, but still feel slightly uncomfortable when you see two men kissing on the street, because it contradicts your own sexual preference in so many ways. The chance is you're much more likely to accuse these two men of wanting to prove a point or pushing an agenda than you would a kissing straight couple.

The Mass Effect example did absolutely nothing to push or promote a gay agenda. It's not about the man being gay, it's about him dealing with the loss of a loved one. The word 'husband' could have been easily replaced with the word 'wife' in every single scene and sentence. The man also wasn't behaving in a stereotypical gay fashion. And yet, some people still feel it's somehow too explicitly forcing a gay character on you and that the narrative is all about him expressing his homosexuality.

The presence (or the option) of a gay man in a relationship is often enough for a straight man to feel uncomfortable, without this straight man immediately being intolerant of homosexuality. People don't want to feel uncomfortable or destracted while playing games, and certainly not when it comes to 'secondary' game aspects like narrative and characters. And so they see these characters and scenes as unnecessary distractions and forced agendas, which are legitimate concerns and which have nothing to do with them being intolerant. And this idea of an agenda is strengthened further when there's a lot of media attention focused on these minority or idealistic instances (because they don't occur too often and because they often lead to a lot of traffic). This attention is often unrelated to the actual significance or impact of the in-game character or narrative in question, but because it gets magnified so much (and because some people use it to indeed address certain political or moral issues), the in-game element itself is seen as a forced and deliberate attempt to promote certain ideals.

This is not the entire story, of course, but well... It might partly explain what is going on.

"He's gay, I get it already."

Wow.

That is entirely not the point. If he was sobbing over his wife, no one would think twice. He's sobbing over his husband, that's his character, and if you lost someone you cared about in that particular setting you'd be devastated too.

See this is the issue. One's gender orientation doesn't matter, but reactions like that do. You can say over and over that it doesn't matter to you, but to imply a character was distraught over the death of their spouse only existed to push an agenda is ludicrous.

@IndianaPwns39:

to think that a homosexual relationship in a game is NOT trying to push a pro-homosexual point of view is what is ludicrous.

as well, to say that the reactions of a person who is against the public, political acceptance and normalization of homosexuality are "intolerant" or "bigoted" is equally ludicrous.

@udubdawgz1: Why though? Why does that character's homosexuality have to exist for no other reason than to push an agenda? Can it not exist because that's the story and it holds no other basis for being present other than yes, some people are gay?

Especially in this case, in which the character we're discussing is so minor, exhibits no stereotypical signs of homosexuality, and only mentions his husband in passing if you choose to talk with him. It's hardly something forced upon the player and really doesn't feel like it exists to push an agenda. Usually, those things are overbearing and frequently brought up, almost constant reminders. This isn't the case with this character.

Games should focus on being games and not cram worthless ideals into it.

They should not jam an issue into your face with the "We're edgy" mindset.

Worse is when you try to jam something in there face and belittle them for feeling uncomfortable with it. You do not think or feel how they want you then will insult you and belittle you. For example, those that are pushing that you must feel welcoming and warm to homosexuality, they will attack or belittle anyone that disagree with their view and worse they play the victim while doing so.

Because it does bother them, obviously.

so wanting to do away with stereotypes and improve writing in a game is a bad thing?

@turtlethetaffer:

and, exactly, which stereotypes are you doing away with and why?

and, exactly, how does using stereotypes or eliminating stereotypes equate to "bad" writing?

If they're going to give a role for the sake of being different, it might not work out too well. You have to vision the character you make without being bothered by other people's opinions on gender stereotypes and sexuality. If the personality fits the character and overall theme of the story, then go for what fits best.

Like Pffrbt said, if you "don't give a s*** about the character's gender, ethnicity, beliefs or sexuality", then why did you create a whole thread just to rant and cry over it? Either that makes you a liar (since it's obvious you really do "give a s***") or just a hypocrite unaware of your own hypocrisy.

Fans liked Volgin in MGS3 simply because they found him "badass". But then, these were the same fans who were crying over MGS2 having an androgynous-looking protagonist called Raiden and a bixexual vampire called Vamp... These were just layers to their character, yet that was all fans couldn't stop whining and crying about.

"Political correctness" is nothing more than a convenient strawman to shut down debate, usually used by people to hide whatever negative discriminatory feelings they may be feeling. The main reason why so many people dislike games or movies that are always centred around straight white males is because they find it repetitive and boring as hell... This mythical "politcal correctness" nonsense has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Try finding a better argument, not Daily Mail tabloid garbage.

I'll never understand people who get upset at the mere mention of a character's sexual preference, and throw a fit about it. It's not like they ask you to join a movement or choose a side for crying out loud.

If you're going to keep on relying on the same old tropes and stereotypes as a crutch, then that's bad writing. For example, that amnesia trope which was popular over a decade ago. It was interesting for a while, but then became repetitive and boring. If writers today used the same old amnesia trope, without trying to subvert it or do something original with it, then they would rightfully get criticized for it.

Same goes for stereotypes, which are just tired old worn-out tropes that get repetitive and boring over the years. And the usual counter-arguments to defend these tired old tropes/stereotypes, like "liberalism" and "political correctness", are themselves just becoming tired old worn-out strawman arguments used as a crutch by people who don't want any kind of change to the status quo, or any kind of creativity or originality in the writing. And as a result, the writing in most video games suffer.

You can have archetype (stereotype to some) character and still have good writing while staying away from them and have poor writing.

@Jag85:

lol, what i first find funny is that the words liberalism and political correctness aren't arguments.

that's why i asked for specific gaming examples. the only one i found in your clichéd responses was the straight white males being boring, though, the modern pro-liberal stereotype is exactly what you said, lol. for your argument to based on a belief that using a straight white male as the primary character in a video games is in any way negative truly makes me laugh. and, to take it further and actually state that writing in games suffers because of the use of certain "status quo" or stereotype examples is even funnier. and, to say that creativity and originality in writing is in some way inherently exemplified by non-stereotypical examples is borderline nutty.

here, let me give you a stereotype I've developed over the years: i find that a huge majority of the time the first person to utter the word "strawman" or "tin-foil" and use them as punchlines is the one who's argument is the most erroneous. i'd say about 95% of the time. so, would that stereotype be my crutch?

now, if you'd like to answer my original question, feel free, since, the straight white male example is an incredibly foolish one to use.

Well, the writing should still be good as long as you don't rely on those tropes/archetypes/stereotypes as a crutch, but actually do something interesting with them. The better examples I've seen are the stories that use those tropes, and then subvert them in some way or do something unexpected with them, bringing something fresh to the table.

Your argument makes no sense. The problem isn't some kind of "pro-liberal stereotype" strawman nonsense you're making up, but because countless gamers are getting bored of the lead characters in games always looking like this:

Or even worse, like this:

What happened to the days when leading video game characters had distinct character designs? To always use more or less the same look, that's just bad character design.

I seen a number of good stories that have stereotypes in them.

To me subverting tropes and the like can be just as lazy. Being fresh to be fresh is a way to hid poor writing. I find it to be even more lazy.

Stereotypes can be lazy but so can being different. The problem I have is when lazy being different gets praised while well written stereotypes are slammed for being lazy.

I would have well written stereotype than characters that are different.

Doing something original is anything but lazy, because it takes significantly more effort to come up with something new than it does to recycle something that's already been done many times before. However, that's not always a good thing. The problem with originality is that it isn't tried-and-tested, so there are more risks involved, and the end result is uncertain. You're much less likely to mess up when sticking to safer, more familiar ground, so there is definitely a benefit to that.

jag- i'll just echo wiouds comment, for simplicity.

however, "countless gamers are getting bored..." just isn't a point you can prove and is irrelevant to this argument even if i concede it's true, which, i do not. in fact, it leads right back to my original question to turtle: give me some specific examples. and, it ties right into wiouds response, which, is where i was headed: bad writing can be done in a myriad of ways and using or not using stereotypes is not inherently positive or negative.

and, like i said, to imply anything negative about a game using a straight, white male is ridiculous.

It's an easy way to get recognition and good reviews. It's all the rage in literature, cinema etc. right now. You put it in, just in case your story/movie is shit.

@Jag85 said:

@wiouds said:

@Jag85 said:

@udubdawgz1 said:

@turtlethetaffer:

and, exactly, which stereotypes are you doing away with and why?

and, exactly, how does using stereotypes or eliminating stereotypes equate to "bad" writing?

If you're going to keep on relying on the same old tropes and stereotypes as a crutch, then that's bad writing. For example, that amnesia trope which was popular over a decade ago. It was interesting for a while, but then became repetitive and boring. If writers today used the same old amnesia trope, without trying to subvert it or do something original with it, then they would rightfully get criticized for it.

Same goes for stereotypes, which are just tired old worn-out tropes that get repetitive and boring over the years. And the usual counter-arguments to defend these tired old tropes/stereotypes, like "liberalism" and "political correctness", are themselves just becoming tired old worn-out strawman arguments used as a crutch by people who don't want any kind of change to the status quo, or any kind of creativity or originality in the writing. And as a result, the writing in most video games suffer.

You can have archetype (stereotype to some) character and still have good writing while staying away from them and have poor writing.

Well, the writing should still be good as long as you don't rely on those tropes/archetypes/stereotypes as a crutch, but actually do something interesting with them. The better examples I've seen are the stories that use those tropes, and then subvert them in some way or do something unexpected with them, bringing something fresh to the table.

@udubdawgz1 said:

@Jag85:

lol, what i first find funny is that the words liberalism and political correctness aren't arguments.

that's why i asked for specific gaming examples. the only one i found in your clichéd responses was the straight white males being boring, though, the modern pro-liberal stereotype is exactly what you said, lol. for your argument to based on a belief that using a straight white male as the primary character in a video games is in any way negative truly makes me laugh. and, to take it further and actually state that writing in games suffers because of the use of certain "status quo" or stereotype examples is even funnier. and, to say that creativity and originality in writing is in some way inherently exemplified by non-stereotypical examples is borderline nutty.

here, let me give you a stereotype I've developed over the years: i find that a huge majority of the time the first person to utter the word "strawman" or "tin-foil" and use them as punchlines is the one who's argument is the most erroneous. i'd say about 95% of the time. so, would that stereotype be my crutch?

now, if you'd like to answer my original question, feel free, since, the straight white male example is an incredibly foolish one to use.

Your argument makes no sense. The problem isn't some kind of "pro-liberal stereotype" strawman nonsense you're making up, but because countless gamers are getting bored of the lead characters in games always looking like this:

Or even worse, like this:

What happened to the days when leading video game characters had distinct character designs? To always use more or less the same look, that's just bad character design.

So in essence its a crime that Troy baker and Nolan North have found so much work opportunity in this industry? Heh Heh. Blame the suits for not letting developers naturally move to making more diverse characters and stories, by saying 'it won't sell'. If the grizzled guys come-off okay, then no big loss.

I don't fault what's happened so far all that much. Unless there were outcries all over the AAA industry of devs diverse characters getting knocked by game executives.

A lot of heterosexual white guys working in tech and creative direction will write or create what reflects their chosen avatars worldviews, so the power in creative direction has to shift to more conscious or diverse minds. Any dev who would default to creating only female, or indian or transgender protagonist etc would want the same freedom to keep making what they like, just as much as a dude who wants to keep making Kratos and Nathan Drakes

It depends on what story they want to tell, and what they are trying to communicate. Then the depiction of race gender stereotypes can be judged accordingly.

At least create your own avatar situations like Titanfall should have more ready made opportunities for players to shape their desired avatar from the get-go.

Only avatars i would feel uncomfortable with are objectively, annoying assholes, with little to no room for player-empathy or understanding of what makes them that way. That could be anybody.

I can't think of anything that actually does this. The only game that come close are Bioware games and I wouldn't even say that it's the case there either, it more just that Bioware games have terrible writing in general. In either cased, I'd rather have a gay character "shoehorned" in than none at all. But of course, any gay character that isn't relegated to being a distant side character with a passing mention of sexuality is "shoehorned" in.

Being different to be different is lazy. "Fun and interesting dialog? I don't need that because my characters are so different." "I don't need worry about making great scenes because my characters are so different."

Good writing is was is important and stereotypes can help make writing better. It can hurt write too. That is also true for being different and subverting.

What is a stereotype or trope is not the same from person to person.

To me it doesn't matter as long as it isn't forced

I think what you're referring to is something very different. Using originality as a reason to ignore all other aspects of writing or game design would make it like a gimmick, and therefore lazy. But trying to enhance the writing or game design with originality is anything but lazy, and takes a lot of effort to pull off in a good way.

'original? don't you mean just 'in-tune with our evolving social era? Current social relevance is only one barometer to measure a work's quality, and no guarantee that the character will be handled well.

The challenge of acceptability would arguably shift to the person who still wants to create stories of cavalier james bonds's, indiana jones's and gi-joes kicking ass and bedding gorgeous ladies, because even though there will still be a niche market for it, a diverse community perception in the future may demand more of such an old fashioned protagonist, than other diverse characters in a future 'enlightened' era of gaming.

Such an author would have an even higher challenge to a diverse population to make such an authored character resonate to those outside of his assured target market, who don't identify with that picture of male strength, and stand out from all his space marine, ancient slayer, and rugged outdoorsmen predecessors.

In short, he'd have to be very 3-dimensional for fed up players to even tolerate.

Not sure what you mean by "evolving social era", because I'd argue that it's anything but, at least as far as gaming is concerned, because the industry nowadays seems to revolve mostly around the same character archetype: a straight white male with a rugged beard, buzz cut, muscular physique, and "badass" personality. I remember leading video game characters being way more diverse than that back in the 90's.

Didn't read all of these, but I'm not saying that there can't be stereotypes. Like someone else said, you can have interesting characters who have some stereotypical qualities if they subvert expectations in some way or another. But more often than not the stereotypes comes from lazy writing, rather than cleverly trying to turn the familiar upside down. For instance, Tales of the Abyss. Someone mentioned the amnesia stereotype, and that game uses it but does so in an interesting way. I won't spoil how, but there's a good reason for the amnesia (plus the character isn't your typical JRPG goody goody guy either). But more often than not amnesia is used as a lame excuse to keep players and characters in the dark.

Or take something like Spec Ops the Line. It subverts and critiques stereotypes, and utilizes genre cliches in neat ways. But CoD uses the same stereotypes and it's lame as hell.

Amnesia is a good way to show a different world. One of the common statement about FF13 is that you need to go to the game logs to understand what

I hate Spec Ops the Line. It such a poorly written story worse yet it lazily coasted on being subversive. It is a perfect example of a poorly written story that get praised for just being subversive. Everyone of the CoD games that I have played had more effort place into the writing and are better written. Spec Ops The Line is the first story that I can not say anything good about.
It is the first and only video game story that I call trash.

Now if you want to talk about play with what is expected then you can look at Inversion. I enjoy the reveal at the end of the game even if the characters are a bit stock.

Sure but should Martin Walker or Snake be the only way to use a typical grizzled male hero simply because of exhaustion of male heroes? If a lot of boring male heroes are marketing creations, then honest ones can be just as good a response as diverse characters.

Being reactionary to tropes isn't the only benchmark for good. Its not just about subverting stereotypes, because then a narrative action game, gets only focused on changing the social narrative from its predecessors. It should be about itself, and only itself like Tomb Raider reboot.

It should be just about empathizing with a character's hopes, worries and struggles. Thereby wanting to finish their campaign and story. I mean look at Dominic from Gears. Though not the main guy, that's an example of a character whos kinda non-typical.

All there needs to be is an understanding from the player about the avatar's goals. Its better if those goals are deeper than just 'sexual conquest' or 'vengeance over blank-slate characters' or less-tackled ones for example.

'acceptance' 'safety' 'honor' 'determination to live' 'knowledge' 'curiosity' 'legacy' 'financial gain' 'thrillseek' 'masochism' 'a sense of personal freedom' etc.

Then we're getting more honest joes and moving in the right direction.

And if their goals fall around the usual suspects 'sex' 'conquest' and or 'bloody vengeance' then there's expectation the writer should have stronger reasoning and context for it in a 'serious' game story.

I'd also agree. If the dialogue is believable then I'm fine with it. It's when things are forced and "thrown out of left field" that kind leaves you with a feeling of underwhelm

Here's the full interview that the article is referring to:

Bioware's Manveer Heir on Diversity in Games: Adam Sessler Interviews at GDC 2014

exactly, whatever sexuality, political or even religious view don't matter to me as long as the character and story is good and it's not forced. That's what get's me

Exactly. I think devs should just worry about telling the best story they can and stop trying to side with the self entitlement. Sexuality, gender, race, whatever should not be a proprietorial factor in any form of creativity period. I liked the way Naughty Dog created a cool character and his sexuality was just a part of who he was. Nothing more, nothing less. Mass Effect 3's Cortez felt like Bioware was trying to hard to appeal to the gay community in my opinion. Keyword opinion.

We've reached the point where anyone mentioning the word 'gay' and critiques an aspect of how it relates to something in the same sentence, is a villain. I clearly explained I have no problem with beliefs, sexuality or whatever incorporated in video games.

What does concern me is devs going on these 'hey look people, we are politically correct' campaigns instead of focusing on more important things like improving gameplay and making the game as fun as possible.

If an NPC is an atheist for example, and it's a part of their personality left to be discovered, cool. If from the moment I'm introduced to this NPC, every conversation focuses on them being an atheist, it's like, 'alright, I get it, you're an atheist, here's a cookie. Shut up and get on with your point'.

Open my mind up to a great story, give me something to reflect on long after I finish the game. That's what will make your product timeless. But going on a 'we need to specifically reach out to this group of people to gain cool points' campaign while ignoring people who buy your product because they enjoy it is straight up bullshit. I just want to enjoy good games period.

Yeah, this doesn't seem like a necessary discussion.

I see what you're saying. But I went back to the cargo bay a few times and heard the same tapes every time. Also If I remember correctly, there was a paragon / renegade choice during one of Shepard's conversations with Cortex and heterosexuality was the renegade choice.

I wasn't a fan of Samantha either to tell you the truth but the way they handle her sexuality was better written than Cortez's 'oh my dead husband cries' over and over. At least with Samantha, you got the hint of her sexuality when she commented on Edi's voice sounding sexy and left it at that.

When I play games , I want to be entertained . Too many developers these days think that being controversial will make them money . How about we start focusing on something that truly matters .? How about improving gameplays .?

To tell you the truth, I felt the same way about Raiden back in Metal Gear Solid 2. He was a whiny crybaby moaning about everything under the sun. I understand Cortez lost his husband and had a right to grieve over his lost but it would have cool if Bioware gave a back story to Cortez as a person and more on how his piloting experience, why he joined the Alliance, and made me give a damn instead of just being a grieving widow everytime you spoke with him.

Liara saw her mother die with her own eyes and wasn't sobbing like that. It felt like Cortez was fan service for the gay community. Even Samantha had interesting things to say and didn't focus on her sexuality unless you tried to hit on her.

Looks like you skimmed through my post and zeroed in on a few key words. If only you actually read what I posted and clicked on the link I provided, you would see that the devs are the ones pushing political correctness on gamers for no reason other than sells and brownie points.

I clearly stated I had no problem with Volgin and in fact I liked his character. Raiden was indeed and still an androgynous protagonist but my issue with him in metal Gear Solid 2 was he was a whiny crybaby, pure and simple. I thought Vamp was a joke point blank, bisexual, straight or whatever he was supposed to be.

and, THERE is the entire point in one neat package: the heterosexual option was the renegade choice. game. set. match.