Metal Gear Solid 2?!

I've been playing through the MGS series as I never actually played through these games. Anyway, I played 1, beat it, loved it and that's about it, but what the hell happened to MGS 2? This is the most disappointing sequels I've ever played, I was super excited going into it after the awesomeness of 1 and I don't feel like I've ever been this let down. After dedicating 5.5 hours to this game I feel like I've completely wasted my time, something is off about all these characters and it doesn't even really feel like MGS anymore specially with Raiden and him being really, really effeminate and that wouldn't have bothered me all that much if all the other characters weren't really off too, like Fate and Vamp.

What bugs me the most is that a friend of mine told me to skip over 2 and just read up on what happens in the game, I was about to do so but then I read the Gamespot review and the reviewer was totally in love with it, '9.6' in love with it! So I decided to give it a go and I ended up extremely disheartened. Now I'm moving on to 3 with a clear mind, forgetting that 2 ever even happened to me. Hopefully I'll love it as much as 1 or even more. It just blows my mind that metal gear solid 2 is one of the highest rated PS2 games and the 2nd highest rated MGS game! I... Just can't comprehend that.

What does everyone else think of this game?

I liked MGS2 a lot. Good gameplay and re-playability. As I've said before, complaining about Raiden is like complaining about Ken in SF2. He's similar to Ryu in his fighting style, just with some differences. Besides, the guy was a child soldier. Cut him some slack.

I'd half agree with you on 2. I enjoyed it, but found the story was slow and just seemed....weird, for a lack of a better word. Now, 3 is just an all round awsome experience that you will thoroughly enjoy. One you get to 4, everything will fall into place, while leaving you with even more holes then you started with lol

The gameplay is great and improved from its predecessor, but the story/narrative is absurd and the pacing (mainly with the gameplay-to-cutscences/Codec ratio) is completely "off" and unbalanced. Overall, I did enjoy it.

Just wait'll you get to MGS4. It's like MGS2, if MGS2 spent the night drinking booze, slamming crack and boning everything that moved, only to wake up in the morning with a pair of crapped pants, a big red V on its face, and an itchy nether-region.

But seriously, MGS2 is truly FoxDie. It was the injection of the virus, and MGS4 was the whole "Nooooooooooo, whyyyyyyyyyy" heart-clutching, spasming ten seconds of agony.

I'd half agree with you on 2. I enjoyed it, but found the story was slow and just seemed....weird, for a lack of a better word. Now, 3 is just an all round awsome experience that you will thoroughly enjoy. One you get to 4, everything will fall into place, while leaving you with even more holes then you started with lol

Chogyam

MGS3 is the best game Hideo Kojima will ever make. In fact, it's a better game than MOST PEOPLE will ever make. Best finale in gaming history. Nothing even comes close.

While I still really enjoyed MGS2 I would say it was probably the weakest in the series. I found Otacon pretty annoying and the story gets overly convuluted in the end but I still enjoyed it overall and there were some really cool moments. Overall I'd rank the series from worst to best as: MGS2, MGS, MGS3, MGS4.Archangel3371

this.

MGS2 is probabyl the most disappointing game ive ever played. but upon repeated playthroughs, i enjoyed it a lot. Incredible graphics, the harrier fight was nuts, 60fps ftw, and the tanker chapter itself is better than most games.

But then again, Im a mgs fan.

[QUOTE="Archangel3371"]While I still really enjoyed MGS2 I would say it was probably the weakest in the series. I found Otacon pretty annoying and the story gets overly convuluted in the end but I still enjoyed it overall and there were some really cool moments. Overall I'd rank the series from worst to best as: MGS2, MGS, MGS3, MGS4.S0lidSnake

this.

MGS2 is probabyl the most disappointing game ive ever played. but upon repeated playthroughs, i enjoyed it a lot. Incredible graphics, the harrier fight was nuts, 60fps ftw, and the tanker chapter itself is better than most games.

But then again, Im a mgs fan.

Considering how most of MGS4 is spent mopping up the mess made by MGS2, I'm going to have to completely disregard both your comments. I don't think it's possible to say, "MGS2 was too convoluted" and then say "I think MGS4 had the best story." MGS4 is MGS2's busboy, cleaning up the mess that its unruly patron left -- that's why it sucked so bad. Some messes simply can't be cleaned up.

EDIT: Chapter 4 was like Kojima admitting "You know, this whole game reeks of MGS2, let's put a little MGS1 in there to kill the stink."

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

[QUOTE="Archangel3371"]While I still really enjoyed MGS2 I would say it was probably the weakest in the series. I found Otacon pretty annoying and the story gets overly convuluted in the end but I still enjoyed it overall and there were some really cool moments. Overall I'd rank the series from worst to best as: MGS2, MGS, MGS3, MGS4.Shame-usBlackley

this.

MGS2 is probabyl the most disappointing game ive ever played. but upon repeated playthroughs, i enjoyed it a lot. Incredible graphics, the harrier fight was nuts, 60fps ftw, and the tanker chapter itself is better than most games.

But then again, Im a mgs fan.

Considering how most of MGS4 is spent mopping up the mess made by MGS2, I'm going to have to completely disregard both your comments. I don't think it's possible to say, "MGS2 was too convoluted" and then say "I think MGS4 had the best story." MGS4 is MGS2's busboy, cleaning up the mess that its unruly patron left -- that's why it sucked so bad. Some messes simply can't be cleaned up.

EDIT: Chapter 4 was like Kojima admitting "You know, this whole game reeks of MGS2, let's put a little MGS1 in there to kill the stink."

I dont think either of us said that MGS4 had the best story. That would still be either MGS1 or MGS3.

The reason why I liked MGS4 (even though like MGS2 it ALSO got convoluted towards the end) more than MGS2 was simply because it had better action sequences. MGS2 IMO didnt have a single "epic" moment like the the last two hours MGS3. I know you didnt care much for Act 4. But IMO, Act 3 chase scene, the entire Act4, Ray Vs Rex, the last fight with ocelot, the microwave scene were far more epic than anything in MGS2, and easily on par with the last two hours of MGS3. It was easy to look past the convoluted cutscenes because so much awesomeness was happening in between.

Plus, every cutscene with Raiden was so badass that it made the long cutscenes a lot easier to digest.

Storywise, MGS4 lacked people like Young Ocelot and The Boss from MGS3. I am not ashamed to admit that i fell in love with young ocelot. everytime the dude came on screen, i'd start cheering. he made the last chase scene in MGS3 sooo much fun. Snake and Big mama had their moments in MGS4, but Ocelot and The Boss were multidimensional characters who completely stole the show.

Oh, and MGS4 was an apotheosis of awesome.Black_Knight_00

*sends Black_knight-08 a friend request*

MGS2 wasn't too bad. MGS3 is pretty cool, too. I haven't played MGS4.

Considering how most of MGS4 is spent mopping up the mess made by MGS2, I'm going to have to completely disregard both your comments. I don't think it's possible to say, "MGS2 was too convoluted" and then say "I think MGS4 had the best story." MGS4 is MGS2's busboy, cleaning up the mess that its unruly patron left -- that's why it sucked so bad. Some messes simply can't be cleaned up.

EDIT: Chapter 4 was like Kojima admitting "You know, this whole game reeks of MGS2, let's put a little MGS1 in there to kill the stink."

Shame-usBlackley

I would've rather been Solid Snake all the way through, but I think Snake's age seemed to emphasize stealth more than the first 3. MGS3 was basically the epitome of survival tactics, but being Rambo was possible and probable, especially if I have a weapon that Snake yells while using. Snake was old in 4, so going through with guns blazing was as bad an idea as in MGS, only with a better camera, slower movements, and...no roundhouse kick.... I guess I'm giving the edge to MGS since I didn't find that too hard anyway because I had plenty of ways to trap and lots of tranquilizers and that shock knife.

MGS4 also had MGS3 elements. Remember the part where Raiden taught Snake how to track a target? Besides, MGO is awesome...if awkward.

Metal Gear Solid 2 was my favorite in the series. The only thing I was disappointing with was that Snake was in so little of it, but he was great when he was like he was in the past game. I always found Big Boss to be nowhere near as good as Snake and Snake in MGS4 was horrible.

Snake was old in 4, so going through with guns blazing was as bad an idea as in MGS

? It was just as easy to play run and gun in MGS4 than in MGS3. Especially if you are playing on Normal or easier.

The reason why I liked MGS4 (even though like MGS2 it ALSO got convoluted towards the end) more than MGS2 was simply because it had better action sequences. MGS2 IMO didnt have a single "epic" moment like the the last two hours MGS3. I know you didnt care much for Act 4. But IMO, Act 3 chase scene, the entire Act4, Ray Vs Rex, the last fight with ocelot, the microwave scene were far more epic than anything in MGS2, and easily on par with the last two hours of MGS3. It was easy to look past the convoluted cutscenes because so much awesomeness was happening in between.

Plus, every cutscene with Raiden was so badass that it made the long cutscenes a lot easier to digest.

Storywise, MGS4 lacked people like Young Ocelot and The Boss from MGS3. I am not ashamed to admit that i fell in love with young ocelot. everytime the dude came on screen, i'd start cheering. he made the last chase scene in MGS3 sooo much fun. Snake and Big mama had their moments in MGS4, but Ocelot and The Boss were multidimensional characters who completely stole the show.

S0lidSnake

Are you kidding? Raiden RUINED the latter part of the game. Stopping a destroyer by holding it on a boardwalk? Fighting with a knife in his mouth, limbless, like a Monty Python punchline? Being stitched together and good as new? MY friend, if Kojima's goal was to redeem Raiden after MGS2, he completely failed. There were glimpses of awesomeness, like the fight against the two metal gear hybrids, but overall, he was absolute cheese. Again.

The action aspect for the ending of MGS4 was good, but were we really playing it to tap X a hundred times during a realtime cutscene punctuated by a shoddy fighting game? No, we were playing it to watch the final act of what used to be the best told story in gaming. And he whiffed it by giving us two hours of crap. The final two hours (not playable, but the true final two) of MGS4 clearly illustrated all that went wrong with the title when compared to the final two hours of Snake Eater.

You're completely right about Young Ocelot, though. But that's pretty much every character from Snake Eater -- they all make the characters from MGS4 look like sad cardboard cutouts.

[quote="I"]Snake was old in 4, so going through with guns blazing was as bad an idea as in MGSLegolas_Katarn

"I have no name. If you must call me something, call me No Name."

...Anyway, that was in regards to the higher difficulties. I was using non-lethal stuff for the most part.

Are you kidding? Raiden RUINED the latter part of the game. Stopping a destroyer by holding it on a boardwalk? Fighting with a knife in his mouth, limbless, like a Monty Python punchline? Being stitched together and good as new? MY friend, if Kojima's goal was to redeem Raiden after MGS2, he completely failed. There were glimpses of awesomeness, like the fight against the two metal gear hybrids, but overall, he was absolute cheese. Again.

The action aspect for the ending of MGS4 was good, but were we really playing it to tap X a hundred times during a realtime cutscene punctuated by a shoddy fighting game? No, we were playing it to watch the final act of what used to be the best told story in gaming. And he whiffed it by giving us two hours of crap. The final two hours (not playable, but the true final two) of MGS4 clearly illustrated all that went wrong with the title when compared to the final two hours of Snake Eater.

You're completely right about Young Ocelot, though. But that's pretty much every character from Snake Eater -- they all make the characters from MGS4 look like sad cardboard cutouts.

Shame-usBlackley

First of all, I think it's hilarious that we are still arguing the same thing after two years. When will it end! :lol:

Secondly, just to clarify. I did NOT like Raiden's ending in the epilogue at all. his son reminded me of a troll doll, and i still hate whatsherface with a passion. that said, I simply cant forget or dismiss the awesomeness that came before it. The build up to his intro (calling Snake on codec saying Jack is no more), then his fantastic intro, then his awesome fight with Vamp, cutting his own arm off to save Snake. All of that: Awesome. I can understand you not buying his "reunion" with Rose or him getting his body back, but man, how can you **** and moan about him holding off a ship for a few seconds? Let's not forget that the ship did run him over. And please let's not forget this is MGS we are talking about here. The same MGS that had Volgin shoot bullets from his hands. The same MGS that had you fight a hundred year old sniper. The same MGS with a guy who shoots bees from his mouth. The same MGS that called you on codec to tell you to switch your controller to the second port during a boss battle. It's always been absurd. Complaining about a freaking ninja with white blood stopping a destroyer and fighting with no limbs is the weakest argument you can have against a MGS game.

The mashing X (or was it Traingle) scene worked because we thought that the game would continue and give us a different ending like in MGS1. I got the bad ending in MGS1 because I messed up the torture sequence. No way in hell i was gonna let it happen again. playing it the first time through, when i saw his life bar start to go down, I really thought he was gonna die. That's why that scene had such a huge emotional impact.

The thing is that I cant dismiss the awesomeness that preceeded that disappointing final hour. The game was epic, action packed, thrilling for like 15 hours before the final hour, and I wont judge the entire game for it. There is a reason why the endings are called, "Epilogue" and "Debriefing". MGS4 the game ended after the ocelot fight. MGS the series ended after the epilogue and debriefing.

First of all, I think it's hilarious that we are still arguing the same thing after two years. When will it end! :lol:

Secondly, just to clarify. I did NOT like Raiden's ending in the epilogue at all. his son reminded me of a troll doll, and i still hate whatsherface with a passion. that said, I simply cant forget or dismiss the awesomeness that came before it. The build up to his intro (calling Snake on codec saying Jack is no more), then his fantastic intro, then his awesome fight with Vamp, cutting his own arm off to save Snake. All of that: Awesome. I can understand you not buying his "reunion" with Rose or him getting his body back, but man, how can you **** and moan about him holding off a ship for a few seconds? Let's not forget that the ship did run him over. And please let's not forget this is MGS we are talking about here. The same MGS that had Volgin shoot bullets from his hands. The same MGS that had you fight a hundred year old sniper. The same MGS with a guy who shoots bees from his mouth. The same MGS that called you on codec to tell you to switch your controller to the second port during a boss battle. It's always been absurd. Complaining about a freaking ninja with white blood stopping a destroyer and fighting with no limbs is the weakest argument you can have against a MGS game.

The mashing X (or was it Traingle) scene worked because we thought that the game would continue and give us a different ending like in MGS1. I got the bad ending in MGS1 because I messed up the torture sequence. No way in hell i was gonna let it happen again. playing it the first time through, when i saw his life bar start to go down, I really thought he was gonna die. That's why that scene had such a huge emotional impact.

The thing is that I cant dismiss the awesomeness that preceeded that disappointing final hour. The game was epic, action packed, thrilling for like 15 hours before the final hour, and I wont judge the entire game for it. There is a reason why the endings are called, "Epilogue" and "Debriefing". MGS4 the game ended after the ocelot fight. MGS the series ended after the epilogue and debriefing.

S0lidSnake

I know, I should totally just drop it since I couldn't stand how awful it turned out, but it really upset me to see him piss on the series like that. :P

I agree that Raiden's build-up was kickass -- that part I have no problem with. The problem with the ship is that it became a problem with the whole game. The whole theme of the series was always "man vs machine" and Kojima crapped on that entire premise by making everyone basically invincible and immortal and going with a "man BECOMES machine" inference, which was totally lamely delivered. What difference does it make seeing Raiden make the sacrifice at the ship when he's just going to come back again? What impact does it have seeing Raiden fight away a bunch of dudes with a knife in his mouth when the answer is just to stitch him, good as new at the end? What good is Snake's suffering if his entire death would be meaningless and can be explained away by nanomachines and technology? There was no HUMANITY left in the end, and that hurt the ending greatly, I felt.

Death lost its bearing in this game, which just made the characters kind of pointless.... what is the sense in trying to kill everyone when they can just be stitched/nano'd back up? The whole dramatic aspect of the game became meaningless once I realized this important fact. Sure, everything looked dramatic, and the music would swell and for a second I'd get that old feeling back, but in the end I walked away feeling like these characters were a bunch of tech-aided sissies, unlike Naked Snake who got his ass kicked at every turn, and was indeed VERY vulnerable to death.

It wasn't just Snake and Raiden, though. They turned Naomi into a garbage bin, throwaway character who just happened to be holding onto the cure for cancer long enough to stop suppressing so she could die without sharing it with the rest of the world. Rose is just as lame as ever, just in the other direction.

You completely missed the point -- it's not the absurdity of the characters, it's the absurdity of how everything was explained.

I liked MGS2, the story was too convuluted, but it did have some good moments. (The greatest scene in any video game ever) But the gameplay (when you did play it) was the best in the series. MGS3, would have the best gameplay if it wasn't loaded down with the survival aspect. I disliked gathering food, I HATED the cure menu. Every time somebody knife's me or shoots me with a shotgun or the odd bullet gets lodged in my arm during an excited shootout, I have to completely stop the action, pause the game, go into the cure menu, apply stitches, bandages, etc. unpause the game and resume. That said, MGS3 had some great moments, and the best plot of any game in the series. MGS2's gameplay simply worked better because it was more streamlined.

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

Are you kidding? Raiden RUINED the latter part of the game. Stopping a destroyer by holding it on a boardwalk? Fighting with a knife in his mouth, limbless, like a Monty Python punchline? Being stitched together and good as new? MY friend, if Kojima's goal was to redeem Raiden after MGS2, he completely failed. There were glimpses of awesomeness, like the fight against the two metal gear hybrids, but overall, he was absolute cheese. Again.

The action aspect for the ending of MGS4 was good, but were we really playing it to tap X a hundred times during a realtime cutscene punctuated by a shoddy fighting game? No, we were playing it to watch the final act of what used to be the best told story in gaming. And he whiffed it by giving us two hours of crap. The final two hours (not playable, but the true final two) of MGS4 clearly illustrated all that went wrong with the title when compared to the final two hours of Snake Eater.

You're completely right about Young Ocelot, though. But that's pretty much every character from Snake Eater -- they all make the characters from MGS4 look like sad cardboard cutouts.

S0lidSnake

First of all, I think it's hilarious that we are still arguing the same thing after two years. When will it end! :lol:

Secondly, just to clarify. I did NOT like Raiden's ending in the epilogue at all. his son reminded me of a troll doll, and i still hate whatsherface with a passion. that said, I simply cant forget or dismiss the awesomeness that came before it. The build up to his intro (calling Snake on codec saying Jack is no more), then his fantastic intro, then his awesome fight with Vamp, cutting his own arm off to save Snake. All of that: Awesome. I can understand you not buying his "reunion" with Rose or him getting his body back, but man, how can you **** and moan about him holding off a ship for a few seconds? Let's not forget that the ship did run him over. And please let's not forget this is MGS we are talking about here. The same MGS that had Volgin shoot bullets from his hands. The same MGS that had you fight a hundred year old sniper. The same MGS with a guy who shoots bees from his mouth. The same MGS that called you on codec to tell you to switch your controller to the second port during a boss battle. It's always been absurd. Complaining about a freaking ninja with white blood stopping a destroyer and fighting with no limbs is the weakest argument you can have against a MGS game.

The mashing X (or was it Traingle) scene worked because we thought that the game would continue and give us a different ending like in MGS1. I got the bad ending in MGS1 because I messed up the torture sequence. No way in hell i was gonna let it happen again. playing it the first time through, when i saw his life bar start to go down, I really thought he was gonna die. That's why that scene had such a huge emotional impact.

The thing is that I cant dismiss the awesomeness that preceeded that disappointing final hour. The game was epic, action packed, thrilling for like 15 hours before the final hour, and I wont judge the entire game for it. There is a reason why the endings are called, "Epilogue" and "Debriefing". MGS4 the game ended after the ocelot fight. MGS the series ended after the epilogue and debriefing.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] Oh, and MGS4 was an apotheosis of awesome.S0lidSnake

*sends Black_knight-08 a friend request*