Ninja Theory's Kyle Shubel defends against Team Ninja's Tomonobu Itagaki

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/08/06/heavenly-sword-producer-defends-against-itagakis-jabs/

Oh no he didn't news now, with Team Ninja's tough-talking Tomonobu Itagaki expressing his thoughts on Heavenly Sword, September's highly anticipated PS3 kill-em-up from Ninja Theory. It seems the interactive cutscenes and corresponding button prompts didn't sit too well with the drinking designer. "I've never played a good game where the developers put a big icon of the button you're supposed to press onscreen," he told EGM (via CVG). "I look at Heavenly Sword and it seems really half-assed, because it's asking you to do all these button-timing sequences but you are not getting much payoff from it."

Itagaki has every right to feel robbed -- if he's never played a good game like that, we can only conclude that he's never experienced Shenmue, Resident Evil 4, God of War or Tomb Raider: Anniversary. He's probably played Dragon's Lair though.

Not content with leaving the battle of "Ninja" developers without a fight, Heavenly Sword producer Kyle Shubel courteously defended the game's interactive events, noting that the feats accomplished in them would be frustrating to pull off on your own. "My response to Mr. Itagaki would be that the intent of the Hero sequences is to empower the player to experience events that would be nearly impossible to play in a natural platforming state... for example, making the player run down ropes, leaping from rope to rope as they're being cut from underneath you, all while dodging other objects - that would be a frustrating experience to 99 percent of our users if we were to force them to do that manually."

We'll find out next month if Heavenly Sword is a fully-assed answer to Itagaki's thrice-released Ninja Gaiden.

I actually agree with him about interactive cutscenes. I find them incredibly annoying most of the time, and its the one and only thing that I absolutely did not like about Resident Evil 4.

I'd be trying to watch a scene and listen to what characters are saying, then they have to break my immersion by just throwing a random button up there for a mili-second. Miss it, game over. Annoyed. Of course, it wouldn't have been as bad if it wasn't a RANDOM button every time so you could just memorize it. Towards the end of the game, these random scenes were upwards of a half dozen button presses.

I remember Shenmue's scenes being a lot easier to pull off, for some reason. Maybe the buttons were fixed every time?

I don't agree that Heavenly Sword is half-assed, though. I think Itagaki just feels he needs to talk crap about a rival company with "NINJA" in their name, that happens to be making an action-based game.

"My response to Mr. Itagaki would be that the intent of the Hero sequences is to empower the player to experience events that would be nearly impossible to play in a natural platforming state... for example, making the player run down ropes, leaping from rope to rope as they're being cut from underneath you, all while dodging other objects - that would be a frustrating experience to 99 percent of our users if we were to force them to do that manually." Kyle Shubel

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/08/06/heavenly-sword-producer-defends-against-itagakis-jabs/

Oh no he didn't news now, with Team Ninja's tough-talking Tomonobu Itagaki expressing his thoughts on Heavenly Sword, September's highly anticipated PS3 kill-em-up from Ninja Theory. It seems the interactive cutscenes and corresponding button prompts didn't sit too well with the drinking designer. "I've never played a good game where the developers put a big icon of the button you're supposed to press onscreen," he told EGM (via CVG). "I look at Heavenly Sword and it seems really half-assed, because it's asking you to do all these button-timing sequences but you are not getting much payoff from it."

Itagaki has every right to feel robbed -- if he's never played a good game like that, we can only conclude that he's never experienced Shenmue, Resident Evil 4, God of War or Tomb Raider: Anniversary. He's probably played Dragon's Lair though.

Not content with leaving the battle of "Ninja" developers without a fight, Heavenly Sword producer Kyle Shubel courteously defended the game's interactive events, noting that the feats accomplished in them would be frustrating to pull off on your own. "My response to Mr. Itagaki would be that the intent of the Hero sequences is to empower the player to experience events that would be nearly impossible to play in a natural platforming state... for example, making the player run down ropes, leaping from rope to rope as they're being cut from underneath you, all while dodging other objects - that would be a frustrating experience to 99 percent of our users if we were to force them to do that manually."

We'll find out next month if Heavenly Sword is a fully-assed answer to Itagaki's thrice-released Ninja Gaiden.

Multi-Alias

If I was forced to do anything like that in Ninja Gaiden I'd throw the god damn disc out the window.

And I like the last line too.

Well played Mr. Shubel, well played.

Below are my thoughts about Heavenly Sword and QTEs posted in a prior thread.

I think QTEs work provided they aren't doing something that one should be able to do within the context of the normal control scheme (that was my big issue with some of the QTEs in Shenmue). Rope-running presumably isn't going to happening very often in Heavenly Sword, so having a QTE which gives one some control over the sequence makes sense (as opposed to merely watching a noninteractive cinema of Nariko running the rope or her magically appearing on the other side).The rope running sequence was pretty easy, but its the sequence that opens up chapter 2, so perhaps things will get more challenging down the line.

The GoW1 and 2 QTEs tended to work well (wrestling a guys weapon away from him and them doing something horrible to him) though I admit I wasn't a fan of many of the QTEs in Shenmue or RE4.

Itagaki has way too much mouth considering the fact that he is content to remake his one quality game over and over again when he is not offering fetishistic garbage meant to be played with one hand. George Lucas once made quality movies, but after the atrocities that were the last three Star Wars movies, I don't think filmmakers aspiring to greatness should listen to anything that he has to say.

Below are my thoughts about Heavenly Sword and QTEs posted in a prior thread.

I think QTEs work provided they aren't doing something that one should be able to do within the context of the normal control scheme (that was my big issue with some of the QTEs in Shenmue). Rope-running presumably isn't going to happening very often in Heavenly Sword, so having a QTE which gives one some control over the sequence makes sense (as opposed to merely watching a noninteractive cinema of Nariko running the rope or her magically appearing on the other side).The rope running sequence was pretty easy, but its the sequence that opens up chapter 2, so perhaps things will get more challenging down the line.

The GoW1 and 2 QTEs tended to work well (wrestling a guys weapon away from him and them doing something horrible to him) though I admit I wasn't a fan of many of the QTEs in Shenmue or RE4.

Itagaki has way too much mouth considering the fact that he is content to remake his one quality game over and over again when he is not offering fetishistic garbage meant to be played with one hand. George Lucas once made quality movies, but after the atrocities that were the last three Star Wars movies, I don't think filmmakers aspiring to greatness should listen to anything that he has to say.

CarnageHeart

Perfectly said.

well to defend itagaki.....playing a game by pressing one button every 2-3 seconds sucks......

BUT! pushing a button rapidly over and over and constanly footsweeping an opponent...now thats gameplay.

if ever one was convinced of itagakis genius....just go buy DOA beach volley ball. you'll have second thoughts!

I actually agree with him about interactive cutscenes. I find them incredibly annoying most of the time, and its the one and only thing that I absolutely did not like about Resident Evil 4.

I'd be trying to watch a scene and listen to what characters are saying, then they have to break my immersion by just throwing a random button up there for a mili-second. Miss it, game over. Annoyed. Of course, it wouldn't have been as bad if it wasn't a RANDOM button every time so you could just memorize it. Towards the end of the game, these random scenes were upwards of a half dozen button presses.

EdgecrusherAza

[QUOTE="EdgecrusherAza"]

I actually agree with him about interactive cutscenes. I find them incredibly annoying most of the time, and its the one and only thing that I absolutely did not like about Resident Evil 4.

I'd be trying to watch a scene and listen to what characters are saying, then they have to break my immersion by just throwing a random button up there for a mili-second. Miss it, game over. Annoyed. Of course, it wouldn't have been as bad if it wasn't a RANDOM button every time so you could just memorize it. Towards the end of the game, these random scenes were upwards of a half dozen button presses.

CodeMunki

For some reason, I can't remember how I felt about GOW2's cutscenes. But if they were like RE4's, then yeah...not a fan of that style. You're right, though, in the Wii version they're easier to pull off. However, towards the end of the game they still got pretty annoying, the worst of which SPOILER!!!!!is the Krauser confrontation.

Like Carnage says, there's a right and a wrong way to do those kinds of scenes. If it breaks my immersion instead of adding to it, then IMO its pointless.

Below are my thoughts about Heavenly Sword and QTEs posted in a prior thread.

I think QTEs work provided they aren't doing something that one should be able to do within the context of the normal control scheme (that was my big issue with some of the QTEs in Shenmue). Rope-running presumably isn't going to happening very often in Heavenly Sword, so having a QTE which gives one some control over the sequence makes sense (as opposed to merely watching a noninteractive cinema of Nariko running the rope or her magically appearing on the other side).The rope running sequence was pretty easy, but its the sequence that opens up chapter 2, so perhaps things will get more challenging down the line.

The GoW1 and 2 QTEs tended to work well (wrestling a guys weapon away from him and them doing something horrible to him) though I admit I wasn't a fan of many of the QTEs in Shenmue or RE4.

Itagaki has way too much mouth considering the fact that he is content to remake his one quality game over and over again when he is not offering fetishistic garbage meant to be played with one hand. George Lucas once made quality movies, but after the atrocities that were the last three Star Wars movies, I don't think filmmakers aspiring to greatness should listen to anything that he has to say.

CarnageHeart

Agreed, I thought the QTEs in GOW were very well done. It isn't just mashing a random sequence of buttons, it flows nicely with the combat. It also wasn't a death sentence if you screw up. HS seems to be doing those exact same things with it.

I really like button pressing sequences like that, and even though I don't have a PS3 and will probably never play Heavenly Sword, I like what they're doing. Many devs just add cutscenes where the user has no control, and I absolutely hate that. It's good to have a bit of a break from the standard action but still allow you to remain in control of your character.MyopicCanadian

Exactly and if they aren't overused they provide a nice balance between user controller actions and movies.

Itagaki is right on this one. After all who made NG.anime-2k3

George Lucas could say 'Who made The Empire Strikes Back?' when criticizing the likes of Dark City and Serenity, but the obvious rejoinder would be 'Who made The Phantom Menace?'.

[QUOTE="anime-2k3"]Itagaki is right on this one. After all who made NG.CarnageHeart

George Lucas could say 'Who made The Empire Strikes Back?' when criticizing the likes of Dark City and Serenity, but the obvious rejoinder would be 'Who made The Phantom Menace?'.

A whittier rejoinder would be Irvin Kirshner made Empire and it is the best of all 6 movies. Oh and Itagaki is wrong, after all....who made NG.....3 times!

[QUOTE="anime-2k3"]Itagaki is right on this one. After all who made NG.CarnageHeart

George Lucas could say 'Who made The Empire Strikes Back?' when criticizing the likes of Dark City and Serenity, but the obvious rejoinder would be 'Who made The Phantom Menace?'.

Why don't people do the same with Itagaki by saying "Who made Dead or Alive Xtreme 2?"

[QUOTE="anime-2k3"]Itagaki is right on this one. After all who made NG.CarnageHeart

George Lucas could say 'Who made The Empire Strikes Back?' when criticizing the likes of Dark City and Serenity, but the obvious rejoinder would be 'Who made The Phantom Menace?'.

[QUOTE="CodeMunki"][QUOTE="EdgecrusherAza"]

I actually agree with him about interactive cutscenes. I find them incredibly annoying most of the time, and its the one and only thing that I absolutely did not like about Resident Evil 4.

I'd be trying to watch a scene and listen to what characters are saying, then they have to break my immersion by just throwing a random button up there for a mili-second. Miss it, game over. Annoyed. Of course, it wouldn't have been as bad if it wasn't a RANDOM button every time so you could just memorize it. Towards the end of the game, these random scenes were upwards of a half dozen button presses.

EdgecrusherAza

For some reason, I can't remember how I felt about GOW2's cutscenes. But if they were like RE4's, then yeah...not a fan of that style. You're right, though, in the Wii version they're easier to pull off. However, towards the end of the game they still got pretty annoying, the worst of which SPOILER!!!!!is the Krauser confrontation.

Like Carnage says, there's a right and a wrong way to do those kinds of scenes. If it breaks my immersion instead of adding to it, then IMO its pointless.

I hope the entire concept of QTE is buried after the release of Heavenly Sword. The clostst thing to QTE that I found enjoyable were the little "Mexican standoff" parts in the new Stranglehold game. Although I'm not sure that even qualifies.

[QUOTE="anime-2k3"]Itagaki is right on this one. After all who made NG.CarnageHeart

George Lucas could say 'Who made The Empire Strikes Back?' when criticizing the likes of Dark City and Serenity, but the obvious rejoinder would be 'Who made The Phantom Menace?'.

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

[QUOTE="anime-2k3"]Itagaki is right on this one. After all who made NG.AlwaysSoft

George Lucas could say 'Who made The Empire Strikes Back?' when criticizing the likes of Dark City and Serenity, but the obvious rejoinder would be 'Who made The Phantom Menace?'.

He made DoA Xtreme Beach Volleyball... and a sequel to it. They may not be in the same genre but I don't see why that matters, a bad game is a bad game.

I don't remember Itagaki ever complimenting an action game that wasn't his own, infact just the opposite so I've never respected him as a person. He's done it with fighting games as well comparing them to his DOA franchise. This isn't new, and I completely agree with Kyle's explanation. I got an incredible high when I played God of War's hydra boss because of those very interactive moments. Resident Evil 4's knife dual was a very tense sequence because of the interactivity as well. visionary

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

[QUOTE="anime-2k3"]Itagaki is right on this one. After all who made NG.gunswordfist

George Lucas could say 'Who made The Empire Strikes Back?' when criticizing the likes of Dark City and Serenity, but the obvious rejoinder would be 'Who made The Phantom Menace?'.

...... And come on. Cowboy Bebop? Just no........

Can anyone point out onscreen prompts to push certain buttons in Ninja Gaiden? Was that not a great game moreso because of it? I for one love the fact that there is none of that in there. It is more immersive and lends to the feeling that the player is in complete control of the character. Even in GOW I and II it was cool to see those cut scenes after hitting the correct sequences of buttons, but it also felt a bit detached because of it.

Ninja Gaiden was so ultimately incredible because every move was of the player's making, and you truly needed to know what you were doing to pull off great moves that did not feel like you were being hand held through them.

Prompting players to press buttons, while effective, is still less of an experience.

[QUOTE="gunswordfist"][QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

[QUOTE="anime-2k3"]Itagaki is right on this one. After all who made NG.AlwaysSoft

George Lucas could say 'Who made The Empire Strikes Back?' when criticizing the likes of Dark City and Serenity, but the obvious rejoinder would be 'Who made The Phantom Menace?'.

...... And come on. Cowboy Bebop? Just no........

[QUOTE="visionary"]I don't remember Itagaki ever complimenting an action game that wasn't his own, infact just the opposite so I've never respected him as a person. He's done it with fighting games as well comparing them to his DOA franchise. This isn't new, and I completely agree with Kyle's explanation. I got an incredible high when I played God of War's hydra boss because of those very interactive moments. Resident Evil 4's knife dual was a very tense sequence because of the interactivity as well. AlwaysSoft

[QUOTE="AlwaysSoft"][QUOTE="visionary"]I don't remember Itagaki ever complimenting an action game that wasn't his own, infact just the opposite so I've never respected him as a person. He's done it with fighting games as well comparing them to his DOA franchise. This isn't new, and I completely agree with Kyle's explanation. I got an incredible high when I played God of War's hydra boss because of those very interactive moments. Resident Evil 4's knife dual was a very tense sequence because of the interactivity as well. gunswordfist

Jaffe is a kickbutt developer (TM: Black, God of War and Twisted Metal 2 were superb) who pours his heart into his games and stopped making epic games because his heart wasn't in it anymore. Better to hand off design responsibilities to people who are still willing/able to make them such as Cory Balrog than to hold onto the reins for ego's sake and keep a game from realizing its greatness. Calling All Cars is a little light on content, but the core gameplay is great and interviews have indicated that David Jaffe is aware of its imperfections, so I can see him becoming just as good at developing smaller games as he became at developing epic games.

I agree with you that GoW's gameplay is a bit on the simple side, but while I love DMC3 as much as the next guy, I didn't see GoW as a problem. I enjoy games with complex, demanding gameplay, but I don't think every developer needs to go that route. GoW made a lot of smart design decisions (awesome bosses, quality puzzles, memorable level design, intelligent spacing of save points, great story/character) that other games in the genre sometimes lack (DMC3 would have been much better received if the original had boasted the continue system of the remake).

[QUOTE="gunswordfist"][QUOTE="AlwaysSoft"][QUOTE="visionary"]I don't remember Itagaki ever complimenting an action game that wasn't his own, infact just the opposite so I've never respected him as a person. He's done it with fighting games as well comparing them to his DOA franchise. This isn't new, and I completely agree with Kyle's explanation. I got an incredible high when I played God of War's hydra boss because of those very interactive moments. Resident Evil 4's knife dual was a very tense sequence because of the interactivity as well. CarnageHeart

Jaffe is a kickbutt developer (TM: Black, God of War and Twisted Metal 2 were superb) who pours his heart into his games and stopped making epic games because his heart wasn't in it anymore. Better to hand off design responsibilities to people who are still willing/able to make them such as Cory Balrog than to hold onto the reins for ego's sake and keep a game from realizing its greatness. Calling All Cars is a little light on content, but the core gameplay is great and interviews have indicated that David Jaffe is aware of its imperfections, so I can see him becoming just as good at developing smaller games as he became at developing epic games.

I agree with you that GoW's gameplay is a bit on the simple side, but while I love DMC3 as much as the next guy, I didn't see GoW as a problem. I enjoy games with complex, demanding gameplay, but I don't think every developer needs to go that route. GoW made a lot of smart design decisions (awesome bosses, quality puzzles, memorable level design, intelligent spacing of save points, great story/character) that other games in the genre sometimes lack (DMC3 would have been much better received if the original had boasted the continue system of the remake).