Non-Zero Sum Games

in Basic Game Theory, a non-zero sum game is a scenario where the overall result of all gains and losses do not equal to zero as opposed to a zero some game where gains are inversly proportionate to the losses and the overall result is equal to zero.

Confused ? Yeah me too, could you give me some examples of non-zero sum video games, preferabily negative-sum video games if possible.

whaaa...?

SaltyBet?

The currency is in infinite supply and payouts occur whether anyone loses or not, so gains do not necessitate losses and vice versa.

i think hes talking about competition. as in one person always getting the better end than the other

Hmm, are you having a business course or something at your school :)

But from my understanding its a situation where the total wealth in a system isn't equal to zero, so for example if we take a zero-sum game, it could be one where you see a game in your brothers room and take it, this will equal -1 in your brother and +1 in your gamelib. which is 0 gain , opposite to a non-zero game , which could be a situation where lets say you and your brother are off to different colleges but you both have a game the other person wants. So now you are both faced with 2 options, send or do not send, if you both don't send its a Loss-loss, if you send and your brother is a cheat its a loss-win and opposite or last one if you both send its a win-win.

But this is very simplified and if you are really interested in the theory you should try to check out TED or run down to your local library since there are tons of books on this subject.

Saltybets is not really a non-zero game , its more of a zero-sum game, since the only earning anything on this is the guys behind it. 1mill virtual coins are still 1mill virutal zero´s

@ Jacanuk

Nope ! Just curious about how things like this affect "the human condition", its purely recreational.

Was that all all just a wordy, rambling way to say that you're looking for a game that doesn't end with "good guys win, bad guys lose"?

@ El_Zo1212o

Ofcourse ! Feel free to chip in ! :D

@Lulu_Lulu: I've been thinking about it, and I can't really come up with anything other than Spec Ops: The Line.

@ El_Zo1212o

yeah but thats the games plot, the player has no on what happends there. I'm interested in something more mechanical, but something like Heavy Rain or Mass Effect could work aswell.

If this is the case, what a strange way of saying that :) because neither theory involves that.

Also only game where bad guys win and good guys lose i have seen is GTA and a bit Spec Ops.

@ Jacanuk

But in GTA the Protagonists win and the Antogonists lose.

Also the player has no influence over that, it was predertimined to be that way.

@Lulu_Lulu: Minecraft has no point other than to survive. Does that count?

Or what about the I Am the Knight mode in Arkham Origins? If you succeed there, yeah, good guys win and bad guys lose, but if you die, you die and have to start over from the beginning.

Interesting topic. At first glance through my library, the most obvious examples would be those two games, which are also among my favourite games this generation:

Osmos has multiple game modes. Some are zero-sum games (there's only a set amount of matter in the level, nothing is lost and nothing is created), and some are negative-sum games (there are levels with antimatter and matter which cancel eachother out, and at the end of the playthrough there will be less stuff in the level than when it started).

Nihilumbra is a story-driven negative-sum platformer. The player is trying to survive the game worlds, and is running against "the Void" which annihilates said game worlds and turns them into nothingness.

Hmm, i havent played it to the ending so no clue there

But you play as 3 bad guys, 1 even worse than the others so if all 3 avoid jail , then the bad guys win

Wouldn't MMOs be non zero some since resources are infinite.

@ Pedro

They Definately would be! Positive-Sum Games to exact.

actually I only brought this up because I have trouble identifying negative-sum games, either I suck at findinding them or they're even more of a niche than survival horror.

@ El_Zo1212o

I so desperately want to play that game.

Wouldn't RTS be negative sum games? Most RTS have limited resources that are used for construction and generating units. Once the buildings or units are destroyed there is no recuperating of the spent resources. Not all RTS games are like this but a good deal are.

You might have a point with something like StarCraft. Where there is a limited number of resources that can be harvested coupled with a limited number of units and buildings one can produce.

I guess Command and Conquer would be the obvious inverse of that. Most of the time the resources will in fact regrow and they never had a limit cap. So if one were so inclined, they could literally build until they processor on their PC burnt out.

@ Pedro

Thats more like it. I'l look into that.

What about currency in Bioshock Infinite, Theres a not exact a set amout through out the but its close enough, when you Die, you lose cash and that cash disapears into oblivion, the games enviroment won't compensate you for your loss !

@Lulu_Lulu: Which game? Spec Ops, Minecraft or Batman?

And if the financial end is what you're focussed on, GTAO might be the thing for you- when you die it costs you money, and the more people who repeat the same missions eventually see te payouts decreasing.

Its pretty confusing the way you use non-zero sum games and zero sum games.

But what you are after is basically games with limited resources that can if your not carefull end in a negative sum right?

As to Bioshock infinite the only part of the game that is like that is the 1999 part, and yes here you have a limited amount of cash that you can find and if you die and can't afford the extra life you are finished and have to restart.

@ Jacanuk

Uhm yeah I think so. Like I said, I'm just doing this for fun. Do you think a game is broken if a negative-sum is possible ? Is a ngative-sum scenario something to be avoided ?

Whatever you're smoking, I want in

@ El_Zo1212o

You've completely lost me. :(

This is alslo something that bothered me alot about President Evil, health items are not doled out randomly or evenly (Left 4 Deads AI Director), they put them in specific locations and they will only give you a herb if you really really really need it, like guts hanging out type of need it. Which can be very annoying when I'm playing on the 1hit incapicitation difficulty setting of the game because now everything from a head shot to a light breeze does 90% damage, and the game just won't hand over the damn herb.

Well I think we find our Negative-sum genre: Survival.

I say we boycott it immediately. GRRRRR !!!

Nah, a game is not broken if a negative sum is possible if thats what the dev´s went for in their game design.

But you should check out Godus thats a "negative-sum" game

@ Jacanuk

So how do we make that sort of concept fun then?

Yeah, just make sure you wear a wrist brace before you install it. That game is clickity click click crazy. Click.

@ ZZoMBiE13

is it like Black & White ? Without worship it became negative sum but with worship it became possitive sum. Creepy

lol :)

Not so much after their latest patch, which actually made the game pretty fun and they have some pretty amazing things in store for 1.4

Yeah, I've been meaning to get back in and try it out after the latest patch, but every minute spent not being Batman... is a minute I'm not being Batman.

Plus Spacebase DF-9 kinda became my go-to early access game since the last time I played Godus. It's a fun game though. I'm eager to see it's final state and it's fun making the journey with them. Big fan of Early Access titles. For people interested in how games are made, it's interesting to watch the process unfold.

My head hurts :(

Sorry, not in college. Ugh. Just reading that made my head hurt.