Objectification of women in video games, will it never end?

Was browsing around at upcoming games, and apparently PS4 has an upcoming game with a female protagonist, oh boy! Saw the screen shot and wanted to face-palm. Of course, there you have her. Down on her knees in a Sports Illustrated pose, wearing just a bustier and a thong. Evidently the outfit of the warriros, no? Clothes are so overrated. In the future, there is a major pants shortage, apparently only women's pants because there's plenty of men's.

PIC

Game devs continue to not take women seriously, and it's really annoying. Every female protagonist gets sexualized, but this is blatened objectification. Did they learn nothing from X-Blades? Please, if you're gonna make a female protagonist, make her respectable. Especially if you want your game to succeed and not totally flop. Quit trying to mix porn with video games, it's a polorizing waste of time and resources.

Would somebody PLEASE get that girl some pants and some freakin' armor, and get her into a pose that says "I'm ready to kick butt", instead of "I'm ready to suck...." something or another.

one of the consequences of being a helpless individual in an uncaring society is to sympathize with or even invent victim's causes that you have no part of.

THETRUEDOZAH

That isn't going to be the protaganist in Cyberpunk 2077.

that game is on every system (Xbox, PS, and PC).  

Guys are also treated a certain way in games, but there are SO many more male main characters so the variety is greater.

that game is on every system (Xbox, PS, and PC).  

 

Guys are also treated a certain way in games, but there are SO many more male main characters so the variety is greater.

NaveedLife

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

that game is on every system (Xbox, PS, and PC).  

 

Guys are also treated a certain way in games, but there are SO many more male main characters so the variety is greater.

The_Last_Ride

[QUOTE="The_Last_Ride"][QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

that game is on every system (Xbox, PS, and PC).  

 

Guys are also treated a certain way in games, but there are SO many more male main characters so the variety is greater.

XDeSuEhTX

....give me examples?  What would you like to see?  They cannot exactly have an obese woman playing a secret agent that gets in firefights.  The only game I can think of that actually goes way overboard is the DoA games.  And to single out games in how they portray either gender is wrong.  Movies and shows have typical portrayals of males and females as well.  Besides, who wants to look at an ugly character be it male or female?

[QUOTE="XDeSuEhTX"][QUOTE="The_Last_Ride"] This, everyone forgets males should have gleaming tan skin, muscles, dreamy eyes, good looking and always saves the day? Or just a bulky heavy gun action god. How is that not also going the other way around?NaveedLife

....give me examples?  What would you like to see?  They cannot exactly have an obese woman playing a secret agent that gets in firefights.  The only game I can think of that actually goes way overboard is the DoA games.  And to single out games in how they portray either gender is wrong.  Movies and shows have typical portrayals of males and females as well.  Besides, who wants to look at an ugly character be it male or female?

Huh? Who said anything about obese? Take for example lead character from Remember Me. She's a stereotypical hero, strong, believable, etc. She's not some danty bueaty pagent runner up, not hyper-sexualized or posing like a porn star, she wears clothing appropiate and looks like she belongs in the setting, rather than like a perverted mod. She's not a sex symbol, she's just a regular hero who happens to be female.

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

[QUOTE="XDeSuEhTX"] Well, these male characters are always portrayed in a positive light, even if they are stereotypical heroes at least they fit the part. At least there's some integrity there. But a Victoria's Secret model running around in her underwear saving the day? That would either be comically or really pervertedly out of place in this otherwise serious game. Seeing this in DOA Extreme Beach Volley Ball is one thing, but in games like this too? The funny thing is they make this crap this way because I guess they think it's a surefire sale to all the guys out there, but it ends up backfiring because when it comes down to it guys are mostly too embarrassed to buy or admit they own it.XDeSuEhTX

....give me examples?  What would you like to see?  They cannot exactly have an obese woman playing a secret agent that gets in firefights.  The only game I can think of that actually goes way overboard is the DoA games.  And to single out games in how they portray either gender is wrong.  Movies and shows have typical portrayals of males and females as well.  Besides, who wants to look at an ugly character be it male or female?

Huh? Who said anything about obese? Take for example lead character from Remember Me. She's a stereotypical hero, strong, believable, etc. She's not some danty bueaty pagent runner up, not hyper-sexualized or posing like a porn star, she wears clothing appropiate and looks like she belongs in the setting, rather than like a perverted mod. She's not a sex symbol, she's just a regular hero who happens to be female.

What is wrong with Joanna Dark from Perfect Dark?  What is wrong with Jade from Beyond Good and Evil?  What is wrong with Zelda from....Zelda?  What is wrong with peach from Mario?  What is wrong with Alex Vance from Half Life?  What is wrong with a number of girls in JRPG's, from Tales of Symphonia to FFX and Baten Kaitos?  

Seriously I don't get your problem with it.  Sure you could name many who are oversexualized, but you could name just as many male gaming characters who are ripped muscleheads.

You didn't mention the actual game or who it's made by, but the art style and the fact that it's a PS 4 game makes me think it's from a Japanese game developer.  Sexism is deeply embedded in Japanese culture and such images are commonplace there, so expect little else from Japan.

Also, don't expect much sympathy here, as complaints about sexism and other forms of discrimination in games tend to fall on deaf eyes.  This is not a particularly enlightened place when it comes to issues of diversity and inclusion.  Just look at the ads at the bottom of the forum pages.  With ads for the Lingerie Football League and sites touting the top ten hottest females of whatever category, the marketing demographics obviously have GS pegged as a bastion of sexism.

You didn't mention the actual game or who it's made by, but the art style and the fact that it's a PS 4 game makes me think it's from a Japanese game developer.  Sexism is deeply embedded in Japanese culture and such images are commonplace there, so expect little else from Japan.

Also, don't expect much sympathy here, as complaints about sexism and other forms of discrimination in games tend to fall on deaf eyes.  This is not a particularly enlightened place when it comes to issues of diversity and inclusion.  Just look at the ads at the bottom of the forum pages.  With ads for the Lingerie Football League and sites touting the top ten hottest females of whatever category, the marketing demographics obviously have GS pegged as a bastion of sexism.

capaho

They provided a link of the picture, which is the game Cyberpunk20something or other :P, by CD Project RED.  They are not a japanese company, and it is not just on PS4.  

You know that character is a cyborg right? She/it has more in common with a Terminator than a porn star.

And I'm sorry but I can't take the objectification of women thing seriously when I see women all day every day wearing shorts that have half their ass hanging out and shirts so low cut that they might as well not even be wearing shirts...and I love them for it. 

[QUOTE="XDeSuEhTX"]

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

....give me examples?  What would you like to see?  They cannot exactly have an obese woman playing a secret agent that gets in firefights.  The only game I can think of that actually goes way overboard is the DoA games.  And to single out games in how they portray either gender is wrong.  Movies and shows have typical portrayals of males and females as well.  Besides, who wants to look at an ugly character be it male or female?

NaveedLife

Huh? Who said anything about obese? Take for example lead character from Remember Me. She's a stereotypical hero, strong, believable, etc. She's not some danty bueaty pagent runner up, not hyper-sexualized or posing like a porn star, she wears clothing appropiate and looks like she belongs in the setting, rather than like a perverted mod. She's not a sex symbol, she's just a regular hero who happens to be female.

What is wrong with Joanna Dark from Perfect Dark?  What is wrong with Jade from Beyond Good and Evil?  What is wrong with Zelda from....Zelda?  What is wrong with peach from Mario?  What is wrong with Alex Vance from Half Life?  What is wrong with a number of girls in JRPG's, from Tales of Symphonia to FFX and Baten Kaitos?  

Seriously I don't get your problem with it.  Sure you could name many who are oversexualized, but you could name just as many male gaming characters who are ripped muscleheads.

Right now, I can only think of a few musclehead heroes in recent years, namely Gears, that Tecmo game the ripped off Gears, Team Fortress, and God of War. Sexualization is worse, do you think any of those games would succeed like they did if there were all a bunch of half-naked porn star looking female characters? Never.

You didn't mention the actual game or who it's made by, but the art style and the fact that it's a PS 4 game makes me think it's from a Japanese game developer.  Sexism is deeply embedded in Japanese culture and such images are commonplace there, so expect little else from Japan.

Also, don't expect much sympathy here, as complaints about sexism and other forms of discrimination in games tend to fall on deaf eyes.  This is not a particularly enlightened place when it comes to issues of diversity and inclusion.  Just look at the ads at the bottom of the forum pages.  With ads for the Lingerie Football League and sites touting the top ten hottest females of whatever category, the marketing demographics obviously have GS pegged as a bastion of sexism.

capaho

Probably because so far, the more popular articles and individuals discussing the subject for the past few months (Kotaku's Dragon's Crown article, Anita Saarkessian's videos) have contained silly, ignorant, paper thin arguments that seem like they're more focused on whipping up some fake controversy and pissing people off rather than having an intelligent discussion. You need look no further than TC's original post, as well as the post you yourself just made.

We know very little about this game yet. It is unfortunate that they couldn't put some more clothes on that woman, but we know nothing about the character in question or what kind of character development and backstory she will get. Or if she's just a minor character and some other fully clothed women will play a more important role in the story.

Also, your crazy assumptions and hatred for the Japanese is getting really old.

Seriously I don't get your problem with it.  Sure you could name many who are oversexualized, but you could name just as many male gaming characters who are ripped muscleheads.

NaveedLife

I'm not on TC's side, but...

When people complain about sexual objectification of women, then people reply with "but the musclehead men are objectified too!" its not the same. Musclehead male characters are designed that way to look powerful and strong. Not to look sexy and pleasing to the audience.

No designer ever goes "Let's give him some big bulging oiled up muscles to turn on our mostly male audience." or "Aw yeah, lets give him a little loincloth so our mostly male audience can get a good view of his tight round ass!"

[QUOTE="capaho"]

You didn't mention the actual game or who it's made by, but the art style and the fact that it's a PS 4 game makes me think it's from a Japanese game developer.  Sexism is deeply embedded in Japanese culture and such images are commonplace there, so expect little else from Japan.

Also, don't expect much sympathy here, as complaints about sexism and other forms of discrimination in games tend to fall on deaf eyes.  This is not a particularly enlightened place when it comes to issues of diversity and inclusion.  Just look at the ads at the bottom of the forum pages.  With ads for the Lingerie Football League and sites touting the top ten hottest females of whatever category, the marketing demographics obviously have GS pegged as a bastion of sexism.

Lucky_Krystal

Probably because so far, the threads dealing with the subject for the past few months (Dragon's Crown, Anita Saarkessian) have contained silly, ignorant, paper thin arguments that seem like they're more focused on whipping up some fake controversy and pissing people off rather than having an intelligent discussion. You need look no further than TC's original post, as well as the post you yourself just made.

We know very little about this game yet. It is unfortunate that they couldn't put some more clothes on that woman, but we know nothing about the character in question or what kind of character development and backstory she will get. Or if she's just a minor character and some other fully clothed women will play a more important role in the story.

Also, your crazy assumptions and hatred for the Japanese is getting really old.

I'm not whipping "fake" controversy, nor is my argument "paper thin". The only person who seems to have gotten pissed here is you, and it was because of a generalization someone else made. I won't say capaho is right about Japanese culture, but there's not much doubt that he's right about the crowd around these parts.XDeSuEhTX

You don't think so?

You took one picture of a game that isn't out yet and decided to make it the poster child for what's wrong with the gaming industry. Its been stated that the game isn't coming out until about 2015, so we know for sure that its in its early stages. There have been a few articles on sites like IGN that talk a little bit about the game in a general sense. But other than that, we hardly know anything. I can take a number of screen shots of any form of media and say its something it may not even be without even considering context. Its pretty easy. For example, look at this woman. Skimpy outfit. From a futuristic show with a similar vibe to CyberPunk 2077. Its easy to assume she must be some walking sexbot just by looking the title of the show and this picture.

You'd be wrong to assume that. Ghost in the Shell is a classic, and Major Motoko Kusanagi is one of the most beloved female heroines in anime. In the show, we see that she's smart, described as "a master of combat" and is squad leader of a special ops team. Is she sexist simply because she wears a skimpy outfit? An outfit she abandons in the second season of GITS at that?

What about this girl? She's got a huge rack, she must be a dumb bimbo with no personality that always needs to be saved right? Wrong. The Shin megami Tensei games always contain great characters and she is no different. She gets character development during the game, and her skills in battle are on par with her male counterparts. She also isn't bombarded with any juvenile jokes about her bust size, nor are they ever exposed. Yet you know what? 1up posted a shitty article called "A Month in Misogyny" and featured this character AND slammed devil survivor 2 after looking at only THIS PICTURE. Sounds a lot like what you just did doesn't it?

Don't get me wrong, I consider sexism a serious issue. But sometimes, people are absolutley rude and obnoxious about it. They take things out of context. They point fingers and insult others. And worst of all they end up hurting the cause more than helping it. They end up desensitizing people to the issue. So when we talk about serious issues, like real women in the real world being negatively affected by sexism, people close their ears and start singing, thinking this is going to be another "The curvature of this fictional character's boobs is sexist and anyone who likes this game is a sick, degenerate pervert!" kind of article.

rather than having an intelligent discussionLucky_Krystal

Anita Sarkeesian's videos are entirely based on the premise that women are constantly oppressed by men. How can we even have an intelligent discussion starting from such a completely stupid and absurd premise?Black_Knight_00

I just re-read my message over and it seems it was worded strangely. Did you take that message as "the responses in the threads were idiotic?" :P

Not what I meant (I should probably edit that). What you said is basically what I meant. Stuff like Saarkessian's videos, dude from Kotaku's Dragon's Crown article, as well as that shitty 1up article I mentioned don't do much but rile people up and desensitize them to the issue of sexism. How can we possibly have a serious discussion when in the case of those two articles, the author simply looks at ONE picture and then makes up all kinds of crazy and inaccurate assumptions? Or when Saarkessian is making outrageous claims about every little thing being a conspiracy by the patriarchy to bring women down?

It just doesn't do any good...

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] Anita Sarkeesian's videos are entirely based on the premise that women are constantly oppressed by men. How can we even have an intelligent discussion starting from such a completely stupid and absurd premise?Lucky_Krystal

I just re-read my message over and it seems it was worded strangely. Did you take that message as "the responses in the threads were idiotic?" :P

Not what I meant (I should probably edit that). What you said is basically what I meant. Stuff like Saarkessian's videos, dude from Kotaku's Dragon's Crown article, as well as that shitty 1up article I mentioned don't do much but rile people up and desensitize them to the issue of sexism. How can we possibly have a serious discussion when in the case of those two articles, the author simply looks at ONE picture and then makes up all kinds of crazy and inaccurate assumptions? Or when Saarkessian is making outrageous claims about every little thing being a conspiracy by the patriarchy to bring women down?

It just doesn't do any good...

They provided a link of the picture, which is the game Cyberpunk20something or other :P, by CD Project RED.  They are not a japanese company, and it is not just on PS4.

NaveedLife

[QUOTE="XDeSuEhTX"] I'm not whipping "fake" controversy, nor is my argument "paper thin". The only person who seems to have gotten pissed here is you, and it was because of a generalization someone else made. I won't say capaho is right about Japanese culture, but there's not much doubt that he's right about the crowd around these parts.Lucky_Krystal

You don't think so?

You took one picture of a game that isn't out yet and decided to make it the poster child for what's wrong with the gaming industry. Its been stated that the game isn't coming out until about 2015, so we know for sure that its in its early stages. There have been a few articles on sites like IGN that talk a little bit about the game in a general sense. But other than that, we hardly know anything. I can take a number of screen shots of any form of media and say its something it may not even be without even considering context. Its pretty easy. For example, look at this woman. Skimpy outfit. From a futuristic show with a similar vibe to CyberPunk 2077. Its easy to assume she must be some walking sexbot just by looking the title of the show and this picture.

You'd be wrong to assume that. Ghost in the Shell is a classic, and Major Motoko Kusanagi is one of the most beloved female heroines in anime. In the show, we see that she's smart, described as "a master of combat" and is squad leader of a special ops team. Is she sexist simply because she wears a skimpy outfit? An outfit she abandons in the second season of GITS at that?

What about this girl? She's got a huge rack, she must be a dumb bimbo with no personality that always needs to be saved right? Wrong. The Shin megami Tensei games always contain great characters and she is no different. She gets character development during the game, and her skills in battle are on par with her male counterparts. She also isn't bombarded with any juvenile jokes about her bust size, nor are they ever exposed. Yet you know what? 1up posted a shitty article called "A Month in Misogyny" and featured this character AND slammed devil survivor 2 after looking at only THIS PICTURE. Sounds a lot like what you just did doesn't it?

Don't get me wrong, I consider sexism a serious issue. But sometimes, people are absolutley rude and obnoxious about it. They take things out of context. They point fingers and insult others. And worst of all they end up hurting the cause more than helping it. They end up desensitizing people to the issue. So when we talk about serious issues, like real women in the real world being negatively affected by sexism, people close their ears and start singing, thinking this is going to be another "The curvature of this fictional character's boobs is sexist and anyone who likes this game is a sick, degenerate pervert!" kind of article.

Those characters are sort-of racy, but I still want to say they look tame in comparison. It's like I said before, they're taking this problem and exaserbating it. They aren't ever going to get extra marks from the critics for produceing pervy female characters, nobody. Not even if the game is good, and I'm sure they know it. Every time they create a female with mutant size breasts, it's gonna hurt the game more than it will help.

I don't see how this desensitizes the issue. I think I'm just calling these guys out on something obvious. I get there are people who care and those who don't care about sexism. I think it's great IGN at least has the balls stand up amidst all the sexist crap against women today and call it out, and say you know what, it's bullcrap how women are routinely depicted like sex objects in video games. They dropped the M-bomb yes, but I gets people thinking about something they really are NEVER made to think about. They might have insulted some decent games in their path, but I think the point they needed to make was more important than a game or two.

It's not like I went through a pile of screen shots and picked the worst example to pick on this game. This is beta, this is the basic idea they wanted to present to people. It's just about the only thing they've chosen to show because it's all they've done. Poking around further, I find a bunch of "concept art" of this character they had made before the pre-rendered version. They don't even consider this project a priority right now, yet evidently they've poored a bit of money hiring a real model to strike this pose and render the character after her. All they probably know right now is they want this half-naked chick at the forefront, the gameplay, I guess they'll come up with that later.

I'm trying to help. If anything, I wish the devs would see this post and realize stupidity before they make good on it.

Probably because so far, the more popular articles and individuals discussing the subject for the past few months (Kotaku's Dragon's Crown article, Anita Saarkessian's videos) have contained silly, ignorant, paper thin arguments that seem like they're more focused on whipping up some fake controversy and pissing people off rather than having an intelligent discussion. You need look no further than TC's original post, as well as the post you yourself just made.

We know very little about this game yet. It is unfortunate that they couldn't put some more clothes on that woman, but we know nothing about the character in question or what kind of character development and backstory she will get. Or if she's just a minor character and some other fully clothed women will play a more important role in the story.

Also, your crazy assumptions and hatred for the Japanese is getting really old.

Lucky_Krystal

That said, I maintain that most female characters in videogames are terrible and we are in dire need of better ones.Black_Knight_00

We could use some more strong female characters in games, I agree. But personally the way I see it, the lack of diversity in gaming (game and character wise) is reflective of the people behind the scenes making the games. I think there have been a lot of positive pushes to change the industry. Eventually, perhaps the industry will get more diverse and in turn, we will see a greater variety of characters and games. Educating everyone who hopes to come to the industry, calling out terrible behavior in the workplace that makes it more hostile for any group of people, and allowing for people to take creative risks instead of creating "Generic violent video game shooter #1068" or simply looking at what the other successful guy is doing and thinking "Let's copy that!!" seems far more productive than sensationial articles that are poorly researched and meant to rile people up. Oh, and as we discussed in that other thread, better writers.

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

Seriously I don't get your problem with it.  Sure you could name many who are oversexualized, but you could name just as many male gaming characters who are ripped muscleheads.

Lucky_Krystal

I'm not on TC's side, but...

When people complain about sexual objectification of women, then people reply with "but the musclehead men are objectified too!" its not the same. Musclehead male characters are designed that way to look powerful and strong. Not to look sexy and pleasing to the audience.

No designer ever goes "Let's give him some big bulging oiled up muscles to turn on our mostly male audience." or "Aw yeah, lets give him a little loincloth so our mostly male audience can get a good view of his tight round ass!"

Still, games feature ridiculously muscular men all the time and it fails to emulate what real men look like. It may promote physical prowess as opposed to sex appeal but it's still a stereotype and it still is annoying. 

Although I agree that the disproportionate women commonly found in games is a much larger issue I do feel there's some objectification going on for both ends. Of course, both designs are created in some way to please the male audience, but it was refreshing when Uncharted released because I got to play an action game as someone that didn't look like a mini-hulk.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] That said, I maintain that most female characters in videogames are terrible and we are in dire need of better ones.Lucky_Krystal

We could use some more strong female characters in games, I agree. But personally the way I see it, the lack of diversity in gaming (game and character wise) is reflective of the people behind the scenes making the games. I think there have been a lot of positive pushes to change the industry. Eventually, perhaps the industry will get more diverse and in turn, we will see a greater variety of characters and games. Educating everyone who hopes to come to the industry, calling out terrible behavior in the workplace that makes it more hostile for any group of people, and allowing for people to take creative risks instead of creating "Generic violent video game shooter #1068" or simply looking at what the other successful guy is doing and thinking "Let's copy that!!" seems far more productive than sensationial articles that are poorly researched and meant to rile people up. Oh, and as we discussed in that other thread, better writers.

Still, games feature ridiculously muscular men all the time and it fails to emulate what real men look like. It may promote physical prowess as opposed to sex appeal but it's still a stereotype and it still is annoying. 

Although I agree that the disproportionate women commonly found in games is a much larger issue I do feel there's some objectification going on for both ends. Of course, both designs are created in some way to please the male audience, but it was refreshing when Uncharted released because I got to play an action game as someone that didn't look like a mini-hulk.

IndianaPwns39

Those characters are sort-of racy, but I still want to say they look tame in comparison. It's like I said before, they're taking this problem and exaserbating it. They aren't ever going to get extra marks from the critics for produceing pervy female characters, nobody. Not even if the game is good, and I'm sure they know it. Every time they create a female with mutant size breasts, it's gonna hurt the game more than it will help.

I don't see how this desensitizes the issue. I think I'm just calling these guys out on something obvious. I get there are people who care and those who don't care about sexism. I think it's great IGN at least has the balls stand up amidst all the sexist crap against women today and call it out, and say you know what, it's bullcrap how women are routinely depicted like sex objects in video games. They dropped the M-bomb yes, but I gets people thinking about something they really are NEVER made to think about. They might have insulted some decent games in their path, but I think the point they needed to make was more important than a game or two.

It's not like I went through a pile of screen shots and picked the worst example to pick on this game. This is beta, this is the basic idea they wanted to present to people. It's just about the only thing they've chosen to show because it's all they've done. Poking around further, I find a bunch of "concept art" of this character they had made before the pre-rendered version. They don't even consider this project a priority right now, yet evidently they've poored a bit of money hiring a real model to strike this pose and render the character after her. All they probably know right now is they want this half-naked chick at the forefront, the gameplay, I guess they'll come up with that later.

I'm trying to help. If anything, I wish the devs would see this post and realize stupidity before they make good on it.

XDeSuEhTX

Ahhh...where do I even begin...?

I said 1UP not IGN. Google "1UP, A month in Misogyny" and read that article. It does not take "Balls" or even a brain to write such ignorant and sensationalist crap. They took some pictures, took them out of context, then had the gall to insult anyone who dares enjoys these games. They also insulted NIS America, making stupid assumptions about a company they obviously know nothing about. They also insulted Devil Survivor, again, a game they clearly know nothing about.

This kind of crap was repeated in Kotaku's Dragon's Crown article. I'm tired of seeing shit like this. All too often, people insult, point fingers, and post ignorant and inflammatory diatribes all in the name of "calling out sexism." It's stupid. They are NOT helping the cause. They are riling people up and turning them away from the issue. And its a shame, because there are some people who are speaking out and fighting against sexism and they're doing an awesome job of it. They say "this is the problem, this is my experience, its not so good now, but lets fix it and here's how." But they get ignored, ridiculed, and grouped with the people that jump on the sexist bandwagon to try to sound smart and just point fingers.

It makes me angry. I am all for calling out sexism and making the industry more inclusive, but...I'm not getting behind these people that fingerpoint, cherrypick, ridicule, and take everything out of context. Calling someone a sexist pig does not get them to think. It gets them mad and defensive. Let's absolutley talk about it. But not like this.

Also, read this. They have far more planned for this game than some half naked chick.

Every time they create a female with mutant size breasts, it's gonna hurt the game more than it will help.

XDeSuEhTX

I dont want to live in a world where a large breasted female is considered a "mutant".

The puzzle is: even if more women start working in the gaming industry, are we sure the stereotypes are going te decrease? I mean, I hear a lot of women praising Bayonetta or Dead or Alive as good representation of females and that simply baffles me.

On a side note, I have to side with capaho on the japan thing: japan does indeed have a discrimination problem, which has been deeply embedded in their culture for centuries. Women are often still perceived as second class citizens in that country, which is simply unacceptable.

Black_Knight_00

People really praise DOA's women as a good representation of females? :lol:

I agree about the Japan thing, there are many aspects of their culture I've come across that I don't like. The problem is, he brings that up all the time, sometimes in unrelated threads like this. This isn't a Japanese game, a simple google search would tell you that so...why?

Yet you have a habit of dismissing legitimate comments on the prevailing problem of sexism and other matters of insensitivity and exclusion in games with silly, ignorant, paper thin replies that fail to address the actual issues involved.

 As for my frequent comments on Japanese culture, they are neither assumptions, crazy or hateful. You wouldn't make such an ignorant refutation if you actually understood the magnitude of the problems Japan faces these days.capaho

When I said crazy assumptions, I meant in general. This is hardly the only thread where you've done such a thing with games and other topics, but I'm not about to link to old threads, as I think people have done that to you enough. Like I said to BK above, a simple google search would tell you a few things about this game and where it was made.

Also, I do not dismiss or argue against legitimate claims. I tend to argue against claims where the person is making incorrect assumptions, or that they are stirring up trouble instead of trying to spark intelligent discussions. It IS silly to take one photo of a game that isn't out yet and make assumptions about it being sexist. I told you in the Dragon's Crown thread that I take this issue seriously. But the way people handle it is baffling and usually ends up turning the thread or article into a "bash women fest." As a female, do you think I like seeing that? Like I said to TC, the best arguments I've seen that address sexism usually go "this is the problem/this is what happened to me or many others I know, its not good, but here's how we can fix it." Not "Look at the curvature of her breasts! Its sexist, the creators are sexist and so are the (assumed) drooling white males who play this game!!" It doesn't get people talking intelligently, it doesn't get them to rethink, it gets them riled up and defensive. You know what I do think are good articles that address sexism?

This article by Meagan Marie

This blog post by Kim Swift

Game industry advice, some of it which addresses women specifically

And of course the very moving #1Reasontobe Panel

Education, motivation, and no inflammatory finger pointing or generalizations. Now compare all this to sensationalist shit like the Kotaku and 1up article.

I suspect that the super macho or otherwise over-masculanized male protagonist/anti-hero is intended to appeal to the ego of the typical, heterosexual male gamer that appears to be the stereotypical target demographic of game developers. It plays into the hot chick fantasy aspect that is endemic to games, with the gamer fitting into the fantasy of the super stud who gets the hot chick. The primary male character is not intended to be overtly sexualized as that would scare off the target demographic.capaho

You're right, but it is designed in the same fashion as a disproportionate female: it's all stereotypical, overblown fantasy. In some sense, an overly muscular man is also objectification, though much different and less problematic than a sexualized female character.

You must have seen them too: girls who say "Kasumi kicks men's ass, so she's empowering females" and I'm like "No, she's not, she's meant as jerk off material" but they can't see that. I haven't read the whole exchange between you and capaho, but to me it's ok as long as you acknowledge there is a problem in japan (as opposed to the western world, btw)Black_Knight_00

Maybe as heterosexual women, they don't get the same kind of reaction from Kasumi's massive jugs and curves as a heterosexual male would. So they just see her kicking ass and think "OH ITS SO EMPOWERING!" Not saying its an excuse though. In fact, I'd never say she's empowering while she's rolling around in DOA Xtreme beach volleyball in a teeny bikini licking ice cream seductively. Different strokes I guess (no pun intended).

Also, yes I agree that the way Japan treats women is a lot worse than how women are treated in the Western world (though both are equally guilty of sexualizing women in their media). It's just, like I said, Capaho has brought that up far too many times, sometimes in times like these where it wasn't even warranted. His distaste for Japan clouds his ability to have a proper discussion about certain subjects dealing with Japanese media, including the objectification of women. His reaction to things like these is simply "LOL JAPAN." And he said (and I quote) "Expect little else from Japan."

I won't lie, there are quite a few Japanese games that do portray women poorly. But really? Expect little else? Has he never played a Shin Megami Tensei game? Certain Final Fantasy games? Tales of the Abyss? La Pucelle Tactics? Phantom Brave? Xenogears and Xenosaga? Valkyria Chronicles? Its quite possible that they are exceptions, but still, I'm sensing some bias there...

[QUOTE="Lucky_Krystal"]People really praise DOA's women as a good representation of females? :lol: I agree about the Japan thing, there are many aspects of their culture I've come across that I don't like. The problem is, he brings that up all the time, sometimes in unrelated threads like this. This isn't a Japanese game, a simple google search would tell you that so...why?Black_Knight_00

I think the argument that a woman can be sexy while holding her own against a man is just fine. 

Still, it's hard to defend something like DOA with such prominent, ummm, jiggle physics? 

Though DOA is interesting for a few reasons. One, it's an excellent, well designed fighting game that's more well known for the female cast of characters than the good fighting mechanics. Also, I wonder if the designer that said they originally lowered the breast size only to up them again due to fan outcry was true or not. If true, then we only have the community to blame. If not, it wouldn't be surprising considering Xtreme Beach Volleyball was a thing. 

When I said crazy assumptions, I meant in general. This is hardly the only thread where you've done such a thing with games and other topics, but I'm not about to link to old threads, as I think people have done that to you enough. Like I said to BK above, a simple google search would tell you a few things about this game and where it was made.

Lucky_Krystal

When you say crazy assumptions you are assuming that others are making assumptions.  I am intimately familiar with Japan and Japanese culture, my comments in that regard are not based on assumptions.  It's also not crazy to assume that an unfamiliar game with Japanese style art and a Japanese name glowing in the background is a Japanese game.  You shouldn't be so quick to accuse others of making assumptions when your own accusations are based on assumptions.

It's also not crazy to assume that an unfamiliar game with Japanese style art and a Japanese name glowing in the background is a Japanese game.capaho

She's npt assuming you are making assumptions, you're making assumptions, you just said so yourself. You only contest the crazy part, I don't think your crazy. You are just a pseudo-intellectuall fluff meister who comes across as a generic try hard poser.

Randolph

That's correct, I only contested the crazy part of the accusation.  Otherwise, I made a logical assumption about the origin of the game based on the image that was presented, albeit an erroneous assumption, the faulty premise being that a game that appeared to be Japanese in origin would actually be Japanese in origin.  Otherwise, your assumption about me seems rather crazy.

[QUOTE="XDeSuEhTX"] Those characters are sort-of racy, but I still want to say they look tame in comparison. It's like I said before, they're taking this problem and exaserbating it. They aren't ever going to get extra marks from the critics for produceing pervy female characters, nobody. Not even if the game is good, and I'm sure they know it. Every time they create a female with mutant size breasts, it's gonna hurt the game more than it will help.

I don't see how this desensitizes the issue. I think I'm just calling these guys out on something obvious. I get there are people who care and those who don't care about sexism. I think it's great IGN at least has the balls stand up amidst all the sexist crap against women today and call it out, and say you know what, it's bullcrap how women are routinely depicted like sex objects in video games. They dropped the M-bomb yes, but I gets people thinking about something they really are NEVER made to think about. They might have insulted some decent games in their path, but I think the point they needed to make was more important than a game or two.

It's not like I went through a pile of screen shots and picked the worst example to pick on this game. This is beta, this is the basic idea they wanted to present to people. It's just about the only thing they've chosen to show because it's all they've done. Poking around further, I find a bunch of "concept art" of this character they had made before the pre-rendered version. They don't even consider this project a priority right now, yet evidently they've poored a bit of money hiring a real model to strike this pose and render the character after her. All they probably know right now is they want this half-naked chick at the forefront, the gameplay, I guess they'll come up with that later.

I'm trying to help. If anything, I wish the devs would see this post and realize stupidity before they make good on it.

Lucky_Krystal

Ahhh...where do I even begin...?

I said 1UP not IGN. Google "1UP, A month in Misogyny" and read that article. It does not take "Balls" or even a brain to write such ignorant and sensationalist crap. They took some pictures, took them out of context, then had the gall to insult anyone who dares enjoys these games. They also insulted NIS America, making stupid assumptions about a company they obviously know nothing about. They also insulted Devil Survivor, again, a game they clearly know nothing about.

This kind of crap was repeated in Kotaku's Dragon's Crown article. I'm tired of seeing shit like this. All too often, people insult, point fingers, and post ignorant and inflammatory diatribes all in the name of "calling out sexism." It's stupid. They are NOT helping the cause. They are riling people up and turning them away from the issue. And its a shame, because there are some people who are speaking out and fighting against sexism and they're doing an awesome job of it. They say "this is the problem, this is my experience, its not so good now, but lets fix it and here's how." But they get ignored, ridiculed, and grouped with the people that jump on the sexist bandwagon to try to sound smart and just point fingers.

It makes me angry. I am all for calling out sexism and making the industry more inclusive, but...I'm not getting behind these people that fingerpoint, cherrypick, ridicule, and take everything out of context. Calling someone a sexist pig does not get them to think. It gets them mad and defensive. Let's absolutley talk about it. But not like this.

Also, read this. They have far more planned for this game than some half naked chick.

I seriously didn't think the 1UP article was out of line. I know they pushed a botton using the m-word, but honestly, it was warranted. I think you call it sensationalist to downplay the importance of the subject. You've basically said in recent posts, we shouldn't ever make a big deal of it. Because talking about it isn't going to help. lol wut? It really doesn't matter if they knew Devil Survivor, the concept art was the subject. They were spot on about NIS, they totally are pandering to the pedo market, and then they localize the more tame stuff over here. Games like Hyperdeminsion that most all critics agree on, very sexual and perverted, but not very fun. Just because they chose to cite Japanese content, which they probably don't have a preference for, and you seem to favor, doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about.

Those who retaliate with anger are usually the ones who don't care, maybe even don't believe sexism exists. Anything that disrupts their good time, they're gonna get riled up and start using derogitory slurs against homosexual men to try and shut someone up. No surprise there.

And did I not personally say what the problem was, what we've already learned from this sort of thing, and offer a solution in the OP? I believe I did, and that was all I did. You seem to say we should talk about these things, but at the same time not talk about them. This is not out of context, unless they're making a soft porn game, keep women clothed and with some dignity. I'm pretty sure Cyberpunk will not be a soft porn game. It's a shooter/rpg hybrid (supposidly). This is glaringly obvious. They're setting themselves up for it as the game draws nearer, I'm a bit earlier to it, but my sentiment will be echoed wait and see.

Otherwise, your assumption about me seems rather crazy.capaho

one of the consequences of being a helpless individual in an uncaring society is to sympathize with or even invent victim's causes that you have no part of.

THETRUEDOZAH

[QUOTE="THETRUEDOZAH"]

one of the consequences of being a helpless individual in an uncaring society is to sympathize with or even invent victim's causes that you have no part of.

Randolph

Nice try, but bullcrap. A cop out is a freakin' cop out, and you can go ahead.

Nice try, but bullcrap. A cop out is a freakin' cop out, and you can go ahead.XDeSuEhTX

[QUOTE="capaho"]Otherwise, your assumption about me seems rather crazy.Randolph

At the risk of venturing another assumption here, I believe the OP's argument is a hers rather than a his.

[QUOTE="XDeSuEhTX"]Nice try, but bullcrap. A cop out is a freakin' cop out, and you can go ahead.Randolph

That doesn't make sense. I stated in the OP what the problem was with this game already, why it's a problem, why it doesn't work, and how it should be corrected. How would what I said drive people away? How is that "hurting the cause"? Because sexism in video games isn't important enough to complain about? It doesn't ever need to be pointed out, not even on a video game forum? Puhlease.

[QUOTE="capaho"]Otherwise, your assumption about me seems rather crazy.Randolph

Stop declaring mission accomplished George W. You can't just say "we win, wee win, nanana boo boo" and think it counts for something. Nothing, and I mean nothing about my point in the OP has really even been challanged. "Give up, you're trying to fight battles you can win, you just make it worse". That is pathetic. Really pathetic.

[QUOTE="NaveedLife"]

Seriously I don't get your problem with it.  Sure you could name many who are oversexualized, but you could name just as many male gaming characters who are ripped muscleheads.

Lucky_Krystal

I'm not on TC's side, but...

When people complain about sexual objectification of women, then people reply with "but the musclehead men are objectified too!" its not the same. Musclehead male characters are designed that way to look powerful and strong. Not to look sexy and pleasing to the audience.

No designer ever goes "Let's give him some big bulging oiled up muscles to turn on our mostly male audience." or "Aw yeah, lets give him a little loincloth so our mostly male audience can get a good view of his tight round ass!"

It's not their fault that the vast majority of gamers are male.  Most females are turned on by very masculine men, so the end result is the same.  And if not that, then the suave playboy type like James Bond, Nathan Drake, and many others.  

At this point you are singling out the female roles purely because more guys play these games than girls.  ummm ok....  And for the TC to say there has NEVER been a good lead role for a female is full of crap.  For example, please tell me what is wrong with Faith in Mirror's Edge?

When you say crazy assumptions you are assuming that others are making assumptions.  I am intimately familiar with Japan and Japanese culture, my comments in that regard are not based on assumptions.  It's also not crazy to assume that an unfamiliar game with Japanese style art and a Japanese name glowing in the background is a Japanese game.  You shouldn't be so quick to accuse others of making assumptions when your own accusations are based on assumptions.

capaho

Uh...what?

Capaho, I'm saying YOU ALWAYS DO THIS. You come into a thread and make some outlandish statements that end up pissing people off, thinking you're saying something smart and enlightening. You did this crap in the Sleeping Dogs and Dragon's crown thread. Then when people call you out on your assumptions and faulty arguments, you get defensive like a child and start attacking people. Then you later say "Its because people can't handle different opinions" or "its because people are insensitive to the issue." No capaho, its because when you say crazy things in PGD, you are going to get called out for it. Statements like the ones you make may fly in that cesspool of ignorance System Wars but not here.

Also, this game does not have a Japanese art style and looking at one word on a sign (a sign in English at that) does not give hint to the country of origin being Japan." Also, you always hide behind that "I've spent considerable time in Japan, I know them," schtick but your frequent comments don't give any hints to that. Your blanket statements and rather sparse criticism of Japan isn't much different from someone who's had limited exposure to the culture. I've heard far better criticism of Japan from people who spent far less time there than you did.

You came in, you made an ignorant statement that implied that you clearly didn't do your research, did you really think you weren't going to get called out on it? Also, once again, thanks for ignoring 90% of my argument and cherrypicking certain parts in an attempt to "school" me. I assume you agree with everything else I wrote and only took issue with that one little paragraph?

.

I seriously didn't think the 1UP article was out of line. I know they pushed a botton using the m-word, but honestly, it was warranted. I think you call it sensationalist to downplay the importance of the subject. You've basically said in recent posts, we shouldn't ever make a big deal of it. Because talking about it isn't going to help. lol wut? It really doesn't matter if they knew Devil Survivor, the concept art was the subject. They were spot on about NIS, they totally are pandering to the pedo market, and then they localize the more tame stuff over here. Games like Hyperdeminsion that most all critics agree on, very sexual and perverted, but not very fun. Just because they chose to cite Japanese content, which they probably don't have a preference for, and you seem to favor, doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about.

Those who retaliate with anger are usually the ones who don't care, maybe even don't believe sexism exists. Anything that disrupts their good time, they're gonna get riled up and start using derogitory slurs against homosexual men to try and shut someone up. No surprise there.

And did I not personally say what the problem was, what we've already learned from this sort of thing, and offer a solution in the OP? I believe I did, and that was all I did. You seem to say we should talk about these things, but at the same time not talk about them. This is not out of context, unless they're making a soft porn game, keep women clothed and with some dignity. I'm pretty sure Cyberpunk will not be a soft porn game. It's a shooter/rpg hybrid (supposidly). This is glaringly obvious. They're setting themselves up for it as the game draws nearer, I'm a bit earlier to it, but my sentiment will be echoed wait and see.

XDeSuEhTX

I get the impression you haven't read or understood a single post I've made in this thread. That and/or you're misinterpreting them. If you really see nothing wrong with articles like that and if you really believe the delusional and extremely ignorant statements you just made in this post, then we probably have nothing more to discuss. Read everything I've written in this thread so far (not just my responses to you). Especially the links I've posted that show good criticism of sexism.

Also, next time I try to seriously discuss sexism without being rude and ignorant about it, and I get told "STFU bitch, get back in the kitchen," I'll be sure to affectionately think of people like you and Capaho and what you've been doing to "fight the good fight."  :roll: