Saint's Row 2 stirring up a beesnest

Okay, some of you may know that I have a lot of respect for the Saint's Row franchise. I think it is the best GTA-style game aside from GTA itself and it stands a bit above all the other clones out there.

But I cannot understand the why all the newer Saint's Row II trailers are full of crap talk aimed at GTA IV. This is sort of like The Monkees calling out The Beatles. I see Saint's Row II offering something different than GTA IV but not even the same level of polish or cohesiveness. Could Violition really be that arrogant as to make fun of the game they pretty much ripped off?

I just viewed those trailers as pretty childish. I usually enjoy craptalk in the industry but this is just plain foolish. I wonder what kind of characters, signs, missions we'll see in the next GTA in retaliation for these remarks.

Oh wow, this does sound pretty stupid :?

What exactly did they say/do in the trailers that were snapping at GTA?

Oh wow, this does sound pretty stupid :?

What exactly did they say/do in the trailers that were snapping at GTA?

criinok

In the Activities Trailer it said things like "Why go bowling when you can do this...." "Why go to the Cabaret when you could do this instead..."

I think their Ultor Trailer was the best. It just showed all the different things you could do and really didn't have the "We've got more so we're better than you" Vibe.

Using the shock paddles does look fun though

[QUOTE="criinok"]

Oh wow, this does sound pretty stupid :?

What exactly did they say/do in the trailers that were snapping at GTA?

smerlus

In the Activities Trailer it said things like "Why go bowling when you can do this...." "Why go to the Cabaret when you could do this instead..."

I think their Ultor Trailer was the best. It just showed all the different things you could do and really didn't have the "We've got more so we're better than you" Vibe.

Using the shock paddles does look fun though

Regardless of how you feel about the ads, Volition's advertisement team deserves a raise. I've never seen so many people excited about Saints Row. Before the ads, even mentioning Saints Row in the same breath as GTA would bring you a mountain of flames and insults on any and every gaming board. Now it seems that more often than not, people are actually expecting Saints Row 2 to show up GTA. Volition owes all that to those ingenious ads brewed up by their marketers.

My personal take? The game depicted in the ads does not appeal to me very much, but apparently it is exactly what a lot of people wanted and didn't get from GTA4.

[QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="criinok"]

Oh wow, this does sound pretty stupid :?

What exactly did they say/do in the trailers that were snapping at GTA?

Mash_Affect

In the Activities Trailer it said things like "Why go bowling when you can do this...." "Why go to the Cabaret when you could do this instead..."

I think their Ultor Trailer was the best. It just showed all the different things you could do and really didn't have the "We've got more so we're better than you" Vibe.

Using the shock paddles does look fun though

Regardless of how you feel about the ads, Volition's advertisement team deserves a raise. I've never seen so many people excited for about Saints Row. Before the ads, even mentioning Saints Row in the same breath as GTA would bring you a mountain of flames and insults on any gaming board across the net. Now it seems more often than not, people are actually expecting Saints Row 2 to show up GTA. Volition owes all that to those ingenious ads brewed up by their marketers.

My personal take? I don't like the game I see portrayed in the ads, but apparently it is exactly what people wanted and didn't get from GTA4.

saying I dislike the ads because they are childish isn't taking them seriously, in fact it's the exact opposite. They honestly don't appeal to me just because of the arrogant attitude portrayed in them especially when you add in the fact that Saint's Row wouldn't exist without GTA.

It's a bad precedent to start in the industry and I'm glad that no other devs care to do this. It would be stupid to see Halo making fun of Half-life and not just relying on what the game does different to sell itself.

I just hope Violition really stepped up their game. If they put out Saint's Row 2 and it suffers from screen tearing, disappearing vehicles, dropped textures like the original did, it won't matter how many activities they have over GTA IV, it will be seen as a junky game with a lot less polish than the game it's trying to clown.

[QUOTE="Mash_Affect"][QUOTE="smerlus"][QUOTE="criinok"]

Oh wow, this does sound pretty stupid :?

What exactly did they say/do in the trailers that were snapping at GTA?

smerlus

In the Activities Trailer it said things like "Why go bowling when you can do this...." "Why go to the Cabaret when you could do this instead..."

I think their Ultor Trailer was the best. It just showed all the different things you could do and really didn't have the "We've got more so we're better than you" Vibe.

Using the shock paddles does look fun though

Regardless of how you feel about the ads, Volition's advertisement team deserves a raise. I've never seen so many people excited for about Saints Row. Before the ads, even mentioning Saints Row in the same breath as GTA would bring you a mountain of flames and insults on any gaming board across the net. Now it seems more often than not, people are actually expecting Saints Row 2 to show up GTA. Volition owes all that to those ingenious ads brewed up by their marketers.

My personal take? I don't like the game I see portrayed in the ads, but apparently it is exactly what people wanted and didn't get from GTA4.

saying I dislike the ads because they are childish isn't taking them seriously, in fact it's the exact opposite. They honestly don't appeal to me just because of the arrogant attitude portrayed in them especially when you add in the fact that Saint's Row wouldn't exist without GTA.

It's a bad precedent to start in the industry and I'm glad that no other devs care to do this. It would be stupid to see Halo making fun of Half-life and not just relying on what the game does different to sell itself.

I just hope Violition really stepped up their game. If they put out Saint's Row 2 and it suffers from screen tearing, disappearing vehicles, dropped textures like the original did, it won't matter how many activities they have over GTA IV, it will be seen as a junky game with a lot less polish than the game it's trying to clown.

First of all, it's doubtful Volition has much of anything to do with the ad campaigns from the marketing company, and second of all, I highly doubt Volition thinks they're on top of the world just because Saints Row sold 1/10 of GTA4.

It's funny. Laugh. No need to make a deal out of something that isn't there.

Smerlus, you and I have shared feelings and viewpoints in several threads in the past, so it goes without saying that I respect your opinion. But I have to strongly disagree with you here.

I feel that Volition is (justifiably) showing a little retribution for how much disrespect they have recieved. I cite a few valid points:

The "GTA clone" label is very offensive, disrespectful and just plain closed-minded. Rockstar doesn't deserve to be eternally held on a pedestal for pioneering open-ended gamplay in a non-linear game environment. It's called innovation. They opened the door and others walked through it. The "clone logic" silently and errantly suggests that all RPG's and FPS's are clones of other games. Or that XBL is a clone of previous attempts to bring online gaming into the mainstream.

Furthermore, after beating their first game and following all the previews and videos regarding the second, it's clear to me that the people at Volition have shed their blood, sweat and tears trying to be innovative, to bring something fresh to the "sandbox" genre and to make Saints Row 2 the most fun it can be.

When Volition first announced Saints Row 2, people all over various gaming websites instantly branded it a "GTA clone" even though they hadn't seen a single pixel of the unfinished game. I'm not gonna rehash the pathetic SR2 vs. GTA4 threads again, (IMO, there's no comparison) but SR2 is shaping up to be a strong contender for GOTY, and as much trash as people have talked on SR over the past 4 months, Volition deserves to return the trash talk. Especially seeing how GTA supporters constantly called the Saints Row games "GTA clones" but ignored the fact that GTA4 blatantly borrowed a number of features from SR.

Smerlus, you and I have shared feelings and viewpoints in several threads in the past, so it goes without saying that I respect your opinion. But I have to strongly disagree with you here.

I feel that Volition is (justifiably) showing a little retribution for how much disrespect they have recieved. I cite a few valid points:

The "GTA clone" label is very offensive, disrespectful and just plain closed-minded. Rockstar doesn't deserve to be eternally held on a pedestal for pioneering open-ended gamplay in a non-linear game environment. It's called innovation. They opened the door and others walked through it. The "clone logic" silently and errantly suggests that all RPG's and FPS's are clones of other games. Or that XBL is a clone of previous attempts to bring online gaming into the mainstream.

Furthermore, after beating their first game and following all the previews and videos regarding the second, it's clear to me that the people at Volition have shed their blood, sweat and tears trying to be innovative, to bring something fresh to the "sandbox" genre and to make Saints Row 2 the most fun it can be.

When Volition first announced Saints Row 2, people all over various gaming websites instantly branded it a "GTA clone" even though they hadn't seen a single pixel of the unfinished game. I'm not gonna rehash the pathetic SR2 vs. GTA4 threads again, (IMO, there's no comparison) but SR2 is shaping up to be a strong contender for GOTY, and as much trash as people have talked on SR over the past 4 months, Volition deserves to return the trash talk. Especially seeing how GTA supporters constantly called the Saints Row games "GTA clones" but ignored the fact that GTA4 blatantly borrowed a number of features from SR.

EnigManic

The reason Saint's Row is considered a GTA clone is because Volition ripped off just about everything they could from GTA: SA, including the overall look and gangster thematic. The issue isn't about every open world game being branded a GTA clone but rather that something like Saint's Row is called a clone or a "rip-off" because it basically steals the entire premise and aesthetics from another game and adds a few tweaks. Saint's Row was painfully derivative of GTA: SA and actually offered far less to do, which is why, impressive technology advancements aside, it was dismissed for being a "me too" gaming experience.

Also, your talk of Volition wanting "respect" is pretty ridiculous, all things considered. Volition will earn respect when they do more than follow in the footsteps of others developers. Take for example The Punisher: that was a brilliant action game utilizing some radically divergent game play mechanics and features that to this day haven't been mimicked or equaled. That's the Volition I want to see at work.

The truth is that if Volition wanted respect, they should have opted to innovate rather than emulate. I love the sandbox formula and I welcome additions to the genre, which is why games like Crackdown and Mercenaries get plenty of attention. If Volition wanted to push the genre beyond pimps and ho's, they should have made something that hasn't yet been done, like a Blade Runner type sandbox game replete with hover cars and a massive, vertical cityscape. Instead, they are making yet another "gangsta" game because they can't see beyond the established paradigm of GTA.

Do you not realize how silly it is to venerate their innovation when they are clearly working within the established parameters of a genre for fear of actually doing something truly unique? They could have implemented any number of settings for a sandbox game and yet they opt another tired, clichéd romp through urban gangland. Frankly, they bring the comparisons and criticism onto themselves.

Ironically, I actually think Saint's Row 2 looks better than it did several months ago. Volition was wise to delay the game for some much needed polish and the more recent videos have actually looked pretty solid. I even agree that SR2 may offers those looking for more excess and variety a fix they didn't get in GTAIV, though that doesn't mean SR2 is the better game and it certainly doesn't make Volition some sort of underappreciated asset. Rockstar has been the company that defined the genre and they continue to be the most prolific and effective propellant for innovation within it. Some people may have had a problem with GTA IV's "lack of content" but I'd rather have something polished and focused versus a kitchen sink approach.

For the record, I may actually nab Saint's Row 2 if the game ends up being fun but nothing in the videos has struck me as being anywhere near the quality of GTA IV. I do believe it has a chance of being something far better than the original and I hope Volition does manage to interject some differentiating elements into the game but at the same time, those videos, however benign, don't amuse me personally and I think directly comparing SR2 to GTAIV will harm the former much more than the latter.

[QUOTE="EnigManic"]

Smerlus, you and I have shared feelings and viewpoints in several threads in the past, so it goes without saying that I respect your opinion. But I have to strongly disagree with you here.

I feel that Volition is (justifiably) showing a little retribution for how much disrespect they have recieved. I cite a few valid points:

The "GTA clone" label is very offensive, disrespectful and just plain closed-minded. Rockstar doesn't deserve to be eternally held on a pedestal for pioneering open-ended gamplay in a non-linear game environment. It's called innovation. They opened the door and others walked through it. The "clone logic" silently and errantly suggests that all RPG's and FPS's are clones of other games. Or that XBL is a clone of previous attempts to bring online gaming into the mainstream.

Furthermore, after beating their first game and following all the previews and videos regarding the second, it's clear to me that the people at Volition have shed their blood, sweat and tears trying to be innovative, to bring something fresh to the "sandbox" genre and to make Saints Row 2 the most fun it can be.

When Volition first announced Saints Row 2, people all over various gaming websites instantly branded it a "GTA clone" even though they hadn't seen a single pixel of the unfinished game. I'm not gonna rehash the pathetic SR2 vs. GTA4 threads again, (IMO, there's no comparison) but SR2 is shaping up to be a strong contender for GOTY, and as much trash as people have talked on SR over the past 4 months, Volition deserves to return the trash talk. Especially seeing how GTA supporters constantly called the Saints Row games "GTA clones" but ignored the fact that GTA4 blatantly borrowed a number of features from SR.

Grammaton-Cleric

The reason Saint's Row is considered a GTA clone is because Volition ripped off just about everything they could from GTA: SA, including the overall look and gangster thematic. The issue isn't about every open world game being branded a GTA clone but rather that something like Saint's Row is called a clone or a "rip-off" because it basically steals the entire premise and aesthetics from another game and adds a few tweaks. Saint's Row was painfully derivative of GTA: SA and actually offered far less to do, which is why, impressive technology advancements aside, it was dismissed for being a "me too" gaming experience.

Also, your talk of Volition wanting "respect" is pretty ridiculous, all things considered. Volition will earn respect when they do more than follow in the footsteps of others developers. Take for example The Punisher: that was a brilliant action game utilizing some radically divergent game play mechanics and features that to this day haven't been mimicked or equaled. That's the Volition I want to see at work.

The truth is that if Volition wanted respect, they should have opted to innovate rather than emulate. I love the sandbox formula and I welcome additions to the genre, which is why games like Crackdown and Mercenaries get plenty of attention. If Volition wanted to push the genre beyond pimps and ho's, they should have made something that hasn't yet been done, like a Blade Runner type sandbox game replete with hover cars and a massive, vertical cityscape. Instead, they are making yet another "gangsta" game because they can't see beyond the established paradigm of GTA.

Do you not realize how silly it is to venerate their innovation when they are clearly working within the established parameters of a genre for fear of actually doing something truly unique? They could have implemented any number of settings for a sandbox game and yet they opt another tired, clichéd romp through urban gangland. Frankly, they bring the comparisons and criticism onto themselves.

Ironically, I actually think Saint's Row 2 looks better than it did several months ago. Volition was wise to delay the game for some much needed polish and the more recent videos have actually looked pretty solid. I even agree that SR2 may offers those looking for more excess and variety a fix they didn't get in GTAIV, though that doesn't mean SR2 is the better game and it certainly doesn't make Volition some sort of underappreciated asset. Rockstar has been the company that defined the genre and they continue to be the most prolific and effective propellant for innovation within it. Some people may have had a problem with GTA IV's "lack of content" but I'd rather have something polished and focused versus a kitchen sink approach.

For the record, I may actually nab Saint's Row 2 if the game ends up being fun but nothing in the videos has struck me as being anywhere near the quality of GTA IV. I do believe it has a chance of being something far better than the original and I hope Volition does manage to interject some differentiating elements into the game but at the same time, those videos, however benign, don't amuse me personally and I think directly comparing SR2 to GTAIV will harm the former much more than the latter.

I very much agree, especially with the comment about the Volition's criticisms being brought on themselves. I also see contradiction in what EnigMatic said about Saints Row's GTA comparisons between disrespectful and (especially) close-minded. Well if thats the case, why is Volition, themselves directly comparing Saints Row to GTA?

By "taking them seriously" I meant that you were looking too much into something that is meant to be funny and entertaining, and thinking it means that Volition believes they're the kings of the world right now.

First of all, it's doubtful Volition has much of anything to do with the ad campaigns from the marketing company, and second of all, I highly doubt Volition thinks they're on top of the world just because Saints Row sold 1/10 of GTA4.

It's funny. Laugh. No need to make a deal out of something that isn't there.

Mash_Affect

The problem is...the trailers aren't funny. Now if they were witty or filled with satire...I would probably appreciate them but as they are they're just nonsense.

[QUOTE="EnigManic"]

Smerlus, you and I have shared feelings and viewpoints in several threads in the past, so it goes without saying that I respect your opinion. But I have to strongly disagree with you here.

I feel that Volition is (justifiably) showing a little retribution for how much disrespect they have recieved. I cite a few valid points:

The "GTA clone" label is very offensive, disrespectful and just plain closed-minded. Rockstar doesn't deserve to be eternally held on a pedestal for pioneering open-ended gamplay in a non-linear game environment. It's called innovation. They opened the door and others walked through it. The "clone logic" silently and errantly suggests that all RPG's and FPS's are clones of other games. Or that XBL is a clone of previous attempts to bring online gaming into the mainstream.

Furthermore, after beating their first game and following all the previews and videos regarding the second, it's clear to me that the people at Volition have shed their blood, sweat and tears trying to be innovative, to bring something fresh to the "sandbox" genre and to make Saints Row 2 the most fun it can be.

When Volition first announced Saints Row 2, people all over various gaming websites instantly branded it a "GTA clone" even though they hadn't seen a single pixel of the unfinished game. I'm not gonna rehash the pathetic SR2 vs. GTA4 threads again, (IMO, there's no comparison) but SR2 is shaping up to be a strong contender for GOTY, and as much trash as people have talked on SR over the past 4 months, Volition deserves to return the trash talk. Especially seeing how GTA supporters constantly called the Saints Row games "GTA clones" but ignored the fact that GTA4 blatantly borrowed a number of features from SR.

Grammaton-Cleric

The reason Saint's Row is considered a GTA clone is because Volition ripped off just about everything they could from GTA: SA, including the overall look and gangster thematic. The issue isn't about every open world game being branded a GTA clone but rather that something like Saint's Row is called a clone or a "rip-off" because it basically steals the entire premise and aesthetics from another game and adds a few tweaks. Saint's Row was painfully derivative of GTA: SA and actually offered far less to do, which is why, impressive technology advancements aside, it was dismissed for being a "me too" gaming experience.

Also, your talk of Volition wanting "respect" is pretty ridiculous, all things considered. Volition will earn respect when they do more than follow in the footsteps of others developers. Take for example The Punisher: that was a brilliant action game utilizing some radically divergent game play mechanics and features that to this day haven't been mimicked or equaled. That's the Volition I want to see at work.

The truth is that if Volition wanted respect, they should have opted to innovate rather than emulate. I love the sandbox formula and I welcome additions to the genre, which is why games like Crackdown and Mercenaries get plenty of attention. If Volition wanted to push the genre beyond pimps and ho's, they should have made something that hasn't yet been done, like a Blade Runner type sandbox game replete with hover cars and a massive, vertical cityscape. Instead, they are making yet another "gangsta" game because they can't see beyond the established paradigm of GTA.

Do you not realize how silly it is to venerate their innovation when they are clearly working within the established parameters of a genre for fear of actually doing something truly unique? They could have implemented any number of settings for a sandbox game and yet they opt another tired, clichéd romp through urban gangland. Frankly, they bring the comparisons and criticism onto themselves.

Ironically, I actually think Saint's Row 2 looks better than it did several months ago. Volition was wise to delay the game for some much needed polish and the more recent videos have actually looked pretty solid. I even agree that SR2 may offers those looking for more excess and variety a fix they didn't get in GTAIV, though that doesn't mean SR2 is the better game and it certainly doesn't make Volition some sort of underappreciated asset. Rockstar has been the company that defined the genre and they continue to be the most prolific and effective propellant for innovation within it. Some people may have had a problem with GTA IV's "lack of content" but I'd rather have something polished and focused versus a kitchen sink approach.

For the record, I may actually nab Saint's Row 2 if the game ends up being fun but nothing in the videos has struck me as being anywhere near the quality of GTA IV. I do believe it has a chance of being something far better than the original and I hope Volition does manage to interject some differentiating elements into the game but at the same time, those videos, however benign, don't amuse me personally and I think directly comparing SR2 to GTAIV will harm the former much more than the latter.

I wasn't bothered by SR being in the same genre or supposedly stealing the "gangsta" theme from one of the GTA games. All I cared about was whether or not the game was fun to play.

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"][QUOTE="EnigManic"]

Smerlus, you and I have shared feelings and viewpoints in several threads in the past, so it goes without saying that I respect your opinion. But I have to strongly disagree with you here.

I feel that Volition is (justifiably) showing a little retribution for how much disrespect they have recieved. I cite a few valid points:

The "GTA clone" label is very offensive, disrespectful and just plain closed-minded. Rockstar doesn't deserve to be eternally held on a pedestal for pioneering open-ended gamplay in a non-linear game environment. It's called innovation. They opened the door and others walked through it. The "clone logic" silently and errantly suggests that all RPG's and FPS's are clones of other games. Or that XBL is a clone of previous attempts to bring online gaming into the mainstream.

Furthermore, after beating their first game and following all the previews and videos regarding the second, it's clear to me that the people at Volition have shed their blood, sweat and tears trying to be innovative, to bring something fresh to the "sandbox" genre and to make Saints Row 2 the most fun it can be.

When Volition first announced Saints Row 2, people all over various gaming websites instantly branded it a "GTA clone" even though they hadn't seen a single pixel of the unfinished game. I'm not gonna rehash the pathetic SR2 vs. GTA4 threads again, (IMO, there's no comparison) but SR2 is shaping up to be a strong contender for GOTY, and as much trash as people have talked on SR over the past 4 months, Volition deserves to return the trash talk. Especially seeing how GTA supporters constantly called the Saints Row games "GTA clones" but ignored the fact that GTA4 blatantly borrowed a number of features from SR.

Mash_Affect

The reason Saint's Row is considered a GTA clone is because Volition ripped off just about everything they could from GTA: SA, including the overall look and gangster thematic. The issue isn't about every open world game being branded a GTA clone but rather that something like Saint's Row is called a clone or a "rip-off" because it basically steals the entire premise and aesthetics from another game and adds a few tweaks. Saint's Row was painfully derivative of GTA: SA and actually offered far less to do, which is why, impressive technology advancements aside, it was dismissed for being a "me too" gaming experience.

Also, your talk of Volition wanting "respect" is pretty ridiculous, all things considered. Volition will earn respect when they do more than follow in the footsteps of others developers. Take for example The Punisher: that was a brilliant action game utilizing some radically divergent game play mechanics and features that to this day haven't been mimicked or equaled. That's the Volition I want to see at work.

The truth is that if Volition wanted respect, they should have opted to innovate rather than emulate. I love the sandbox formula and I welcome additions to the genre, which is why games like Crackdown and Mercenaries get plenty of attention. If Volition wanted to push the genre beyond pimps and ho's, they should have made something that hasn't yet been done, like a Blade Runner type sandbox game replete with hover cars and a massive, vertical cityscape. Instead, they are making yet another "gangsta" game because they can't see beyond the established paradigm of GTA.

Do you not realize how silly it is to venerate their innovation when they are clearly working within the established parameters of a genre for fear of actually doing something truly unique? They could have implemented any number of settings for a sandbox game and yet they opt another tired, clichéd romp through urban gangland. Frankly, they bring the comparisons and criticism onto themselves.

Ironically, I actually think Saint's Row 2 looks better than it did several months ago. Volition was wise to delay the game for some much needed polish and the more recent videos have actually looked pretty solid. I even agree that SR2 may offers those looking for more excess and variety a fix they didn't get in GTAIV, though that doesn't mean SR2 is the better game and it certainly doesn't make Volition some sort of underappreciated asset. Rockstar has been the company that defined the genre and they continue to be the most prolific and effective propellant for innovation within it. Some people may have had a problem with GTA IV's "lack of content" but I'd rather have something polished and focused versus a kitchen sink approach.

For the record, I may actually nab Saint's Row 2 if the game ends up being fun but nothing in the videos has struck me as being anywhere near the quality of GTA IV. I do believe it has a chance of being something far better than the original and I hope Volition does manage to interject some differentiating elements into the game but at the same time, those videos, however benign, don't amuse me personally and I think directly comparing SR2 to GTAIV will harm the former much more than the latter.

I wasn't bothered by SR being in the same genre or supposedly stealing the "gangsta" theme from one of the GTA games. All I cared about was whether or not the game was fun to play.

I can see where you're coming from but I think you've missed the point. Saints Row didn't just copy the genre, but rather the entire gameplay mechanics. This is what they should avoid, because they're shooting themselves in the foot, they simply can't compare with GTA IV. What this seems to amount to, is making a game that's 'fun to play', yes, but really only aiming towards relative mediocratiy, which is a terrible start to any game.

Volition can do a few things. It can, as someone said before, totally change the theme, like crackdown did. What I think it should do though, is carry on. After Saints Row (which I loved btw), they have the necassary experience to move away from the GTA franchise, and incorporate different gameplay ideas and mechanics, thus moving it away from direct GTA IV references making SR an 'excellent' game in it's own right, rather than simply being second best. What Volition are doing, is simply adding more features and more mini-games. I'll hold my tongue till SR2 is released though, because I do want it to be good, but i'm not sure if packing a million little features is going to make a great game.

There are many valid points in this thread, But let me ask a hypothetical question:

Which game is better, Halo 2 or Resident Evil 4?

Pretty complex, huh? Both games achieved greatness in certain aspects. So to rate one better than the other simply comes down to your personal preference of what kind of features are important to you. Likewise, "GTA4 vs SR2" depends on whether you prefer graphics or content. But to blindly call one rubbish is closed-minded and unfair.

Furthermore, we're running around in circles over the clone argument. SARCASM ALERT! Yes, Saints Row is derivitive and entirely unoriginal because it involves gangsters. Thanks for the clarification. By the same logic, I suppose Baldur's Gate is a blatant clone of Diablo. Thanks for setting that straight.

Furthermore, for those of you citing "lack of innovation" on Volition's part.. If SR is such a ripoff, why did GTA4 borrow ideas from SR, like automatic navigation routes, customizable map waypoints and the use of a cell phone to store data and summon homies? Seems unfair when the shoe's on the other foot, huh?

[QUOTE="criinok"]

Oh wow, this does sound pretty stupid :?

What exactly did they say/do in the trailers that were snapping at GTA?

smerlus

In the Activities Trailer it said things like "Why go bowling when you can do this...." "Why go to the Cabaret when you could do this instead..."

I think their Ultor Trailer was the best. It just showed all the different things you could do and really didn't have the "We've got more so we're better than you" Vibe.

Using the shock paddles does look fun though

i thought it was funny

but imho gta did sorta shoot themselves in the foot by not putting in more activites

The trailer you are talking about is rather old. I also don't know why you have lost respect for THQ/Volition just because they were taking pot shots at Rockstar and if anything, it's about time someone was taking pot shots at Rockstar as Rockstar was doing it to other games and movies like Driver, True Crime, I can't remember all the references but there's tons. Also, GTA4 was such a let down for me.

Also, that video is pretty much true tho. The activities in GTA4 are boring, repetitive and flatout lame IMO. I still can't digest the **** of GTA4 and I had the game since release. I mean, what was Rockstar thinking, bowling? yay!, instead of jumping off skyscrapers then pull off a James Bond entrance and shoot up the place, we'll give them bowling!!!!!. EXCITING!, really I am, I'm really EXCITED and ENTICED by this game called BOWLING!!!.

It was just to be funny. The same way some Battlefield: Bad Company trailers made fun of Rainbow Six and Metal Gear.

It's not like the people making the Naruto game for the PS3 insulting the people making a Naruto game at Ubisoft. Or the people making some war game insulting Gearbox for Brothers in Arms.

Any press is good press they say.GodModeEnabled

Ditto, I mentioned like a year ago that if I were Volition I would definitely release a bunch of trailers comparing my game to GTA, it is the best way to generate publicity and maybe even game sales...Smart move on their part.

The trailer you are talking about is rather old. I also don't know why you have lost respect for THQ/Volition just because they were taking pot shots at Rockstar and if anything, it's about time someone was taking pot shots at Rockstar as Rockstar was doing it to other games and movies like Driver, True Crime, I can't remember all the references but there's tons. Also, GTA4 was such a let down for me.

Also, that video is pretty much true tho. The activities in GTA4 are boring, repetitive and flatout lame IMO. I still can't digest the **** of GTA4 and I had the game since release. I mean, what was Rockstar thinking, bowling? yay!, instead of jumping off skyscrapers then pull off a James Bond entrance and shoot up the place, we'll give them bowling!!!!!. EXCITING!, really I am, I'm really EXCITED and ENTICED by this game called BOWLING!!!.

ForsbergFan21

The mission variety is GTAIV was definitely a step down from that of San Andreas, and I may also have to admit that I had a bit more fun with the latter mentioned game, but GTAIV provided the overall best experience. GTAIV carries more of a serious tone than any other game in the series, and therefore to stay in line with their theme they had to make everything more streamlined. I really wish they would have included more mission variety, maybe by way of throwing in some stealth missions and exciting time limited life or death situations, but if Rockstar were to have thrown in some of the same things that were in San Andreasi the overall experience of the game may have been diminished. The plot, the immersion, and the character development all were vastly improved in GTAIV, and I'm not sure I'd be able to sacrifice that for some of the cheap thrills I got in San Andreas. I really just wish there were more consequences for your actions in GTAIV, every developer seems to be promising this nowadays, but very few ever deliver.

[QUOTE="ForsbergFan21"]

The trailer you are talking about is rather old. I also don't know why you have lost respect for THQ/Volition just because they were taking pot shots at Rockstar and if anything, it's about time someone was taking pot shots at Rockstar as Rockstar was doing it to other games and movies like Driver, True Crime, I can't remember all the references but there's tons. Also, GTA4 was such a let down for me.

Also, that video is pretty much true tho. The activities in GTA4 are boring, repetitive and flatout lame IMO. I still can't digest the **** of GTA4 and I had the game since release. I mean, what was Rockstar thinking, bowling? yay!, instead of jumping off skyscrapers then pull off a James Bond entrance and shoot up the place, we'll give them bowling!!!!!. EXCITING!, really I am, I'm really EXCITED and ENTICED by this game called BOWLING!!!.

HiResDes

The mission variety is GTAIV was definitely a step down from that of San Andreas, and I may also have to admit that I had a bit more fun with the latter mentioned game, but GTAIV provided the overall best experience. GTAIV carries more of a serious tone than any other game in the series, and therefore to stay in line with their theme they had to make everything more streamlined. I really wish they would have included more mission variety, maybe by way of throwing in some stealth missions and exciting time limited life or death situations, but if Rockstar were to have thrown in some of the same things that were in San Andreasi the overall experience of the game may have been diminished. The plot, the immersion, and the character development all were vastly improved in GTAIV, and I'm not sure I'd be able to sacrifice that for some of the cheap thrills I got in San Andreas. I really just wish there were more consequences for your actions in GTAIV, every developer seems to be promising this nowadays, but very few ever deliver.

Besides a whole crapload of missing content, I was actually more disappointed with the character development, plot, dialogue and the lack of humor in GTA4 compared to GTA:SA. I couldn't stand Nikos miserable and negative attitude towards everything. I don't want to get into spoilers here but I just want to say that other characters could've stuck around for a lot longer if you know what I mean.

Just remember all the awesome characters in GTA:SA.

Miko Toreno (voiced by James Woods and arguably the best GTA character ever), Cesar, Officer Tenpenny, Woozie, Officer Pulaski, Ryder, OG Loc, The Truth, Catalina etc. A lot of people forget the awesome cast in GTA:SA and say GTA4 is far better but I disagree.

I don't mind if Rockstar is taking GTA into a new direction with realism on the mind but if they do, bring on a awesome cast which GTA4 was lacking IMO but they may be because of the terrible writing and script IMO.

I'm not trying to hate on GTA4 but it's so hard to see the game go 2 steps forward in the gameplay area but 10 steps backwards in character developement, dialogue and humor.

[QUOTE="HiResDes"][QUOTE="ForsbergFan21"]

The trailer you are talking about is rather old. I also don't know why you have lost respect for THQ/Volition just because they were taking pot shots at Rockstar and if anything, it's about time someone was taking pot shots at Rockstar as Rockstar was doing it to other games and movies like Driver, True Crime, I can't remember all the references but there's tons. Also, GTA4 was such a let down for me.

Also, that video is pretty much true tho. The activities in GTA4 are boring, repetitive and flatout lame IMO. I still can't digest the **** of GTA4 and I had the game since release. I mean, what was Rockstar thinking, bowling? yay!, instead of jumping off skyscrapers then pull off a James Bond entrance and shoot up the place, we'll give them bowling!!!!!. EXCITING!, really I am, I'm really EXCITED and ENTICED by this game called BOWLING!!!.

ForsbergFan21

The mission variety is GTAIV was definitely a step down from that of San Andreas, and I may also have to admit that I had a bit more fun with the latter mentioned game, but GTAIV provided the overall best experience. GTAIV carries more of a serious tone than any other game in the series, and therefore to stay in line with their theme they had to make everything more streamlined. I really wish they would have included more mission variety, maybe by way of throwing in some stealth missions and exciting time limited life or death situations, but if Rockstar were to have thrown in some of the same things that were in San Andreasi the overall experience of the game may have been diminished. The plot, the immersion, and the character development all were vastly improved in GTAIV, and I'm not sure I'd be able to sacrifice that for some of the cheap thrills I got in San Andreas. I really just wish there were more consequences for your actions in GTAIV, every developer seems to be promising this nowadays, but very few ever deliver.

Besides a whole crapload of missing content, I was actually more disappointed with the character development, plot, dialogue and the lack of humor in GTA4 compared to GTA:SA. I couldn't stand Nikos miserable and negative attitude towards everything. I don't want to get into spoilers here but I just want to say that other characters could've stuck around for a lot longer if you know what I mean.

Just remember all the awesome characters in GTA:SA.

Miko Toreno (voiced by James Woods and arguably the best GTA character ever), Cesar, Officer Tenpenny, Woozie, Officer Pulaski, Ryder, OG Loc, The Truth, Catalina etc. A lot of people forget the awesome cast in GTA:SA and say GTA4 is far better but I disagree.

I don't mind if Rockstar is taking GTA into a new direction with realism on the mind but if they do, bring on a awesome cast which GTA4 was lacking IMO but they may be because of the terrible writing and script IMO.

I'm not trying to hate on GTA4 but it's so hard to see the game go 2 steps forward in the gameplay area but 10 steps backwards in character developement, dialogue and humor.

I think that GTA: San Andreas and Vice City had the funnier set of characters, and maybe even had better side characters, but I truly feel like the main character (Niko) is the most developed out of any other in the series. BTW Toreno was awesome, as was the Truth, but none can compare to the awesomeness that was Lance Vance. Oh yeah Fedorov > Forsberg too:P

The trailer you are talking about is rather old. I also don't know why you have lost respect for THQ/Volition just because they were taking pot shots at Rockstar and if anything, it's about time someone was taking pot shots at Rockstar as Rockstar was doing it to other games and movies like Driver, True Crime, I can't remember all the references but there's tons. Also, GTA4 was such a let down for me.

ForsbergFan21

I guess when Rockstar was doing it, I didn't mind because it was witty and more of an easter egg. you had to think back and maybe you'd realize that the names are the same as the protagonists in other games.

If there was a character that looked like Niko that you had to kill in Saint's Row II, I would think that that is a funny jab at the series. Saying "we have more of this than you do" isn't amusing at all.

Let's say Halo had a trailer that showed that Halo 3 has more vehicles than Half-Life 2... would that be funny?

Saint's Row 2 is a Grand Theft Auto clone.

The producers of the comercial want to remind you of that by comparing their game directly to the one they're emulating. They want to show the casual consumer that a game called "Saint's Row" is a game like Grand Theft Auto because it might not be immediately apparent from the title.

[QUOTE="ForsbergFan21"]

The trailer you are talking about is rather old. I also don't know why you have lost respect for THQ/Volition just because they were taking pot shots at Rockstar and if anything, it's about time someone was taking pot shots at Rockstar as Rockstar was doing it to other games and movies like Driver, True Crime, I can't remember all the references but there's tons. Also, GTA4 was such a let down for me.

smerlus

I guess when Rockstar was doing it, I didn't mind because it was witty and more of an easter egg. you had to think back and maybe you'd realize that the names are the same as the protagonists in other games.

If there was a character that looked like Niko that you had to kill in Saint's Row II, I would think that that is a funny jab at the series. Saying "we have more of this than you do" isn't amusing at all.

Let's say Halo had a trailer that showed that Halo 3 has more vehicles than Half-Life 2... would that be funny?

I thought it was pretty funny. I didn't realize how stupid activites like "going to the cabaret" sounded until they had put it that way.

I found the commercials to be very entertaining. And I stand by my opinion that the commercials spark some much-needed retribution against R*. GTA4 broke records because all the fans raced out to buy it, only to find out what a steaming pile of crap it was. With it's one-dimensional characters who were drawn and animated very well and a huge immersive and highly detailed city with very little to do besides story missions and stupid side activites. GTA4 was a giant disappointment and Saints Row 2 will provide the long hours of fun and excitement that GTA4 failed to deliver.

The Saints Row 2 trailers reminded me of the awful first one and made sure I would never try Saints Row 2Toriko42

Without citing any reasons why you feel that way, your opinion sounds very biased or closed-minded. Regardless, play whatever kind of games you like, while we will be laughing our butts off and enjoying all that Saints Row 2 has to offer.

I found the commercials to be very entertaining. And I stand by my opinion that the commercials spark some much-needed retribution against R*. GTA4 broke records because all the fans raced out to buy it, only to find out what a steaming pile of crap it was. With it's one-dimensional characters who were drawn and animated very well and a huge immersive and highly detailed city with very little to do besides story missions and stupid side activites. GTA4 was a giant disappointment and Saints Row 2 will provide the long hours of fun and excitement that GTA4 failed to deliver.

EnigManic

So its a steaming pile of crap, yet it is animated very well, and has a huge immersive and highly detailed city...I remember you now from your SR vs. GTA arguments, and while Smerlus was bringing up very legimitate points you resorted to these outlandish nonsensical tirades showing just much hatorade you must have drunk to make you pissed off at Rockstar's critical and financial success with the series. You can hate on GTAIV all you want, but to say that there should be some retribution against Rockstar is unforgivable in my eyes, and maybe even slightly pathetic. Even if Niko is one dimensional, he is still is one of the more interesting characters I've ever seen in a videogame, and I don't think being a static character makes him any less significant than those that are complex. If you've ever seen a mafia movie or pretty much most dramas, there are always static characters, if everyone is complex than that would be come unrealistic and redundant. Heath Ledger's Joker is pretty much a static character, and he is going to win a boatload of awards for playing such a role.

Do want you must with me mods, I just had to get that off my chest.

There are many valid points in this thread, But let me ask a hypothetical question:

Which game is better, Halo 2 or Resident Evil 4?

Pretty complex, huh? Both games achieved greatness in certain aspects. So to rate one better than the other simply comes down to your personal preference of what kind of features are important to you. Likewise, "GTA4 vs SR2" depends on whether you prefer graphics or content. But to blindly call one rubbish is closed-minded and unfair.

Furthermore, we're running around in circles over the clone argument. SARCASM ALERT! Yes, Saints Row is derivitive and entirely unoriginal because it involves gangsters. Thanks for the clarification. By the same logic, I suppose Baldur's Gate is a blatant clone of Diablo. Thanks for setting that straight.

Furthermore, for those of you citing "lack of innovation" on Volition's part.. If SR is such a ripoff, why did GTA4 borrow ideas from SR, like automatic navigation routes, customizable map waypoints and the use of a cell phone to store data and summon homies? Seems unfair when the shoe's on the other foot, huh?

EnigManic

Resident Evil 4 is much less like Halo 2, than San Andreas is to Saints Row ...Even reviewers recognized how similar the two were, and how mainly derivative the original SR was, not that that means that it didn't offer any improvements over SA or that the original SR was a horrible game...No one is saying that, nor did the anyone argue that the two are similar merely because they include gangsters, you are resorting to putting words in the mouths of people that have presented better and more well rounded arguments...That is juvenile.

[QUOTE="EnigManic"]

I found the commercials to be very entertaining. And I stand by my opinion that the commercials spark some much-needed retribution against R*. GTA4 broke records because all the fans raced out to buy it, only to find out what a steaming pile of crap it was. With it's one-dimensional characters who were drawn and animated very well and a huge immersive and highly detailed city with very little to do besides story missions and stupid side activites. GTA4 was a giant disappointment and Saints Row 2 will provide the long hours of fun and excitement that GTA4 failed to deliver.

HiResDes

So its a steaming pile of crap, yet it is animated very well, and has a huge immersive and highly detailed city...I remember you now from your SR vs. GTA arguments, and while Smerlus was bringing up very legimitate points you resorted to these outlandish nonsensical tirades showing just much hatorade you must have drunk to make you pissed off at Rockstar's critical and financial success with the series. You can hate on GTAIV all you want, but to say that there should be some retribution against Rockstar is unforgivable in my eyes, and maybe even slightly pathetic. Even if Niko is one dimensional, he is still is one of the more interesting characters I've ever seen in a videogame, and I don't think being a static character makes him any less significant than those that are complex. If you've ever seen a mafia movie or pretty much most dramas, there are always static characters, if everyone is complex than that would be come unrealistic and redundant. Heath Ledger's Joker is pretty much a static character, and he is going to win a boatload of awards for playing such a role.

Do want you must with me mods, I just had to get that off my chest.

First of all, I wrote how I did to be fair. Notice, I mentioned GTA4's good points as well as its flaws. Second, regarding your comments about Nico (again), how interesting do you really think he is? He's a petty criminal with no desires or ambitions besides money and he's unattractive and uncharismatic. Furthermore, I've explained my position quite clearly, yet you accuse me of simply trash talking or "hating". It sounds to me like you're still trying to 1-up me from the old GTA4 vs SR threads, and that didn't work well in your favor, so maybe you should give it a rest already and stop trolling threads.

...so maybe you should give it a rest already and stop trolling threads. EnigManic

I will lock this thread if you or anyone else tries to perpetuate this sort of discussion further, as the thread is mainly focused purely on the conduct of developers doing what can be percieved as 'mud-slinging' of sorts in ads and such, and given past discussions on GTA4 vs. SR2, I would prefer that it stayed in that realm, thanks.

HiResDes

[QUOTE="Toriko42"]The Saints Row 2 trailers reminded me of the awful first one and made sure I would never try Saints Row 2EnigManic

Without citing any reasons why you feel that way, your opinion sounds very biased or closed-minded. Regardless, play whatever kind of games you like, while we will be laughing our butts off and enjoying all that Saints Row 2 has to offer.

It's not like the commercial came out and talked trash about GTA4. All they did was mention going to the cabaret and bowling, which wouldn't be immediately apparent as GTA4 references unless you had actually played GTA4. Even then it's likely to escape a few minds.

I thought it was pretty funny. I didn't realize how stupid activites like "going to the cabaret" sounded until they had put it that way.

Mash_Affect

Those are good points. I agree, their approach was subtle, and I did find the commercials very amusing. The ones with Gary Busey were hilarious. I especially like the one where he says, "People don't like being shot in the face!" I laughed hysterically at that one.

I found the commercials to be very entertaining. And I stand by my opinion that the commercials spark some much-needed retribution against R*. GTA4 broke records because all the fans raced out to buy it, only to find out what a steaming pile of crap it was. With it's one-dimensional characters who were drawn and animated very well and a huge immersive and highly detailed city with very little to do besides story missions and stupid side activites. GTA4 was a giant disappointment and Saints Row 2 will provide the long hours of fun and excitement that GTA4 failed to deliver.

EnigManic

GTA got 10s from virtually every website/mags ...... thats 10 out 10. Even those who thought it shouldnt have got those "perfect" scores, think that it's a damn good game. Calling a game with a critical reception like that a 'steaming pile of crap' is not a bright idea.)

You thought GTA4 was a disappointment and that it failed to deliver long hours of fun and excitement, yet you also said you thought the side activities were stupid. I'll tell you what I thought of the side activities in all the GTA games, I dont care for them. I play GTA games for the story, and I for one actually commend Rockstar for making the story a bit more realistic. i commend them for changing up the series formula and taking some chances. It's been seven years since the first GTA game (GTA III) and it sucks, but I've grown up since then. I cannot keep playing these childish stories about a small town pot dealer becoming the king of the mafia, it makes me gag. But then again, thats just my opinion. it doesn't make GTA the game with the greatest story ever, or the steaming pile of crap like you so eloquently put it. Rockstar took a chance and challenged their fanbase, fans like you obviously didnt like the direction they choose, but fans like me were more than fine with it and 'understand' that now that they have the "next-gen" engine up and running, they can concentrate solely on content for the sequel, just like they did last gen with Vice City and SA being major improvements over their predecessors.

Saints Row 2 on the other hand seems content with being the same old gta spin-off, and the series fans like you are obviously happy with it, but for non-fans like me, the question is simple; why would I play a GTA styIe game that's not a GTA game?

They can make fun of GTA all they want, but their marketing isnt working on people like me...... as you can probably tell from numerous other posters in this thread.

You're entitled to your opinion. But let's not stray from the subject of game's marketing. GTA4 broke sales records, not because everyone liked R*'s "new direction" as you put it (which seems more like sheer laziness mixed with the arrogant knowledge that their loyal fans will buy it no matter what), but because everyone expected a next-gen GTA game. You and the other GTA fans can defend it all you want, nothing changes the fact that it was a big disappointment, mainly for it's uber lack of content. It is this flaw that Volition poked fun at in their commercials, not the GTA franchise in general, so those that say otherwise are overly generalizing.

I plan to race to the store to buy Saints Row 2 when it comes out. Why? Because it offers tons of content, loads of customization (which most video games should offer anyway), a strong story (revenge never gets old) and (potentially) great online gameplay.

You and the other GTA fans can defend it all you want, nothing changes the fact that it was a big disappointment, mainly for it's uber lack of content. It is this flaw that Volition poked fun at in their commercials, not the GTA franchise in general, so those that say otherwise are overly generalizing.EnigManic

Those who defend it are speaking for themselves as gamers, and the only other people they seem to talk on behalf of regarding the game's quality are critics who publically shared their feelings on the game.. You are generalizing about what the general public felt about the game without really anything to substantiate what those feelings were. GTA4 was a big disappointment for you, but then again, you were already looking at the game in a negative light even before you bought it, which you seemed to do so moreso to spite fans than anything else.