Should reviewers review games with a political or social agenda?

Is it appropriate for a reviewer to let a political or social agenda creep into their reviews? Let's use Petit's review as an example. So we all know that Grand Theft Auto is a series known for its satire and making fun of *everyone*. The pop-culture view on women is satirized in this game, yet Petit found it to be a direct attack on the image of women. It almost strikes me that Petit think he should be offended FOR the women and give it a lower score accordingly. This displays a social agenda - a public statement against a social issue that most people feel isn't even relevant to the game, and the need to curb it through review-scores.

So what do you think? Is this misplaced or is it really important to care about how demographics are represented in videogames, satire or not? Should some things, like mistreating women, simply not be joked about anymore?

If I didn't know any better I'd say Carolyn put those points in her review simply to watch the assmadness explode.

Even if she didn't, it's mission accomplished.

Im so so so happy that Kevin VanOrd (he is the head executive of the reviewer) let Carolyn review this game, just so I can kick my feet up and watch the world burn with butt-hurt GTA fanboys.

Im so so so happy that Kevin VanOrd (he is the head executive of the reviewer) let Carolyn review this game, just so I can kick my feet up and watch the world burn with butt-hurt GTA fanboys.

Diablo-B

Every other form of media can and does, as I understand it. I don't see why games should be held to a different standard.

Every other form of media can and does, as I understand it. I don't see why games should be held to a different standard.

c_rake

i would say the same thing if it was a movie, music or a book. Leave your issues at the door and do the review out of gameplay, story, audio and if it overall plays well. Do a blog, make an article about it or something. The reviews itself should not be political or religious in any way. Especially when the game isn't suppose to be political correct and is basicly a satire and parody The_Last_Ride

But satire is made for such criticism. The whole reason it exists is to use humor as a means of calling out the wrongs and strange things of society. It's meant to be social commentary disguised as mere parody. Everything I've heard about Grand Theft Auto seems to fit that bill perfectly. I don't see why reviewers shouldn't be able to explore and extrapolate meaning from such works. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the form's existence.

Besides, different perspectives lead to more interesting articles. And that's always welcome.

I am a gameplay first, second, and third kind of guy. Story is nice but not the most important thing. I want the reviews to reflect that. I do not like reviews that spend over half the time talking about how the story made them feel. Explain to me how the game plays, how good is the level design, the pacing and everything that goes along with enjoying the gameplay. Any type of personal political or social agenda is just useless information for me in a review. If they want to discuss it in a editorial by all means do so. But in a review I do not need that info.

dvader654

This. 

Video games are just toys, so I hate reading these overzealous and pompous analyses of them. All I want from a review is to tell me how the gameplay handles, and if the game as a whole is any fun.

Video games are just toys, so I hate reading these overzealous and pompous analyses of them.

Renegade_Fury

But don't some games bring this on themselves when they act like they're pieces of art and more than toys?

Every other form of media can and does, as I understand it. I don't see why games should be held to a different standard.

c_rake

[QUOTE="Renegade_Fury"]

Video games are just toys, so I hate reading these overzealous and pompous analyses of them.

JML897

But don't some games bring this on themselves when they act like they're pieces of art and more than toys?

And they should be docked for doing so if they're using that as a shield to compensate for bad gameplay design. When I read about a game, I want to know first and foremost how it handles on the "game side" of things, and I rather see all reviews take that sort of approach. I really don't care at all how the developer wants me to feel, or how the reviewer perceives that same toy as conveying some sort of political or social message.

BTW, I'm talking in general, and not specifically at the GTA review since I haven't even watched it yet.

No because enjoying video games is escapism and should not involve real-world politics. You don't hear criticisms about racism in "To Kill a Mockingbird" or complaints about gore in a horror film, so why attack GTA V for being misogynistic? That's just ridiculously stupid on a first-world problems level.

This thread is totally necessaryJML897

The interesting thing is that before the review went up, the idea already crossed my mind that Petit is going to emphasize and misrepresent aspects of the game because GTA 5 is a game meant to be a little offensive towards everyone (women included), and the score would be lowered as a result. Except when I was imagining this, I had Petit imagined as a predictable feminist cartoon character incapable of keeping her personal viewpoints from slipping into the review, and not an actual person. Petit is developing quite the stereotype for herself.

If you don't find the review process to be all that important, then this thread isn't for you. I enjoy all forms of reviews (music, games, movies, just about anything) and spend a lot of my time reading and writing them. I really enjoy it when they're written with a degree of professionalism. Since this website hires professional reviewers, I don't think it's unfair to expect a certain level of professionalism in the content featured on this set. Reviews are supposed to be about the quality of the gameplay content, and not as much about the reviewer's personal opinions on the game's sense of humor.

The problem with any attempt at humour or satire is that it can backfire or hit the wrong note. Maybe GTAV does it well, maybe it lays it on a little too thick. Maybe the social commentary just doesn't get through.

These days games aren't just about the action - the plot is a critical component of the game. And even if you disregard the misogyny criticism, I would also knock a game down for having characters that lack consistency in their actions.

It got a 9.0, get over it. Not the second coming of Jesus but it's a fantastic score. She thought that characteristic was bad and said so in her review - it's possible that other people who have similar views about women might get offended should they play GTA V. A review can never have too much information.

Think of it this way: if that particular trait isn't something bad in your view, disregard it. If it is, it's another point to weigh in on whether you buy the game or not.

The problem with any attempt at humour or satire is that it can backfire or hit the wrong note. Maybe GTAV does it well, maybe it lays it on a little too thick. Maybe the social commentary just doesn't get through.

These days games aren't just about the action - the plot is a critical component of the game. And even if you disregard the misogyny criticism, I would also knock a game down for having characters that lack consistency in their actions.

LordRork

[QUOTE="JML897"]This thread is totally necessaryKHAndAnime

The interesting thing is that before the review went up, the idea already crossed my mind that Petit is going to emphasize and misrepresent aspects of the game because GTA 5 is a game meant to be a little offensive towards everyone (women included), and the score would be lowered as a result. Except when I was imagining this, I had Petit imagined as a predictable feminist cartoon character incapable of keeping her personal viewpoints from slipping into the review, and not an actual person. Petit is developing quite the stereotype for herself.

If you don't find the review process to be all that important, then this thread isn't for you. I enjoy all forms of reviews (music, games, movies, just about anything) and spend a lot of my time reading and writing them. I really enjoy it when they're written with a degree of professionalism. Since this website hires professional reviewers, I don't think it's unfair to expect a certain level of professionalism in the content featured on this set. Reviews are supposed to be about the quality of the gameplay content, and not as much about the reviewer's personal opinions on the game's sense of humor.

Saying that regarding misogyny as bad is bias is the same as saying that regarding racism as bad is bias. It's not something up for debate anymore. The humor, whether you like it or not, is a huge part of a game like GTA V - and if it's bad humor, it should be criticized.

 

 

Saying that regarding misogyny as bad is bias is the same as saying that regarding racism as bad is bias. It's not something up for debate anymore. The humor, whether you like it or not, is a huge part of a game like GTA V - and if it's bad humor, it should be criticized.

iHarlequin

[QUOTE="iHarlequin"]

 

 

Saying that regarding misogyny as bad is bias is the same as saying that regarding racism as bad is bias. It's not something up for debate anymore. The humor, whether you like it or not, is a huge part of a game like GTA V - and if it's bad humor, it should be criticized.

Bigboi500

Why? Because bad humor is bad entertainment.

[QUOTE="KHAndAnime"]

[QUOTE="JML897"]This thread is totally necessaryiHarlequin

The interesting thing is that before the review went up, the idea already crossed my mind that Petit is going to emphasize and misrepresent aspects of the game because GTA 5 is a game meant to be a little offensive towards everyone (women included), and the score would be lowered as a result. Except when I was imagining this, I had Petit imagined as a predictable feminist cartoon character incapable of keeping her personal viewpoints from slipping into the review, and not an actual person. Petit is developing quite the stereotype for herself.

If you don't find the review process to be all that important, then this thread isn't for you. I enjoy all forms of reviews (music, games, movies, just about anything) and spend a lot of my time reading and writing them. I really enjoy it when they're written with a degree of professionalism. Since this website hires professional reviewers, I don't think it's unfair to expect a certain level of professionalism in the content featured on this set. Reviews are supposed to be about the quality of the gameplay content, and not as much about the reviewer's personal opinions on the game's sense of humor.

Saying that regarding misogyny as bad is bias is the same as saying that regarding racism as bad is bias. It's not something up for debate anymore. The humor, whether you like it or not, is a huge part of a game like GTA V - and if it's bad humor, it should be criticized.

That sort of commentary should be trivialized compared to important aspects of the game, not emphasized. Why not reserve it for an editorial or something? Petit pretends like she's the only one capable of detecting misplaced misogyny in games and has to be the one to point it out if there's any whatsoever. How many other reviewers downgraded the game for misogyny? I'm really curious.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="iHarlequin"]

 

 

Saying that regarding misogyny as bad is bias is the same as saying that regarding racism as bad is bias. It's not something up for debate anymore. The humor, whether you like it or not, is a huge part of a game like GTA V - and if it's bad humor, it should be criticized.

iHarlequin

Why? Because bad humor is bad entertainment.

[QUOTE="iHarlequin"]

[QUOTE="KHAndAnime"] If this site's reviews are going to become biased in a way that everyone can see, it's fair to say it warrants at least a LITTLE discussion, no? I've been coming to this site for over a decade because I respect the reviews that are put up and respect the opinions of the people writing them.

The interesting thing is that before the review went up, the idea already crossed my mind that Petit is going to emphasize and misrepresent aspects of the game because GTA 5 is a game meant to be a little offensive towards everyone (women included), and the score would be lowered as a result. Except when I was imagining this, I had Petit imagined as a predictable feminist cartoon character incapable of keeping her personal viewpoints from slipping into the review, and not an actual person. Petit is developing quite the stereotype for herself.

If you don't find the review process to be all that important, then this thread isn't for you. I enjoy all forms of reviews (music, games, movies, just about anything) and spend a lot of my time reading and writing them. I really enjoy it when they're written with a degree of professionalism. Since this website hires professional reviewers, I don't think it's unfair to expect a certain level of professionalism in the content featured on this set. Reviews are supposed to be about the quality of the gameplay content, and not as much about the reviewer's personal opinions on the game's sense of humor.

KHAndAnime

Saying that regarding misogyny as bad is bias is the same as saying that regarding racism as bad is bias. It's not something up for debate anymore. The humor, whether you like it or not, is a huge part of a game like GTA V - and if it's bad humor, it should be criticized.

That sort of commentary should be trivialized compared to important aspects of the game, not emphasized. Why not reserve it for an editorial or something? Petit pretends like she's the only one capable of detecting misplaced misogyny in games and has to be the one to point it out if there's any whatsoever. How many other reviewers downgraded the game for misogyny? I'm really curious.

Uhm, ok. Yes, blue is different than red. You don't need to tell me that. Who are you to judge whether the misogyny in something isn't relevant to anyone else just because it isn't relevant to you and a group of other posters here? You do not need to be a comedian or a 'gender analyst' to have the necessary comprehension of the issues that can be brought with humor: appealing to the mockery of the 'victim' (minorities, ethnic groups, religions, etc.) is widely regarded as poor-quality humor.

All she did was point out the misogyny. "Petit pretends like she's the only one capable of detecting misplaced misogyny in games and has to be the one to point it out if there's any whatsoever" - you're basically saying that reviewers need to criticize only the issues other people -wouldn't- notice? That makes no sense. That's like complaining that a reviewer brought up the issue of a game's graphics, because it's so obvious to you that the graphics are bad. Her pointing out an extra flaw in comparison to other reviewers is a good thing, not a bad one - or would you rather pour through fifty+ reviews with the same content?

[QUOTE="iHarlequin"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Why? It's entertainment, not material for an institute of higher learning.

Bigboi500

Why? Because bad humor is bad entertainment.

:lol: I won't even reply to that. Pulp Fiction is great, Hannibal (you didn't get it right) - at least the movie, I haven't seen the series - was also great (Silence of the Lambs specially). Wasn't a big fan of Saw, but to each their own. The JOB of a reviewer, be it of games or movies, IS to decide whether that piece of entertainment is bad. Or do you think a movie critic writes only about the camera, acting and technical aspects? The humor, the plot, the story - albeit less relevant in a game - are still important.

[QUOTE="KHAndAnime"]

[QUOTE="iHarlequin"]

 

Saying that regarding misogyny as bad is bias is the same as saying that regarding racism as bad is bias. It's not something up for debate anymore. The humor, whether you like it or not, is a huge part of a game like GTA V - and if it's bad humor, it should be criticized.

iHarlequin

That sort of commentary should be trivialized compared to important aspects of the game, not emphasized. Why not reserve it for an editorial or something? Petit pretends like she's the only one capable of detecting misplaced misogyny in games and has to be the one to point it out if there's any whatsoever. How many other reviewers downgraded the game for misogyny? I'm really curious.

Uhm, ok. Yes, blue is different than red. You don't need to tell me that. Who are you to judge whether the misogyny in something isn't relevant to anyone else just because it isn't relevant to you and a group of other posters here? You do not need to be a comedian or a 'gender analyst' to have the necessary comprehension of the issues that can be brought with humor: appealing to the mockery of the 'victim' (minorities, ethnic groups, religions, etc.) is widely regarded as poor-quality humor.

All she did was point out the misogyny. "Petit pretends like she's the only one capable of detecting misplaced misogyny in games and has to be the one to point it out if there's any whatsoever" - you're basically saying that reviewers need to criticize only the issues other people -wouldn't- notice? That makes no sense. That's like complaining that a reviewer brought up the issue of a game's graphics, because it's so obvious to you that the graphics are bad. Her pointing out an extra flaw in comparison to other reviewers is a good thing, not a bad one - or would you rather pour through fifty+ reviews with the same content?

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="iHarlequin"]

 

Why? Because bad humor is bad entertainment.

iHarlequin

:lol: I won't even reply to that. Pulp Fiction is great, Hannibal (you didn't get it right) - at least the movie, I haven't seen the series - was also great (Silence of the Lambs specially). Wasn't a big fan of Saw, but to each their own. The JOB of a reviewer, be it of games or movies, IS to decide whether that piece of entertainment is bad. Or do you think a movie critic writes only about the camera, acting and technical aspects? The humor, the plot, the story - albeit less relevant in a game - are still important.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="iHarlequin"]

 

Why? Because bad humor is bad entertainment.

iHarlequin

:lol: I won't even reply to that. Pulp Fiction is great, Hannibal (you didn't get it right) - at least the movie, I haven't seen the series - was also great (Silence of the Lambs specially). Wasn't a big fan of Saw, but to each their own. The JOB of a reviewer, be it of games or movies, IS to decide whether that piece of entertainment is bad. Or do you think a movie critic writes only about the camera, acting and technical aspects? The humor, the plot, the story - albeit less relevant in a game - are still important.

To further elaborate...

 "Characters constantly spout lines that glorify male sexuality while demeaning women, and the billboards and radio stations of the world reinforce this misogyny, with ads that equate manhood with sleek sports cars while encouraging women to purchase a fragrance that will make them smell like a ****. Yes, these are exaggerations of misogynistic undercurrents in our own society, but not satirical ones." - Petit

It appears Petit knows more about the intentions of the writing more than the writers themselves. :roll:

"With nothing in the narrative to underscore how insane and wrong this is, all the game does is reinforce and celebrate sexism. " - Petit

Pointing out how wrong it is within the narrative goes against the very point of satire and disassociates the irony that makes satire, SATIRE.

[QUOTE="iHarlequin"]

[QUOTE="KHAndAnime"] Misogyny, racism, and bias are all different things. Being sensitive about misogyny when it's not relevant to anybody else is biased. Furthermore, Petit isn't a comedian. What makes her an expert on what's funny or what's going over the line? Last time I checked, she's a professional videogame reviewer, not a gender analyst or comedian.

That sort of commentary should be trivialized compared to important aspects of the game, not emphasized. Why not reserve it for an editorial or something? Petit pretends like she's the only one capable of detecting misplaced misogyny in games and has to be the one to point it out if there's any whatsoever. How many other reviewers downgraded the game for misogyny? I'm really curious.

KHAndAnime

Uhm, ok. Yes, blue is different than red. You don't need to tell me that. Who are you to judge whether the misogyny in something isn't relevant to anyone else just because it isn't relevant to you and a group of other posters here? You do not need to be a comedian or a 'gender analyst' to have the necessary comprehension of the issues that can be brought with humor: appealing to the mockery of the 'victim' (minorities, ethnic groups, religions, etc.) is widely regarded as poor-quality humor.

All she did was point out the misogyny. "Petit pretends like she's the only one capable of detecting misplaced misogyny in games and has to be the one to point it out if there's any whatsoever" - you're basically saying that reviewers need to criticize only the issues other people -wouldn't- notice? That makes no sense. That's like complaining that a reviewer brought up the issue of a game's graphics, because it's so obvious to you that the graphics are bad. Her pointing out an extra flaw in comparison to other reviewers is a good thing, not a bad one - or would you rather pour through fifty+ reviews with the same content?

That is wrong in many levels. I've had this discussion time and again, but the topic was music - there is, yes, an objective set of criteria to judge something as good or bad in art. It's hard to do so with our modern/post-modern world, but still possible. That's what I'm saying - there isn't the option of thinking misogyny is good, such as there is for colors or the lack of it (you can like it either way). You can't possibly say that the hatred of someone based on their race, their gender or any specific criteria is alright, and shouldn't be criticized. A reviewer has to judge a game based on its categories - and there are plenty (some I can think of: gameplay, graphics, music, sound effects, storytelling, story, artistic design, length, etc.). She doesn't have to omit or add a category based on her reader - she's not writing to appease, she's writing to expose. That much should be obvious, and you should be glad that someone isn't writing according to your opinion - that would be awfully specific and, contrary to what you seem to think, go well against the general demographic of readers (as in, those that don't agree with you).

You also seem to think that the game would've got a perfect 10 if it weren't for -that- particular issue. I guess that explains why there's been so much backfire from it - although I'm curious as to what made you assume that that particular point knocked the game a whole 10% down the scale.

The fact is that she isn't the one who's nitpicking, but you. You're complaining about five words she included on the spotlight of her review. It reads 'profoundly misogynistic'. The worse is that you're complaining about this without even having played the game for a prolonged period. You don't even know if your complaints are valid. You're complaining because she added five words of criticism to a game you feel the need to support.

Im so so so happy that Kevin VanOrd (he is the head executive of the reviewer) let Carolyn review this game, just so I can kick my feet up and watch the world burn with butt-hurt GTA fanboys.

Diablo-B

I know. Its perfect. :lol:

To further elaborate...

 "Characters constantly spout lines that glorify male sexuality while demeaning women, and the billboards and radio stations of the world reinforce this misogyny, with ads that equate manhood with sleek sports cars while encouraging women to purchase a fragrance that will make them smell like a ****. Yes, these are exaggerations of misogynistic undercurrents in our own society, but not satirical ones." - Petit

It appears Petit knows more about the intentions of the writing more than the writers themselves. :roll:

"With nothing in the narrative to underscore how insane and wrong this is, all the game does is reinforce and celebrate sexism. " - Petit

Pointing out how wrong it is within the narrative goes against the very point of satire and disassociates the irony that makes satire, SATIRE.

KHAndAnime

[QUOTE="KHAndAnime"][QUOTE="iHarlequin"]

 

 

Uhm, ok. Yes, blue is different than red. You don't need to tell me that. Who are you to judge whether the misogyny in something isn't relevant to anyone else just because it isn't relevant to you and a group of other posters here? You do not need to be a comedian or a 'gender analyst' to have the necessary comprehension of the issues that can be brought with humor: appealing to the mockery of the 'victim' (minorities, ethnic groups, religions, etc.) is widely regarded as poor-quality humor.

 

All she did was point out the misogyny. "Petit pretends like she's the only one capable of detecting misplaced misogyny in games and has to be the one to point it out if there's any whatsoever" - you're basically saying that reviewers need to criticize only the issues other people -wouldn't- notice? That makes no sense. That's like complaining that a reviewer brought up the issue of a game's graphics, because it's so obvious to you that the graphics are bad. Her pointing out an extra flaw in comparison to other reviewers is a good thing, not a bad one - or would you rather pour through fifty+ reviews with the same content?

iHarlequin

That is wrong in many levels. I've had this discussion time and again, but the topic was music - there is, yes, an objective set of criteria to judge something as good or bad in art. It's hard to do so with our modern/post-modern world, but still possible. That's what I'm saying - there isn't the option of thinking misogyny is good, such as there is for colors or the lack of it (you can like it either way). You can't possibly say that the hatred of someone based on their race, their gender or any specific criteria is alright, and shouldn't be criticized. A reviewer has to judge a game based on its categories - and there are plenty (some I can think of: gameplay, graphics, music, sound effects, storytelling, story, artistic design, length, etc.). She doesn't have to omit or add a category based on her reader - she's not writing to appease, she's writing to expose. That much should be obvious, and you should be glad that someone isn't writing according to your opinion - that would be awfully specific and, contrary to what you seem to think, go well against the general demographic of readers (as in, those that don't agree with you).

You also seem to think that the game would've got a perfect 10 if it weren't for -that- particular issue. I guess that explains why there's been so much backfire from it - although I'm curious as to what made you assume that that particular point knocked the game a whole 10% down the scale.

The fact is that she isn't the one who's nitpicking, but you. You're complaining about five words she included on the spotlight of her review. It reads 'profoundly misogynistic'. The worse is that you're complaining about this without even having played the game for a prolonged period. You don't even know if your complaints are valid. You're complaining because she added five words of criticism to a game you feel the need to support.

All she exposed is your lack and her lack of understanding of the word "satire". I'm complaining about a full point being deducted for a lack of understanding on the reviewer's behalf.

If you don't care about standards in reviews, that's fine for you. There's still the rest of us.

[QUOTE="Diablo-B"]

Im so so so happy that Kevin VanOrd (he is the head executive of the reviewer) let Carolyn review this game, just so I can kick my feet up and watch the world burn with butt-hurt GTA fanboys.

Lucky_Krystal

I know. Its perfect. :lol:

[QUOTE="Diablo-B"]

Im so so so happy that Kevin VanOrd (he is the head executive of the reviewer) let Carolyn review this game, just so I can kick my feet up and watch the world burn with butt-hurt GTA fanboys.

Lucky_Krystal

I know. Its perfect. :lol:

I might understand it if children or sensitive people were the target audience, but they're not. Fans of the series know what these games are all about, and don't need or want to hear over-sensitive complaints and concerns about the content that they have come to expect.

NO they sjhould not.

I live in Australia and has played the game and let me tell you it is 1 million times better than GTA IV. And when I hear it getting a lower score on this website for a NON GAMEPLAY RELATED ISSUE IT MAKES ME SICK

If GTA IV is a 10/10 than V should be a 100/10

I don't care about the score the game gets. I care when reviewers try justify a game's score with reasons that are invalid. We could be arguing about any other game - it doesn't matter. If any other reviewer reviewed something satirical and didn't even understand the base concept of satire, I would be complaining about them right here. KHAndAnime

Its still always fun to see the colossal butthurt in the comments though.

Anyway, I don't 100% agree with Carolyn either. Like someone said in the official thread, GTA is pretty misanthropic. Remember when they got accused of racism with San Andreas? GTA tends to paint everyone in a cartoonish and stereotypical manner: Asians, Black People, Mexicans, women, stupid radio hosts, stupid commercials, southern folk, cops, prostitutes, everyone.

Whether its satire or not in GTA 5, I'll have to wait and see since I don't have the game yet. I find that some people try to claim satire when the piece of entertainment in question doesn't subvert its stereotypes and tropes in any way or makes any kind of social commentary. I'm not denying that GTA is satire, more like I can't remember specific examples since I never really got into IV and I played San Andreas, Vice City, and III at a young age where I didn't have any idea about satire or the world (I skipped the cutscenes to go run people over and reak havoc with cheat codes and a flame thrower instead).

So if you care to give some specific examples of satire in GTA, that'd be welcome.

That assessment might apply correctly to others, but as for myself I just think Caro goes too far with her personal agenda. I couldn't care less what score this or any other game gets, I just have a problem with this surge of political correctness that gets focused upon the video games world unnecessarily and unfairly in relation to other forms of entertainment.

I might understand it if children or sensitive people were the target audience, but they're not. Fans of the series know what these games are all about, and don't need or want to hear over-sensitive complaints and concerns about the content that they have come to expect.

Bigboi500

True, not everyone is a butthurt fanboy, I understand that. I'm just being a douche. :lol:

And as I said in my last post, I don't 100% agree with Carolyn either. But I still just don't see the big deal in her mentioning misogyny in GTA. She's allowed to say that, just as we are allowed to disagree with her. Very rarely does one review change anything anyway, I mean, Rockstar isn't going to apologize, delay the game, then change things around to make it more PC just because of one review. I don't know, am I making sense? Basically, I don't agree with her but I defend her right to say what she said.

As for your comment about games being unfairly targeted compared to other mediums, I can't say I agree either. Games are starting to be held to the same standard that movies and other forms of entertainment are now. I've seen movies and tv shows that are in a similar vein to GTA get called out for being misogynistic or racist. These discussions that are just now starting in the gaming industry have been going on with movies, tv, books, music, and such for maybe decades now. Video games have been getting targeted heavily lately because they're a young industry under a lot of scrutiny and they've got plenty of growing to do.

That being said, I agree with your point that GTA is a game made for adults and we hopefully all know what we're getting in to. And I don't think every criticism of sexism is created equal. I have seen some awful people write terrible linkbait troll articles that seem like they're more interested in mocking, shaming, and insulting people instead of actually improving the condition of women in games. Like I have read articles where they literally do not give 2 shits about women, they just want to accuse fans of certain games of being sex offenders and perverts. That's disgusting.

If you've been seeing mostly those kinds of articles, I can understand your frustration with the topic. They are infuriating.

[QUOTE="JML897"]This thread is totally necessaryKHAndAnime

The interesting thing is that before the review went up, the idea already crossed my mind that Petit is going to emphasize and misrepresent aspects of the game because GTA 5 is a game meant to be a little offensive towards everyone (women included), and the score would be lowered as a result. Except when I was imagining this, I had Petit imagined as a predictable feminist cartoon character incapable of keeping her personal viewpoints from slipping into the review, and not an actual person. Petit is developing quite the stereotype for herself.

If you don't find the review process to be all that important, then this thread isn't for you. I enjoy all forms of reviews (music, games, movies, just about anything) and spend a lot of my time reading and writing them. I really enjoy it when they're written with a degree of professionalism. Since this website hires professional reviewers, I don't think it's unfair to expect a certain level of professionalism in the content featured on this set. Reviews are supposed to be about the quality of the gameplay content, and not as much about the reviewer's personal opinions on the game's sense of humor.

Doesn't bother me. The review explains the opinion well, and I can dismiss the negatives as things that mean nothing to me. It's reviews like the Escapist one the bug me, where logical game design is critisiced when the alternative would be far worse, and how such a critiscm resulted in a relatively huge reduction in the overall score. The whole Escapist review felt like it was shoehorning an non-issue in so as to justify the score. Gamespot's review was logical, even if the issues would only be shared with an extremely small and overzealous minority.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

That assessment might apply correctly to others, but as for myself I just think Caro goes too far with her personal agenda. I couldn't care less what score this or any other game gets, I just have a problem with this surge of political correctness that gets focused upon the video games world unnecessarily and unfairly in relation to other forms of entertainment.

I might understand it if children or sensitive people were the target audience, but they're not. Fans of the series know what these games are all about, and don't need or want to hear over-sensitive complaints and concerns about the content that they have come to expect.

Lucky_Krystal

True, not everyone is a butthurt fanboy, I understand that. I'm just being a douche. :lol:

And as I said in my last post, I don't 100% agree with Carolyn either. But I still just don't see the big deal in her mentioning misogyny in GTA. She's allowed to say that, just as we are allowed to disagree with her. Very rarely does one review change anything anyway, I mean, Rockstar isn't going to apologize, delay the game, then change things around to make it more PC just because of one review. I don't know, am I making sense? Basically, I don't agree with her but I defend her right to say what she said.

As for your comment about games being unfairly targeted compared to other mediums, I can't say I agree either. Games are starting to be held to the same standard that movies and other forms of entertainment are now. I've seen movies and tv shows that are in a similar vein to GTA get called out for being misogynistic or racist. These discussions that are just now starting in the gaming industry have been going on with movies, tv, books, music, and such for maybe decades now. Video games have been getting targeted heavily lately because they're a young industry under a lot of scrutiny and they've got plenty of growing to do.

That being said, I agree with your point that GTA is a game made for adults and we hopefully all know what we're getting in to. And I don't think every criticism of sexism is created equal. I have seen some awful people write terrible linkbait troll articles that seem like they're more interested in mocking, shaming, and insulting people instead of actually improving the condition of women in games. Like I have read articles where they literally do not give 2 shits about women, they just want to accuse fans of certain games of being sex offenders and perverts. That's disgusting.

If you've been seeing mostly those kinds of articles, I can understand your frustration with the topic. They are infuriating.

You're also right that she has a right to say what she wants to say, be it right or wrong or somewhere in between. I just personally disagree with her idealistic view of the world when we have so many other larger problems around the globe to deal with that are more important than always being polite and respectful to women, when men also have to deal with disrespect and are not always treated fairly either. I mean I didn't read her complaining about Trever being depicted as a dumb hillbilly, or Franklin being portrayed as a typical gangsta lowlife.

I've read other reviews from her that spotlight petty sexist insults that seemingly dock points off the score of games for doing so. That kind of thinking in regards to video games just seems ridiculous and quaint to me.

Absolutely not. Politics needs to stay out of game reviews.

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

That assessment might apply correctly to others, but as for myself I just think Caro goes too far with her personal agenda. I couldn't care less what score this or any other game gets, I just have a problem with this surge of political correctness that gets focused upon the video games world unnecessarily and unfairly in relation to other forms of entertainment.

I might understand it if children or sensitive people were the target audience, but they're not. Fans of the series know what these games are all about, and don't need or want to hear over-sensitive complaints and concerns about the content that they have come to expect.

Lucky_Krystal

True, not everyone is a butthurt fanboy, I understand that. I'm just being a douche. :lol:

And as I said in my last post, I don't 100% agree with Carolyn either. But I still just don't see the big deal in her mentioning misogyny in GTA. She's allowed to say that, just as we are allowed to disagree with her. Very rarely does one review change anything anyway, I mean, Rockstar isn't going to apologize, delay the game, then change things around to make it more PC just because of one review. I don't know, am I making sense? Basically, I don't agree with her but I defend her right to say what she said.

As for your comment about games being unfairly targeted compared to other mediums, I can't say I agree either. Games are starting to be held to the same standard that movies and other forms of entertainment are now. I've seen movies and tv shows that are in a similar vein to GTA get called out for being misogynistic or racist. These discussions that are just now starting in the gaming industry have been going on with movies, tv, books, music, and such for maybe decades now. Video games have been getting targeted heavily lately because they're a young industry under a lot of scrutiny and they've got plenty of growing to do.

That being said, I agree with your point that GTA is a game made for adults and we hopefully all know what we're getting in to. And I don't think every criticism of sexism is created equal. I have seen some awful people write terrible linkbait troll articles that seem like they're more interested in mocking, shaming, and insulting people instead of actually improving the condition of women in games. Like I have read articles where they literally do not give 2 shits about women, they just want to accuse fans of certain games of being sex offenders and perverts. That's disgusting.

If you've been seeing mostly those kinds of articles, I can understand your frustration with the topic. They are infuriating.

It really isn't a huge deal. Huge deal stuff is typically always black and white. This is a smaller situation that is nothing really but shades of grey - so it makes for an interesting debate, you know?

I like to debate just to debate, even if it's not my personal opinion. I don't think Petit should be fired, or even reprimanded. I just think she should keep an eye on what she's writing. This is the second review in the last month that have people angry at Petit. The last game she reviewed, Gone Home, received a higher score than GTA 5 (9.5), and has a user score of 6.4. That's a huge contrast in opinion from critics to users. Many people bought the game based on the review and found it to be extremely short, the storyline to be epicly hoakey, and generally disappointing. She's not the only one critic to give the game a high score, so I'm not going to put any blame towards her.

It's almost a win-win for her because she gets to write whatever she wants, and she will get defended by random people, and then her and Gamespot will get more publicity as a result. It's just distasteful. To refer to GTA 5, a game series that has always been rooted in satire, with the hyperbolic phrase 'profoundly misogynistic' - displays an important lack of understanding of the very game series she's reviewing. And I think that's why people have gone as far as to petition her removal.

Is it appropriate for a reviewer to let a political or social agenda creep into their reviews? Let's use Petit's review as an example. So we all know that Grand Theft Auto is a series known for its satire and making fun of *everyone*. The pop-culture view on women is satirized in this game, yet Petit found it to be a direct attack on the image of women. It almost strikes me that Petit think he should be offended FOR the women and give it a lower score accordingly. This displays a social agenda - a public statement against a social issue that most people feel isn't even relevant to the game, and the need to curb it through review-scores.

 So what do you think? Is this misplaced or is it really important to care about how demographics are represented in videogames, satire or not? Should some things, like mistreating women, simply not be joked about anymore?

KHAndAnime

I think when people have extreme or goes for the most political correct view, they should leave that at the door before reviewing any game that deals with issues that will either confirm or go against the reviewers personal beliefs. Especially when those people are getting paid for their opinions. 

Its impossible to write a "opinion" about a game 100% objective but its not impossible to be intelligent enough to remove yourself from some of your more extreme personal views.

Like with Carolyn and GTA, i dont care what score she gave it, but when the argument is 100% personal and the critic is something that is a core element in the game and always have been, its clear evidence that this person needs to learn how to seperate themself for their own personal agendas.

[QUOTE="c_rake"]

Every other form of media can and does, as I understand it. I don't see why games should be held to a different standard.

KHAndAnime

You make some very valid points about criticisms of entertainment being all across the board, and video games getting more heat now simply because they're the newest form of entertainment.

You're also right that she has a right to say what she wants to say, be it right or wrong or somewhere in between. I just personally disagree with her idealistic view of the world when we have so many other larger problems around the globe to deal with that are more important than always being polite and respectful to women, when men also have to deal with disrespect and are not always treated fairly either. I mean I didn't read her complaining about Trever being depicted as a dumb hillbilly, or Franklin being portrayed as a typical gangsta lowlife.

I've read other reviews from her that spotlight petty sexist insults that seemingly dock points off the score of games for doing so. That kind of thinking in regards to video games just seems ridiculous and quaint to me.

Bigboi500

Yeah, has Franklin been getting any heat for being stereotypical? He seems a lot like CJ, so I've kind of been expecting someone to come out and cry racism like they did with San Andreas.

On another note, it seems like I will always be on the fence about this whole "sexism in the gaming industry" thing. Sometimes I find myself thinking the same thing you do when I read the articles or reviews that are offensive or just grasping at straws. I think they're just being ridiculous and petty. On the other hand I think there are plenty of issues of sexism or gender bias in the industry that definitely need to be addressed. But its all the stuff people hardly even mention. For example, there is proof of subtle gender bias in hiring for STEM fields. Then there's the harassment women in tech face that sometimes gets dismissed by HR (that is appalling). And the fact that women are assumed to be incompetent until proven otherwise, talked over, ignored, and dismissed. Or how some piece of shit magazine made some "40 hottest women in tech article" that praised the women more for their looks and severely downplayed their work, all topped off with the headline "Its no wonder the boys accepted them." But what do you hear about for the most part on gaming sites?

"OMG LOOKIT THE SORCERESS FROM DRAGON'S CROWN! INSTITUTIONAL MISOGYNY GUYZ!!111"

Like really? Real women are being excluded and marginalized and instead of focusing on them, journalists are more inclined to go on a rant about some 2D character? I just don't get it. Where's the outrage for the treatment real world women?

It's almost a win-win for her because she gets to write whatever she wants, and she will get defended by random people, and then her and Gamespot will get more publicity as a result. It's just distasteful. To refer to GTA 5, a game series that has always been rooted in satire, with the hyperbolic phrase 'profoundly misogynistic' - displays an important lack of understanding of the very game series she's reviewing. And I think that's why people have gone as far as to petition her removal.KHAndAnime

Perhaps it would have been better if she had written an entirely separate article on what she thinks to be misogynistic in GTA V instead of mentioning it in a few paragraphs in a review and not really elaborating on it. But as I said in my previous post, saying GTA only treats women poorly ignores how Rockstar has portrayed everyone else. Everyone gets picked on and stereotyped. In a way, GTA is kind of like Family Guy, in that it likes to take jabs at everyone. Also now that I sit and think about it, should we really be expecting human decency in a story about criminals?