The Case Against Writers In Games Industry. Now with scathing rebuttal.

Just came across an interesting piece at Gamasutra. Written by game designer Adam Maxwell, it makes rather strong points. It's a somewhat lenghty read, for interwebz standards, but for the sake of controversy, here's an excerpt:

Had I been hired simply as a writer that would have been the end for me. You see, that studio imploded very shortly thereafter, but it's not that implosion that would have doomed me -- as a designer I survived. No, what would have doomed me is the simple, and some would say sad, truth:There is no places for writers in our industry.

I've always thought that having a dedicated writer could only help a game. I hope this one stays afloat enough to have a few opinions from our fine forumers. Oilers, where are you?

EDIT: It seems that I somehow forgot the link. Now I feel stupid. Well, here's the original article, in case you haven't found it yet. Sorry about the lapsus.

EDIT part deux:Gamasutra has an update on this stuff, with a powerful rebuttal from the IGDA Game Writers Special Interest Group. It offers some interesting insight from the opposite point of view.

Well, I'm not sure about Japan, but this clearly explains why so many RPGs have immature, childish, and shallow stories/writing/plots, etc.

I know for a fact that it's NOT a pro writer who develops Final Fantasy games. It's the developers themselves who come up with those ridiculous stories...games are sometimes fun though, but you have to admit...those JRPGs are wacky and insane.

They could always make games like hotel dusk and ace attorney... it's clear that those games aren't about gameplay,graphics,sound, value etc. as much as storyline.

Seeing the damn gigantic credit lists of recent games you are telling me there is no room for one writer. There should definitely be a place for writers. Now it wont be the same as movies or TV, the writers should NOT be the guys coming up with the game ideas and pitching it to the studios, but they should help flesh out the stories and dialogue in our games.

dvader654

Yeah, in games, the story is only there to facilitate an awesome game. Gears of War didn't even bother to tell you what was going on half the time, and it still managed to be the most awesome game in recent memory!

I was looking for the article but I wanted to respond even though I couldn't find it.

It's embarrassing that Ken Levine doesn't admit how much he stole from a novel and movie, Sophie's Choice; the doctor lady with the accent is Meryl Streep, the impossible choice was from Sophie's Choice, loads of BioShock were ripped off from there; Wikipedia lists a lot of other books and movies Levine stole from. Most of all, Ayn Rand made for a great video game, just as her Fountainhead made for a great movie. So when he calls himself a writer, so are all the high school and college students writers who plagiarize their essays and term papers. I myself was a writer in college. :)

Sophie's Choice is worth seeing. At least Levine had taste.

But Gears did have a great story although I believe AtomicTangerine's point was it was balanced with gameplay, with gameplay most important. The characters in Gears were fantastic; they were quirky too, although I never got a solid answer why they were all built like Arnold Schwarzeneggar.

I think this prejudice against people like Kojima, who started as a non-programmer who was made fun of because all he did was come up with goofy ideas that were never made into games, until his idea for a game based on hide-and-seek where you don't blam everything, and Miyamoto, who also wasn't a programmer, was the same in comic books or graphic novels, where cartoonists used to argue about Alan Moore, a comic book writer who used artists, versus Frank Miller, a man who can both draw and write better than almost anyone in either field. There was a lot of prejudice against Moore and for Miller among artists, and this sounds like the same bogus argument, because the truth is Frank Miller never said that, it was only the cartoonists who were jealous of Moore's writing ability.

As a side note, the scariest day of my life came when I first found out about google image and wanted to see a picture of the great Alan Moore. Don't do it. :o

here's his blog. I couldn't find it on gamasutra.

http://www.dopass.com/node/390

I didn't read it all but from what I read it sounds like it depends on the way the develpment team works and he has a very narrow vision of one.. Biowares Kotor had like 4 or so writers and a main designer that worked closely with them and in the end chose all of the good ideas to use. And looked how that game turned out.

I hope this one stays afloat enough to have a few opinions from our fine forumers. Oilers, where are you?

SteelAttack

Right here. Definitely going to start reading this post, and I could see my feelings on this, depending on the details, falling anywhere from total agreement to vehement loathing. Either way, I'm definitely going to have something to say very soon...

*Goes off to read the original article*

Damn, I'm terribly sorry I forgot to post the original article. It seems that his blog surfaced already, but anyway, here's the thing. Sorry again.

facepalm.gif

I want to shake this guy's hand and slap him at the same time.

He understands the fundamental problem, but the reasons why it's a problem elude him. His example of the time it took to work with a writer on a project rings true. And yes, he has a point that the best person to get for such a position is someone who can contribute to design, but he doesn't understand something extremely critical.

As the designer, he is the storyteller. He is the one who gives the player the abilities that the player will exercise, the scenarios they will go through... this is storytelling, no matter how much the cut-scenes and dialogue may suggest otherwise. It's a sequence of events experienced by the player, thus, storytelling.

The place of the writer is the place of the designer; you create a tale for the player to experience. Nobody sees the fundamental similiarity because "writers" are used to using dramatic plot and characters in a linear medium, whereas designers work with an interactive medium, but they don't know how to use their medium for dramatic plot and characters.

An understanding of interactivity is more important than knowing dramatic storytelling in linear media, but both are lacking... is there anyone who is the true writer-designer, who can craft great characters and plots that flow naturally within an interactive medium?

In that sense, they're both lacking compared to what the industry ultimate will have.

It depends on the type of game you're trying to create. This guy worked on Auto Assault...not only is it an MMO, but it's a car-combat-based MMO...of course you don't need writers for that. Development teams that recognize the importance of good storytelling do have writers - Valve, BioWare, Rockstar, etc. But just like a film director who wrote the script himself, people who are both designers and writers stand the best chance of conveying the storyline in a successful manner. Movies have guys like Paul Thomas Anderson and Quentin Tarantino, games have Ragnar Tornquist and Dan Houser. What's painfully obvious is that we need more guys like that.

Gamasutra has an update with a rebuttal from the Game Writers SIG. They aim to take down some (if not all) of the points that Maxwell brought to the table with his article.

"The work of the writer is inherently linear - the work of the designer is typically *not*."

A bold but bogus claim. Has he never played D&D? Read an RPG module that accommodates several different paths to play through? Read a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book? All of the above were created by writers. All use non-linear storytelling.

"...that's something you can never say about a writer. No matter how well written, a story can't make the game better."

Strange words, since this is exactly what the lead designer on Portal said at GDC during their post-mortem. They had the game mechanics down, but needed a good story, and a good writer, to make the game better.

Interesting read.

Hmm, the truth is, even story-based games don't really have very good stories nowadays. Actually, it's not the stories, it's the dialogue. A game like Hotel Dusk would definitely benefit from a professional writer, as most of the dialogue felt a bit disjointed and childish for the type of mood it tried to confer. Mass Effect featured some nice dialogue and a good story, but still it felt overly familiar to other sci-fi works.

A story-based game will always benefit from using a good writer, but is it worth the investment for game publishers? Dunno, especially now that the adventure game is dead. Still, two decades ago, comics writers were not considered "proper" writers...

A game like Hotel Dusk would definitely benefit from a professional writer, as most of the dialogue felt a bit disjointed and childish for the type of mood it tried to confer. nopalversion

Hmm, the truth is, even story-based games don't really have very good stories nowadays. Actually, it's not the stories, it's the dialogue.nopalversion

I don't think it's even a nowadays thing, games have rarely had good stories. I think a writer, if utilized properly, could add depth to the characters, setting, plot, and resolve the issue of terrible dialog. But, at the same time, how often does the story really matter? If it's not an adventure game or point and click, chances are you can kick the writer to the curb. Super Mario Galaxy, which is plagued by crap story, still ended up GOTY.

I'll admit, I didn't read the article. But I will say, if games are to continue to progress as a storytelling medium, it'd be stupid if professional writers were ignored. Game designers are the heart and soul of the game, but don't have the specialized literary talent to make the excellent dialogue and story twists that would only make games more involving and entertaining.

One of the best written console games in recent memory, Mass Effect, had 3 people in the credits as "writers", one of which has written a newer Star Wars novel. So I'd say it pays to have good writing talent in games.

Actually, it's not the stories, it's the dialogue.nopalversion

I cannot comprehend how can people seperate the two. The writing and dialogue is the storyline. Like when people say Yakuza has a good storyline. No, Yakuza has a good premise, but the storyline is butchered by infantile writing. Then let's take Reservoir Dogs (the film) - the premise itself is rather generic (a jewel heist gone wrong), but it's the writing that makes it as awesome as it is. An interesting premise can take you for only so far, if the writing/dialogue sucks - hey, your storyline sucks.

Dunno, especially now that the adventure game is dead.nopalversion

That's kind of a strange thing to say considering we're in the middle of a subtle revival of the genre. It won't get back to being as big as it was in the '90's, but it's still going - especially here in Europe.

The case against writers in the game industry, oh please. If anything, videogame plots and writing illustrate just how overrated the writer's profession is. I would rate most videogame plots above 90% of the braindead trash that comes out of Hollywood. Amateurs seem to be doing just fine, IMO.

Its the "professionals" that seem to be the problem and game developers appear to have grasped this fact. Just take a look at the movies coming out nowadays. If that's what professional writing can accomplish, then I guess writing a script is so easy a caveman can do it.

I want to shake this guy's hand and slap him at the same time.

He understands the fundamental problem, but the reasons why it's a problem elude him. His example of the time it took to work with a writer on a project rings true. And yes, he has a point that the best person to get for such a position is someone who can contribute to design, but he doesn't understand something extremely critical.

As the designer, he is the storyteller. He is the one who gives the player the abilities that the player will exercise, the scenarios they will go through... this is storytelling, no matter how much the cut-scenes and dialogue may suggest otherwise. It's a sequence of events experienced by the player, thus, storytelling.

The place of the writer is the place of the designer; you create a tale for the player to experience. Nobody sees the fundamental similiarity because "writers" are used to using dramatic plot and characters in a linear medium, whereas designers work with an interactive medium, but they don't know how to use their medium for dramatic plot and characters.

An understanding of interactivity is more important than knowing dramatic storytelling in linear media, but both are lacking... is there anyone who is the true writer-designer, who can craft great characters and plots that flow naturally within an interactive medium?

In that sense, they're both lacking compared to what the industry ultimate will have.

Oilers99

Totally agree with you there. And I think that's why developers such as Miyamoto and Kojima are the biggest names in the industry.

Miyamoto, especially with the Zelda games takes us through an adventure, which although is not text heavy, gives the player a textbook fairytale adventure, and for that reason it has always been important that Link does not speak. Link explores dungeons, encounters new situations and meets the archetypal princess and villain characters. This is typically the 'legend' of the Legend of Zelda. Essentially, the player is realising a fairytale.

Kojima uses a lot of dialogue but also supplements this with interaction. Players have to analyse the situation and the scenery , they are forced to relaste to Snake. And of course, who can forget the legendary 'TURN YOUR CONSOLE OFF NOW...' ending of MGS2. The CODEC conversations are exactly that, especially in MGS3, they feel conversational. In the end, the player goes through an experience, that is what is important.

Both of these developers know that games development is about taking the player through a journey.

On a slightly different note, I like that writers in games have an amatuerish, unique quality, it means that the storylines in games aren't generic but have charachter, they aren't really constrained by finding a 'target audience' like in films. In a film, if the story sucks the movie sucs, in a game if the story sucks the game can still be good, this ultimately means that games developers can be more adventuorous then your conventional story writer.

I would rate most videogame plots above 90% of the braindead trash that comes out of Hollywood. MarcusAntonius

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"] I would rate most videogame plots above 90% of the braindead trash that comes out of Hollywood. ymi_basic

10,000 B.C. says hello;)

Not only has Hollywood plunged to the cliche depths of videogames, it has in fact surpassed such lengths of cliche staple usage.

The case against writers in the game industry, oh please. If anything, videogame plots and writing illustrate just how overrated the writer's profession is. I would rate most videogame plots above 90% of the braindead trash that comes out of Hollywood. Amateurs seem to be doing just fine, IMO.

Its the "professionals" that seem to be the problem and game developers appear to have grasped this fact. Just take a look at the movies coming out nowadays. If that's what professional writing can accomplish, then I guess writing a script is so easy a caveman can do it.

MarcusAntonius

I think that's a little unfair. I'm certainly not going to defend Hollywood, but I'd definitely wager that the vast majority of projects being churned out are less a result of a writer and more a cause of producers and other executives at studios looking for movies that can be sold. Using the caveman show you alluded to with your last line, do you really think a writer pictched that idea to a studio? And for those working on it, making a show about cavemen in the modern day funny seems like an impossible task. Of course it's hard to make a living as a writer, so I don't really blame anyone for taking the work they can get, I just hope they never mention working on that show when trying to get work someplace else. If more writers were allowed to write without strict expectations and demands of studios, the quality of work would probably increase. I have no idea how this would impact an industry where quality is often overlooked for shows about wife swapping, but I know it'd make watching TV and movies a little easier for me.

I definitely think writing in games has gotten better, and compared to some mainstream entertainment, it's pretty darn close. However, it still pales in comparison with the truly elite forms of film, and television. Not that there's a lot of that out there of course.

I think that's a little unfair. I'm certainly not going to defend Hollywood, but I'd definitely wager that the vast majority of projects being churned out are less a result of a writer and more a cause of producers and other executives at studios looking for movies that can be sold. Using the caveman show you alluded to with your last line, do you really think a writer pictched that idea to a studio? And for those working on it, making a show about cavemen in the modern day funny seems like an impossible task. Of course it's hard to make a living as a writer, so I don't really blame anyone for taking the work they can get, I just hope they never mention working on that show when trying to get work someplace else. If more writers were allowed to write without strict expectations and demands of studios, the quality of work would probably increase. I have no idea how this would impact an industry where quality is often overlooked for shows about wife swapping, but I know it'd make watching TV and movies a little easier for me.

I definitely think writing in games has gotten better, and compared to some mainstream entertainment, it's pretty darn close. However, it still pales in comparison with the truly elite forms of film, and television. Not that there's a lot of that out there of course.

JGonspy

I understand where you're going with this, but I fail to see what obstructions the writers in the entertainment industry are having to encounter that aren't found in the interactive industry in terms of creative direction vs. money making.

[QUOTE="ymi_basic"][QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"] I would rate most videogame plots above 90% of the braindead trash that comes out of Hollywood. MarcusAntonius

10,000 B.C. says hello;)

edit: Sorry, I guess my "plunged to the depths" comment invited the crap to crap comparison. However I still see no reason why someone would willingly choose to see such a thing. Even at that, I doubt that the Mass Effect story, dialog, and acting would be better received if presented to an impartial audience than was 10,000BC.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

[QUOTE="ymi_basic"][QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"] I would rate most videogame plots above 90% of the braindead trash that comes out of Hollywood. ymi_basic

10,000 B.C. says hello;)

edit: Sorry, I guess my "plunged to the depths" comment invited the crap to crap comparison. However I still see no reason why someone would willingly choose to see such a thing. Even at that, I doubt that the Mass Effect story, dialog, and acting would be better received if presented to an impartial audience than was 10,000BC.

How can you say that, JRPGs although atmittedly cliched is more sophisticated in theme and depth then 99% of the dross in Hollywood.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

[QUOTE="ymi_basic"][QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"] I would rate most videogame plots above 90% of the braindead trash that comes out of Hollywood. ymi_basic

10,000 B.C. says hello;)

edit: Sorry, I guess my "plunged to the depths" comment invited the crap to crap comparison. However I still see no reason why someone would willingly choose to see such a thing. Even at that, I doubt that the Mass Effect story, dialog, and acting would be better received if presented to an impartial audience than was 10,000BC.

Mass Effect wasn't written to be a movie, 10,000 BC was. As such, it would be atrocious if directly converted to a movie, despite it's excellent characters, dialogue, and setting. I really don't see your point.

[QUOTE="ymi_basic"][QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

[QUOTE="ymi_basic"][QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"] I would rate most videogame plots above 90% of the braindead trash that comes out of Hollywood. MetalGear_Ninty

10,000 B.C. says hello;)

edit: Sorry, I guess my "plunged to the depths" comment invited the crap to crap comparison. However I still see no reason why someone would willingly choose to see such a thing. Even at that, I doubt that the Mass Effect story, dialog, and acting would be better received if presented to an impartial audience than was 10,000BC.

How can you say that, JRPGs although atmittedly cliched is more sophisticated in theme and depth then 99% of the dross in Hollywood.

You have to remember that Japanese storytelling and cinema is HEAVILY influenced by American storytelling and cinema. While a Japanese audience might find that to be fresh, regurgutating it back to us doesn't work so well. Especially when considering that their entertainment industry hasn't had nearly as much time to mature. This is why you often get lines in a Japanese game or anime that would make most Americans snicker. Sometimes the translators do a good job of making it sound a little more believable, and sometimes they don't. Which is why every once in awhile you'll have a scene where two guys meet up in the middle of an infiltration operation, and one guy asks "Do you think love can bloom on the battlefield?". Think of how many people would snicker and/or get up and walk out of the theater at that moment.

While American cinema has had many years to mature and get past periods like that where awkward lines are being said, and ridiculous situations are occurring, this is something the Japanese are still going through and to them it is obviously still acceptable. But your'e reaching just a tad if you think that sort of drivel is going to impress a mainstream American audience in any way.

How can you say that, JRPGs although atmittedly cliched is more sophisticated in theme and depth then 99% of the dross in Hollywood.MetalGear_Ninty

My goodness, what kind of movies do you watch? I'm a huge proponent of game storytelling, but let's be realistic here. Games aren't even close to movies in that aspect. Not even close. Especially Japanese RPG's.

While American cinema has had many years to mature and get past periods like that where awkward lines are being said, and ridiculous situations are occurring, this is something the Japanese are still going through and to them it is obviously still acceptable. But your'e reaching just a tad if you think that sort of drivel is going to impress a mainstream American audience in any way.Mash_Affect

If you think Japanese films are anywhere near as bad as Japanese games, you are mistaken. It's not a matter of Japanese storytelling being inferior to American at all, it's game storytelling being inferior to films.

[QUOTE="Mash_Affect"]While American cinema has had many years to mature and get past periods like that where awkward lines are being said, and ridiculous situations are occurring, this is something the Japanese are still going through and to them it is obviously still acceptable. But your'e reaching just a tad if you think that sort of drivel is going to impress a mainstream American audience in any way.UpInFlames

If you think Japanese films are anywhere near as bad as Japanese games, you are mistaken. It's not a matter of Japanese storytelling being inferior to American at all, it's game storytelling being inferior to films.

I've heard many of the American translators say the same thing. Basically it's a complete joke before they touch it. They try their best to make the dialogue seem clever or natural, but even they can only do so much. And often times it still comes off as utterly ridiculous.

Heck the guy that translated the original MGS was fired because Kojima found out he was changing too much. For that, it's easily the best and least awkward of the series. He even wanted to get rid of that awful "do you think love can bloom on the battlefield?" line. Which still causes laughter between me and my buddies. For reasons I'm not sure of, he was unable to.

[QUOTE="Oilers99"]

As the designer, he is the storyteller. He is the one who gives the player the abilities that the player will exercise, the scenarios they will go through... this is storytelling, no matter how much the cut-scenes and dialogue may suggest otherwise. It's a sequence of events experienced by the player, thus, storytelling.

... An understanding of interactivity is more important than knowing dramatic storytelling in linear media, but both are lacking... is there anyone who is the true writer-designer

MetalGear_Ninty

Totally agree with you there. And I think that's why developers such as Miyamoto and Kojima are the biggest names in the industry. ... Both of these developers know that games development is about taking the player through a journey.

Good points. Maybe Maxwell's article would have been better titled "A case against using TRADITIONAL writers in the games industry." Or "The designer/writer, A Case for a New Kind of Writer in the Games Industry."

All Maxwell is really saying is that traditional storytelling can't make a great game. And IMO he is correct. His main point is that games are not like movies. Games are about the interactivity. He uses a good example -- traditional writers were not needed to make pong a great game. It was all about the experience of hitting a square with a line.

I'm less impressed by his discussion of how traditional storytelling actually makes games worse. He uses FFVII as an example. According to Maxwell, FFVII is "hamstrung repeatedly to allow for storytelling mechanics." He says that gameplay mechanics suffered for the sake of the story ("interminable cinematics, boring exposition dialog and pointless interruptions to the gameplay" were included). He concludes that "I don't think I'd have played Final Fantasy VII without the story." This is not a nod to the power of a good story. To the contrary, in his view, the storyline undercut the gameplay mechanics so much that FFVII isn't worth playing as a game. It appears it is only worth playing as a poor substitute for a movie or a book.

I haven't played FFVII. But that discussion seems unfair. I have played other FFs and I like their turn-based RPG game mechanics. (To a certain extent I played FFX-2 and FFXII despite their storylines because I enjoyed their battle systems.)

I think a better example to make his point would be a game like Indigo Prophecy. This was a game where gameplay certainly seemed like an afterthought. Inane Simple Simon sequences were used as an excuse to advance the clichéd storyline. In fact, I don't think there is anyone out there who would recommend IP based on its gameplay mechanics. If I'm wrong, please chime in.

Whoever was responsible for IP, whether it was a developer/writer or a traditional writer, they just didn't seem to understand that a fundamental requisite for a good game is good gameplay mechanics. The only thing IP had going for it was its storyline. So, from the get-go it did not appeal to a lot of gamers. Let's face facts, people buy movies/books for the storyline. People buy games for the interactivity. It is that simple. I confess that I bought IP. But I'm not really a typical game buyer and I also believed the buzz that said it provided a new kind of interactive story experience. With its focus on basically traditional type storytelling, IP was unable to deliver a good game experience.

In contrast, a game like Metal Gear Solid perfectly blends storytelling with the experience. The gameplay enhances enjoyment of the story and the story enhances enjoyment of the gameplay. There is your proof that the Games Industry requires a new kind of writer = the developer/writer

Yes I've seen my fair share of Japanese movies and cartoons. They seem to take their video game stories just as seriously as they do with any other form of entertainment. In otherwords it's all pretty cheesy." Mash_Affect

That's a pretty big generalization there. The Japanese movie scene is not all about anime and kung-fu movies. They have dramas and comedies and all types of movies.

Just think of the kinds of shows we Americans send out to the rest of the world. What impression do you think they might have of the average level of American taste if they only see things like 80s action shows like Knight Rider, old soap operas like Dallas, old 70s sitcoms like Three's Company, or action movies like Rambo.

There is definitely cheesy Japanese entertainment out there, just as there is a lot of cheesy American entertainment out there. Both countries have also produced a lot of quality stuff.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]How can you say that, JRPGs although atmittedly cliched is more sophisticated in theme and depth then 99% of the dross in Hollywood.UpInFlames

My goodness, what kind of movies do you watch? I'm a huge proponent of game storytelling, but let's be realistic here. Games aren't even close to movies in that aspect. Not even close. Especially Japanese RPG's.

But I'm not talking about writing skills, how the story is presented and overall style, in that sense, movies far outstrip games as you have said - however, I'm talking about the complexity of storyline that tackles religious/philosophical issues, you rarely see movies these days that challenge the intellect and evoke serious thought in the viewer, unlike some games such as MGS, Tales of Symphonia etc.

The only movie that I can think of that seriously challenges thought is The Matrix trilogy (altough there are doubtless others I can't think of at the moment) and yet 2 and 3 of the trilogy were slammed by movie critics for being pretentious and convouted. You just do not see any intellectual depth in modern movies, those that do have depth concentrate on character, people, cultural identity but not actual sophisticated themes. What I'm saying is that films are far too conventional for their own good. And whilst 'love blooming on the battlefield' comes out awkward, it is appreciated by many because it is exactly what you wouldn't see in a movie.

The only movie that I can think of that seriously challenges thought is The Matrix trilogy ... MetalGear_Ninty

You might want to graduate yourself from the scifi/action genre. Maybe even try a movie that doesn't have 50+ copies at Blockbuster.

[QUOTE="UpInFlames"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]How can you say that, JRPGs although atmittedly cliched is more sophisticated in theme and depth then 99% of the dross in Hollywood.MetalGear_Ninty

My goodness, what kind of movies do you watch? I'm a huge proponent of game storytelling, but let's be realistic here. Games aren't even close to movies in that aspect. Not even close. Especially Japanese RPG's.

But I'm not talking about writing skills, how the story is presented and overall style, in that sense, movies far outstrip games as you have said - however, I'm talking about the complexity of storyline that tackles religious/philosophical issues, you rarely see movies these days that challenge the intellect and evoke serious thought in the viewer, unlike some games such as MGS, Tales of Symphonia etc.

The only movie that I can think of that seriously challenges thought is The Matrix trilogy (altough there are doubtless others I can't think of at the moment) and yet 2 and 3 of the trilogy were slammed by movie critics for being pretentious and convouted. You just do not see any intellectual depth in modern movies, those that do have depth concentrate on character, people, cultural identity but not actual sophisticated themes. What I'm saying is that films are far too conventional for their own good. And whilst 'love blooming on the battlefield' comes out awkward, it is appreciated by many because it is exactly what you wouldn't see in a movie.

There are plenty of movies throughout history that have been able to convey a message through suggestion and interpretation, but hardly ever do they make it so obvious so that it becomes detrimental to the actual plot.

If it makes you feel any better, the woman that took the place of the MGS1 translator called MGS2 the single worst script that she had ever read.

Because philosophical discussion is better suited for a documentary. Creating a cinematic scene where two characters express their opinions on such matters in ridiculous situations is not really the place for it. And MGS always seemed to try much too hard. It didn't come off as intelligent enough for a game cinematic, movie, or even a documentary. Just pretentious banter.

There are plenty of movies throughout history that have been able to convey a message through suggestion and interpretation, but hardly ever do they make it so obvious so that it becomes detrimental to the actual plot.

If it makes you feel any better, the woman that took the place of the MGS1 translator called MGS2 the single worst script that she had ever read.

Mash_Affect

I never said that it had to be done aggressively, but it can be done subtley, but you rarely see that depth in movies, I just think in movies they concentrate much more on character, relationship, scenario, culture etc. rather than greater issues.

ymi_basic: I think The Matrix is about much more than flash sequences, but I doubt you would understand.