Third Parties Re-evaluating Their Wii Support?

Today Gamasutra put up a feature article regarding the reaction of third-party publishers to decreased hardware and software sales. Highlights include:

-Wii hardware sales down 14% in 2009 compared to 2008
-Capcom insists their stance on the Wii isn't changing despite "abysmal" sales of Zack & Wiki (120k) and RE: Darkside Chronicles (12k)
-Dead Space Extraction only sells 10k. Sega exec said they were paying close attention to see what happens when a studio with marketing muscle puts out a "core" game on the Wii, and now they're unlikely to do more "mature" Wii titles (The commercial failure of Mad World and The Conduit probably didn't help)
-Market is over-saturated with mini-game collections, big retailers are actually refusing to stock them.
-Wii has as many games released in a year as X360 + PS3 combined
-Marvelous entertainment made money on 4/5 of their PSP games in 2009, lost money on 3/4 of its Wii games
-Some analyst claims that Wii owners are buying less and less games, while 360/PS3 owners are buying more games
-EA says they do they fine on the Wii, and will continue do fine (they're #2 publisher on the Wii behind Nintendo)
-Michael Pachter is optimistic about the Wii...the Wii must be doomed. :P

It's pretty clear that at the very least, a lot of third-parties need to try something different on the Wii. Nintendo continues to rake in the money and dominate and the sales charts, but outside of EA it looks like everyone's scratching their heads a bit. What's your take?

Sad, but not really surprising. 3rd parties haven't done all that well on a Nintendo console in well over a decade. A few standouts here and there but that's about it. Add to the fact that there is so much shovelware, that to the average consumer the good games are quickly lost in the shuffle.

What's your take?Teufelhuhn

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"] What's your take?CellAnimation

I was going to debate the comment about Nintendo and decent titles, but I saw you said "most" :P

While I'd love to see 3rd parties do that, why should they? Sad fact is they know they can put out something crappy and shallow and it will still sell enough to garner them a profit, while the time and effort it takes to make a quality title seems like a waste of time when the sales are(at best, usually)abysmal. So the shovelware stinks for us, but for them it's easy money because apparently there are people out there buying this crap.

I dunno, I think the past couple of years the Wii has shown it is a victim of it's own hype.

great point, thier is to much so called shovel ware on the system and a game like mad world which was a good game in my opinion gets lost because of the numbers game. we need quality.

It's sad, but I can't say I'm really interested in any of those titles either...

Can't say I'm surprised. The Wii was a console built by Nintendo for Nintendo gamers only. While I applaud Iwata's stroke of genius in Nintendo's approach to this console gen, the Wii is starting to see some diminishing returns. Just as the case was with the Gamecube, what kind of effort are third parties supposed to give when Nintendo IPs are sucking the oxygen out of the room?

Who will still want to gamble the investment on an original title just to see it buried by another Nintendo first party title and taking a loss? Then there's the part about the Wii hardware and its limitations, those of which have cut it off from potential multiplat releases. It's little wonder why the Wii has become a depository for shovelware. Why produce a top notch original title for the Wii when you can shovel something out and ride Nintendo's coattails?

Today Gamasutra put up a feature article regarding the reaction of third-party publishers to decreased hardware and software sales. Highlights include:

-Wii hardware sales down 14% in 2009 compared to 2008
-Capcom insists their stance on the Wii isn't changing despite "abysmal" sales of Zack & Wiki (120k) and RE: Darkside Chronicles (12k)
-Dead Space Extraction only sells 10k. Sega exec said they were paying close attention to see what happens when a studio with marketing muscle puts out a "core" game on the Wii, and now they're unlikely to do more "mature" Wii titles (The commercial failure of Mad World and The Conduit probably didn't help)
-Market is over-saturated with mini-game collections, big retailers are actually refusing to stock them.
-Wii has as many games released in a year as X360 + PS3 combined
-Marvelous entertainment made money on 4/5 of their PSP games in 2009, lost money on 3/4 of its Wii games
-Some analyst claims that Wii owners are buying less and less games, while 360/PS3 owners are buying more games
-EA says they do they fine on the Wii, and will continue do fine (they're #2 publisher on the Wii behind Nintendo)
-Michael Pachter is optimistic about the Wii...the Wii must be doomed. :P

It's pretty clear that at the very least, a lot of third-parties need to try something different on the Wii. Nintendo continues to rake in the money and dominate and the sales charts, but outside of EA it looks like everyone's scratching their heads a bit. What's your take?

Teufelhuhn

Wii owners are still buying Mario games in pretty huge numbers, the problem is Wii is a Nintendo console, with a Nintendo fanbase, third-party games willalways take a backseat compared to something like a Mario game. I know some wii owners like to blame the quality of the third-party games, but then they can't expect the same level of quality, scale and sophistication of a AAA game on an HD console because the Wii simply doesn't have the hardware necessary to run something like a GTAIV. Sure R* can water it down but that would defeat the purpose.

There's no point for "port-downs" because a "port-down" simply doesn't come close to the same level of experience, but publishers can't make Wii games and port-up because that would be suicide on HD consoles. The wii sku will never be the number 1 sku, and since it's not, it will never get the big marketing that will drive the sales, it's a never-ending cycle resulting in second-rate teams working on the Wii hardware. The advantage of wii development is lower costs, to spend $20-25 million (the typical cost of a blockbuster HD title) would be absurd,at this point, HD console development is mature enough that on the wii the developer will never getthe same result and you're increasing the investment risk for no real reason. It's BETTER for the publishers to make shovelware for the Wii, because it's cheap and the risk is much lower, this is a serious problem that cannot be fixed.

The other problem is the userbase that was gained through the novelty of motion controls will not buy hardcore games, there's no point making hardcore games for them, you have wives and girlfriends who simply won't care about a modern warfare 2 on the Wii.

I'm shocked that anyone is shocked that games likeDeadspace: Extraction and RE: Darkside Chronicles sold like crap..They are stupid on rails spin offs.

The Wii's limitations and audience don't help matters, but developer's shouldn't be surprised that a game no one wants to play doesn't sell well.

I disagree with everyone who claims that the Wii audience is made up only of die-hard Nintendo fans. Sure, the N64/GC crowd (who tend to buy everything linked to Mario/Zelda/Metroid and ignore everything else) has picked up Wiis, but if they were the only audience, saleswise the Wii would be the GC.

Third parties who make core games on the Wii should look to see how well 3rd party games did on the GC, because their audience is the GC audience. It makes sense for Sega to make Sonic games on the Wii (Sonic did very well on the GC) but it doesn't really make sense for anyone else unless they are going to have Mario, Link or Samus guest star in their game (remember how 3rd parties started slapping Nintendo characters intotheir games midway through the life of the GC? :? ).

The biggest chunk of the Wii audience is new casual gamers (who scorned old games due to both the complexity of the games and the complexity of controllers). The problem the industry has reaching such people is not their loyalty to a handful of characters or franchises, its the fact that most in the industry has no appreciation of casual games (if you don't know what makes a genre fun, how can one make a good game in that genre?).

Look at the list of 2010 topsellers predicted by industry professionals below. It will be wrong (there are no casual games, and casual games are immensely popular) but it reveals how little regard most industry professionals have for casual games. I don't think they are dimissing their sales potential, they just aren't even thinking of minigame collections when they think of games.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/halo-reach-to-be-biggest-seller-in-2010

In summary, given the brand loyalty of most of the core gamers who own Wiis and the fact most game designers lacks an appreciation casual games, developing for the Wii is a waste of time for overwhelming majority of the industry despite the size of its userbase. Wise third parties will focus on the X360/PS3/PC (where their audience is) and push Sony and MS towards further pricecuts. On a related note, I recently read a Nielsen survey which stated that the PS2 was the second most played console behind the X360 in 2009. Clearly there are lots of budget concious core gamers sitting on the sidelines of the current gen until the hardware becomes more affordable.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/nielsen-52-per-cent-of-psp-owners-female

Well, come on. Sales figures were always gonna decrease. Out of my friends, every single one has a Wii. In fact, I don't know anyone who wants a Wii but hasn't got one. And some have traded them in after Natal/thingy for PS3 and the novelty has worn off. Personally, I might sell mine just after Christmas next year.

Who will still want to gamble the investment on an original title just to see it buried by another Nintendo first party title and taking a loss? Then there's the part about the Wii hardware and its limitations, those of which have cut it off from potential multiplat releases. It's little wonder why the Wii has become a depository for shovelware. Why produce a top notch original title for the Wii when you can shovel something out and ride Nintendo's coattails?

MarcusAntonius

I'm shocked that anyone is shocked that games likeDeadspace: Extraction and RE: Darkside Chronicles sold like crap..They are stupid on rails spin offs.

Gamefan1986

Not surprising. The vast majority of Wii owners are super casual gamers who have never owned or played a video game system before. They bought the Wii because they heard about it on TV, the radio, and from their friends and were mesmerized by the novelty of motion controls. They then buy a few games (usually all of them minigame compilations) for the novelty ("hehe, look at me, I'm actually playing a video game!") and then stop a few months later after the novelty wears off. Nintendo seems to be the only company who is aware of how to exploit their target demographic. Things like Wii Fit, Wii Motion Plus, Wii Zapper, and Wii Music appeal very strongly to those super casual gamers because they introduce a new novelty.

Meanwhile not a lot of core gamers have bought the Wii. It's mostly just Nintendo fanboys who bought the system so they could play the latest entries in Nintendo's flagship franchises. The Wii's outdated hardware pretty much ensured this outcome. Thus, very little of the Wii's install base is made up of people who are interested in games like Mad World and Dead Space: Extraction.

3rd party developers haven't really come to grasp this situation until very recently. They got too caught up in Wii frenzy back when it seemed like the Wii was a goldmine due to its exploding userbase. No one really stopped to think about the buying habits of Nintendo's new demographic although a few studies were released each year that pretty much said exactly what I'm saying in this post. Now 3rd party developers and publishers are starting to understand that core games do not sell on Wii and that the games that do sell (like minigame compilations) are extremely oversaturated both due to sheer supply (I dare say every Wii developer has made at least one minigame compilation game by now) and low demand (Wii owners don't buy more than a few games).

A lot of this is Nintendo's fault too. They were too busy trying to grow their casual install base to bother with the core gamers. If something isn't done about this soon (or rather done for Nintendo's next system since I think it's too late for the Wii) then Nintendo is going to find themselves exactly where they were before with the GC; pathetic 3rd party support and a tiny install base.

A lot of this is Nintendo's fault too. They were too busy trying to grow their casual install base to bother with the core gamers. If something isn't done about this soon (or rather done for Nintendo's next system since I think it's too late for the Wii) then Nintendo is going to find themselves exactly where they were before with the GC; pathetic 3rd party support and a tiny install base.

gameguy6700

While its tricky to predict the behavior of such a new market, there aren't any signs casuals are going anywhere. But there isn't a negative relationship between core and casual games, so that's fine. The fact a bunch of new gamers are playing minigame collections hasn't stop us core gamers from getting plenty of great games, and I don't think it will in the future.

This thread title should be "Stupid third-parties re-evaluating their Wii support". Seriously, what is this, 2006? Smart developers saw what was going on years ago and ignored the Wii - for good reason.

Who will still want to gamble the investment on an original title just to see it buried by another Nintendo first party title and taking a loss? Then there's the part about the Wii hardware and its limitations, those of which have cut it off from potential multiplat releases. It's little wonder why the Wii has become a depository for shovelware. Why produce a top notch original title for the Wii when you can shovel something out and ride Nintendo's coattails?

MarcusAntonius

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]Who will still want to gamble the investment on an original title just to see it buried by another Nintendo first party title and taking a loss? Then there's the part about the Wii hardware and its limitations, those of which have cut it off from potential multiplat releases. It's little wonder why the Wii has become a depository for shovelware. Why produce a top notch original title for the Wii when you can shovel something out and ride Nintendo's coattails?

reyad-u

RE4 was a case of four dipping, I wouldn't even count that. Many Wii owners may have been disappointed about RE otherwise going the rail-shooter route with the Wii, but it was a game tailored just for the Wii, so what was there to complain about? Wii owners who complain about not getting a Wii version of RE5 really need to wake up to face some cold reality. For the record, the RE shooters were pretty good.

Then again, shopping "M" rated games on the Wii is a risky venture to begin with as the demographic just isn't there.

[QUOTE="gameguy6700"]

A lot of this is Nintendo's fault too. They were too busy trying to grow their casual install base to bother with the core gamers. If something isn't done about this soon (or rather done for Nintendo's next system since I think it's too late for the Wii) then Nintendo is going to find themselves exactly where they were before with the GC; pathetic 3rd party support and a tiny install base.

CarnageHeart

While its tricky to predict the behavior of such a new market, there aren't any signs casuals are going anywhere. But there isn't a negative relationship between core and casual games, so that's fine. The fact a bunch of new gamers are playing minigame collections hasn't stop us core gamers from getting plenty of great games, and I don't think it will in the future.

What shouldn't be lost in the discussion is the Wii's commanding lead in terms of marketshare. The opportunity is there for any bold developer who wants to truly utilize the Wii control scheme (and I don't mean Crystal Dynamics' laughably awful port of TR: Underworld) But again, it comes back to some daunting factors to overcome in third party development for the Wii:

• Contending for attention with Nintendo's first party releases
• the Wii's demographic, Nintendo gamers and non-gamers who got the Wii for workouts or group/community activities only
• limited hardware capacity

RE4 was a case of four dipping, I wouldn't even count that.Many Wii owners may have been disappointed about RE otherwise going the rail-shooter route with the Wii, but it was a game tailored just for the Wii, so what was there to complain about? Wii owners who complain about not getting a Wii version of RE5 really need to wake up to face some cold reality. For the record, the RE shooters were pretty good.

Then again, shopping "M" rated games on the Wii is a risky venture to begin with as the demographic just isn't there.

MarcusAntonius

Which is why I would count that, If a game had multiple releases, which were not simultanaeosly, and it still sells a hefty amount it goes to show that Wii owners were willing to buy a good game if there was one.

Just because the game was tailored doesn't mean that's what the gamers want, REUC, first on rails, sold over a million but I think since then the Wii had one too many on rails instead of the full fledged version. If RE4 sold well, why not try another game that is similar? I'm not saying port RE5 for the Wii but surely they could have done another RE game for the Wii with RE4 like controls? How about Dead Space:Extraction? why not do a similer DS game like the one found on the 360/PS3/PC? seems like they simply don't want to take any risks for a system that costs less to develop for and would rather develop for the HD systems, no?

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

RE4 was a case of four dipping, I wouldn't even count that.Many Wii owners may have been disappointed about RE otherwise going the rail-shooter route with the Wii, but it was a game tailored just for the Wii, so what was there to complain about? Wii owners who complain about not getting a Wii version of RE5 really need to wake up to face some cold reality. For the record, the RE shooters were pretty good.

Then again, shopping "M" rated games on the Wii is a risky venture to begin with as the demographic just isn't there.

reyad-u

Which is why I would count that, If a game had multiple releases, which were not simultanaeosly, and it still sells a hefty amount it goes to show that Wii owners were willing to buy a good game if there was one.

Just because the game was tailored doesn't mean that's what the gamers want, REUC, first on rails, sold over a million but I think since then the Wii had one too many on rails instead of the full fledged version. If RE4 sold well, why not try another game that is similar? I'm not saying port RE5 for the Wii but surely they could have done another RE game for the Wii with RE4 like controls? How about Dead Space:Extraction? why not do a similer DS game like the one found on the 360/PS3/PC? seems like they simply don't want to take any risks for a system that costs less to develop for and would rather develop for the HD systems, no?

RE4 wasn't a true Wii title, that's precisely why it shouldn't be considered a factor. Why not make another game like RE4? Simple, it's a last gen title, that's why. If Capcom believed that RE5 would be a good investment worth the time and trouble, we would have gotten a RE5 port for the Wii instead of Darkside Chronicles. The RE4 port was near effortless for Capcom, the game was already made after all.

That's kind of the theme of third party Wii game development, get in-get out for the quick buck with as little effort as necessary. Sad, but true.

Nintendo needs to do something. They need to re-introduce the quality control they used to have in the NES days, and stop companies from releasing yet another crappy mini-game compilations.

And the 3rd parties themselves need to do something, too, They can't just make any game and expect it to sell. I mean Zack and Wiki was great. But no one knows about it. Of course it didn't sell. They need their marketing department to do some work if they want their wii games to sell

I normally don't bite on these type of threads, but WTF it's Saturday and the 49ers didn't make the playoffs. So just this once, i'll throw in my 2 cents.

I think the number one problem is perception.

The perception that the Wii is for the "casual fan base and not the hardcore." When the fact is, that all these "hardcore games" that 99.9% of forum base users claim and categorize are actually pretty casual. Outside of these forums, no one gives a crap about casual or hardcore. Take into account that a majority of posters post on different websites and your so called hardcore crowd is actually pretty small. Johnny Joe Blow is more likely to play Call of Duty 4 or the next Halo, then say Mad World or No More Heroes. Because, they are more accessible. Add insecurities about how one looks while swinging a remote and you have an instant turn off, while they secretly wish for a port to an HD counsel.

The N64 domino effect.

Here is another problem. Ever since the N64, Nintendos loyal fan base has given the cold shoulder to any 3rd party. Ever since then everything is Metroid this and Zelda that due to the fact that the N64 was a first party monster. Nintendo systems have yet to recover from the backlash and the perception that the only thing worth buying is a Nintendo developed and published game. Because that's pretty much all they had on that system. This mindset has carried on through the GC and the Wii. When the N64 was released two things happened, those who grew up with NES moved on. They either left gaming, because they were older and no longer enjoyed gaming or they moved on to the next media storage device. The difference between a cartridge and a disci s the equivalent of the VHS and DVD. To quote one of my favorite bands:

"Times are going to change, change or step aside, well it's the thought of it that took you by surprise" - Rancid

And so the times changed..... and so did the media and all along Nintendo was to stuck in their ways to realize that time had past them bye.

So here we are again 2010 and the same &#T^*!@ topic rages on, blah, blah, blegh! But now we have numbers, links, and a history of what went wrong to back up what we spit out. Despite having some solid third party support the games are still struggling.The key is advertising, which there is none. Sure you have your pop up adds on the Internet and magazine adds but, that is only a small piece of the pie. Which is you the reader of this post. Where are the T.V. adds and the Grand Theft Auto like billboards and buss stop adds? Where is the HUGE wrap around decal on the bus driving around stuck in traffic?

Brand recognition sells. So Nintendo doesn't need to advertise. Third parties take on the same attitude and fail miserably. Left wondering why they can't reach this gens largest audience. If they took the time to pull their heads out their ass and actually put some marketing muscle behind one of their games, then maybe they would see a difference in their profit. Not advertising the Virtual Counsel is probably their biggest mistake this generation. They literally expect people to trip over their Wii-mote, fall flat on their face and hope that they somehow smash the A button with an eye or their nose and hope that they some how stumble across a gold mine.

The Wii was meant to be a machine for creative minds to expand their horizons in terms of game play. It turns out that the industry lacks creativity and is filled with me too developers and if it isn't broke, then why fix it attitude.

I own all three systems this gen and out of the three, I have more disc based games on the Wii. All but one are from third party developers. Of course I am the minority. There are no party games in my collection, just straight up awesome gaming experiences.

Change is a scary thing. It's the only thing in life that is permanent. Once you experience change there is no going back. Now you have Natal and some sort of wand for Sony. Suddenly motion controls are cool because, "hey!" Its in HD. Change with the times.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

RE4 was a case of four dipping, I wouldn't even count that.Many Wii owners may have been disappointed about RE otherwise going the rail-shooter route with the Wii, but it was a game tailored just for the Wii, so what was there to complain about? Wii owners who complain about not getting a Wii version of RE5 really need to wake up to face some cold reality. For the record, the RE shooters were pretty good.

Then again, shopping "M" rated games on the Wii is a risky venture to begin with as the demographic just isn't there.

reyad-u

Which is why I would count that, If a game had multiple releases, which were not simultanaeosly, and it still sells a hefty amount it goes to show that Wii owners were willing to buy a good game if there was one.

Just because the game was tailored doesn't mean that's what the gamers want, REUC, first on rails, sold over a million but I think since then the Wii had one too many on rails instead of the full fledged version. If RE4 sold well, why not try another game that is similar? I'm not saying port RE5 for the Wii but surely they could have done another RE game for the Wii with RE4 like controls? How about Dead Space:Extraction? why not do a similer DS game like the one found on the 360/PS3/PC? seems like they simply don't want to take any risks for a system that costs less to develop for and would rather develop for the HD systems, no?

Why doesn't Nintendo fund big budget original games?Normally its first parties who spend money (which Nintendo has no shortage of) trying to prove a genre can work on their platform. Both Sony and MS have spent and are spending a lot of money making original, sometimes innovative games. In the past Nintendo (and Sega) did so. Nowadays, Nintendo never releases a game which isn't tied into an old franchise, so they apparently don't believeWii owners have anappetite for original core games.

so they apparently don't believeWii owners have anappetite for original core games.

CarnageHeart

And as long as people keep buying Wiis and boosting Nintendo's marketshare, that message will only be reinforced.

What's sad is when a developer puts out an on rails shooter and considers it a "core" game or that it should fulfill the desires of people who want "mature" games. I mean, seriously... If these guys would stop being lazy and actually produce full fledged games instead of these watered down "you'll-buy-it-because-of-its-title" junk, then maybe they would see some better sales. C'mon, RE4Wii edition is freakin' AWESOME, why are they wasting time and money on on-rails throwbacks when they could be making RE4Wii styled games (Side story to RE5 or completely separate story with Leon please? Would sell like water in a desert!) And Deadspace... with its I'll-draw-a-piece-of-the-line-then-you-draw-a-piece-of-the-line multiplayer "puzzles"... seriously? I don't know who these guys are trying to fool... us? or themselves?Michael-Smith

Why doesn't Nintendo fund such a game to show Capcom and EA what fools they are being? Oh, wait, they did. Fatal Frame, which sold poorly and never left Japan.

C'mon, RE4Wii edition is freakin' AWESOME, why are they wasting time and money on on-rails throwbacks when they could be making RE4Wii styled games (Side story to RE5 or completely separate story with Leon please? Would sell like water in a desert!) Michael-Smith

Uh, RE4 was a ported title, a cheapo game that only needed to have Wii controls implemented. It was an easy cash grab for Capcom that probably didn't take a whole lot of time and cost to produce. Just because a game with the Resident Evil label sold well (especially one in its fourth release)doesn't translate into the Wii demographic as being hugely supportive of M-rated games.

[QUOTE="Michael-Smith"]What's sad is when a developer puts out an on rails shooter and considers it a "core" game or that it should fulfill the desires of people who want "mature" games. I mean, seriously... If these guys would stop being lazy and actually produce full fledged games instead of these watered down "you'll-buy-it-because-of-its-title" junk, then maybe they would see some better sales. C'mon, RE4Wii edition is freakin' AWESOME, why are they wasting time and money on on-rails throwbacks when they could be making RE4Wii styled games (Side story to RE5 or completely separate story with Leon please? Would sell like water in a desert!) And Deadspace... with its I'll-draw-a-piece-of-the-line-then-you-draw-a-piece-of-the-line multiplayer "puzzles"... seriously? I don't know who these guys are trying to fool... us? or themselves?CarnageHeart

Why doesn't Nintendo fund such a game to show Capcom and EA what fools they are being? Oh, wait, they did. Fatal Frame, which sold poorly and never left Japan.

That example is the height of disingenuousness Carnage and you know it. Fatal Frame? An extremely niche series that had no following on any Nintendo console flops on the Wii and this is a surprise to anyone? Seriously? Really?

Nintendo needs to start focusing on actual titles fast. I'm sick of mario based games that aren't actually mario games. Get back to the real muscle of nintendo; Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Mario, etc. And no mini game based spin offs, those things are among the worst ideas I've seen in the gaming industry. All it does is tell the fans that you know they like the characters, but aren't willing to invest more time into actual games.

This will at least motivate 3rd parties to work harder on Wii games.

This will at least motivate 3rd parties to work harder on Wii games.

solidsnake2050

Well, if the Wii's marketshare dominance won't do it, I doubt little else will.

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

[QUOTE="Michael-Smith"]What's sad is when a developer puts out an on rails shooter and considers it a "core" game or that it should fulfill the desires of people who want "mature" games. I mean, seriously... If these guys would stop being lazy and actually produce full fledged games instead of these watered down "you'll-buy-it-because-of-its-title" junk, then maybe they would see some better sales. C'mon, RE4Wii edition is freakin' AWESOME, why are they wasting time and money on on-rails throwbacks when they could be making RE4Wii styled games (Side story to RE5 or completely separate story with Leon please? Would sell like water in a desert!) And Deadspace... with its I'll-draw-a-piece-of-the-line-then-you-draw-a-piece-of-the-line multiplayer "puzzles"... seriously? I don't know who these guys are trying to fool... us? or themselves?MarcusAntonius

Why doesn't Nintendo fund such a game to show Capcom and EA what fools they are being? Oh, wait, they did. Fatal Frame, which sold poorly and never left Japan.

That example is the height of disingenuousness Carnage and you know it. Fatal Frame? An extremely niche series that had no following on any Nintendo console flops on the Wii and this is a surprise to anyone? Seriously? Really?

I didn't pick the series, Nintendo did. No following on any Nintendo system is a fair characterization of pretty much every modern third party franchise bar Sonic and Resident Evil.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

Why doesn't Nintendo fund such a game to show Capcom and EA what fools they are being? Oh, wait, they did. Fatal Frame, which sold poorly and never left Japan.

CarnageHeart

That example is the height of disingenuousness Carnage and you know it. Fatal Frame? An extremely niche series that had no following on any Nintendo console flops on the Wii and this is a surprise to anyone? Seriously? Really?

I didn't pick the series, Nintendo did. No following on any Nintendo system is a fair characterization of pretty much every modern third party franchise bar Sonic and Resident Evil.

It was an idiotic decision by Nintendo, I'm not going to get on that, I just thought the example you brought up was weak. He did say something about RE4-like titles after all. Unless Fatal Frame got some radically enhanced reboot that I don't know about.

I normally don't bite on these type of threads, but WTF it's Saturday and the 49ers didn't make the playoffs. So just this once, i'll throw in my 2 cents.

I think the number one problem is perception.

The perception that the Wii is for the "casual fan base and not the hardcore." When the fact is, that all these "hardcore games" that 99.9% of forum base users claim and categorize are actually pretty casual. Outside of these forums, no one gives a crap about casual or hardcore. Take into account that a majority of posters post on different websites and your so called hardcore crowd is actually pretty small. Johnny Joe Blow is more likely to play Call of Duty 4 or the next Halo, then say Mad World or No More Heroes. Because, they are more accessible. Add insecurities about how one looks while swinging a remote and you have an instant turn off, while they secretly wish for a port to an HD counsel.

The N64 domino effect.

Here is another problem. Ever since the N64, Nintendos loyal fan base has given the cold shoulder to any 3rd party. Ever since then everything is Metroid this and Zelda that due to the fact that the N64 was a first party monster. Nintendo systems have yet to recover from the backlash and the perception that the only thing worth buying is a Nintendo developed and published game. Because that's pretty much all they had on that system. This mindset has carried on through the GC and the Wii. When the N64 was released two things happened, those who grew up with NES moved on. They either left gaming, because they were older and no longer enjoyed gaming or they moved on to the next media storage device. The difference between a cartridge and a disci s the equivalent of the VHS and DVD. To quote one of my favorite bands:

"Times are going to change, change or step aside, well it's the thought of it that took you by surprise" - Rancid

And so the times changed..... and so did the media and all along Nintendo was to stuck in their ways to realize that time had past them bye.

So here we are again 2010 and the same &#T^*!@ topic rages on, blah, blah, blegh! But now we have numbers, links, and a history of what went wrong to back up what we spit out. Despite having some solid third party support the games are still struggling.The key is advertising, which there is none. Sure you have your pop up adds on the Internet and magazine adds but, that is only a small piece of the pie. Which is you the reader of this post. Where are the T.V. adds and the Grand Theft Auto like billboards and buss stop adds? Where is the HUGE wrap around decal on the bus driving around stuck in traffic?

Brand recognition sells. So Nintendo doesn't need to advertise. Third parties take on the same attitude and fail miserably. Left wondering why they can't reach this gens largest audience. If they took the time to pull their heads out their ass and actually put some marketing muscle behind one of their games, then maybe they would see a difference in their profit. Not advertising the Virtual Counsel is probably their biggest mistake this generation. They literally expect people to trip over their Wii-mote, fall flat on their face and hope that they somehow smash the A button with an eye or their nose and hope that they some how stumble across a gold mine.

The Wii was meant to be a machine for creative minds to expand their horizons in terms of game play. It turns out that the industry lacks creativity and is filled with me too developers and if it isn't broke, then why fix it attitude.

I own all three systems this gen and out of the three, I have more disc based games on the Wii. All but one are from third party developers. Of course I am the minority. There are no party games in my collection, just straight up awesome gaming experiences.

Change is a scary thing. It's the only thing in life that is permanent. Once you experience change there is no going back. Now you have Natal and some sort of wand for Sony. Suddenly motion controls are cool because, "hey!" Its in HD. Change with the times.

Spirit_of_87

The Wii was a way for Nintendo to significantly cut costs by essentially releasing a slightly more powerful Gamecube and hide this fact with a motion control peripheral that became the central gimmick of the console. Creativity doesn't require a motion wand to flourishand in many cases that creative little input device you venerate has actually handicapped developers precisely because the Wimote was crammed downtheir throats, forcing many otherwise solid titles to be tethered to a control scheme thatcan be just as potentially limiting as itcan beexpansive. Ifyou need proof of the shallowness of motion control, consider how sparingly many of Nintendo's ownfirst party titles utilizeit.There is nothing overtly creative or revolutionary about wiggling a controller around and there is certainly nothing about the Wiimote that facilitates the kind of creativity you claim is lacking in this industry.

However, even assuming that the motion control of the Wii really was the second coming of gaming, it's rather difficult to forge those creative titles when anchored to a system that can barely outperform a PS2 on a purely technical level. And before you waste any effort spitting out a "game play trumps graphics" rebuttal, bear in mind that this industry has and always will be propelled by graphical advancements because those advancements directly affect game play.Either way you slice it, the Wiioffers serious bottlenecks to developers and while you are free to lounge in an ivory tower and call many of these talented people uncreative, I think such as assertion is a crass and puerile generalization, especially given what is being released on the HD consoles and the PC.

I too own all three gaming consoles and to be frank, were it not for an outstanding year in 2009, I would consider theWii as mediocre as the Gamecube and the N64 in terms of software quality and diversity. Ironically, manyof those outstanding and inventive 2009 games wereall but ignored at retail, including Deadly Creatures, Mad World, etc. You may equate that to advertising expenditures or a lack thereof but in reality many of these games were advertised decently and still received no attention. I'm not claiming the developers don't share some blame in this whole mess but to foist it entirely on their shoulders is nonsensical.

2009 was an awesome year for Wii software and yet almost nobody played these amazing games. That fact alone encapsulates why so many developers are now shunning the console, and rightfully so.

[QUOTE="Michael-Smith"] C'mon, RE4Wii edition is freakin' AWESOME, why are they wasting time and money on on-rails throwbacks when they could be making RE4Wii styled games (Side story to RE5 or completely separate story with Leon please? Would sell like water in a desert!) MarcusAntonius

Uh, RE4 was a ported title, a cheapo game that only needed to have Wii controls implemented. It was an easy cash grab for Capcom that probably didn't take a whole lot of time and cost to produce. Just because a game with the Resident Evil label sold well (especially one in its fourth release)doesn't translate into the Wii demographic as being hugely supportive of M-rated games.

The point is that RE4Wii has sold very well on the Wii, considering it's a port of a last-gen game. It's a testament to how great the game is, simply because of the sweet controls on it. If Capcom made a built-for-Wii game that played like RE4Wii and was its own exclusive thing, like a side-story to RE5 or whatever, it would sell like mad. Instead, they just give us an on rails game, which is about as cool as getting socks for Christmas when you asked for a bike.Michael-Smith

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

Who will still want to gamble the investment on an original title just to see it buried by another Nintendo first party title and taking a loss? Then there's the part about the Wii hardware and its limitations, those of which have cut it off from potential multiplat releases. It's little wonder why the Wii has become a depository for shovelware. Why produce a top notch original title for the Wii when you can shovel something out and ride Nintendo's coattails?

Teufelhuhn

The problem is that if you're a core gamer, you probably have a PS3 or a 360 to begin with, so why buy a port-down? And porting up would never result in a competitive enough product on the PS3 and 360, there's not point releasing wiiHD because then you're splitting the userbase and lose the userbase advantage. Right now there's no viable solution whatsoever.

The problem is that if you're a core gamer, you probably have a PS3 or a 360 to begin with, so why buy a port-down? And porting up would never result in a competitive enough product on the PS3 and 360, there's not point releasing wiiHD because then you're splitting the userbase and lose the userbase advantage. Right now there's no viable solution whatsoever.

EvilTaru

[QUOTE="Michael-Smith"] The point is that RE4Wii has sold very well on the Wii, considering it's a port of a last-gen game. It's a testament to how great the game is, simply because of the sweet controls on it. If Capcom made a built-for-Wii game that played like RE4Wii and was its own exclusive thing, like a side-story to RE5 or whatever, it would sell like mad. Instead, they just give us an on rails game, which is about as cool as getting socks for Christmas when you asked for a bike.Teufelhuhn

If they had put the time and money they used to make the two Chronicles games into making an RE4Wii sty le game, like people were begging for, then A) They wouldn't have wasted time and money on poor selling games and B) They would have actually put something out that would have sold.

But noOOoo.... they were like "We can't port RE5 to the Wii, it would be too watered down to sell... so let's make an even MORE watered down type of game and see how that does!" Genius!

Exactly! RE4Wii, a last-gen port, sold more than their on-rails game. If that's not an indication of what the Wii gamers want, I don't know what is. I mean seriously... a last-gen game that all RE fans already owned sold more than the new game. They need to pull their heads out of their corporate think tanks and get a clue.

Michael-Smith

If they had put the time and money they used to make the two Chronicles games into making an RE4Wii sty le game, like people were begging for, then A) They wouldn't have wasted time and money on poor selling games and B) They would have actually put something out that would have sold.Michael-Smith

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]

[QUOTE="Michael-Smith"] The point is that RE4Wii has sold very well on the Wii, considering it's a port of a last-gen game. It's a testament to how great the game is, simply because of the sweet controls on it. If Capcom made a built-for-Wii game that played like RE4Wii and was its own exclusive thing, like a side-story to RE5 or whatever, it would sell like mad. Instead, they just give us an on rails game, which is about as cool as getting socks for Christmas when you asked for a bike.Michael-Smith

If they had put the time and money they used to make the two Chronicles games into making an RE4Wii sty le game, like people were begging for, then A) They wouldn't have wasted time and money on poor selling games and B) They would have actually put something out that would have sold.

But noOOoo.... they were like "We can't port RE5 to the Wii, it would be too watered down to sell... so let's make an even MORE watered down type of game and see how that does!" Genius!

The problem is that RE4Wii is not a good example of quality original content, it's a cheap portand a way forCapcom to once again milk the RE fanbase, it's basically just another example of RE fans buying basically the same game but on a different system, the chronicles games survive mainly based on the fact that they have the RE brand, it's not like there's a market for on-rail shooters, there isn't, there's a market that would consume anything RE, regardless of quality RE should be excluded from any discussion regarding quality original title.

The Wii was a way for Nintendo to significantly cut costs by essentially releasing a slightly more powerful Gamecube and hide this fact with a motion control peripheral that became the central gimmick of the console. Creativity doesn't require a motion wand to flourishand in many cases that creative little input device you venerate has actually handicapped developers precisely because the Wimote was crammed downtheir throats, forcing many otherwise solid titles to be tethered to a control scheme thatcan be just as potentially limiting as itcan beexpansive. Ifyou need proof of the shallowness of motion control, consider how sparingly many of Nintendo's ownfirst party titles utilizeit.There is nothing overtly creative or revolutionary about wiggling a controller around and there is certainly nothing about the Wiimote that facilitates the kind of creativity you claim is lacking in this industry.Grammaton-Cleric

The fact that a lot of people STILL don't get this boggles my mind.

[QUOTE="Michael-Smith"]

Exactly! RE4Wii, a last-gen port, sold more than their on-rails game. If that's not an indication of what the Wii gamers want, I don't know what is. I mean seriously... a last-gen game that all RE fans already owned sold more than the new game. They need to pull their heads out of their corporate think tanks and get a clue.

Teufelhuhn

There would be no need to justify if it continouesly sold the same amount. Didn't RE: DSC have poor sales? Had they decided to create a normal RE game, it might have sold alot better.

[QUOTE="Michael-Smith"]

If they had put the time and money they used to make the two Chronicles games into making an RE4Wii sty le game, like people were begging for, then A) They wouldn't have wasted time and money on poor selling games and B) They would have actually put something out that would have sold.Teufelhuhn

Do I have any "real" data? Nope. But if their on-rails game can't even sell more copies than their money-grab port did (which is honestly the best RE experience to date, due to the controls being so freakin' awesome), then that clearly shows their on-rails experiment to be a waste of time and money. A full fledged third person shooter, utilizing the Wii controls in the same way RE4Wii does, would sell way more copies than Chronicles... that's just common sense.

Capcom's problem is they think "Since we can't make the graphics as good as RE5, there's no way people would want it," which is ridiculous, because all they have to do is use the RE4Wii engine and polish up the models a little bit and we would eat it up, provided it was NOT an RE5 port... has to be it's own mission.

It wouldn't take 4x the money to develop, since they already have the tools ready to go. RE4 engine? Check. Wii controls? Check.