What Can Be Done To Save Survival Horror

So last time I talked about the future of survival horrror and it turned out to be a pretty good opinion based back and fourth. But this time I want to go over how this genre can be saved. In my opinion, the stuff that made survival horror can be brought down to five things, atmosphere, helplessness, puzzles, normal people not super soldiers (with the exception of S.T.A.R.S) and quite a minimal ammount of action. Instead of opening a door and shooting ten zombies why not give the feeling that something's behind it and when we open it have nothing there, similar to what Silent Hill 2 was renowned for.

The new formula for the most recent Survival Horror games has mainly been exposed to action adventure when it's not supposed to be like that at all. Much like how Resident Evil has gone from survival to run and gun. Another thing that survival horror games was once known for was abnormal story. To put it simpler we want totally messed up and out there.

But that's my opinion I wanna hear your opinion and hopefully devolopers will listen. And as i've said before, no hate please, Thanks for reading.

Adventure Elements.......

Personally I have no interest in saving Survival Horror..... but Horror without survival elements I'm all in for saving that..... and using Adventure Elements is what I would reccomend.

Actually I want the exact same 5 things you do.... only without the Helplessness......

For me games like The Evil Within, Demon's/Dark Souls, Bloodborne, and possibly Silent Hills are what will keep Survival Horror going. It's possible that Capcom may take Resident Evil back to it's roots a bit, they kind of did that with Revelations 2.

As long as they can make feeling helpless engaging, then that's all that really needs to happen. Survival horror thrives on making you feel helpless and then building you up to overcome the nightmare somehow.

@Archangel3371:

And the game suffered because of it.

If there's one series that should never go back to its Roots its President Evil.

Tis is going to sound pretty broad, though I will try to specify, but I think that level and game design are really the most essential part in making it scary for me. A great example of this kind of design can be seen in the original resident evil so good was the terrifying sense of claustrophobia that it conveyed. The locking of your camera angle and the tightness of the levels all contributed to the player never having a full awareness, and idea that made each level unnerving, even if there wasn't something behind every corner. Whats so great about this type of gameplay, and what many developers seem to have forgotten, is that it still holds up today. Though the original RE may be extremely dated, the way in which Mikami uses such simple things that we take for granted in games, such as camera control, and takes them away from us provides a truly unique experience. While there is something to be said about not making the player character be a super strong run and gun hero, the power of good design choices like tight corners and unknown threats can weaken even the strongest hero

@waffleboy22:

If you don't have to aim and shoot anything then yeah.... go for those camera angles......

the problem with Survival Horror is its a constant balancing act between what's scary and whats good game design......

For instance those camera angles will not hold up today in any game that requires you to aim from the Character's perspective..... its counter intuitive from a mechanical perspective and is more likely to feel more annoying than unnerving.... which is not something you want in any game...... except for a Souls game obviously.

@Lulu_Lulu: or maybe stop to consider what's good design for a horror game differs from any other genre

@mastermetal777:

That's what I did.

@Lulu_Lulu: and yet you continue to state that horror games are still poorly designed overall. Yeah, tooootaly makes sense

@mastermetal777:

Where did I say that ? :0

@Lulu_Lulu: playing dumb yet again

@mastermetal777:

Whats wrong with you today..... I know we never agree but I don't recall you ever calling me dumb before ? Especially when its completely uncalled for.

@Lulu_Lulu: "the problem with survival horror is its a constant balancing act between what's scary and what's good design..."

Your words, not mine. Need I say more? That, and you think survival horror shouldn't include helplessness, which is what horror thrives on.

@mastermetal777:

The problem is not what I said but with how you interpreted it.

If I though survival horror games had shitty gameplay then I would just say so.... You should know that's M.O. by now.

And Horror doesn't thrive on Helplessness..... thats what SURVIVAL Horror thrives on....unfortunately the difference is irrelevant because all people ever talk about in these games is The Atmosphere one could almost assume that thats literally the only defining characteristic of a Horror game.....

@Lulu_Lulu: atmosphere certainly helps. And survival horror is what we're talking about here.

@mastermetal777:

It does much more than just "help"..... I've seen people completely strip or award a game with The Horror label based purely on Atmosphere...... a perfect example is right here in this thread Courtesy of Archangel.

Anyway.... if we're going to talk about Survival Horror then first we should make sure everybody is on the same page about what Horror is and What Survival is...... or atleast thats what I do....... or we could have yet another thread where every other entry essentially amounts "this was/wasn't scary" .

@Lulu_Lulu: it's not even about what everyone fears personally. It's the fear of death, the anticipation of failure by death that's at the heart of horror. What drives the experience and the gameplay is that, in the game, you don't matter at all. You're but a speck of dust in a brutal nightmare that you can't wake up from until you beat the game or you turn it off. The enemies are going to complete their goal no matter what, and even if you succeed, it merely delays the inevitable, or it turns out you created the nightmare in the first place and have decided to end it before you made it worse for those caught in the crossfire.

@mastermetal777:

And dying because of camera angle is going to ruin all of that regardless of whether its caused by some mindless zombie or something that actually is scary. Or atleast it would for a norman horror enthusiast.

Edit: Death is kinda meaningless in gaming...... it just means you have to start over..... which is kinda repetitive.... and not in a fun way.

@Lulu_Lulu: what's scariest for a lot of people is often what isn't seen. We all, as humans, fear the unknown more than the actual visual threat. Horror is created by what we perceive rather than what is seen. Camera angles are a simple yet effective way to relate the unknown to players. The minute the monster is revealed, the fear becomes panic, and is when the story should start wrapping up as the protagonist tries desperately to either escape or stop the monster, whether it's a visual beast or the protagonist themself trying to overcome a psychological trauma.

@mastermetal777:

Then they're going to have to come up with something whole lot better than camera angles..... Silent Hill had its Fog to fefill that purpose.... numerous other games use Darkness. some lazy games might even resort to completely invisible enemies to achieve the same effect...... personally I'm a big fan of The Reapers from President Evil 5..... I've never encountered anything quite like it before...

And to be honest it can go either way..... some people fear the unseen and others fear the clearly visible..... neither is wrong or right but one thing thats definitely a big NO NO is aiming from camera angles not designed for aiming.

I mean it would equally be Counter Intuitive to use the Over the Shoulder Camera in a game like God Of War which doesn't require aiming and shooting like President Evil does.

No the game has some issues but they are of the technical and creative aspect not because of it going back to Resident Evil's roots.

He didn't call you dumb he said you were playing dumb. There is a difference and it is completely accurate.

Talking about falsely portraying what someone else says. I clearly stated in the other thread that atmosphere along with other aspects are why I consider these games to fit into the genre of survival horror. I also reiterated it a couple of my times. In this particular thread I made no mention of any aspect, atmosphere or otherwise. Get your facts straight.

@Archangel3371:

The level design going back to its roots was definitely a bad idea..... it would so much better if it was linear.... thats just one example..... if you want I can explain why.

being dumb and playing dumb is a distinction without a difference..... and its not accurate.... even if it was.... its something only I would know.... not you.

Yes you did mention it was atmosphere alongside other aspects.... which you didn't get into all that deeply..... ofcourse I natural assumed your inclusion of Dark Souls into the Survival Horror genre was motivated exclusively by Atmosphere if not motivated mostly by it.

@Archangel3371: now you know what I deal with lol. Just play what you like how you want. Best way to piss him off.

I agree on a Whole with the points you made TC.

But there does need to be some changes beyond that.

Survival Horror does indeed require the points you mentioned. It is also true that most modern Horror games can not even pass for horror, just to have some relatively creepy opponant does not make horror, the atmosphere does.

I think what should be done, is to readress pacing in survival horror games, there needs to be more downtime, between the outright "monster is chasing me" parts. You can not have monsters or "evil" around you constantly and let it stay scary, good points examples here might be Alien: Isolation, Dead Space, and The Evil Within.

Sadly it seems like most devs are afraid of implementing Down time, such as wandering the mansion looking for clues, and such, now there always need to fel a feeling of dread, and opressive atmosphere, but not something antagonistic. This is the part where puzzle elements would Work great if reimplemented, or any kind of activity that is not combat/chase based.

Another thing is the camera controls, I do not appriciate that you as a player would need to struggle with controls, the old RE games with the fixed camera angles, had a good deal of odd swaps of direction and such, which served more for frustration then atmpsthere, or challange.

But yeah, the first thing we would need would be to take out all that ammo that modern Survival Horror games tend to throw in, There is no way I will ever find a horror game scary when I am the most lethal being in the area, by a large margin. Why fear some eldrich horror, when I just downed 5 with a smile a minute ago? It is not horror, It might aswell have been The yearly Call of Duty at that point.

Lulu is right in a sense aswell, that it is a balancing act. You would not want to be so helpless constantly that the game devolves to a game of trail and errors, where you found the mosnter scary the first time you ried, but the 20th time? meh.

On the other hand, the player can never have enough power, to ever be considered equal to what ever haunts, the player must always be weaker, or have less resources. This does not equate to monsters needing a ton of bullets, that is just an annoyance, bullet sponges are a pain. I would prefer quite lethal weapons, but very low ammo Counts, and good controls, so you as a player would best could dictate if a swing with the wrench, or that precious bullet is worth it, or if you will try to evade in silence.

And they should try not to make the typical run of the mill story, there needs to be more creativity.

The problem would be offering good third person view controls and limiting shooting action with scarce ammo. The improvement RE4 brought to the series wasn't without a shift in tone, so I think a middle term of what worked in the classics and in modern Resident Evil games should suffice, and ironically Silent Hill was closer to accomplishing it. It used dynamic and cinematic camera angles, which you could place behind the character, and followed your tank movement very closely from a distance. You could shoot and move at the same time, though with your character locked to an enemy, and without aiming.

But I had an idea: what if the character moved in 360º with the camera following him/her automatically, and we used the right analog to make him/her face a direction independent of movement? It would be like playing Geometry Wars and Bangai-O HD with a horror scenario and a 3D environment, where the movement would be smooth, and the aiming, while not making a vertical distinction, would be faster than with tank controls. When using manual, that is, because we could have a lock-on feature.

It seems as if the up-and-coming Silent Hill game that was being developed partly by Hideo Kojima might have revitalized this genre, but due to the business feud that has arisen between Hideo and Konami, perhaps the project (as we know it) has been scrapped. Who knows?

I'm so happy to see people are still passionate about this genre. I like to see people have ideas for games aswell and to be honest, there good ones. And to get a point across, atmosphere is a major factor in this type of game because when we beat the game we look back and think holy shit was intense!. And i've said this before and i'll continue to say it, Dark Souls is not a survival horror game in my opinion because of the RPG aspect of it, not saying it's a bad game but definetly not a survival horror. Keep in mind it's my opinion so no hate please.

No it wasn't a bad idea. You may not like non-linear but that's a personal opinion and does not make it inherently bad. No I don't need or want you to explain your personal preference to me.

No it is not a distinction without a difference and yes it is accurate. It's also something I would know simply by observation. You pseudo-psycological meanderings simply reak of bullshit and nonsensicle blathering.

Of course I mention atmosphere along with other elments to which I gave no weight on how each one contributed to how I felt lent themselves to the survival horror genre. No matter you stated that I based it 'purely' on atmosphere which is a clear-cut falsehood of what I said, there's no if's, and's, or but's about misconstruing that. You can't assume that I meant exclusively atmosphere when I mentioned other elements, that simply makes no sense.

Yeah I've seen enough of his posts to generally try to avoid discussing most topics with him.

I think the upcoming virtual reality tech is going to revitalize the survival horror genre. The most important thing in a survival horror game is atmosphere and virtual reality is going to enable these games to give us an atmospheric experience that is more itense than any past survival horror games.

@kojimano1fan: even though the Souls games are primarily RPGs and nobody will dispute that, there is an argument to be made for them - and recently Bloodborne - to be considered survival horror as well.

Consider that there's always that dread of dying to a new creature, the sneak attacks, the loss of your most vital resource (souls) with each death. It might not apply to everyone, but I've seen countless people on various forums talk about the tension and nervousness they feel playing those games because death could literally come around the next corner. There's that atmosphere of tension within the series, which is reinforced by the weighty combat and the need to manage your resources effectively in order to survive the next encounter. In Demon's Souls and Dark Souls II, there are further penalties for dying (the lowering of your health bar), which introduces a new sensation of dread. Bloodborne has weird side effects introduced whenever you gain more insight, which also makes things more difficult and tense.

As I said, I consider the Souls series or Bloodborne to be great action-RPGs first and foremost. But when people include them in the survival horror genre as well, I honestly can't disagree in any way.

@kojimano1fan: Before I give my answer I want to mention, once again, why its important to understand the true issue that is plaguing the survival horror genre. If your interested in hearing what I have to say regarding the future of the survival horror genre then you can check the link listed below. Remember, scroll down to the #33 comment. That's the one I'm referring to.

Link: http://www.gamespot.com/forums/games-discussion-1000000/the-future-of-survival-horror-31958954/

With that said, let me start by giving a few examples of what you need in a survival horror game. But before that, I want to point out how truly difficult it is, from a financial standpoint, to create a high quality survival horror game or movie. And trust me, if I had the resources to do so then I would have already done both. But, the reality is that investors don't want to take an unnecessary risk. Simply put, investing into the action genre is far less risky, financially speaking, then the survival horror genre. This is why the action genre is so prevalent in our society.

But back to the initial question; what can be done to save survival horror? First and foremost, a great narrative is a step in the right direction. Now, I know that a good amount of people will say "screw that, I just want to shoot shit", but that's not going to make for a great survival horror game or movie. You see, a sound story needs to set the tone, the theme, the atmosphere of any survival horror game or film. Without a blue print to guide you then you might as well be constructing a building blind. Without a plan, without a blue print then you have no reason to be intrigued on an intellectual level.

Secondly, you'll need a cast of great characters. Personally, I cant stand walking, talking, stereotypical soldiers as characters, especially as protagonists. Now, if they were individuals and had a mind of their own and didn't make the same stupid mistakes we see all the time, then I would be fine with that. But that's what I prefer.

Thirdly, you'll need a fitting and consistent atmosphere. Does anyone remember when Milla Jovovich kick that damn zombiefied dog through a plate glass window in the first Resident Evil movie... anyone? Well, if you do remember then you may not have noticed at the time but that action scene was one of the more notable reason as to why the film had no consistent atmosphere. Horror mixed with cringe worthy dialogue, unrealistic CGI, nonsensical action and blaring techno music equals yet another mediocre movie, and trust me I'm being charitable. And on a side note, that's not the only, nor was it the last time that Paul WS. Anderson added inappropriate techno music to yet another one of his movies. But don't take my word for it, just watch the opening credits to Event Horizon, then come back here. Link located below.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT7rlT19Hds

And yes, that was supposed to be an introduction to a sci-fi horror film. Anyway, that's just another example of what not to do with a sci-fi horror film. Put the point is this... if we had the right people in a position of power, then we wouldn't be in this forum discussing this issue. Take that as you will. But, as I said before in a previous post, make sure that you support independent developers and content creators. For we are the ones that have your best interest in mind. Why? Because we, much like yourselves, are consumers and we want better products, even if that means we have to make them ourselves.

With that said, I hope this has been of so help to someone. Thanks for reading. : )

@Archangel3371: @Archangel3371:

Thats where you're wrong..... the level design may been non-linear but what good is that if every path is blocked off ? You move through it in a linear fashion collecting keys and flipping swithes and solving puzzles in a specific order...... with a heap load of backtracking...... its an absolute waste of open ended design and offers little to no choice At all. the level does eventually open up and you're free to go whichever way please..... only then theres nothing left to do..... theres literally no reason to be there anymore...... if you're going to do that then might aswell make it linear.

What would the difference be.... ? Is being dumb better or worse than playing dumb ? What would be the point ? And observe all you want..... you still wouldn't know.... you're not psychic.

You may have mentioned other elements but the only that you really needed was atmosphere wasn't it ? does it even matter..... theres nothing scary about Souls GameS anyway.

Its important to understand that a game can have survival horror elements without being a game that primarily focuses on survival horror. For example, survival horror embraces elements of action, now more so then ever. Even if you look back at some older survival horror games they still utilized action in some capacity. Whether its you and a monster battling to the death in a quick time event or a chase sequence there are elements of action in all survival horror games.

With that said, the most popular topic of conversation in this thread seems to revolve around whether or not Dark Souls, Demon Souls and other similar games should be considered survival horror games. So, I'll answer that by saying the following; elements of survival horror do exist in some of those games. I say "some" because I am not familiar with all of them. Now, does that mean that they primarily adhere to survival horror? Not necessarily, but that is heavily dependant on the game in which you refer.

Simply put, games like Dark Souls and Demon Souls have elements of survival horror. Whether or not its the primary focus of the game is the real question, and that I cannot answer due to my lack of experience with those particular games. Hopefully that was of some help to everyone here.

I just want another Alan Wake. Tired of those broken survival games or Action focused "horror" games.

@bornstrategist:

I can..... they are not Survival Horror games or Survival Games or Horror Games...... they are exactly what they play like...... Stat Focused RPGs.... the only real horror is the Framerate and numerous other flaws and the only real survival is putting up with it until you make it to the end......seven times.

@mastermetal777:

Your argument towards Dark Souls is fair. I guess it depends on how the player feels when playing it, like I feel like it's an RPG, whilst someone else might feel like it's a horror game, that's the only way I can see it. @bornstrategist I've already read the post you put on The Future Of Survival Horror post as it was my topic lol. I'm completely with you on this. The point you made about a good narrative is a good one, that's why it saddens me to find out Hideo Kojima won't be devoloping Silent Hills, he's a fantastic producer of video games especially when it comes to drama, script, and of course cutscenes (if you've played MGS you'll know that anyway).

His touch on the game could've been a key element of saving this genre. I understand the financial stand point but look at Outlast, small budget but Red Barrels made one of the most scariest game to have ever graced video games. All it takes is a good creative team and an excellent team of writers. And i've seen a few people talk about camera angles in theses game, and yes I wish games could do what Resident Evil did with the first three of the series. Fixed camera angles gave the games such a brilliant yet terrifying ambience. I'll say it again i'm so glad to see people are still passionate about this wonderful genre.

Don't forget Co-Op......

:)

@Lulu_Lulu: co-op is a cancer on horror games.

@mastermetal777:

Because..... ?

@Lulu_Lulu: it completely removes both the horror and the danger. There's no tension when you have help in a genre that's supposed to make you feel tense. It makes the games either too easy or not scary, and that's a killing blow to a horror game.

@mastermetal777:

And yet it has worked on numerous occasions.....

@Lulu_Lulu: only at turning them into poorly designed action games. It kills the horror and converts it into badly done action. It has to be either one or the other

what can be done?

um, BUY survival horror games.

@mastermetal777:

All Horror games are poorly designed action games........

Anyway just like every other design choice its not the presence of a particular feature that kills or saves horror but how it is implimented....... y'know..... like Co-Op

NO MORE ZOMBIES!! Horror encompasses so much more than zombies, monsters, and the undead. That sub-genre has been beat to death in games, movies, books. There is so much more to explore in a horror survival than just killing undead from whatever virus/apocalypse caused it. I can name 20 games just from the past 5 years that follow that general story arc. Yes, it can be done different, even well (The Last of Us) but that doesn't mean it isn't so overused at this point that it makes it a GREAT game. Just another zombie game with a few different quirks and an okay story line...

My answer: explore other types of horror!! Horror survival is falsely synonymous to zombie game to most, sadly.

@amyh7292:

YEAH !!! Like Co-Op Horror ! ;)

Kojima san was the chosen one and was gonna bring it back to the promise land.. thanks Konami . i still have hope for Resident Evil... Revalations 2 was the best RE game in years

@Flubbbs:

I almost branded that game as poorly designed...... until yesterday I found the laser targeting....... now its okay. :)

Edit: Mercenaries Mode is leaps and bounds way better than Raid Mode.