What makes for a "hard game"?

I created this thread earlier today:

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=27170791&tag=topics;title

It probably would've been more relevant on the PS3 boards or here, but I think it opened up an interesting discussion before it got locked: what qualifies a game to be called a hard game?

If you look at the thread, I argue, that hard game, challenging game, and difficult game all mean the same thing, since they are by definition synonyms and therefore interchangeable.

However, some people insisted that a hard game was not one that involved lots of strategy and patience and had a very small margin for error, but one in which you had to go through the level memorizing everything, dying over and over, then going back and doing it all over again until finally you reach the end, having the whole level memorized, and then you can win.

I disagree, like I said in the locked thread, by definition a "hard game" is an amusement or pastime that is difficult to do or accomplish (beat)". Same exact thing for a "difficult" or a "challenging" game.

I really think the twisting of words in discussions like "exclusive" or "graphics" is odd, since they are defined words, but debatable, but I think trying to change the meaning of the word "hard" to mean cheaply difficult is very strange, and not even debatable. It seems if I ever say a game is hard, someone has to say "It's not hard, it's challenging."

I'm asking you all: is there any difference to you? What makes a game hard? What makes a game challenging? Aren't they the same thing? (I don't know why I asked the last one, there really isn't but let's see what you have to say :lol: )

Well, if it is a game that has enemies (so, not tetris) then I would consider it hard if enemies were truly smart. Online PvP games are always hard, because people on those games are freakishly good. However, a puzzle game would also be difficult, assuming the puzzles are tricky enough. There is no universal standard for a hard game, it varies.

Well, if it is a game that has enemies (so, not tetris) then I would consider it hard if enemies were truly smart. Online PvP games are always hard, because people on those games are freakishly good. However, a puzzle game would also be difficult, assuming the puzzles are tricky enough. There is no universal standard for a hard game, it varies.

yx2vy

What makes a hard game... All I know is what are cheap tactics that do NOT equal a hard game:

1. Putting a set limit on items that the player can carry (say only 10 potions or whatever)

2. Having few or limited save points so the player has to redo a whole chunk of the game if they happen to lose against a boss.

3. Load times that make the game less fun to go through and make the player less patient to explore areas, defeat more monsters due to a fun combat system, etc.

4. Bosses get 6 turns for each player turn.

5. Terrible camera that makes it difficult to view the action or keep your guard up, that sort of thing

... and many more. I don't remember all of the complaints I have, but when they occur in a game, I'll remember them. Making a difficult game requires enemies to... I don't know, evade, counter-attack or whatever every time you strike, or just basically not employ any of the tactics above to make the game a hindrance and then call it "high difficulty level."

What makes a hard game... All I know is what are cheap tactics that do NOT equal a hard game:

1. Putting a set limit on items that the player can carry (say only 10 potions or whatever)

2. Having few or limited save points so the player has to redo a whole chunk of the game if they happen to lose against a boss.

3. Load times that make the game less fun to go through and make the player less patient to explore areas, defeat more monsters due to a fun combat system, etc.

4. Bosses get 6 turns for each player turn.

5. Terrible camera that makes it difficult to view the action or keep your guard up, that sort of thing

... and many more. I don't remember all of the complaints I have, but when they occur in a game, I'll remember them. Making a difficult game requires enemies to... I don't know, evade, counter-attack or whatever every time you strike, or just basically not employ any of the tactics above to make the game a hindrance and then call it "high difficulty level."

thattotally

technically, 2,4, and 5 make games harder, but in a VERY BAD WAY.

Side Scrolling Spaceship shooter games answer that question easily...

What Makes for a "hard game" is simply "Little Room for Error."

You have spaceship shooter games that involve dozens and dozens of bullets, bombs, and enemy ships
on screen that you have to avoid...because 1 touch = death. Little room for error on every single level.

Sames goes for every other type of modern video game today. How much damage you take, how quickly you take it,
and how much it takes for you to die...and how strict a time limit scheme is in place to win....all contributes to difficulty.

Metroid Prime 1 1st level involved a time limit... try beating that 1st level in Metroid Prime 1....on your first playthrough knowing nothing
of what to expect in the next room. I almost did it but had to pull it off on my 2nd attempt..cause by then I knew what to expect.

Side Scrolling Spaceship shooter games answer that question easily...

What Makes for a "hard game" is simply "Little Room for Error."

You have spaceship shooter games that involve dozens and dozens of bullets, bombs, and enemy ships
on screen that you have to avoid...because 1 touch = death. Little room for error on every single level.

Sames goes for every other type of modern video game today. How much damage you take, how quickly you take it,
and how much it takes for you to die...and how strict a time limit scheme is in place to win....all contributes to difficulty.

Metroid Prime 1 1st level involved a time limit... try beating that 1st level in Metroid Prime 1....on your first playthrough knowing nothing
of what to expect in the next room. I almost did it but had to pull it off on my 2nd attempt..cause by then I knew what to expect.

Varchild

Simply put, you are wrong. There is no standard. Take Tetris, for example. A game with little to no margin for error. People never call it hard.

Play Demon's Souls and take notes...

To me, there's two types of hard: Skill hard, where the patterns of enemies and the game itself actually make you think and act quickly under pressure (hence skill_, and then theres World at War hard, where no matter where you are enemies can detect you with the most advanced radar system known to man, can shoot through any surface with deadly skill and have unlimited resources while you're ducking behind a flower to get to cover.

To me, there's two types of hard: Skill hard, where the patterns of enemies and the game itself actually make you think and act quickly under pressure (hence skill_, and then theres World at War hard, where no matter where you are enemies can detect you with the most advanced radar system known to man, can shoot through any surface with deadly skill and have unlimited resources while you're ducking behind a flower to get to cover.

Legendaryscmt

Well, thanks a lot. Now I have to buy World At War.