Whats with all of these ultra-hard games coming out nowadays?

Ever since the success of ultra-hard games like Ninja Gaiden and Dark Souls, I have seen several other companies trying to jump on board on this ultra-hard bandwagon. I have seen several indie games advertised on Steam that boast their high difficulty (and of course, I refuse to buy them, so its their loss rather than mine). I am starting to feel concerned about this trend - I have no problems with hard games, I only have problems with games that do not have a normal or easy option. It feels like gamers are now under the impression that playing hard games makes them "hardcore" and "badass", and that anybody who dislikes hard games are "losers". However, this is pure silliness. Let me explain some things:

1) Playing hard games does NOT make you badass. It just proves you have a lot of time on your hands. How else can you get good at these games unless you sink loads of time?

2) Some people (like me) have full time jobs have busy schedules. We do not have enough time on our hands to spend 80+ hours a week trying to "git gud". I can only spend 2 hours a day maximum on games nowadays, I can't spend 10+ hours per day like back when I was a kid.

3) Women are not going to be impressed and open their legs for you just because you beat Dark Souls blindfolded

4) It is okay to make a hard game. Just provide an easy option for those of us who have lives outside of video games.

5) Having a preference for easier games does not make you a loser. As long as you are enjoying your free time, that is the only thing that matters.

Anybody else agree? Disagree? Thoughts?

Games during the NES and SNES were stupid hard sometimes and unfair. Many games do not have difficulty setting, including Super Mario Games ...

Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Devil May Cry 3, Ni ho and Super Meat Boy ... I can't remember any other difficult game for the sake of difficulty.

I'm also a grown man with a day job etc, I just play less games and take longer to get through my games.

@clefdefa: I agree that most games were unfairly hard back during NES/SNES days. I say its due to two reasons: Arcade games were still popular during those times, and arcade games are unfairly hard on purpose (to make you spend more money on credits/lives), so this had an effect on console games as well. Another reason was because the Internet was not widely available back then, so developers were not aware of how skillful their fanbase were until the Internet and forums proved their fanbase wanted easier games.

@lavamelon: Im just curious what other games you put into the 'dark souls' hard category. Which is too hard for me.

@p1p3dream: I have seen several Indie games advertised on Steam with ultra-hard difficulties. Some of the fan-made reviews on the games say things like "this game is extremely brutal, do not buy unless you like dying every two minutes, there is no easy option". I don't remember the names of all these games off the top of my head, but Salt and Sanctuary is one of them. Since the last two months I have seen 5-6 games on Steam like this, and I am sure there are several others out there which I am not aware of. Most of them are indie games, but it its successful in Indie games, its only a matter of time before it creeps into big-budget games too.

@lavamelon:

I think you are pretty right on here with your explanation, however, what the internet did for gaming is that for the first time developers were actually able to see very detailed statistics of how the user base was interacting with their game. Where gamers got stuck, where gamers were having it too easy, or exploiting things, but the thing that impacted the difficulty of games the most was the fact that developers saw that there was huge chunks of their games that were going completely unseen by players because of how difficult games were. It once again ultimately ties back to economics; developers realized that it was a financial waste to create and develop assets that only a very small elite percentage of players actually got to see. Developers are extremely passionate about their games, and many view it as an expression of themselves or art and they want as many people to see their work as possible. It was really an important step for the evolution of games beyond simplistic one dimensional skill challenges with limited appeal to games like Halo which was very carefully designed so that gamers had challenge but intelligently balanced so as to provide challenge that is satisfying and engaging enabled just about everyone to go on a grand adventure, as opposed to only a handful seeing the end boss beaten.

Yeah I think it's pretty senseless but some people feel the need to assert that they are better than others.

@lavamelon:

@lavamelon said:

@p1p3dream: I have seen several Indie games advertised on Steam with ultra-hard difficulties. Some of the fan-made reviews on the games say things like "this game is extremely brutal, do not buy unless you like dying every two minutes, there is no easy option". I don't remember the names of all these games off the top of my head, but Salt and Sanctuary is one of them. Since the last two months I have seen 5-6 games on Steam like this, and I am sure there are several others out there which I am not aware of. Most of them are indie games, but it its successful in Indie games, its only a matter of time before it creeps into big-budget games too.

Right on I get what you're saying. So my take on it? I don't think you're wrong or off base here, its definitely possible we're getting a resurgence of games that are "nintendo hard" as we use to say. ****, anyone remember Ghosts and Goblins? That game would turn just about anyone into crying little mess- and pretty much by the 2nd level. If you got to the third level, you were considered above average. Anyone who got past that ice stage, I was pretty much in awe of. OOps, I digress haha. My point was to say I think there is a logic to whats happening, and there is a reason why indie games in particular seem to be the focus. Indie developers tend to younger 30 somethings, and very passionate and enthusiastic about gaming. I mean, you have to be in order to be willing to work 15+ hour days with no days off living off of coffee and ramen, because you're also probably financially very limited. The average age of indie developers means that most of these guys grew up playing nintendo games; zelda, contra, mario, battletoads, you know wahtever, you name it- fond childhood memories that they want to try and recreate. And then the more simple and mundane reason is that indie developers are usually quite small- someimtes its just 1 guy. This automatically puts some limits on what is realistically possible to create and actually finish. You don't see many Uncharted cinematic adventure games because he'd be working on it until he was 300. So rather than attempt to make something subpar it becomes a more natural fit to create a smaller scale experience that revolves more around its clever mechanics, stylish pixel art than some epic emotional war epic romance. And having a smaller productivity ability also means they need to figure out clever ways to make games that are longer experiences, and a sure fire way to do that, is through hard challenge.

My two cents.

EDIT: To say that, for reasons I've already state previously- I really DON'T think you need to worry too much about this trend creeping into AAA games.

@lavamelon: Seems to me you're deliberately being a douche towards anyone who enjoys those two mentioned franchises. Calling out Gamers that enjoy having a challenge, challenges can be fun and doesn't need to be a bragging right. For me personally games with a bite can be thrilling *if fair*, helps stir the blood, nothing more.

And Dark Souls isn't good because it's hard, it's praised for being a solid RPG series with really good combat mechanics and level design. It just so happens to have a respectful learning curve as well. Unlike the pandering garbage you find in walking simulators and hold-button-to-win. . Sure some brag about beating Soul games, but people also brag about getting top kill count in FPS deathmatches. Same logic applies. And that egotistical mind-set would exist in some people even without Dark Souls. Some just brag about. . Well anything, just as you're bragging about

full time jobs have busy schedules

*Before I move on. May as well mention I work full-time. And yet, also enjoy these games you're criticising people for playing*

Xbox Ninja Gaiden was some thirteen years ago. . I recommend you call something out more recent to use as an example of recent trends in difficulty. The Evil Within may be a good example, (Akumu is no laughing matter).

As for the 'Indie scene' well that's developers choosing to give tribute towards Retro Arcade games. The target audience is usually nostalgia, or Retro curiosity. Not difficulty.

But on that. Assuming it's due to DkS and NG, *which I find idiotic* you should consider what Retro Arcade games are known for. Ghost N' Goblins is a Retro/ Arcade difficult game for example, more so than the mentioned two, or whatever else you feel 'set the trend'. and is clearly more an influence to these Indie games. As these Arcade Classics are originally designed to take money and little else. Hence the obtuse difficulty. And are designed around an artificial-kind of difficulty, unlike your mentioned Ninja Gaiden, which just asks one to learn the ropes. Big difference_

If anything you should ask why the trend of hand-holding/checkpoint-every-five-second games are a theme in modern times. I find them pretty insulting to be honest. It is as though some developers don't trust that consumers have the intelligence to survive more than ten seconds in 2017.

@lavamelon: Does all of it do matter in the end ?

I'm not a big fan of stupid hard game like Super Meat Boy that I did manage to finish the first two world before giving up ... But I did beat Bloodborne because I liked the setting and I understood what is so special to those who play it.

You need patience when playing those and when you play it blind you could've see something that your friend didn't which is really cool.

@lavamelon: THANK YOU for saying this. i rented dark souls and got my gamer a** handed to me. i wasn't aware of the reputation until i looked it up, suffice to say im glad i rented and didn't buy. the only truly difficult game i passed joyously was Devil May Cry 3 and it was admittedly a moment of triumph.

@BabyPulpFiction: The original release or the special edition with Vergil playable ???

In the Vergil edition the hardest difficulty was almost the normal difficulty of the original DMC3

It all depends on design. When Dark Souls came out, there were a lot of people complaining about the difficulty and wished it had an easy mode. I was pretty confused by that because I had no idea how that would work. The game was designed to be cryptic and punishing and it would be cheapened if those elements were taken away. If those elements don't interest you, then the came isn't for you.

Other games can be designed to be both easy and difficult. Platinum games are a good example of that. Their games have variable difficulties that range from so easy it pretty much plays itself, to nearly impossible. That's the type of gameplay that casts a much wider net.

It sounds like, you want to be a hardcore gamer but you just can't. Instead you just keep whining in all the recent "ultra-hard" games that came out. It's all about choices btw. There's always a Destiny 2 (which recently came out), or try some action adventures, platformers which is enjoyable for anyone. And those games are way I mean way too overrated when it comes to sales and marketing. "Dark Souls like" games can't even have that same attention but hardcore fans love the heck out of it. I'm a casual gamer myself, but that satisfaction of beating something badass in a game makes you somewhat fulfilling. I love that challenge in a game. And guys like achievement hunters want these games just to earn a platinum trophy and stuff. I'm still hoping for more of Nioh, Bloodborne, Dark Souls, etc.. These games are tough at first, but again if you get used to it you can have an OP build in no time.

And did you just say impressing girls for video games? Are you somewhat a douche? Who in the hell in the world hot chicks got impressed for beating Nameless King blind folded on 0.1 health using a fist.. Lol. I guess I'm lucky my wife is fond at me watching me beating these games. She's a gamer herself and that's why she got attracted to me in the first place. :D

First off, I agree with you 100% that there is this annoying and weird war between the "hardcore" gamers and "filthy casuals" I guess in this age of samey consoles, traditional console wars are not as exciting as they once were and gamers need to find something else to hate each other over. I was just reading the steam page for cuphead, I was looking through the forums and stumbled into this moronic thread of "hardcore" gamers talking down to the "noobs" who dared ask for an easy mode since they found the game too difficult. This line of thinking is completely ridiculous. Gaming is a hobby and everyone should have the right to enjoy games the way they want to.

However, adding an easy option is not always possible. Someone brought up salt and sanctuary(one of my favorite steam games) in a game like that they could have added an easy mode, less health for enemies, more for you etc etc and that would have made it more accessible to new players, but with a game like super meat boy there really is no way to add an easy mode. Easy mode needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis, but even though I will never touch easy mode, I totally support seeing them in games, even those that are dubbed hardcore.

Having said all that I am a big fan of these ultra hardcore games, the reason you are seeing them on steam is because there is an audience for them. I grew up playing ultra hard games like ninja gaiden, ghosts n goblins, battletoads, etc. and for me if a game is too easy it becomes boring, these ultra hard games keep my interest and the feeling of success that comes when completing particularly difficult sections is hard to match. There are tons of gamers out there like me who crave a good challenge and as mainstream games become easier gamers like me crave these hardcore games to balance it out. They may seem like a timesink to some, but the reality is that if you play a lot of hard games you get better at games like that and tend to beat them much quicker than less experienced people, so the assumption that you need tons of time to beat games like that is not necessarily true.

Well, it all depends on your perspective, and whether you want to play every game that's released or looks interesting to you. The simple fact is that the games market is so broad, with so many niches within it, that it is actually okay for some developers to release very challenging games that appeal to a particular kind of gamer without worrying about a wider audience. They're not meant for everyone, and not everyone should play them. Having said that, I'll take your others points one by one...

1) Playing hard games does NOT make you badass. It just proves you have a lot of time on your hands. How else can you get good at these games unless you sink loads of time?

Some gamers can be naturally good at challenging games, so the argument about wasting lots of time on them is not necessarily relevant for everyone. It's a bit of a generalisation to suggest everyone must spend 'X' hours on a game to become proficient enough to meet or beat the challenge.

2) Some people (like me) have full time jobs have busy schedules. We do not have enough time on our hands to spend 80+ hours a week trying to "git gud". I can only spend 2 hours a day maximum on games nowadays, I can't spend 10+ hours per day like back when I was a kid.

Again, this is an assumption that challenging games require a massive time investment to beat them. Some don't, and some players don't if they have the innate skill set required for the kind of game they're playing. Some people who play a lot of platformers, for example, are simply going to be better at platformers than someone who has little interest in them. How busy you are through work or other activities also does not preclude you from enjoying some challenging games, if you really want to play them. It may mean that they they take someone a bit longer to get through, but if you are invested in that experience and having fun, does the difficulty level matter? I can agree that personal time can be quite short when you are working and raising a family (I've done both), but you can still enjoy a game for what it is in the hours that you play it. If a game takes me twice as long to complete as the next person (and it does), does it really matter to me? No. If I only play the one game for a month to complete it, and I enjoyed the experience, then I would still consider that personal game time well spent.

3) Women are not going to be impressed and open their legs for you just because you beat Dark Souls blindfolded

Some women won't be impressed by that kind of comment, either. Also, I think anyone who watches game streaming services like Twitch can find plenty of women who can beat games like Dark Souls (or Starcraft, or <insert game here>) just fine on their own, so on the plus side you're right in that a lot of women wouldn't view it as anything special at all. I certainly don't.

4) It is okay to make a hard game. Just provide an easy option for those of us who have lives outside of video games.

Going back to my earlier point, is it really necessary, with such a wealth of games being released each month, to include an easy option for every game? Do I play every rogue-like game that comes out? No, because I don't like those kinds of games. I don't like the challenge of the Dark Souls games either so never played them, but I don't personally miss playing them because I prefer things like the Elder Scrolls series instead. It's okay for a game not to be meant for you, or to meet your own particular skill level. I can understand if you see a particular game that really appeals to you, and get psyched to play it, then discover there is no easier difficulty option which might preclude you from playing it. However, that's only happened a couple of times to me in recent years, and it seems so infrequent that it does not seem to be a huge issue for me.

5) Having a preference for easier games does not make you a loser. As long as you are enjoying your free time, that is the only thing that matters.

I wholeheartedly agree. Now that I'm middle-aged, with slower reflexes, prone to RSI and can't be bothered with more hectic games, I tend to choose easier difficulties these days just to enjoy the story, or advance the plot. I'm past the point of needing a challenge to become invested in a game, as long as the story and characters are compelling enough to engage my interest. Just play the things that make you happy, and sod everyone else.

@Gallowhand: you mentioned rsi as a reason for not getting into certain games. Have you ever tried copper infused compression gloves? I was diagnosed with carpal tunnel and gaming caused me a good deal of discomfort, I read about those gloves, thought it was a scam but they were only like 15 bucks so I figured why not. They actually help a great deal and I can game for hours with them. I know rsi and carpal tunnel have a lot in common so they may help you as well.

you sound a little like you're trying to convince yourself more than others with some of those points tbh. there's validity in what you say but it didn't really need to be said. beyond certain internet message boards where people say all kinds of shit, when is anyone ever going to call you a loser for liking easier games.

game and let game. you don't have to justify your tastes

Any game can be hard really. It just depends on how you look at it. Take Cuphead for the latest release into the "Hard" games category. Sure it can be frustrating but like Dark Souls it has the sense of fulfillment. When you've been dying a lot to one enemy then you kill it after, the sense of victory rushes in along with pride so you can say "**** yeah! I killed that lil' shit". Of course, that's just my opinion.

@pook99: Thanks for the information. I'll certainly look into that. :)

In a perfect world, every game can be played by every person, including people with disabilitys. Sadly we don't live in a perfect world. So yeah, there will be games you can't or do not want to play. Get over it. Some companies just don't care that they exclude people from their games.

Well... This abnormal difficulty level in modern games is really quite an obvious matter.

It has two reasons to appear, I think.

First, it's a natural reaction for a plenty of games which were inexcusably easy to beat (and in beginning and middle of 2000s every second game was such). So, the gamers' answer of the following decade is obvious: we're not as stupid to play such easy games. We want something harder than that. The developers, most of whom grew from the gaming community themselves, just couldn't stay away from this problem. It gone a bit too far with all that tutorials for player's each breath and step, and now it goes significantly too far in opposite direction.

Another reason comes from commercial purposes. You try the game, you fail 50 times in a row - and because of that you starting to scream about it on the Web, getting other people's attention. Someone discovers this game (whether it be Banner Saga, Betrayer or Darkest Dungeon) exactly from such posts in social networks or on the forums. And most likely he will try this game too. That's the point.

@lavamelon:

Yup, as mentioned...games have been stupid hard since birth. Nowadays, games hold your hand all the way through. Git gud!

Will they do it if you beat it with a guitar hero controller?

The original. I could never dream of passing that game on Hard or Dante Must Die it's impossible. Impossible