Why difficulty shouldn't be an obstacle

Games like Dark Souls and similar hard games are known to be for gamers that like difficult games. These gamers love the challenge and love these games. However, there are gamers that have different reasons not to either have the patience or the skill to play these games. I think that games should be open to everyone, because who is the real loser if they do? They sell more and more people do enjoy them. If people want the "hardcore" experience by playing on the hardest difficulty.

Last year when there was a rumor that Dark Souls was going to have an easier mode, players lost their cool. But why? They were not taking the hardmode out of the game. There was going to be an overall easier mode. It turned out to be false, but why do games have to be hard just for the sake of being hard? There''s no real reason for it with games being this mainstream now. There are a few games i like to play on hard, but i usually go for the easy/normal mode.

Agree/disagree?

So... Are you asking why there aren't more hard games or why games need to be hard?

No, i am saying a game shouldn't be hard just to be hard. You can still have a hard option, but make it easier for the people that want to play it on easy or whatever

IDK I think that with a game like Dark Souls, without the difficulty, you'd entirely be missing the point appeal of the games. It's all about overcoming the odds that are stacked against you and emerging victorious. Take away the difficulty and you have a very dull game.

It works with some games and not others I guess is my point.

I'm currently playing Risen 2 and this game hates your guts. Every enemy is a nightmare and to buy the skills you absolutely need to progress, you need thousands of experience points AND gold coins, and the enemies do not respawn and don't drop any money, so you can't even grind.

The difficulty definitely hampers the fun.

The difficulty in Dark Souls was never the point; the game's director said countless times that high difficulty was merely a tool for immersion, getting pulled into the world and its lore. It's used to create an ominous atmosphere and fear of the foreboding and unknown to great effect, as well as establishing the hopeless, decaying tone of the storied dark fantasy lands within. So yeah, I agree with the complaints; an easy mode in Dark Souls would pretty much ruin the experience, for the aforementioned reasons.

But why not give the opportunity to people? You're also alienating people aswell and who does it hurt if there is an "easy" mode?

In Demon's Souls and Dark Souls II there kind of is an easy mode. Normally you lose up to 50% of your max health if you die enough but there's a ring that makes you lose only 25% instead. It sounds small but makes a huge difference.

As far as who it hurts, technically no one, but I think From has a point in being so staunch in their standing with the difficulty. The game is built around the difficulty and taking it away would be like taking away guns in an FPS. I get what you're saying but in the case of the Souls games, From Software feels that putting an easy mode in would be a detriment to the gameplay as a whole and as someone who has played through Dark Souls 1 and 2 and most of Demon's Souls, I have to say that I agree with them.

The Souls games are all about learning. You learn by their rules, not your's. You start to make your own rules once you come to understand the ground level rules the game forces you to play by. IDK if that makes sense, but that's the best way I can describe it in the case of the Souls games.

With other games where the difficulty isn't as important, you're completely right. Difficulty levels don't hurt them at all. But in the particular case of the Souls games, taking away the difficulty would cripple the greatness of the games as a whole.

Hotline Miami is another good example of this, with the default difficulty being the only difficulty. The reason the game is so thrilling is the constant threat of death. You die in one hit, which means that you've gotten good when you stand at the end of a level and you're the only one left alive.

Also inb4 Lulu Lulu and how Dark Souls is a terrible game.

I kind of meant what you were saying. Just that the difficulty in Souls is very important to the overall experience (I rarely use that word, too, when describing a game). It may not have been the point but one of the major reasons to play the games is for the feeling of satisfaction; of finally overcoming a seemingly impossible obstacle. It's not the entire point, but it's a hugely important facet of the game.

I could never get into Dark Souls. Not because it's challenging, but because the clunky physics, endless farming/grinding/repetition and re-used character models were a complete turn-off for me. Generic fantasy is one of my pet-hates too. I wouldn't say Dark Souls takes skill, it requires an inordinate amount of time and patience to attain that 0.00000000001 EXP needed to overcome the next obstacle is all. Even the bosses aren't truly difficult. You simply have to die 'x' number of times to plan your route in a set way, almost in a rigid mathematical fashion. Most people's brains don't work that way, intelligence tends to be flexible and being rewarded for that is arguably one of the most appealing things about video-games in general, but this game does not acknowledge that. It's a totally foreign and restrictive approach to game design, in my opinion. The main selling point of Dark Souls is the difficulty, but they forgot one major thing - making the game fun. It bored me to tears personally. Dark Souls isn't a challenge to play, it's a challenge to put up with. For those that can then they'll probably have a great experience. That's why it's a niche game, after all. I'm just glad I'm not part of that 'niche'...

One of the things I love about the Souls series as well is how most of the deaths are never the result of an AI advantage or an unfair situation, but because of player errors such as rushing; the enemies adhere to to same rules as the player, and what seems unfair at first glance can be bypassed by looking at your surroundings and using the environment, keeping the challenge fair throughout.

@turtlethetaffer: But you could still have the experience of making it easier in there.

Did you not read my post at all? Have you played any of the Souls games?

Why should the not make a game hard to begin with. I don't see the problem with it. old school game had games where you had 3 lives and a continue to beat a whole game. Now to many games are rush in kill respawn on to next objective. Dark souls/Demon souls is not that hard if you pay attention and plan. Most gamers of this new generation don't like to plan things out so be careful just run in guns blazing or sword swinging without any thought involed. Let games be hard and let games be easy give gamers a choice. and if you don't like don't buy it simple.

A game should be hard to condition the players progress. What we've had in much of the 7th gen is popular games though while some fun, many play like solutions in search of problems. vast database of weaponry in games of the CoD ilk that perform roughly the same as its kin and arent very situational. Ubisoft or other 3rd person/rpg upgrade systems without unique enough random encounters to make you desire specific upgrades first.

Basically the scales have been tipped in AAA difficulty a bit too much due to shovelware publisher standards. core of the game has to go into creating the problem first, the solution should be up to the player to unlock or put together, rather than unload the player with so much avatar strength and loadout its a friggin costume party. If its a party FPS or 3rd person than just tell us that out the gate, otherwise things should be tense with balanced difficulty

I agree with the OP about needing games to be accessible. Although with a game like Dark Souls the higher difficulty probably attracted as many players as it repelled but that only works if it's the only game doing it. Honestly the only reason I picked it up was because I heard how hard it was and I wanted to see for myself. But you can't do it too much or the novelty wears off. On the whole games should have easy mode and be more accessible and have a broader appeal but every know and then someone can throw out a notoriously hard game and succeed with it. Within reason of course or you'll end up with the original NA release of Devil May Cry 3. Screw that game and damn it to hell.

Darks Souls is stupid enemies in small spaces with large weapons, even larger hitboxes and AoE. There's nothing magic about the game's difficulty. Patience works not because the AI is well tooled but because the AI will walk off a cliff if you let them (and frequently does), so inevitably the "strategy" is waiting until the bad guy does something stupid and punishing him.

You want well crafted difficulty in an RPG, go play Divinity.

@turtlethetaffer

Nah everybody knows that already.

Dark/Demon Souls is Actually a Fantastic game, for Masochists. :)

Its not Hard/Difficult/Challenging.... Its actually Punishing/Unforgiving/Tedious. All the things a Masochist desire, all thats missing is a Choking Leash and Hot Candle Wax.

The issue is that by balancing for normal or easy, usually hard difficulties end up being shitty because they resort to algorithmic false challenge. Instead of more enemies to deal with or more complex challenges and scenarios, it's just multipliers on health, drop rates, etc.

And usually it means that the hardest difficulties are less challenging and just more annoying, (ex...Bethesda derp)) By balancing for hard and scaling down, you keep the same number of options and the same complex challenges and scenarios, but give extra handicaps to make the game comfortable for most players.

This also gives further incentive to try hard mode other than achievement points, because players will realize there's more depth to the game than is necessary to win on the standard mode.

So check this out... In Dragon's Dogma, theres a Dragon near the Shadow Fort. I initiated combat, obviously I was underpowered so there was only one "Strategy", Battle of Attrition. And So I attack it endlessly, And kept fighting untill the sunset, then Goblins attacked me at night while I was still busy with dragon, I killed them then went back to the dragon, slowly whittling down its health one HP at a time, until the sun rose, I was still fighting the dragon, all day, then the sunset..... STILL FIGHTINGING THE DRAGON at night, and yet again goblins attacked us at night, then the Sun rose, STILL FIGHTING THIS FUCKING DRAGON !

I Would have kept going but my character was severly wounded and I was fresh out resources.... So I ran !

Enjoy the Wet Dreams.... Masochists ! :)

I don't really like hard games but I still disagree.

Except it's not. Maybe Dark Souls 2

Yes there is, it's an excellent tool for immersion; the difficulty is disciplining instead of unforgiving. As I noted in my initial post, excessive difficulty is not the point or the focus of this game.

But still, you're forgetting that you're supposed to get through a segment without saving, especially in Dark Souls 1 where you have a limited no. of healing items; it would be insane if enemies had even more punishing tracking and movesets than the ones they have already. And the cliff comment is mostly untrue, especially because most areas are grounded without many pitfalls, and those that are such as Sen's Fortress or Anor Londo, the enemies are mainly ranged, and have a good enough chance to knock you down as you do

I'm playing through it right now, but the difficulty isn't really noteworthy, at least not yet

Dark Souls is the furthest thing from "hard". It punishes impatience and cockiness.

If it were to be made "accessible" to those without the patience to keep trying, it would imbalance the multiplayer aspect. If you can't invest the time to learn the game, then it isn't worth playing. Dark Souls is one of the finest examples of balance and fairness in a game designed to be challenging (outside of the Tomb of the Giants).

I'm not sure whether it's a good or bad thing that whenever the discussion is brought up about difficulty the talking point is around Demon/Dark Souls. It's good that Dark Souls are being recognized even by those who cannot put up with the series as something that they would possibly enjoy, but it's a shame that these people can't look past a somewhat steep learning curve to see what is so amazing about the souls series (difficulty is only the tip of the iceberg).

My advice is to use a guide if you're having trouble.They're not that much of a time sink to complete. My time for my first run through each game was:
Demon's Souls ~ 24 hours.
Dark Souls ~ 35 hours.
I'm currently 30 hours into Dark Souls II and have a couple more areas to finish before completing the story.

You must have only played Dark Souls II.

all games should have multiple difficulty options that make the game harder to play for those who want it.

however, difficulty adjustments should be implemented, gasp, intelligently.

for example, some games are praised for their " high difficulty", yet, i label them "cheap", "artificial" and due to developer error. some games simply increase difficulty by making enemies punching bags.

regardless, gamers deserve games with high difficulty levels.

Adding an easy mode to Dark Souls would be an idiotic move since it's basically asking gamers to segregate themselves on behalf of the game creator.

I loved the feeling of the games, and the gameplay felt like the best in an action game I've had the pleasure of controlling. But that learning curve was too much for me. No matter how hard I tried I couldn't get past bosses, no matter how much I focused I ended up dead and having to go through areas again but with lower health.

Finally gave up when I got to a large knight boss (believe it was Tower Knight but not sure) and couldn't figure out how to damage it. Ended up dying and would have had to go through all the crap just to get to him again. So I gave up. And the only way I got there originally was using a guide to figure out how to kill earlier bosses so I didn't go crazy. And following a guide verbatim just so I could beat a game isn't my idea of fun.

So I gave up. I'd love a game with gameplay that felt like the Souls games but was more accessible to people who aren't fond of the challenge or who can't spend hours figuring it out.

If the game wasn't tedious, why would people play it? Surely not for the story, or the interesting game play. The Souls games are all about puffing out the chest and saying yeah I'm a hardcore gamer.

Please explain how it isn't fair and balanced.

There are a handful of outlier weapons that are slightly OP, but most have decent counter weapons/spells. Most PvP matches can be won with patience and skill. Even if the opponent isn't following the proper etiquette.

If you are going to disagree with me, at least have a reason why.

Dark Souls isent hard , its a game that revolves around being more punishing for mistakes.

But i dont agree in fact i am tired of developers going all carebear and doesn't allow for players to gain skill, i remember older games where you had to actually try instead of most games today where for anyone with a decent amount of gaming behind them, most games are like going to the shop for a soda.

But back in the day it wasn't by design, the game was that way because the technology was that way. As i said, you can still create harder difficulties

Some games difficulty was by design, also im not talking late 80´s gaming, more playstation 1 era and forward.

Also most difficulties today is Carebear 1-2-3 and not even hardest is that hard. Its like with I wanna be games or Super eletronic/Ring Runnen and those games, where its more a case of luck/skill and a very punshing gameplay, most say oh this is hard , no its not hard it just punishes you for your mistakes.

When it comes to real-time action titles, I prefer difficulty because you have to master the mechanics as opposed to stuff like Dark Souls where there's an enemy hiding in a corner and you would never know it so you get one-shotted and killed. Difficulty by level memorization is not enjoyable imo. Different strokes for different folks though. I'm sure some people think mechanic mastery is a lame approach.

A high punishment for mistakes, being esoteric (not just in descriptions and mechanics but narrative wise), requiring a lot of persistence, effort, and endurance are all elements to describing something as hard. The Souls series has tick marks next to all these descriptions on a check list. It's a hard game. It's a punishing game. There is a fairly steep learning curve.

The game allows exploits, workarounds, shortcuts, and other things that will lessen the blow, but these must be learnt. The developers recognize this. The community recognizes it. The game was developed to be difficult, esoteric, and requiring effort to engage the audience and to allow the community to grow together, to figure things out together.

You might not want to call Dark Souls hard; you may forget the onset of the series or may have used assistance at the onset to think otherwise, but punishing and difficulty are fairly interchangeable. And if these games are not hard then what games would you consider hard?

This isn't a negative critique of Dark Souls. I think the onset difficulty works wonderfully and not just the difficulty of the combat while rewarding the combat takes up too much of the "it's too difficult" discussion.

@The_Last_Call, "Back in the day" games were very much difficult by design. Because the technology was limited, programmers made the conscious decision to design arduous games in order to make what would be an hour long affair into a 20 hour affair.

I don't think all games need to be accessible to everyone, but as long as the core of the game isn't being compromised, I also don't mind when developers do include an easy setting to attract new fans. Mega Man 10 is a good example, because it added an easy mode, which makes sense since they're hard games, and the people that didn't know what they were getting into with Mega Man 9, were slapped around by it. Of course, putting an easy mode pissed off a lot of diehard fans, but the normal difficulty was still your typical Mega Man classic style of game, and Capcom did add a bat shit insane hard mode to balance it out and please the hardcore fans as well.

@foxhound_fox

Bloated stats, insta kills, Trial and Error, Strategic Failures and so on. Dark Souls from what I've experienced has all these things in spades.

In fact can an RPG truly be Balanced if it lets you fiddly with all the stats ? Thats one thing I never understood about Role Playing Gamers, they want balance buy they also want imbalance (stat progression)

• Bloated stats: Be more specific. To what regard?
• Insta kills: Most top-SL builds are aimed at this, yes, but you can't be invaded or co-op with someone at this level unless you are there, or near there yourself.
• Trial and error is incredibly fair. It allows you to discover at your own pace what is expected of the area and enemies within it and adapt yourself and your strategy towards it. Just because you find repeating sections annoying doesn't make it unfair or unbalanced.
• Strategic failures: Again, more specific.

You don't seem to grasp the concepts of fair and balanced if this is your only evidence in favour of your position. Dark Souls was designed to have a high learning curve. Hell, most people can't get seriously into PvP without reading the guides and wikias and learning the ins and outs of every weapon.

The only part of the game that I would even consider remotely "unfair" (and this is a huge stretch, since it can be avoided with the right equipment) is the Tomb of the Giants. If you don't have a character that can survive without a shield or talented enough to do so (the head lantern provides sufficient illumination) then you can easily get the helmet with the light on it (I forget the name now). Without any lights, this area of the game would be impossible and by definition unfair... but the game has allowances in place to overcome it (I had more trouble in the Crystal Caves than the TotG).

@Senor_Kami

I love Mechanic Mastery ! :)

@Minishdriveby

Difficulty and Punishing are most definately not interachangable infact they have nothing in common....

@foxhound_fox

1)Low Stats for you, High Stats for everybody else, those are bloated stats. Usually its just HP and Damage.

2) So whats the gap ? Are the levels segregated by large intervals or small ?

3) I knew it. We have different definition's of what fair is. Doesn't really matter though, if the cheap kills don't get you then being underpowered will. So even if you see it coming, your fate is sealed.

4) a Strategic Failure is kinda like checkmate situation. Its when you lose long before the battle is over, or in Dark Souls case, before it even begins, assigning stats into the wrong places and equiping the wrong equipment can get you killed. This goes hand in hand with Trial and Error since you'l be blind and stupid on your 1st run. You won't realise you messed up untill you actually mess up.

FYI , I grasp Fair & Balance just fine, I just don't grasp Fair and Balance Foxhound Edition. Or I do, I just don't accept it.

Dammit, I know I don't frequent these forums as often as you do, but a while back I did explain why the term 'masochist' doesn't really apply here. You even said I made a good point. Do my words mean nothing to you...?

;-)

Games that come out nowadays are easier compared to the games that came in the past . Lets take the example of tomb raider , reboot was a piece of cake , yeah we know all about the graphics and blah blah , but i think what made Tomb raider fun was its difficulty , puzzles etc etc , you had to be aware of every edge of rock you were standing on .So i wont mind some difficult new games like Dark souls , and i think their difficulty should not be nerfed.

@loafofgame

I remember..... Twas a warm summer's eve.... :)

anyway these arent even my words..... Miyazaki himself admitted that Dark Souls was masochistic in its design... I mean he made the game right.... Shouldn't that count for something ?

@marlobc

Tomb Raider was difficult for you ?

I only got into the Tomb Rader series at Tomb Raider 4 but it was never Difficult. Not even alil bit.

@Lulu_Lulu: no it was not but i am comparing it with the reboot , it fairly was

@marlobc

Well the reboot has multiple difficulty options sooooooo...... ???

1. Define how this is "unfair" or "imbalanced". This is normal for any game that relies on stats to determine difficulty. You must not like challenge at all.
2. Top Soul Level is 713. The agreed upon max for PvP is 120. You can technically beat the game at SL1. The game is based on the power of the equipment, not the level of the character. If you pay attention while levelling, you'll notice very little changes between 1 and 120, and even less after that. In fact, most stats plateau out before you hit 99.
3. There are no cheap kills in Dark Souls. It's all player error and always has been. Your inability to learn the game and play it skillfully is not the game's fault. I don't know what definition of "fair" you have, but it certainly isn't in line with a dictionary or encyclopedia.
4. As I said in point #2, stats don't change much, and the only thing that really becomes "inaccessible" if you put them into the "wrong" stats is certain weapons. But then there is the fact that if you are playing the game solely for PvE rather than PvP, you don't have a level cap, and there are enough souls in the game (not counting farming places) to get to well over 120 in a single playthrough. And then, there is the point of stats being explained in the menu directly to the player (there is a help button that explains what each thing does) and you can see the result of what the stat does before confirming it.

You are coming up with excessively petty complaints that are borderline false in some cases, probably due to your inexperience with the game. Great, you don't like it, but it isn't unfair nor is it unbalanced. Stop claiming it to be. You are wrong and are not coming up with sufficient reasons to defend your claim.

Don't waste your time. You're fighting a losing battle. There's no reasoning with Lulu on anything.