Why do people often favor FFX but hate FFXIII when they are nearly the same?

Way to cherry pick random (often very subjective) similarities between the gamesJML897

You have to compare the two to other games in the franchise fanboy- I mean sir.CommanderpeaceC

[QUOTE="CommanderpeaceC"]You have to compare the two to other games in the franchise fanboy- I mean sir.JML897

Well, personally, I thought that FFXIII was poorly written and it was pretty disappointing. It was much harder for me to become immersed than it was in FFX. I guess I just don't share your opinion about FFX, and I think that it's fairly easy for me to overlook some flaws in the game because it was overall a very good experience. These flaws just didn't bother me as much. The combat system was better in FFXIII than in FFX, though.

Well, personally, I thought that FFXIII was poorly written and it was pretty disappointing. It was much harder for me to become immersed than it was in FFX. I guess I just don't share your opinion about FFX, and I think that it's fairly easy for me to overlook some flaws in the game because it was overall a very good experience. These flaws just didn't bother me as much. The combat system was better in FFXIII than in FFX, though.

bloodling

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

Well, personally, I thought that FFXIII was poorly written and it was pretty disappointing. It was much harder for me to become immersed than it was in FFX. I guess I just don't share your opinion about FFX, and I think that it's fairly easy for me to overlook some flaws in the game because it was overall a very good experience. These flaws just didn't bother me as much. The combat system was better in FFXIII than in FFX, though.

CommanderpeaceC

What I meant to say was that I didn't share your opinion that FFX and FFXIII are "nearly the same". You are quick to point out some similarities but don't even talk about the differences.

[QUOTE="CommanderpeaceC"][QUOTE="bloodling"]

Well, personally, I thought that FFXIII was poorly written and it was pretty disappointing. It was much harder for me to become immersed than it was in FFX. I guess I just don't share your opinion about FFX, and I think that it's fairly easy for me to overlook some flaws in the game because it was overall a very good experience. These flaws just didn't bother me as much. The combat system was better in FFXIII than in FFX, though.

bloodling

What I meant to say was that I didn't share your opinion that FFX and FFXIII are "nearly the same". You are quick to point out some similarities but don't even talk about the differences.

They are the closest related ff games of them all, there are key differences but not enough without reaching far out the way.CommanderpeaceC

They certainly do have quite a bit of similarities, but the overall experience is very different to me. They both share some problems, but I felt that those problems affected FFXIII more. They also share some strong points (such as the art style). As I said, I just thought that FFX was much more immersive. I loved the story, the soundtrack was amazing, the characters didn't particularly bother me. As for FFXIII, I didn't like the story, the soundtrack was good but not great, and the characters just annoyed me.

The weak combat system in FFX didn't break the game for me, and the decent combat system in FFXIII didn't elevate the game to the level of FFX in my eyes.

Checklist for both shows the insanity: -both are severely linear games. - both have weapons/magic related items/ weapons in which most are rarely use since you stick with it can skip over to more useful items. - both battle systems are slow. - both have standout art styles. - both have contradicting and misplaced story lines with plot holes. - both have stereotypical characters - both have badly written characters getting a lot of screen time. - the story in both barely let's you go off and explore and is set. - both have the highest soundtrack views on YouTube than any other FF game. - both have random out of nowhere final bosses. - both have real time feather effects on chic ibis feathers. - both have tedious side quests that the main game actually seems to be trying to get you to forget. - cutscenes in both take up near as much as gameplay. - both have 3 person parties -both games gauges in battle move at the same speed no others do this not even x-2. And more. Half the stuff out side if paradigms complained about in XIII are in or MORE OFTEN in X What is going on with FF fans???CommanderpeaceC

Both are "games"...

-Byshop

The TC has raised some interesting points. Most people however, don't logically de construct every facet of their gaming experience, so some of the things they take issue with and call out are symptomatic of bigger problems that are harder to express. Make no mistake, the upset with FFXIII is very real...it's just hard to pin down exactly why without pointing out the symptoms (which are often common between this game and others). I'll give it a go though.

Checklist for both shows the insanity: -both are severely linear games.

FFXIII literally shuffles you down a game-y tunnel with lore spread so thin you have to look up things in the in-game encyclopaedia to understand it. FFX in contrast provides a cohesive world, with the games lore in action (people actively practising their religion, their views are clear, we know what they do in their spare time etc). Moreover we get an important reference point in FFX in that we can see and understand what the lives of ordinary people are like. FFXIII has no such context. The end result is staggeringly different. FFX's game world comes of like a world, whereas FFXIII's areas come off more like lifeless stages. The issue players have isn't with not being able to influence the outcome of the game, but with not having the power to make any choices, even pertaining to equipment or levelling or character commands. - both have weapons/magic related items/ weapons in which most are rarely use since you stick with it can skip over to more useful items. The main criticism with FFXIII wasn't the lack of customisation options, but that the lack of customisation options were only one symptomatic part of an overarching theme of simplification (to the point of taking any meaningful action out of the players hands). It went much further and deeper than simply the number of customisation issues.

- both battle systems are slow.

I don't agree with this. If anything FFXIII's battles are ahem, 'Lighting' quick. Even the longest fights in the game only take 15 minutes or so. Compare that with the laborious Dark Aeon fights in FFX. I think the issue people had with the battle system goes back to the point of the game feeling oversimplified. FFXIII painfully doles out new gameplay elements over the first half of the game, and even then it amounts to little more than controlling the tempo of the fight rather than the action itself.

- both have standout art styles.

I agree. I don't think anyone has an issue with FFXIII art style other than those who ridicule the genre as a whole. If anything I think the only reason people might voice issue with FFXIII's art style and not X's is because in X it comes across as simply an eccentric part of an otherwise good game. Whereas with XIII it is irksome because it reveals a shift in the way SE makes their games and the audience it makes them for, That is to say that many people feel the games have gone completely the way of style over substance. It might have been forgiveable back when FFX came out, but now that there is little substance to back it up it is not so easy to overlook.

- both have contradicting and misplaced story lines with plot holes. \

Sure. But in the case of FFXIII the twist in the ending completely undermines the entire story. Moreover, irrespective of the content of the stories, FFX's is more engaging simply because the characters are in situations that are easier to relate to (and in a context that is well defined).

- both have stereotypical characters

True. But FFX's characters are easier to relate to. I speculate that this is because the settings and situations in the game are easier to come to understand, and that we understand the world and rules of the world that the characters inhabit. Whereas in FFXIII we get basically no context of 'normality' against which to judge the extraordinary circumstances the characters find themselves. It's hard to appreciate that something important is happening in a situation like that.

- both have badly written characters getting a lot of screen time.

I think the bigger problem here is the pacing of the story, not the screen time. FFXIII/X have little characterisation outside of cut-scenes so I think it is far to take a comparison of characterisation through cutscene volume and distribution. In FFXIII we get a chunk of cut scenes in the first few hours of the game, helping us understand the characters a bit...after that though the game doles out these scenes at a painfully slow pace...and even then often nothing is happening. Heck, one of the most heavily designed characters (Jill), comes and goes with practically no characterisation or back story at all. She's just...kinda there... In FFX the pacing of the cutscenes is more consistent throughout the game (that and there seems to be more of them. I recall going through FFXIII and having massive stretches of fighting between short cutscenes). The party make-up is also interesting. In FFX the characters all travel as a group and interact with each other from early on. In FFXIII the beginning of the game has the characters in pairs; naturally the range of characterisation is reduced. By the time you get a full party in FFXIII the cutscenes and story have effectively dried up.

- the story in both barely let's you go off and explore and is set.

The point of exploration in FF games was never about finding secrets and unknown areas. It's a tool that helps with world building. You may not be able to go to another place to further the story, but you can make mental notes of impasses that require you to come back later, people who are sidequest givers and so on. This helps flesh the world out as you have reasons to revisit areas instead of simply walking through levels. Most would agree that the worldmaps prior to FFX gave an even better sense of world building. Either way, FFX did the whole world building thing better than XIII. Firstly because as I mentioned earlier, we have context, and secondly because the areas serve more functions than simply being a pretty backdrop (shops, sidequests, lore related). The village at the end of FFXIII is an exception of sorts because it ties into the story and characters; I think most people would agree it was one of the most memorable areas in the entire game for that reason. - both have the highest soundtrack views on YouTube than any other FF game. I think most people can agree they both have good soundtracks - both have random out of nowhere final bosses. I don't remember this being an issue. FF8 on the other hand...Although, I guess if you weren't reading the encyclopaedia in FFXIII the last boss kinda comes out of nowhere. We don't truly get idea of what the Fal Cie are and more importantly, how ordinary people in the game world respond to them. I don't think anyone was confused as to who Yu Yeven (?) was or why you were fighting him.

- both have real time feather effects on chic ibis feathers. - both have tedious side quests that the main game actually seems to be trying to get you to forget.

FFXIII only has one type of side-quest: Kill-s***. That's it. Both are arguably tedious, but FFX is asking players to stay a bit longer in a world that has already established itself as an interesting place to be....FFXIII asks players to stay large area where there is nothing to do but grind (kill stuff), or do sidequests (kill stuff). Moreover FFXIII has the audacity of asking players to stay in it's world after it's been a terrible house guest.

- cutscenes in both take up near as much as gameplay.

FFXIII has a high concentration of cutscenes near the beginning and after that there are so few the game feels downright anaemic. There was probably 2-3 hours of cutscenes in the entire game and mostly concentrated in near the beginning. FFXIII has by far few bits of dialogue than any other FF game. Even the SNES ones. What's worse is there is are virtually no NPC's in FFXIII to help flesh out the world and interact with the characters. This also led to major pacing issues in XIII as you'd spend hours at a time plodding through encounters (which you effectively had to fight, or face grinding at the end area boss anyway), at which point, if you'd been good, you'd be treated to a short cutscene that often did little to advance characterisation, or the plot. In the second half of FFXIII you have one goal: find the village. For the next twenty hours all you do is fight and when that one cutscene after the long fighting area slog and accompanying boss does roll around you don't get any deepening characterisation or plot revelations...you just inch that much closer to the goal on the horizon (the village). At no point in FFX are the characters moving unwaveringly for hours at a time with no significant plot developments. I don't think FFX even had an area where nothing happened even for 5 hours, let alone 20. - both have 3 person parties -both games gauges in battle move at the same speed no others do this not even x-2. The issue with the battle system is again, simply one part of a much bigger issue. And more. Half the stuff out side if paradigms complained about in XIII are in or MORE OFTEN in X What is going on with FF fans???CommanderpeaceC

Sorry for the terrible grammar and spelling (very tired). Will try and clean the post up later.

Because FFX has a better story and characters... (in my opinion at least)chessmaster1989

I love the story and characters of FFX, where as i didn't really like anyone from 12 and the story- i dont think I really knew what was going after a certain point. X also had an amazing soundtrack, 12 wasn't bad but paled in comparison to X. I also think that X had better combat- as far as turn based combat goes, I can't imagine what improvements you can make. I don't care for the hybrid real time/ turn based system in 12 much. Also I think 10 looked better. 12 was probably better from a technical stand point, but in 10 they used alot of pre-rendered backgroundswhich allowed them to make other stuff more detailed although this last part isn't very important.

I love the story and characters of FFX, where as i didn't really like anyone from 12 and the story- i dont think I really knew what was going after a certain point. X also had an amazing soundtrack, 12 wasn't bad but paled in comparison to X. I also think that X had better combat- as far as turn based combat goes, I can't imagine what improvements you can make. I don't care for the hybrid real time/ turn based system in 12 much. Also I think 10 looked better. 12 was probably better from a technical stand point, but in 10 they used alot of pre-rendered backgroundswhich allowed them to make other stuff more detailed although this last part isn't very important.

AsadMahdi59

13 is not bad...but the battle system is terrible for me.

I like FFX's battlesystem and throwback to the old final fantasies turn based strategy.

I don't care for either. Final Fantasy was great during its prime, but is now a thing of the past so far as I'm concerned.

Those are some vague similarities.. FFX's linearity was forgivable due to the fact that it had far more stuff to do in that game than just scaling long linear zones(that are highly forgetable in FFXIII I might add) all the while mashing the x button in a highly automated battle system aka FFXIII. It was just boring. Story weren't all that great either.. L'cie escaping psicom troops 95% of the game? That's basically all it boiled down. That and a villian with a highly stupid motive. Was it even explained why L'cie are such a threat to begin with? They don't really differ that much from humans other than the fact that they can use magic. Why the big cause for concern? Their focus? Lol. They don't even know their damn focus and I don't think they ever figure it out until the fal'cie out right tells them it.

13 is not bad...but the battle system is terrible for me.

I like FFX's battlesystem and throwback to the old final fantasies turn based strategy.

NodakJo2010

This. I actually thought the combat/ugprade system in X was decent, but in 13 I thought it was ass. There is very little strategy to switching between attack and heal paradigms every 15 seconds. Numbers fly around the screen so fast as to be essentially meaningless.

The story of X, while filled with anime/jprg archetypes, was way better than 13. There were specific characters I even liked in 13. No, not "Titus Androgynous" (get it?) but Auron was a badass and Riku was always fun. Everyone in 13 annoyed the crap out of me.

While X was pretty linear for most of the game, 13 is -more- linear. Most if the game running down single long hallways.

-Byshop

FFX has a better battle system. It is linear but it gives you the illusion that it isn't. Final Fantasy X it feels like you are travesing through a real world and on an actual journey. You swim through lakes, climb mountains, dive underwater. You walk through towns and cities that are full of people to interact with.. all sorts of cool unique set pieces that give the game variety and make things interesting. There is exposition in the story and people tell you whats going on instead of just hearing people talk random nonsense.

Final Fantasy XIII is linear but it is completely barren and hollow. You walk through just empty hallways for the whole game, its nothing like Final Fantasy X. X was linear but there was viarations to the level structure. XIII its just empty and boring. The combat is just stupid. I don't like how they make you feel like you don't have much control over the action. The autobattle is one of the worst additions to the series. I like lightning as a character but everyone else is just useless. They make you work to understand the story which isn't even good even if you do all the research needed to get wtf they are going on about. There aren't any cool setpieces or sequences like their were in X. They aren't nearly the same at all

Lack of culture and pacing within FFXIII

There was nothing interesting about the world and the game required you to read an in game journal to learn anything about it.

One has a nostalgiac factor, and the other doesn't.

I dislike FFX almost, ALMOST as much as I dislike FFVII. It's a very close race between those two as to which felates dead dogs for wine change the most.

FFX has a better battle system. It is linear but it gives you the illusion that it isn't. Final Fantasy X it feels like you are travesing through a real world and on an actual journey. You swim through lakes, climb mountains, dive underwater. You walk through towns and cities that are full of people to interact with.. all sorts of cool unique set pieces that give the game variety and make things interesting. There is exposition in the story and people tell you whats going on instead of just hearing people talk random nonsense.

Final Fantasy XIII is linear but it is completely barren and hollow. You walk through just empty hallways for the whole game, its nothing like Final Fantasy X. X was linear but there was viarations to the level structure. XIII its just empty and boring. The combat is just stupid. I don't like how they make you feel like you don't have much control over the action. The autobattle is one of the worst additions to the series. I like lightning as a character but everyone else is just useless. They make you work to understand the story which isn't even good even if you do all the research needed to get wtf they are going on about. There aren't any cool setpieces or sequences like their were in X. They aren't nearly the same at all

VendettaRed07

[QUOTE="DJ_Lae"] But I also take away points for FFX for Blitzball. What an abomination. JustPlainLucas

I have never understood the hatred for Blitzball.
Plus, unless you're a completist who needs to get all of Wakka's stuff you are required to play Blitzball for a grand total of ten minutes

Hmm TC sounds like Another48Hours, he hasn't been banned?

Both game have their share of flaws but I'd say FFXIII has a lot more of them. It also provides you absolutely no reason to care about any of its characters, or the world, or the story. And the battle system, unlike FFX at least, requires no thought or strategy whatsoever other than switching back and forth between staggering an enemy, full on damaging them, or healing. It gets boring really fast. FFX also has a pretty weak story and some bad characters (Yuna is terrible, mostly due to her awful halting voice acting), characters that don't really matter (Kimahri), plus one of the most poorly designed bad guys in Final Fantasy history. It too is linear, but not as offensively so, and there are times where you do get to explore a tiny bit of a larger city or area other than taking a small side corridor to open a chest full of crap and then going back to the corridor/cutscene/corridor design of FFXIII. I also give its battle system props as you can strategize a tiny bit with each character's specialty (Tidus attacking quicker enemies, Wakka for flying, Auron for armored, etc). But I also take away points for FFX for Blitzball. What an abomination. Still, I'd much rather play FFX than FFXIII. I'd rather have my testicles stapled than play FFXIII.DJ_Lae

[QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"][QUOTE="DJ_Lae"] But I also take away points for FFX for Blitzball. What an abomination. JML897

I have never understood the hatred for Blitzball.
Plus, unless you're a completist who needs to get all of Wakka's stuff you are required to play Blitzball for a grand total of ten minutes

[QUOTE="JML897"]

[QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"] Never mention that name again. I black out and when I come to, I see dead kittens all the place.CommanderpeaceC

I have never understood the hatred for Blitzball.
Plus, unless you're a completist who needs to get all of Wakka's stuff you are required to play Blitzball for a grand total of ten minutes

Well I know it's not perfect. My problems with blitzball are:
1. It's too easy. 8-0 wins all the time aren't very exciting.
2. Sometimes getting all of Wakka's unlockables can take hours and hours of playing blitzball.

But there seems to just be this immense hatred for blitzball on the internet and I don't really get it. It's strictly a sidequest except for that one 10-minute-long game. As far as the sidequests in FFX go, I hated the butterfly catching and the really tedious "dodge lightning 200 times in a row" sidequests much more than I hated blitzball

Checklist for both shows the insanity: -both are severely linear games. - both have weapons/magic related items/ weapons in which most are rarely use since you stick with it can skip over to more useful items. - both battle systems are slow. - both have standout art styles. - both have contradicting and misplaced story lines with plot holes. - both have stereotypical characters - both have badly written characters getting a lot of screen time. - the story in both barely let's you go off and explore and is set. - both have the highest soundtrack views on YouTube than any other FF game. - both have random out of nowhere final bosses. - both have real time feather effects on chic ibis feathers. - both have tedious side quests that the main game actually seems to be trying to get you to forget. - cutscenes in both take up near as much as gameplay. - both have 3 person parties -both games gauges in battle move at the same speed no others do this not even x-2. And more. Half the stuff out side if paradigms complained about in XIII are in or MORE OFTEN in X What is going on with FF fans???CommanderpeaceC

I think FF10 is the second best FF game after FF9 and I thought FF13 was the worst main FF game (haven't played XI, XIV, X-2 or XIII-2), so I'll give you an answer on these points.

Point 1: "Both are severely linear games." Yes, they are both very linear, but there's a difference in how they handle their linear structures. FF10 still has traditional towns and feels more organic overall (for example, the game incorporates alot of culture and lore into its linear structure; there'll be recurring NPCs that will contribute to the story and atmosphere as you conduct your pilgrimage) whereas FF13 literally feels like a bunch of corridors and there's not as much tying everything together. Plus, there is simply more setting and gameplay variety in FF10. As someone else said, you have underwater segments, you have really unique places like the Thunder Plains, etc; the FF13 world simply doesn't feel as compelling. In addition, you have way more diversions from fighting in FF10. FF10 actually has mini-games (regardless of what you might think of Blitzball, it gives the player a breather and makes it so that the game isn't just fight, fight, fight like FF13) and it has those somewhat challenging Cloister of the Trials puzzles that add enough variety. In short, FF10 has way better world building in spite of its linear structure and it does have gameplay variety, unlike FF13. Also, it's important to consider that although they are both linear, FF10 is acceptably linear, FF13 is not. It was too extreme and needed to be offset with some gameplay variety.

Point 2: "Both have weapons/magic related/items weapons in which most a rarely used since you stick with it can skip over to more useful items." Well, I didn't really think this was a problem in either. While it is true that equiptment in FF10 and FFX12 is less essential than it is in prior FF games, they do boost stats and provide protection against certain status/types of magic like any other FF game. Also, in most JRPGS, there are items that will not get alot of use due to immediately buying or finding something better. That's just the nature of the genre. Honestly, I don't think equiptment/items is even a problem in FF13, so this point doesn't really apply all that much to me.

Point 3: "Both battle system are slow." FF10's battle system is not any slower than prior FF games, expect maybe the NES-SNES games because those lacked the elaborate spells and animations and what not. FF9 is my favorite FF game and there's no way that I'd say that FF10's battle system is slower because it's not; it's actually faster. FF13 has a great battle system (tho it is flawed in some ways) and one that looks faster than 10's, but it is actually much slower because of the need to stagger enemies. It draws out battles much longer than FF10 did whereas FF10 has a standard FF battle system that is simply refined. With all due respect, I don't think this point makes sense.

Point 4: "Both have standout art styles." No argument here. Both have amazing art (like most FF games), tho I think FF10's feels more natural and makes the world feel more "lived-in."

Point 5: "Both have contradicting and misplaced storylines." Can you go into detail about the specific contradictions? That would help this conversation quite a bit. Not sure what you mean by "misplaced." Anyway, regardless of any flaws, FF10 far and away has the better story. It has stronger characters, it is presented in a clearer fashion, the conflict is more interesting and believable, and the game's religious commentary is surprisingly deep and well done whereas FF13 more often than not seems to be a case of good ideas, confusing execution. Not to mention that FF13's story falls apart during the Gran Pulse section. FF10's story is consistently good with only a few section where the pacing could have been quickened. I still think FF10 has the best JRPG story out there whereas FF13's had great potential that was never fully realized because of sloppy execution.

Point 6: "Both have stereotypical characters." The vast majority of JRPGs use archetypes as their principle characters (for that matter, so do most action movies). Really, it comes down to which games makes better use of those archetypes. I believe that FF10 makes much better use of them.

Point 7: "Both have badly written characters getting alot of screen time." This is an opinion I really don't agree with. I think all of FF10's characters were written well, even Yuna. The problem with her is not writing, it is her highly inconsistent voice acting that makes her sound like a robot. As for the other characters, the voice acting is not the best out there, but it is perfectly competent, especially considering that FFX was one of the first full-voiced JRPGs. As for FF13, I didn't really think the character were badly written either. Vanille might have been highly annoying, but annoying doesn't neccesarily mean badly written, tho her writing could be shaky and odd at times. In fact, the only character I think had noticeably bad writing was Snow because his schtik was lazy and dull. Hope had some shaky writing as well, but he also had some fairly good character development.

Point 8: "Both stories don't let you go off and explore." There is a lack of exploration in both, but as I said, FF10 has traditional towns and more to do than fight and watch cutscenes.

Point 9: "Both have the highest soundtrack views on YouTube." I'm not sure what soundtrack views have to do with either game (seems like an external factor to me), but I think most people would agree that FF10 has MUCH better soundtrack than FF13. FF13 OST is pleasant, but there is not enough memorable tracks whereas the FF10 OST is practically made of memorable tracks. There is too much ambient filler in FF13.

Point 10: "Both have random out of nowhere final bosses." I don't think is the case with either game. If you want to see a random out of nowhere final boss, look at Necron from FF9.

Point 11: "Both have real time feather effects..." Maybe it's just me, but I have no idea what you are talking about with this point.

Point 12: "Both have tedious side quests..." Regarldess of how tedious you make think both sets of sidequests are, there is a clear difference in the way that the games approach sidequests. FF13's sidequests involve the player killing monsters and that's it. FF10 has a wider range of things to do. That alone makes enjoying FF10's sidequests more a perfectly valid notion.

Point 13: "Cutscenes in both take up nearly as much gameplay." The cutscenes weren't really that long in either game, especially in comparison to games like Xenosaga or Metal Gear Solid. Again, the cutscenes are not an issue in either game. What is the issue in FF13 is that there's nothing to break up the fight, cutscene, fight pattern.

Point 14: "Both have 3 person parties." So what? So do many JRPGs. Actually, there is a vast difference in that FF10 goes the traditional route and lets you control all party members whereas you're controlling one in FF13. I don't think there's anything wrong with either approach, but that is a pretty big difference you're ignoring. Also, FF10 lets you switch characters in and out on the fly and as often as you want, which makes a 3 person party feel more like a 6 person party.

Anyway, I think I've covered all the points. In conclusion, I think your argument relies too much on totally ignoring important differences. If you give both games an in-depth look, there are actually far more differences than similarities.

The TC has raised some interesting points. Most people however, don't logically de construct every facet of their gaming experience, so some of the things they take issue with and call out are symptomatic of bigger problems that are harder to express. Make no mistake, the upset with FFXIII is very real...it's just hard to pin down exactly why without pointing out the symptoms (which are often common between this game and others). I'll give it a go though. [QUOTE="CommanderpeaceC"]Checklist for both shows the insanity: -both are severely linear games.

FFXIII literally shuffles you down a game-y tunnel with lore spread so thin you have to look up things in the in-game encyclopaedia to understand it. FFX in contrast provides a cohesive world, with the games lore in action (people actively practising their religion, their views are clear, we know what they do in their spare time etc). Moreover we get an important reference point in FFX in that we can see and understand what the lives of ordinary people are like. FFXIII has no such context. The end result is staggeringly different. FFX's game world comes of like a world, whereas FFXIII's areas come off more like lifeless stages. The issue players have isn't with not being able to influence the outcome of the game, but with not having the power to make any choices, even pertaining to equipment or levelling or character commands. - both have weapons/magic related items/ weapons in which most are rarely use since you stick with it can skip over to more useful items. The main criticism with FFXIII wasn't the lack of customisation options, but that the lack of customisation options were only one symptomatic part of an overarching theme of simplification (to the point of taking any meaningful action out of the players hands). It went much further and deeper than simply the number of customisation issues.

- both battle systems are slow.

I don't agree with this. If anything FFXIII's battles are ahem, 'Lighting' quick. Even the longest fights in the game only take 15 minutes or so. Compare that with the laborious Dark Aeon fights in FFX. I think the issue people had with the battle system goes back to the point of the game feeling oversimplified. FFXIII painfully doles out new gameplay elements over the first half of the game, and even then it amounts to little more than controlling the tempo of the fight rather than the action itself.

- both have standout art styles.

I agree. I don't think anyone has an issue with FFXIII art style other than those who ridicule the genre as a whole. If anything I think the only reason people might voice issue with FFXIII's art style and not X's is because in X it comes across as simply an eccentric part of an otherwise good game. Whereas with XIII it is irksome because it reveals a shift in the way SE makes their games and the audience it makes them for, That is to say that many people feel the games have gone completely the way of style over substance. It might have been forgiveable back when FFX came out, but now that there is little substance to back it up it is not so easy to overlook.

- both have contradicting and misplaced story lines with plot holes. \

Sure. But in the case of FFXIII the twist in the ending completely undermines the entire story. Moreover, irrespective of the content of the stories, FFX's is more engaging simply because the characters are in situations that are easier to relate to (and in a context that is well defined).

- both have stereotypical characters

True. But FFX's characters are easier to relate to. I speculate that this is because the settings and situations in the game are easier to come to understand, and that we understand the world and rules of the world that the characters inhabit. Whereas in FFXIII we get basically no context of 'normality' against which to judge the extraordinary circumstances the characters find themselves. It's hard to appreciate that something important is happening in a situation like that.

- both have badly written characters getting a lot of screen time.

I think the bigger problem here is the pacing of the story, not the screen time. FFXIII/X have little characterisation outside of cut-scenes so I think it is far to take a comparison of characterisation through cutscene volume and distribution. In FFXIII we get a chunk of cut scenes in the first few hours of the game, helping us understand the characters a bit...after that though the game doles out these scenes at a painfully slow pace...and even then often nothing is happening. Heck, one of the most heavily designed characters (Jill), comes and goes with practically no characterisation or back story at all. She's just...kinda there... In FFX the pacing of the cutscenes is more consistent throughout the game (that and there seems to be more of them. I recall going through FFXIII and having massive stretches of fighting between short cutscenes). The party make-up is also interesting. In FFX the characters all travel as a group and interact with each other from early on. In FFXIII the beginning of the game has the characters in pairs; naturally the range of characterisation is reduced. By the time you get a full party in FFXIII the cutscenes and story have effectively dried up.

- the story in both barely let's you go off and explore and is set.

The point of exploration in FF games was never about finding secrets and unknown areas. It's a tool that helps with world building. You may not be able to go to another place to further the story, but you can make mental notes of impasses that require you to come back later, people who are sidequest givers and so on. This helps flesh the world out as you have reasons to revisit areas instead of simply walking through levels. Most would agree that the worldmaps prior to FFX gave an even better sense of world building. Either way, FFX did the whole world building thing better than XIII. Firstly because as I mentioned earlier, we have context, and secondly because the areas serve more functions than simply being a pretty backdrop (shops, sidequests, lore related). The village at the end of FFXIII is an exception of sorts because it ties into the story and characters; I think most people would agree it was one of the most memorable areas in the entire game for that reason. - both have the highest soundtrack views on YouTube than any other FF game. I think most people can agree they both have good soundtracks - both have random out of nowhere final bosses. I don't remember this being an issue. FF8 on the other hand...Although, I guess if you weren't reading the encyclopaedia in FFXIII the last boss kinda comes out of nowhere. We don't truly get idea of what the Fal Cie are and more importantly, how ordinary people in the game world respond to them. I don't think anyone was confused as to who Yu Yeven (?) was or why you were fighting him.

- both have real time feather effects on chic ibis feathers. - both have tedious side quests that the main game actually seems to be trying to get you to forget.

FFXIII only has one type of side-quest: Kill-s***. That's it. Both are arguably tedious, but FFX is asking players to stay a bit longer in a world that has already established itself as an interesting place to be....FFXIII asks players to stay large area where there is nothing to do but grind (kill stuff), or do sidequests (kill stuff). Moreover FFXIII has the audacity of asking players to stay in it's world after it's been a terrible house guest.

- cutscenes in both take up near as much as gameplay.

FFXIII has a high concentration of cutscenes near the beginning and after that there are so few the game feels downright anaemic. There was probably 2-3 hours of cutscenes in the entire game and mostly concentrated in near the beginning. FFXIII has by far few bits of dialogue than any other FF game. Even the SNES ones. What's worse is there is are virtually no NPC's in FFXIII to help flesh out the world and interact with the characters. This also led to major pacing issues in XIII as you'd spend hours at a time plodding through encounters (which you effectively had to fight, or face grinding at the end area boss anyway), at which point, if you'd been good, you'd be treated to a short cutscene that often did little to advance characterisation, or the plot. In the second half of FFXIII you have one goal: find the village. For the next twenty hours all you do is fight and when that one cutscene after the long fighting area slog and accompanying boss does roll around you don't get any deepening characterisation or plot revelations...you just inch that much closer to the goal on the horizon (the village). At no point in FFX are the characters moving unwaveringly for hours at a time with no significant plot developments. I don't think FFX even had an area where nothing happened even for 5 hours, let alone 20. - both have 3 person parties -both games gauges in battle move at the same speed no others do this not even x-2. The issue with the battle system is again, simply one part of a much bigger issue. And more. Half the stuff out side if paradigms complained about in XIII are in or MORE OFTEN in X What is going on with FF fans???Articuno76

Sorry for the terrible grammar and spelling (very tired). Will try and clean the post up later.

There are a few minor things I disagree with (such as the battles in FF13 being lightning quick; I thought they were alot slower than they looked because of the need to stagger), but even in spite of that, this is an excellent analysis. Bravo.

Blitzball is easy and boring, but I found it pretty satisfying to win the first blitzball game, which is considerably harder than the others.

I guess I should explain why I prefer FFXIII's battle system. I thought there was way more strategy involved than in FFX. First of all, you can try to dodge enemies, which is nice compared to random battles.

I'm going to talk about boss fights and challenges because there's obviously very little strategy when it comes to grinding. It's not just about "switching between healing and fighting" like DJ Lae said... It made me laugh when I read that FFX has more strategy because you need to pick Wakka to attack air and Auron to attack armored foes...

In FFXIII You have 6 different paradigm sets that you need to choose before fighting (and sometimes I wish there were more, but having only 6 forces you to choose them carefully). Ravagers and commandos are very interesting since they make the stagger gauge either fill up faster or make it go down slower (sometimes you'd want 2 ravagers or 2 commandos at the same time), sometimes you need to choose between 1 medic and 2 medics, you need to choose a good moment to use saboteurs and synergists (do you want to use them when your party is attacking or when your party is healing? Do you want 2 synergists to buff your party quicker?), sentinels are essential in certain situations but they will slow down your damage. You need to worry about buffs, debuffs, healing your party, the stagger meter... You're rewarded if you finish a fight quickly, it gives you a reason to do the best you can. It was quite entertaining to try to earn 5 stars on all challenges.

That's why I vastly prefered FFXIII's combat system. I thought that the weapon crafting system was very bad, though.

Most would agree that the worldmaps prior to FFX gave an even better sense of world building.

Articuno76

I agree with everything you said in your post, except for this bit.

World maps amounted to nothing more than creating the illusion of a bigger, more compelling world compared to what was actually in it. Prior FFs were no different in formula from X (linear experiences that never deviated much, only moving from point A to point B), the only difference was giving the player a false feeling of being in an open world to explore. That's why FFX absolutely trumps the games that came before it in terms of world building because it focused on lore and characterization through interaction and good narrative in a very tight, cohesive experience while disregarding the gimmicky world map that served little purpose.

far from the same...

FF XIII has Lightning and pretty graphics. ...which makes it much more worth my time than FFX, which has neither. Tidus was instantly dislikable. On a more serious note, I'm currently about 80% into FF XIII on my first playthrough, and shock horror, I'm enjoying it. The battle system is actually really fun and gets much better after the first disc. I must say that the gameplay feels almost entirely disengaged from the plot though, while all this serious sh*t is going on in the story, you're just going through killing waves of irrelevant monsters... Oh wait, that's also the case in almost every RPG ever made. Silly me.Nismology

I've never understood why people dislike Tidus so much. He seemed like a nice guy to me. Then again, I tend to prefer upbeat friendly heroes to moody douchebags like Squall.

[QUOTE="Nismology"]FF XIII has Lightning and pretty graphics. ...which makes it much more worth my time than FFX, which has neither. Tidus was instantly dislikable. On a more serious note, I'm currently about 80% into FF XIII on my first playthrough, and shock horror, I'm enjoying it. The battle system is actually really fun and gets much better after the first disc. I must say that the gameplay feels almost entirely disengaged from the plot though, while all this serious sh*t is going on in the story, you're just going through killing waves of irrelevant monsters... Oh wait, that's also the case in almost every RPG ever made. Silly me.GreySeal9

I've never understood why people dislike Tidus so much. He seemed like a nice guy to me. Then again, I tend to prefer upbeat friendly heroes to moody douchebags like Squall.

I'd imagine a lot of people didn't like Tidus because for most of the game he was childish, selfish, and all-round corny (I still cringe whenever I experience the laughing scene in Lucca). But I feel what Square did with Tidus was better than previous protagonists. We, the players, experience the mysterious world of Spira in a similar fashion, making his perception our own; neither us or Tidus knew anything about it. So in that respect, he is a far more relatable protagonist than most. It also makes him the most realistic in that sense. A young, impressionable sports star that's transported to an unfamiliar place, and is overcome with uncertainty, desperation, and homesickness. I mean come on, I'm more than certain that Tidus acted in a way any normal person would.

Sure, it doesn't feed the pseudo-manly persona that most gamers crave, but FF games were never into that sort of thing for their main protagonists.

I don't see that laughing scene as a knock against Tidus or against Yuna as characters. In theory it was a scene that made sense because of how tense everything in their lives had been up to that point and they were just trying to do something silly to lighten the mood.

The problem was that the execution of that scene was just really bad.

I've never understood why people dislike Tidus so much. He seemed like a nice guy to me. Then again, I tend to prefer upbeat friendly heroes to moody douchebags like Squall.

GreySeal9

Tidus Androgynous? (Behold, the Shakespeare/effeminate Japanese hero pun all in one!)

Yeah, Squall was too emo right down to the haircut.

-Byshop

I agree on most parts both have terrible characters, a poor story, and take place on a terrible world. I did enjoy the combat in FFX more though, in 13 all I did was hit X/A for most of the battles when FFX came out I was more impressed at the time and I was very happy to be using all characters instead of taking three or four while the rest sat around doing nothing for the rest of the game. That's why my favorite Final Fantasy games are 4, 6, and 9.

I've never understood why people dislike Tidus so much. He seemed like a nice guy to me. Then again, I tend to prefer upbeat friendly heroes to moody douchebags like Squall.

They might be opposites but too much of either extreme is a terrible thing. Tidus certainly had enough whiney douchbag moments of his own though and while Squall got a little better as the game went on Tidus was awful throughout.

Oh boy you don't know FF or you played the games and don't paid attention?don't compare FFX with FFXIII one game have it's free roam at a certain point the other is completely deprived of exploration,free roam,quests and minigames in short FFXIII dont have the traditional gameplay that's why it is hated and brings shame for the franchise,also the story is nonsensical especially when you try to find coherence with it's sequels nothing fits together.

They may share similarities, which is not surprising as it might have been intentional. The main point of contention seems to be the way the stories are structured, and how the characters are presented in both games. The teen angst melodrama in FFX is an easier tale to digest than a critique of xenophobia in an enclosed society found in FFXIII.

Another day, another thread revival.