Why do you accept weak plots in video games?

Why do the majority of people judge the quality of plots and writing differently depending on whether they are presented in video game or movie/book form?

The game companies have caught on to this and instead of hiring professional, innovative writers they are delivering us trite, uninspiring plots and juvenile and wooden dialogue presented by pathetic voice actors.

The truth is that many gamers and reviewers are praising (or at least taking a neutral attitude towards) games with such plots and dialogue that had they been presented as books or movies would have been deemed as the worst D-class and made jokes about years later.

Yeah, I do understand that different media have different strengths and weaknesses, but nothing can excuse the shocking lack of quality in dialogue witnessed in too many games.

Why are people being satisfied with this? Is it because they feel that games should be somehow kiddish and corny?

As long as the gameplay is pretty good, I don't care if it has a week story. Look at Crackdown, terrible story, alright gameplay.Legendaryscmt

Same

As long as the gameplay is pretty good, I don't care if it has a week story. Look at Crackdown, terrible story, alright gameplay.Legendaryscmt

But my question was why not demand good gameplay and good story in the same package. Do you really not desire to be gripped and carried away by an enchanting story?

[QUOTE="Legendaryscmt"]As long as the gameplay is pretty good, I don't care if it has a week story. Look at Crackdown, terrible story, alright gameplay.Heinous-Uranus

But my question was why not demand good gameplay and good story in the same package. Do you really not desire to be gripped and carried away by an enchanting story?

because there are many games out there that have both good gameplay and good plots.

I can understand judging story differently depending on the type of game - where gameplay is the focus there's less need for a compelling story. Racing games and fighting games need very little story (and those that try only embarass themselves) where adventure games and most RPGs need the story since they're sacrificing gameplay to get the players involved in a compelling narrative.

Take Planescape Torment, which has remarkably shallow gameplay and bad combat (there I said it), but it works as a game because the story is excellent and it involves the player.

Many RPGs balance repetitive gameplay with an awful story, though. There are quite a few JRPGs with cookie cutter characters and the same 'collect X magic items to fuse a magic artifact to defeat an evil being that wants to destroy the world' plot sprinkled with the same insipid turn-based gameplay we've been seeing since the NES days. Games that try and pretend they're about the story in an excuse for all of the grinding they put you through. Those are the games that I find it amazing that people stand up for, and it's almost always the story they point at as justification for why they enjoy the genre.

I've even seen people try and convince others that Oblivion's story is brilliant, and gives you a compelling reason to slog through the repetitive combat and bad leveling system, so it's not isolated to JRPGs.

I would definitely agree with you that gamers' standards for storytelling are pretty low when compared to book readers and film buffs. But the undenying reality is that those are pure storytelling mediums, a lot of games don't need any kind of storyline to be awesome, nevermind a good one. Civilization, for example, is one of the best game series ever made - in my opinion, a storyline would completely feel out of place. It just doesn't need one.

But we should definitely be more critical of games that try to emphasize a storyline as a central component of the game. Adventure games, RPG's, even action games these days need to offer compelling storylines. There's no reason whatsoever that we should accept cookie-cutter plots and characters.

Just as a note to some people who have posted, I was talking more of adventure games and RPGs...

The complexity of a plot is irrelevant to a videogame. That's why.

A movie and a book can only present a plot so they need it. A videogame ideally guides you through a plot as how the story unfolds is much more important than the story itself.

And tbh I am think anyone saying that books or movies have plots many times better than videogames really need to take a step back and re-evaluate things. A majority of books and movie plots are also terrible. Moreoer now videogame stories are generally better told if not better outright.

The question is this: Did the TC actually look at the games industry before making this thread? Probably not seriously.

Think about it this way...why did the TC say that if videogame plots were made into movies/books they would be weak but neglected to mention the opposite would be equally true and make for a bloated experience? The TC has brought into this thread a bias that says that videogames are already below movies/books in terms of story-telling and THAT is precisely why we put up with it...not because the plots are any worse but simply because we are being told they are and can do nothing about it.

And tbh I am think anyone saying that books or movies have plots many times better than videogames really need to take a step back and re-evaluate things. A majority of books and movie plots are also terrible. Moreoer now videogame stories are generally better told if not better outright.

Articuno76

Yes but bad books and movies are laughed at. Bad games (plot/dialogue wise) are tolerated much better.

Also video game stories can never be good on the average as long as the companies are making them to simply fullfill some quota of games that need to be released. A story based video game must be born because there is a good story to be told, not because Final Fantasy needs to be released every 3 years.

[QUOTE="Articuno76"]

And tbh I am think anyone saying that books or movies have plots many times better than videogames really need to take a step back and re-evaluate things. A majority of books and movie plots are also terrible. Moreoer now videogame stories are generally better told if not better outright.

Heinous-Uranus

Yes but bad books and movies are laughed at. Bad games (plot/dialogue wise) are tolerated much better.

Also video game stories can never be good on the average as long as the companies are making them to simply fullfill some quota of games that need to be released. A story based video game must be born because there is a good story to be told, not because Final Fantasy needs to be released every 3 years.

Books and film are passive forms of entertainment; you read and watch them and that is how we interact with these mediums.

Videogames are proactive and require our input and decisions; they are an interactive medium which is why I consider the story in most games to be expendable. I skip over most cut scenes in games because I'm interested primarily in the gameplay.

When I want a quality story, I'll read a book or watch a film.

[QUOTE="Articuno76"]

And tbh I am think anyone saying that books or movies have plots many times better than videogames really need to take a step back and re-evaluate things. A majority of books and movie plots are also terrible. Moreoer now videogame stories are generally better told if not better outright.

Heinous-Uranus

Yes but bad books and movies are laughed at. Bad games (plot/dialogue wise) are tolerated much better.

Also video game stories can never be good on the average as long as the companies are making them to simply fullfill some quota of games that need to be released. A story based video game must be born because there is a good story to be told, not because Final Fantasy needs to be released every 3 years.

Really? How do you explain the fact Dean Koontz's books regularly top bestseller lists or Hollywood's most popular movies tend to be big budget sewage with lavish CG effects (Spiderman 3 springs to mind)?

Really? How do you explain the fact Dean Koontz's books regularly top bestseller lists or Hollywood's most popular movies tend to be big budget sewage with lavish CG effects (Spiderman 3 springs to mind)?

CarnageHeart

It's the mindless masses.

With games it's also the critics.

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

Really? How do you explain the fact Dean Koontz's books regularly top bestseller lists or Hollywood's most popular movies tend to be big budget sewage with lavish CG effects (Spiderman 3 springs to mind)?

Heinous-Uranus

It's the mindless masses.

With games it's also the critics.

Not really. I remember movie critics praising The Matrix Reloaded.

Also, as Grammaton pointed out, for games the gameplay is the meat, the story is just the seasoning. RE4's writing and acting are as bad as I have ever seen (and I am a big MST3K fan) but the gameplay/game design is kickbutt, so its one of my all time favorites and I've beat it at least 8 times.

Videogames are proactive and require our input and decisions; they are an interactive medium which is why I consider the story in most games to be expendable. I skip over most cut scenes in games because I'm interested primarily in the gameplay.

When I want a quality story, I'll read a book or watch a film.Grammaton-Cleric

Wow, really? I think there's an enormous potential in video games in terms of storytelling because it's interactive. Storytelling can be a part of the gameplay (although you wouldn't know it if you ask Japanese developers), there are games that manage to pull it off and the result is incredible, in my opinion.

RE4's writing and acting are as bad as I have ever seen (and I am a big MST3K fan) but the gameplay/game design is kickbutt, so its one of my all time favorites and I've beat it at least 8 times.CarnageHeart

The point is, think how awesome the game would be if it had a great story to boot, if it was something more than just a great "game".

Wow, really? I think there's an enormous potential in video games in terms of storytelling because it's interactive. Storytelling can be a part of the gameplay (although you wouldn't know it if you ask Japanese developers), there are games that manage to pull it off and the result is incredible, in my opinion.

UpInFlames

Indigo Prophecy fills that role quite well.

The point is, think how awesome the game would be if it had a great story to boot, if it was something more than just a great "game".

UpInFlames

I agree with your views.

Many people are posting here saying something along: "it's fun to play, it doesn't matter if the story sucks". But what if it was fun to play and there was a story that sucked you in - perhaps even a story built upon your decisions.

But yeah, it seems that I'm in the minority here. Quite sadly...I've always been a lover of good stories. And making really good stories interactive could offer for undreamed experiences.

Depending on the game, I may expect a good story.

Mario doesn't really need a great story, but an RPG certainly does

A good plot is essential to a novel or movie, however a plot is not neccesary at all in a game; just look at Mario, for just about every game Princess Peach is being captured and Mario has to rescue her.

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]RE4's writing and acting are as bad as I have ever seen (and I am a big MST3K fan) but the gameplay/game design is kickbutt, so its one of my all time favorites and I've beat it at least 8 times.UpInFlames

The point is, think how awesome the game would be if it had a great story to boot, if it was something more than just a great "game".

The writer was asking why gamers accepted bad writing, not if all things being equal good writing improves a game (a point I fully agree with).

I was making the point that bad writing and bad gameplay are different things, and gameplay is the criteria by which most judge games.

As long as the gameplay is pretty good, I don't care if it has a week story. Look at Crackdown, terrible story, alright gameplay.Legendaryscmt

I like Metal Gear Solid 4. But I also like Bullet Witch. One of them I expected a plot fest, the other I expected a bullet fest. I didn't want Bullet Witch to have 30 minute long cut scenes and the plot is nothing more then a purpose for why your shooting baddies in the street. Sometimes, that's all a game needs. Movies are different, if they got a crappy plot they can try and save themselves by being Arty (Reservoir Dogs anyone?)

Well partially, it has something to do with gamers' mentality but mostly, it isn't about gamers not accepting good storytelling or a decent plot in videogames. You have to be aware of the fact that a writer faces many challenges when writing a script for a videogame because he/she are binded by the game-paly in that videogame. If the game-play consists of bossfights and quests and other kind of sequences let's say a chase sequence then the writer is forced to come up with a plot that suits the situation the character in the game is going through. If you have a game with a unqiue concept for a bossfight, how will you write a story fot that bossfight? Writers have to write stories that makes it acceptable to kill that bossfight or knock it off or use any form of violence and vice versa, when you have a novel with action sequences, you have to increase the amount of action scenes in it even if the character in the actual story doesn't kill that many people just for the sake of game-play. gamingqueen

Perhaps one of the reasons that movie-tie-ins suck -- because the storyline of the movie doesn't always coincide with the conventions of video games, such as boss fights etc.

Gameplay >>> Story

If i want a story i will read a book or watch a movie.

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]Videogames are proactive and require our input and decisions; they are an interactive medium which is why I consider the story in most games to be expendable. I skip over most cut scenes in games because I'm interested primarily in the gameplay.

When I want a quality story, I'll read a book or watch a film.UpInFlames

Wow, really? I think there's an enormous potential in video games in terms of storytelling because it's interactive. Storytelling can be a part of the gameplay (although you wouldn't know it if you ask Japanese developers), there are games that manage to pull it off and the result is incredible, in my opinion.

Oh, I completely agree that the potential is there. And to be fair, there have been a few games that had incredible stories (Legacy of Kain is one prime example) but my point is that I don't generally expect stories in games to be that good, especially in comparison to novels and film.

And the quality of the narrative is rising.

Where's a copy of Ninja Gaiden 2 when I need it? Oh well....

Not every game WANTS to do a good story or have good dialogue

It is what it is........

I completely agree with the TC and UpInFlames. Although the quality of storytelling in games seems to be slowly improving, it's still a bit of a joke. If games like Half Life 2 or Halo get praised by gamers for their "incredibly deep :roll:" storylines, you know that most gamers don't really care about a truly engaging narrative. Besides, most gamers probably like action films like Armageddon or The Incredible Hulk, so most don't need a good story even in the movies they watch. Artistic or intellectual types, who care about a good story, are few and far between among the gaming ranks....

Still, there are a few excellent stories in gaming. The Longest Journey and its sequel, Dreamfall, both a very moving and imaginative narrative. KotOR has a truly surprising and organic twist, which forces you to re-evaluate the whole story up to that point. Indigo Prophecy had a great mystery story until it devolved into some Matrix/Superhero thing....

At this point in time, video games only have a definitive advantage over other mainstream forms of entertainment when it comes to action. We have mastered letting the player be totally involved in the action on the screen, but it is much more difficult to get the player involved in what happens due to the fact that there can only be so many choices. It would be impossible for a studio to write a story that truly reacts to what the player does, but the AI in FEAR fought with us in a way no movie or book ever could, reacting to whatever you did in a way that made sense. If the story could react that way, I'm betting the story could BECOME the gameplay, but that is a ways off.

I think a lot of gamers buy games to challenge themselves with completing something and not neccesarily following a narrative. Lots of my friends skip through cutscenes/dialogue if they don't need to know anymore than 'go from point A to point B'. They can get away with bad stories because even if it was good...a large portion of people wouldn't follow it anyway.

I do love the games out there that have great stories, and I play certain games wanting to engage in a story. In that case, I can often sacrifice poor gameplay for a good story. ...except Arcanum, which passed my limit. Got so far but I just couldn't take it QQ...

We have to look at in perspective.

On one hand there are games that have riveting storylines, and others that really make the game play a total misery while playing *cough* House of the Dead. Which was ACTUALLY made into a movie? I don't know how either... but alas, I digress.

Gameplay and storytelling are two sides of the same coin. Storytelling drives the reason why you are playing the game in the first place. If you have no reason to go out and kill the other guys, then you are in nothing more than a PVP match with a processor as the ref.

On the other hand if there isn't anything in the game that is actually fun about the gameplay there is no reason for a gamer to propel the story and keep pushing to get to the next level. In a good game, stories often take shape during the gameplay to keep gamers involved.

I would rather pick up a console controller, than pick up a book. I would rather walk to my PC than walk to the movie theater down the block. Why? Because I get to feel like I am apart of something bigger than just me and my boring life. Video games have the ability to get me more involved than any book or movie I have seen or read.

In a book all the reader has to do is turn the page, and keep reading. A movie, you just sit there and keep watching. In a video game you are the one in control of the game. The responsibility lies on the shoulders of both storyline and gameplay for it to be a truly good game that people will play.

[QUOTE="UpInFlames"][QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]Videogames are proactive and require our input and decisions; they are an interactive medium which is why I consider the story in most games to be expendable. I skip over most cut scenes in games because I'm interested primarily in the gameplay.

When I want a quality story, I'll read a book or watch a film.Grammaton-Cleric

Wow, really? I think there's an enormous potential in video games in terms of storytelling becauseit's interactive. Storytelling can be a part of the gameplay (although you wouldn't know it if you ask Japanese developers), there are games that manage to pull it off and the result is incredible, in my opinion.

Oh, I completely agree that the potential is there. And to be fair, there have been a few games that had incredible stories (Legacy of Kain is one prime example) but my point is that I don't generally expect stories in games to be that good, especially in comparison to novels and film.

And the quality of the narrative is rising.

I think the proof of the rising potential in storytelling is presented exponentially in Lost Odyssey. You get many facets of the world delivered to you in multiple mediums -- cut-scenes, short stories and in-game interaction. Compared to film and books games are a ways off but I think games have a harder road to delivering stories than the other mediums because of the many ways you can present a story.

It's a delicate balance I think, to say the least, considering the developers have to interpret the writing through polygons, effects, voice work, gameplay and more. I would almost venture to say that delivering a story through a video game while staying true to the medium is harder than making an epic movie or a best-seller book. Of course, I will confess my experience with writing a book or making a movie are minimal at best.

The way I see it, the game developers have more avenues and possibilities in presenting a story than the other mediums and I think that could possibly work against them. Then again, I could just be overthinking the entire thing.

I think once games reach the point of being photorealistic, you will start to see a ton more developers getting into good writing and stories. Its just the natural progression. Look at games 20 years ago and look at games now. It was hard for anyone to take a story seriously with a bunch of pixels on the screen for a character, but now that games are closer to being realistic, you see more stories actually showing up. Most of the writing still does suck though. Badly. Anyone saying that the writing is equally bad in most movies is out of their mind. You can't seriosuly play a popular game like far cry and then watch something like spiderman 3 and say that the writing was just as bad. Even if you don't like spiderman you have to admit that writing wise it is about 10 times as good as the garbage in your average game.

Developers are mostly focused on experimenting with games right now. Think of games now as what movies were like in the 20's and 30's before they used sound. Until we get to the point where games are as visually advanced as they can be (soon hopefully) developers will be more interested in selling the coolest kinds of weapons or the newest graphics rather then telling an interesting story.

For the people saying that games dont need story, id have to disagree. Although some games dont. For example, fighting or racing games dont really need a story, as long as theytre really well designed and the gameplays great. Something like mario is a good example of a game that has a story but does not really need a good one. The reason for this is that in every mario game, the story only serves as a device to move you through different levels and introduce differenet characters. This works well in these games because Nintendo never actually trys to make the story good (it's practically the same every time), they keep it as bare minimum as possible and just focus on making incredible gameplay.

However, other games do actually try to have stories. I mentioned far cry. They use cutscenes and tons of different voice overs, etc which are pretty dialogue heavy, but the writing is so unbelivably bad that it just dosent work. And its these games that the topic is talking about, games that actually try to have a story. In these games, youre absolutely right, the writing is terrible, and i hope that changes.

[QUOTE="UpInFlames"] Wow, really? I think there's an enormous potential in video games in terms of storytelling because it's interactive. Storytelling can be a part of the gameplay (although you wouldn't know it if you ask Japanese developers), there are games that manage to pull it off and the result is incredible, in my opinion.

edgewalker16

Indigo Prophecy fills that role quite well.

I don't think playing simon says while watching a movie qualifies as "quite well." The choose-your-answer conversation bits where you had to time your responses added to realism, but I found myself going into cutscene watching mode, putting the controlller down to do other things while listening to the dialogue and forgetting they might ask me to respond. I'd often miss the first respoonse completely. Just goes to show how ingrained crappy in-game storytelling tools like passive cutscenes are our brains.

[QUOTE="Legendaryscmt"]As long as the gameplay is pretty good, I don't care if it has a week story. Look at Crackdown, terrible story, alright gameplay.Heinous-Uranus

But my question was why not demand good gameplay and good story in the same package. Do you really not desire to be gripped and carried away by an enchanting story?

I believe what they're expressing is that they believe that the progress that has been made is exemplary. Most developers do not have the operating budget to hire, purchase, or augment a studio which incorporates accomplished voice-actors, writers, editors, etc. along with programmers and designers. Especially when these weren't even factors little more than 10 years ago (outside of specific genres obviously). Like you said, every form of media has its strengths and weaknesses, and as time has progressed, and continues to progress, this weakness in narrative development and presentation is being addressed, but said progress is inevitably gradual. Likewise, demographics are strong points of reference for developers. In truth, your average gamer will NEVER read Anna Karenina, The Castle, The Idiot, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, or As I Lay Dying (10 points for anyone who can name all the authors). Take Metal Gear for example. While it does have its narrative flaws, it is widely recognized as one of the most cinematic franchises, and it continues to under-sell as compared to lowest common denominator competition. From their financial perspective, what is the point of alienating a large percentage of their possible consumers? Another issue of concern for developers is subject matter. Take another franchise as an example: Xenogears/Xenosaga. One of the games is actually subtitled Thus Spoke Zaruthusta. How many Christians (devout or otherwise) do you think are going to overlook the subject matter in such a game, regardless of the gameplay?

Many people have already stated that for most of us, while an accomplished narrative is preferable, gameplay is of far greater concern. It's the unavoidable consequence of an interactive media. The demographic's taste and intent are of great concern. Most people aren't even playing video games that warrant a plot, and many are more focused on completing tasks or gaining gamerscore points than enjoying an engrossing plot. Like one of the mods said, the medium offers so many opportunities in realizing a new form of narrative exposition that it will continue to progress, exponentially so if the industry continues to grow (and thus operating budgets increase).

I also think you're making too much of a generalization. All forms of media in the consumer market are represented by mediocre products which tend to sell millions of units. Film, music, video games, and pop-fiction are all in the same boat, relatively speaking. Sure, the dialogue in Spider Man 3 or Secrethood of the whatever are "better" than in Halo or Half-Life, but they're still crap. Many blockbuster films are narratively subpar to some of the more accomplished games (Bioshock, Metal Gear, SNATCHER). In truth, most of the "amazing" films that get produced are critically lauded - and publicly ignored.

Likewise, the implementation of narrative in a video game can be challenging when you consider the relationship between plot development and gameplay development, but someone with a Persona avatar (I think) already addressed this.

We should demand a marriage of the two...with patience. Sorry for the essay, but this has always been a topic of concern for me.

In answering the original question; Games can survive and make money with crappy storylines (Examples include almost every Japanese game ever)

but games cannot survive if they have terrible gameplay. (Look at Advent Rising, Story written by the scifi greats of our time. it failed miserably, why? crappy gameplay.)

However, this is another subjective subject. Opinions are fickle things.

[QUOTE="UpInFlames"] Wow, really? I think there's an enormous potential in video games in terms of storytelling because it's interactive. Storytelling can be a part of the gameplay (although you wouldn't know it if you ask Japanese developers), there are games that manage to pull it off and the result is incredible, in my opinion.

edgewalker16

Indigo Prophecy fills that role quite well.

Deus Ex fills that role 1000x better.

In action games, a weak plot is fine with me. Aslng as it tie's the action together nicely, I'm fine with it. In a adventure game? It is embarrasing. I would never want to play a adventure game with weak plot, wooden dialogue, uninteresting characters ect: Because the plot, characters and dialogue is what makes adventure games fun for me. If those are no good, I'm basically pointlessly running around solving puzles. :P

So yeah, it depends on the type of game.