You know what's great about Half-Life: Ep. 1?

It actually offers some more insight into Gordon's character. I've been replaying all the half-life games and noticed how Alyx talks about all the things Gordon did. At one point she talks about how Kleiner said that Gordon and Barney would always play around in the vents to see who could get into the labs faster without keys. It goes to show that Gordon isn't just some boring, whimpy, theoretical physicist. He was actually a pretty mischivous guy.

I think Episode 1 is pretty underrated for that reason.

I think half-life is a pretty cool guy. eh climbs through vnets and doesn't afraid of anything.

Hmm, I'm not sure I would agree. Gordon Freeman is nothing but a shell meant to be filled in by the player. This was a deliberate design decision. The whole point of Half-Life (and one of its biggest successes) is that you are Gordon Freeman. That's why he doesn't talk, that's why there's virtually no information about him and why Half-Life doesn't feature any cutscenes. What Valve did was total immersion.

The best thing about Episode One was Alyx. The whole episode was designed around you and Alyx making your escape from City 17 together. Not only on the gameplay level, but also on an emotional level. That's another thing that's unique about Half-Life...the reason to fight is just as important as the struggle itself.

Hmm, I'm not sure I would agree. Gordon Freeman is nothing but a shell meant to be filled in by the player. This was a deliberate design decision. The whole point of Half-Life (and one of its biggest successes) is that you are Gordon Freeman. That's why he doesn't talk, that's why there's virtually no information about him and why Half-Life doesn't feature any cutscenes. What Valve did was total immersion.

UpInFlames

I already know this. It's still nice to see that they actually try to slide a little more information about Gordon's background into the game. I actually found Alyx more aggravating than interesting. If she didn't stand in my way every time I wanted to flee from an explosive barrel or grenade, I probably would have liked her more.

What's even worse is the dumb **** complains if you shine the flashlight at her or you shoot her >.> lol i mean seriously...it's only a bullet =D But yea this game does make gordon seem less mysterious... In the very first half life he just seemed like yet another expendable employee with a little bravery and a shotgun....ode1234

I always thought that's what made him so cool was he was just a normal scientist that owns aliens.

I already know this. It's still nice to see that they actually try to slide a little more information about Gordon's background into the game. I actually found Alyx more aggravating than interesting. If she didn't stand in my way every time I wanted to flee from an explosive barrel or grenade, I probably would have liked her more.Raikoh_

Really? The NPC's in Half-Life 2 got in my way regularly, but I thought Alyx (in Episode One) was one of the best escort NPC's out there and I generally HATE escort NPC's period. She always kept a healthy distance, even if I did bump into her she'd move right away. More importantly, I never had to babysit her, I did my own thing and she'd hold her own. It doesn't hurt that she's pure awesome, either. :)

Anyway, Gordon isn't really important to me at all considering Valve's design philosophy concerning the main character/player relationship. Honestly, I barely even consider him a character at all.

I really hope that in Episode 3, they don't have such a prolonged exposure to the antlions. Just started my play through of episode 2 again and I'm sick of them.

She is invincible therefore its not really an escort mission. Its just a cinematic aspect of the game that has no real impact on the gameplay. Episode 1 was good but easily the weakest of the three HL2 segments.dvader654

I didn't mean an escort mission, I just meant an NPC that follows you on your way. Games that pull this off well are not common. In Gears of War, for example, you had a buddy who was a complete moron. A boiled egg would survive longer in combat than Dom and the egg surely wouldn't come up with such inventive ways of getting itself killed. It was annoying and stupid. Alyx was your peer as she should be. If you can survive, why shouldn't she?

Also, if you want to dismiss cinematic/atmospheric elements as irrelevant, that's your prerogative. Alyx's presence might not have had an impact of the gameplay mechanics, but it definitely had an impact on the gameplay experience.

I think half-life is a pretty cool guy. eh climbs through vnets and doesn't afraid of anything.

XaosII

I'm really don't care enough about Gordon Freeman to want any more insight into his character. As said before, he's a shell.

She is invincible, there fore she is not involved in any way. In Gears you have to watch the health of your teamates, they are involved in the gameplay, Alyx is not that is my point. If you make an NPC invincible they are just there for show, no AI is needed, obviously she wont get in your way cause nothing can happen to her.

dvader654

She is invincible, there fore she is not involved in any way. In Gears you have to watch the health of your teamates, they are involved in the gameplay, Alyx is not that is my point. If you make an NPC invincible they are just there for show, no AI is needed, obviously she wont get in your way cause nothing can happen to her.dvader654

Dude, she's more involved in a single minute than Dom is throughout the entire game. She's a competent partner that actually kills enemies, she provides backup and her general awesomeness. She has more AI programming than all Gears NPC's (both friendly and enemy) put together. You cannot watch out for Dom because it's pointless, he will die repeatedly and there's nothing you can do about it. You can just leave him by the wayside dying, he means nothing and he contributes nothing. He's an annoying crutch and an idiot of a character. He doesn't get in your way because he's always DEAD.

Seriously, I cannot grasp this concept of idiotic AI that dies constantly = involving gameplay. If you're playing 4-player co-op, who is involved more - the two idiot guys that keep dying or the guy that's actually on your level and helps out?

She is invincible therefore its not really an escort mission.dvader654

Alyx is NOT invincible.

She's certainly the best co-operative NPC I've ever seen in a game. She rarely gets in the way, she gives you useful information, she doesn't get annoying, she doesn't get lost... and like all the characters in HL2, she's just an awesome character.

Episode One is a good game, but is the weakest of the Half-Life games so far.

[QUOTE="XaosII"]

I think half-life is a pretty cool guy. eh climbs through vnets and doesn't afraid of anything.

DoMiNiC147

Type into google "i think halo is a pretty cool guy".

I didn't know that she could die, if she can then I got nothing. I never paid attention to her once in Episode 1 and she never showed any signs of dying so I assumed she was invincible, I didn't need to focus on her at all.

My point is say you do have an invincible partner on screen, like say Elena in Uncharted. Obviously she will not be frustrating cause she will never die, the player never needs to pay any attention to her. What she does is irrelevant, its part of the games script. If Elena takes damage then the AI better be good enough to stay alive, to know when to fight, to know when to come for aid, all sorts of changes need to be made so that the charater knows to stay alive and so the player is involved in the care of the partner. If she did take damage that same character that you would call excellent AIwould now be dying. Just making a charater invincible makes for a really cheap trick and I dont concider that good AI cause it doesn't need any, the character will live regardless of what it does.dvader654

I don't want to be involved in the care of the partner, that makes it an escort mission. Escort missions suck. Always. In every game. Why? Because the AI is braindead and weak. Just because a character is as strong as you are (or even invincible) does not mean it isn't well-programmed. Quite the contrary, Alyx is one of the best (if not the absolute best) co-op AI characters out there. For some reason, you seem to be equating vulnerability with AI programming when in reality one has nothing to do with the other. AI programming is the level of AI complexity, the actions it can do etc. Vulnerability is a simple difficulty setting.

Right she is programed to do all that. Her giving you useful information is part of the games script, its not AI. Shes never supposed to get lost cause in game she is basically your guide, she is programed to know where to go, she is part of the cinematic aspect of the game. Its not the same as a co-op AI partner. She is a programed NPC to do what the game wants her to do, its not the same as an AI partner taking the place of what is supposed to be a human partner that you the player has some control over.dvader654

Some of her actions are scripted, but I doubt that her trajectory through the entire game is scripted. Even so, I think you are still undermining Valve's achievement in that area. The vast majority of NPC's are useless, get in the way or get lost - even during scripted events. Alyx doesn't do that. That's not an accident nor a miracle, but hard work and good programming. At the end of the day, Alyx kills enemies, doesn't get herself killed like an idiot, doesn't get in the way, doesn't get lost (you said that she isn't "supposed" to get lost as if any other NPC's are :lol: ) - that's great AI, that's what all co-op NPC's should be like. But if you'd rather have Gears of War advanced AI instead...be my guest. :wink:

[QUOTE="dvader654"]Right she is programed to do all that. Her giving you useful information is part of the games script, its not AI. Shes never supposed to get lost cause in game she is basically your guide, she is programed to know where to go, she is part of the cinematic aspect of the game. Its not the same as a co-op AI partner. She is a programed NPC to do what the game wants her to do, its not the same as an AI partner taking the place of what is supposed to be a human partner that you the player has some control over.UpInFlames

Some of her actions are scripted, but I doubt that her trajectory through the entire game is scripted. Even so, I think you are still undermining Valve's achievement in that area. The vast majority of NPC's are useless, get in the way or get lost - even during scripted events. Alyx doesn't do that. That's not an accident nor a miracle, but hard work and good programming. At the end of the day, Alyx kills enemies, doesn't get herself killed like an idiot, doesn't get in the way, doesn't get lost (you said that she isn't "supposed" to get lost as if any other NPC's are :lol: ) - that's great AI, that's what all co-op NPC's should be like. But if you'd rather have Gears of War advanced AI instead...be my guest. :wink:

exactly

Take RE5 for instance, Capcom had to create an AI that has to take the place of a human player. This AI partner must know when to fight, must know how much ammo to use cause the AI ammo is also the players ammo. It must know when to heal the player and vise versa know when to get healed itself. It must respond to the commands of the player. It must know when to share ammo it doesn't need with the player. It needs to know which enemy to attack which changes depending on who the player is shooting at. It needs to adjust to whatever weapon the players determines to give the AI partner. It needs to do this extremely well cause both characters share the same life, if one dies they both die. They share health, they share weapons, they are equal partners.dvader654

Yeah, and Sheva caused problems for a lot of people. She uses a pistol against bosses, hoards ammo, heals the player when it's not necessary, her AI is completely broken in attack mode etc. Sheva tries to do more, but does not succeed. Everything Alyx was designed to do, she does right.

Yeah, and Sheva caused problems for a lot of people. She uses a pistol against bosses, hoards ammo, heals the player when it's not necessary, her AI is completely broken in attack mode etc. Sheva tries to do more, but does not succeed. Everything Alyx was designed to do, she does right.

UpInFlames

Hoards ammo? No. She burns through ammo. She also gives you all the ammo she has if you have the gun that uses it. Sheva is a lot better than Alyx in the sense that she feels like more of a partner. Alyx is a force of her own, even without your help. When I got to the car garage in Episode 1, she was surrounded by antlions and never died. She simply killed them all while I plugged the holes up.

By the way, did anyone ever play Half Life: Opposing Force? Do you think we'll ever find out what happened to Adrian Shepard?

Hoards ammo? No. She burns through ammo. She also gives you all the ammo she has if you have the gun that uses it. Sheva is a lot better than Alyx in the sense that she feels like more of a partner. Alyx is a force of her own, even without your help. When I got to the car garage in Episode 1, she was surrounded by antlions and never died. She simply killed them all while I plugged the holes up.Raikoh_

Why do you want critical NPC's to die forcing you to reload when you did nothing wrong yourself? That's just horrible design.

Again Alyx cannot be compared to Sheva cause Alyx AI is not even trying to do half the things Sheva Ai has to deal with. Its apples and oranges, that is my point. You guys magically think that if Alyx all of a sudden became an actual substitue for a player with health, ammo, dealing with commands and the like that it would turn out the same as she is in HL2, no it would not. For the love of god play pro mode with another player, its not meant to be played alone.dvader654

It's apples and oranges only in the sense that Alyx works and Sheva doesn't. That one tries to do more and fails is not my concern and it's nothing to applaud either. My only concern is that it works. To paraphrase a famous quote, a work of art is not finished when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

Why do you want critical NPC's to die forcing you to reload when you did nothing wrong yourself? That's just horrible design.

UpInFlames

Horrible design? You cannot be serious. Why would I want a game that has to hold my hand because I can't do what I'm supposed to do and protect my partner while my partner makes an attempt to do the same for me? It's not fun or challenging if my partner can just point a gun in one direction and obliterate any obstacle in it's path.

Sure, if you want a game that's going to hold your hand like that, fine by you. I don't.

But obviously its going to work if the player is not supposed to be involved. Can you imagine if Alyx would die, I am just playing my game and this character I have no control over just gets herself killed for no reason without me being able to do anything about it. You guys say she could die, I believe you, I have not seen it which leads me to believe its really hard to get her killed, you probably need to leave her alone for a while or something. All I know is that Alyx is not playing by the same rules the player is, she is a character specifically designed not to die, not just by AI but by some magic health.

I cant say it works cause its like a player putting in a god mode cheat code and telling you look how badass they are that they don't die.dvader654

Do you really think that you have any control over Sheva or Dom? You don't. You think you're "involved" because you can swap weapons? You're not. Sooner or later, a situation is going to arise in which these characters will die by no fault of yours and there will be nothing you could do about it. And what you just described actually happens all the time in Resident Evil 5 and Gears of War. Characters you have no control over get themselves killed for no reason. Sheva and Dom are the ones not playing on the same level as the player is because they are braindead idiots who die and screw things up. This does not happen in Half-Life 2 because Alyx plays on your level. If you're not screwing **** up like an idiot, why should she?

It's obvious you simply want incompetent AI companions that you have to babysit and that's fine if that's your preference. Apparantly, companion AI has to keep dying all the time to play by the same rules you do even though you're not dying yourself. Of course, that doesn't make any sense. That's precisely why you just told GodMode that you have to play Resident Evil 5 on pro with a human partner - because Sheva's AI sucks. Because she is not on your level. Because she is not playing by the same rules you are.

Horrible design? You cannot be serious. Why would I want a game that has to hold my hand because I can't do what I'm supposed to do and protect my partner while my partner makes an attempt to do the same for me? It's not fun or challenging if my partner can just point a gun in one direction and obliterate any obstacle in it's path.

Sure, if you want a game that's going to hold your hand like that, fine by you. I don't.Raikoh_

Holding my hand and dragging me down are two completely different things. There's nothing even remotely fun nor challenging in replaying the same bit over and over because a braindead AI companion is getting itself killed with me being powerless to do anything about it. Escort missions and having to reload because of friendly NPC death is horrible design.

[QUOTE="dvader654"]But obviously its going to work if the player is not supposed to be involved. Can you imagine if Alyx would die, I am just playing my game and this character I have no control over just gets herself killed for no reason without me being able to do anything about it. You guys say she could die, I believe you, I have not seen it which leads me to believe its really hard to get her killed, you probably need to leave her alone for a while or something. All I know is that Alyx is not playing by the same rules the player is, she is a character specifically designed not to die, not just by AI but by some magic health.

I cant say it works cause its like a player putting in a god mode cheat code and telling you look how badass they are that they don't die.UpInFlames

Do you really think that you have any control over Sheva or Dom? You don't. You think you're "involved" because you can swap weapons? You're not. Sooner or later, a situation is going to arise in which these characters will die by no fault of yours and there will be nothing you could do about it. And what you just described actually happens all the time in Resident Evil 5 and Gears of War. Characters you have no control over get themselves killed for no reason. Sheva and Dom are the ones not playing on the same level as the player is because they are braindead idiots who die and screw things up. This does not happen in Half-Life 2 because Alyx plays on your level. If you're not screwing **** up like an idiot, why should she?

It's obvious you simply want incompetent AI companions that you have to babysit and that's fine if that's your preference. Apparantly, companion AI has to keep dying all the time to play by the same rules you do even though you're not dying yourself. Of course, that doesn't make any sense. That's precisely why you just told GodMode that you have to play Resident Evil 5 on pro with a human partner - because Sheva's AI sucks. Because she is not on your level. Because she is not playing by the same rules you are.

To be honest, I think you both are right in your own ways, but are arguing about two different types of circumstances.

I think Dvader is right that Alyx's AI could be viewed as being 'unimpressive' or whatnot based on the fact that she doesn't have to take into account a lot of things, from the sound of it. She doesn't have to gather/manage ammo. She doesn't have to get health items, or many other fators that the player has to.

Flames, you're right in the sense that whether she's taking more things into account micromanagement wise or not is regardless to whether she's a good companion to the player. Even if she's not dealing with advanced AI, if it works well, and helps reinforce the experience, that's what should be important.

Also, the point should be made that when we're talking about Gears of Wars and RE5, these are games that are designed around co-op, with the AI NPCs essentially acting as stand ins for human players, trying to be given the same circumstances as human players, and making the same decisions (which they obviously can't). In the case of HL2, the game is supposed to be single player only, with Alyx acting as a supporting cast member, and isn't acting as a stand in for a human player, so while she doesn't 'play by the same rules' as you do, that's beside the point, because she doesn't need to play by those rules to be an effective ally for the game.Skylock00

I can live with that. :)

Although, I can use Left 4 Dead to show that Resident Evil 5 and Gears of War have sub-par AI (in Gears' case, downright horrible AI) and that Epic's and Capcom's "trying" should not be praiseworthy no matter what the circumstances. Especially considering that Left 4 Dead has to deal with three co-op AI NPC's and has a much wider assortment of actions as well as rather complicated situations that it has to assess and act in. Left 4 Dead is the only game mentioned that was built as a co-op experience from the ground up. Neither Resident Evil 5 nor Gears of War have co-op mechanics that are nearly as profound and relevant to the core gameplay as Left 4 Dead.

I can live with that. :)

Although, I can use Left 4 Dead to show that Resident Evil 5 and Gears of War have sub-par AI (in Gears' case, downright horrible AI) and that Epic's and Capcom's "trying" should not be praiseworthy no matter what the circumstances. Especially considering that Left 4 Dead has to deal with three co-op AI NPC's and has a much wider assortment of actions as well as rather complicated situations that it has to assess and act in. Left 4 Dead is the only game mentioned that was built as a co-op experience from the ground up. Neither Resident Evil 5 nor Gears of War have co-op mechanics that are nearly as profound and relevant to the core gameplay as Left 4 Dead.

UpInFlames

I would argue that the situations aren't too much more complex than RE5's in actuality, when I've looked between the two, although L4D's advantage is that the situations are semi-randomized, whereas they're constants in RE5, and that's really the only major difference that I can tell between the two regarding complexity.Skylock00

I'd say that the complexity ramps up considerably due to the fact that the game has to take into consideration 4 players, loads of enemies coming from unpredictable directions and a much higher level of NPC/player interaction (which character is pinned down by a Hunter, which one is low on health, which one is attracting the Infected, avoid car alarms and Witches etc.). Also, Left 4 Dead is a infinitely more frenetic and fast-paced leaving little room for error.

Dont talk about RE5 when you have not played it. Glad you finally saw my point. Thanks skylock.dvader654

Listen man, if I said anything factually incorrect about Resident Evil 5, you're welcome to challenge my argument. Don't tell me what I can and can't talk about. Also, I always saw your point, I just didn't appreciate how you presented it dismissing Alyx's AI by calling it non-existant and stuff. :wink:

[QUOTE="Skylock00"]I would argue that the situations aren't too much more complex than RE5's in actuality, when I've looked between the two, although L4D's advantage is that the situations are semi-randomized, whereas they're constants in RE5, and that's really the only major difference that I can tell between the two regarding complexity.UpInFlames

I'd say that the complexity ramps up considerably due to the fact that the game has to take into consideration 4 players, loads of enemies coming from unpredictable directions and a much higher level of NPC/player interaction (which character is pinned down by a Hunter, which one is low on health, which one is attracting the Infected, avoid car alarms and Witches etc.). Also, Left 4 Dead is a infinitely more frenetic and fast-paced leaving little room for error.

I could go into much further depth about the situation, but I've played both games pretty extensively, so I'm fairly confident on my assessment of the matter.

Really, though, trying to prove that one of these games is superior than the other in terms of complexity of AI/Co-Op gets to a point where it's really asinine, because these two games are strikingly different in their general design, approach, and goals as games, yet they are also very similar in a lot of conventions regarding the interactions that occur between the players when they are working together.

Besides, aren't we supposed to be getting back on track to the actual main topic of the thread? :P

Really, though, trying to prove that one of these games is superior than the other in terms of complexity of AI/Co-Op gets to a point where it's really asinine, because these two games are strikingly different in their general design, approach, and goals as games, yet they are also very similar in a lot of conventions regarding the interactions that occur between the players when they are working together.

Besides, aren't we supposed to be getting back on track to the actual main topic of the thread? :PSkylock00

Honestly, I think it's rather straightforward. More players, more enemies, deeper level of interaction, much more fast-paced. I think that as purely a co-op game, that Left 4 Dead is on a higher level than anything on the market right now.

Wait a second, this isn't the Left 4 Dead vs. Resident Evil 5 thread? :o

[QUOTE="Skylock00"]Really, though, trying to prove that one of these games is superior than the other in terms of complexity of AI/Co-Op gets to a point where it's really asinine, because these two games are strikingly different in their general design, approach, and goals as games, yet they are also very similar in a lot of conventions regarding the interactions that occur between the players when they are working together.

Besides, aren't we supposed to be getting back on track to the actual main topic of the thread? :PUpInFlames

Honestly, I think it's rather straightforward.

As for RE5 you mention it doesn't have co-op elements as profound as L4D when you cant really know that without playing it. (EDIT: See you did it again in the post above, already claiming one game is better than the other without playing them.)What you know is that yeah the AI can and will die. But thats the way the game is, its hard, but if you play right the AI isn't going to get itself killed on purpose, the player has major influence over the AI and a good player can get through without dying. Still thats more how the AI works than how the game handles co-op, which is you ask around, many say it may be the best co-op game they have ever played. I cant say that cause its the first co-op action game I have ever played from start to finish.dvader654

And they can keep claiming that it's the best co-op game they played, I'm not gonna stand in their way, I'm just expressing my opinion. I played the demo which has two levels with two different scenarios, that's more than enough to have a pretty good grip on the game's co-op mechanics. Honestly, I liked the demo better when I played alone, it was fairly meh in co-op. A complete opposite from Left 4 Dead which is a hundred times better when played in co-op. Left 4 Dead is a game meant to be played solely in co-op, it was designed around co-op from the ground up (same goes for Army of Two), I didn't get that feeling from Resident Evil 5 at all. And I could've told you that after only playing the Left 4 Dead demo. Guess what? Once I played the full game, my opinion didn't change at all! Incredible, but sometime demos are really good indicators of how a game plays like. :o

...but sometime demos are really good indicators of how a game plays like. :o

UpInFlames

[QUOTE="UpInFlames"]

...but sometime demos are really good indicators of how a game plays like. :o

Skylock00

Elaborate. I'm just highly skeptical because I've never changed my mind going from a demo to full game. Ever.

Elaborate. I'm just highly skeptical because I've never changed my mind going from a demo to full game. Ever.

UpInFlames