More light is shed on the Wii and it's graphical capabilities:

And it's quite dissapointing

I think the bad taste in my mouth for Nintendo right now grows only stronger, as a little extra developement would've made a much stronger console at little cost.

I don't know if it's dissapointing, but mario galaxy's, mario striker, ssbm, metroid prime, graphic are impressive. Not ps3 or xbox 360 quality that's for sure, but great looking none the less. I think dev team will learn how to use the gpu properlyvnc20100

Well properly is one thing, but there are limitations.  However I do have my hopes up that the quality of future games isn't just a stupid random game with Wiimote capabilities tacked on, and I want to see more RE4-graphics-caliber titles and of course improved visuals above that game.

*sigh*

Have you read the whole article? The full blown page that goes on and on of what the Wii is capable of? Its quite impressive, and I'll find you that link.

However, if you're trying to tell me that the Wii is not as powerful as the Ps3/360.. well you'd be wasting my time and everyone else on this forum.

I'll be back with a link.

"So we approached two of our most reliable technical experts at third party publishers--both of whom spoke under the condition that they not be identified for fear of angering Nintendo--for an independent evaluation of the Wii's abilities."

Some extracts:

"The Wii's GPU has fixed functions for vertex, lighting, and pixel operations," said the source "All 'programmable shaders' means is that the code you write for the shader gets run on the vertex and pixel hardware of the GPU. This is how it works on the high-end ATI and Nvidia GPU parts. The Wii is an older fixed function design where you have lots of operations but the pipelines are not programmable in the sense of downloading shader code to run [on them]."

"The same source cited a third factor: an apparent increase in fixed-function "texture environment stages"--also known as TEV stages--from 8 in the Gamecube to 16 on the Wii. (The source stressed "apparent" because this feature wasn't described in the Wii's graphics overview documentation--which was simply repurposed from the Gamecube--but it was listed among the Wii's programming calls. "Assuming this isn't a bug, it means that much more complex per-pixel graphics operations are possible,"

"Eight additional stages mean more complex operations are possible. It would be easier to do bump mapping perhaps, or environment mapping, but you would have to get creative with how you do it."

"Almost all the shader effects on PC, Xbox 360 and PS3 can be reproduced on the Wii by re-implementing them with the fixed function hardware of the Wii's GPU. Most games just port the effect over. A few teams have gone as far as making a shader-to-Wii conversion tool. It reads the shader code and generates the fixed function code necessary to achieve the same result. Keep in mind that the Wii's GPU is not as fast or feature rich as the Xbox 360 or PS3, but that doesn't mean you can't get very close results."

"So we approached two of our most reliable technical experts at third party publishers--both of whom spoke under the condition that they not be identified for fear of angering Nintendo--for an independent evaluation of the Wii's abilities."

Some extracts:

"The Wii's GPU has fixed functions for vertex, lighting, and pixel operations," said the source "All 'programmable shaders' means is that the code you write for the shader gets run on the vertex and pixel hardware of the GPU. This is how it works on the high-end ATI and Nvidia GPU parts. The Wii is an older fixed function design where you have lots of operations but the pipelines are not programmable in the sense of downloading shader code to run [on them]."

"The same source cited a third factor: an apparent increase in fixed-function "texture environment stages"--also known as TEV stages--from 8 in the Gamecube to 16 on the Wii. (The source stressed "apparent" because this feature wasn't described in the Wii's graphics overview documentation--which was simply repurposed from the Gamecube--but it was listed among the Wii's programming calls. "Assuming this isn't a bug, it means that much more complex per-pixel graphics operations are possible,"

"Eight additional stages mean more complex operations are possible. It would be easier to do bump mapping perhaps, or environment mapping, but you would have to get creative with how you do it."

"Almost all the shader effects on PC, Xbox 360 and PS3 can be reproduced on the Wii by re-implementing them with the fixed function hardware of the Wii's GPU. Most games just port the effect over. A few teams have gone as far as making a shader-to-Wii conversion tool. It reads the shader code and generates the fixed function code necessary to achieve the same result. Keep in mind that the Wii's GPU is not as fast or feature rich as the Xbox 360 or PS3, but that doesn't mean you can't get very close results."

sonic_spark

Cool, but does that sacrifise performances like say, speed?

very interesting read....I'm really just sick of the gross ports...

They can emulate/reproduce the shader code.  Not the same quality though.  They are limited by the hardware.  Yes I did read the links as well, I'm not stupid, I thought it was better to link to the center of the wheel where one could choose, not the end of a spoke if you get my drift.

But like they said, reproducing the code by no means recreates the same quality really, and you have the hardware limitations.  Look at this way.  Say that there is a pixel shader program that produces a certain effect such as a water reflection.  Now the Wii and the 360 can both perform this certain program, but the 360 can render the same given shader program many more times than the Wii can.  Also one must take into account that lack of HD capabilities would mean less reflection quality in much farther distances would be sufficient because the details wouldn't even be noticable, so it's possible on lower resolutions that textures, bumpmaps, etc. could look close to 360 quality, but even still there is the contendment of polygon rendering, dynamic shadows, lighting effects (no HDR for the Wii) and hosts of other graphical features.  Honestly, RE4 level of textures are good enough (and they were among the best of the last generation) and the other features in the game such as it's bump maps really lent well to the game and the GC's ability to produce them.  However, despite the good lighting effects for the time and hardware, it would be nice to see the game operate with a partial or full dynamic lighting/shadowing engine at least rendering real time shadows on the ground and charactars.  They do it in the cut scenes where framerate instability isn't as much an issue and it looks good.


mobius1aic

I understand what you're saying. 

And to the above posters, yes it does sacrifice speed.

But say for example you limit to 30 fps so it maintains smoothness.  Now because the Wii can't do HD, wouldn't that mean it needs less power to emulate the same shading properties as the 360? It might not be able to render in HD... however that extra speed and power that the 360 boasts would be needed to boost HD, the Wii sidesteps that, therefore not needing the extra power to get the same level of effect.

However, resolution and overall texturing, mapping etc can only be emulated to an extent regardless of HD abilities.  So yes, the 360 is going to look better if not significantly better everytime, but thats not to say the Wii is a complete pushover. 

What I'm getting at TC is that the Wii itself is capable of FAR BETTER than what garbage we've seen in ports and such.  Its similarity to the Gamecube architecture regardless of actual power differences is besides the point.  Devs have been lazy finding it easy to replicate Gamecube like qualities and thinking they can get away with it.

Looking at future games such as MP3, SMG, SSB... the big 3. There is definitely promise in the Wii, and this only the first step.  It took a year for the 360 to get its Gears of War, we'll end up waiting the same and maybe a bit longer to show off the Wii's technical abilities.

The Wii's Gears of War hopefully will be Metroid Prime 3.  It's hyped as looking more impressive than Halo 2 on Xbox.  Also helps that the Wii has more RAM than the Xbox to deal with everything such as framebuffering and loading game data, plus perhaps the internal memory could be used as a data cache (unlikely but possible). 

A very few games actually showed off what the Gamecube could really do: the Rogue Squadron games and Resident Evil 4.  Rogue Squadron 2's was running normal maps and large scale dynamic shadowing at the same time.  The Hoth level was probably the most impressive with as much crazy for the time effects were going on at once.  Of course RE4 made full use of the GC's rendering capabilities too, sacrificing shadow effects during gameplay for excellent shaders such as the water effects where multiple shader layers on seperate polygon layers made for some really nice 3D like water.  Oh and remember when you fight that crazy kid (Charles was his name?) after he transforms into that burgeoing beast with the long neck, dripping with fluid and normal maps abounding impressively as the game refuses to slow in framerate?  Oh man that must be the most graphically impressive scene in the entire game.

Sorry  I'm just a whore for graphics technology.  If I was more into the math and transistor side of things, I'd be designing graphics processors :P

Graphics aren't really all about numbers, you'd be amazed at how a game can look on seemingly weak hardware. the PS2 has some incredible looking games on it's weak hardware. Also games can also look good based on the art style as well, look at okami or odin sphere. Don't take those numbers to mean your going to get all ugly games with blurry textures. There are already plenty of awesome looking Wii games like mario galaxy, ssbb, mp3 is said to now look better than halo 2, and dewy's adventure. I mean of course it won't be near the other consoles but still.cobrax80

Yup, it's about doin what you can with what you got, but in that light, having higher capabilities makes it easier to realize a vision. 

I do agree that the Wii is faaar more powerful then we have seen thus far and an interesting point which i think

sonic_spark made is that YES...the other consoles have higher specs but they need that for HD visuals. If

Nintendo were trying to run those same visuals on the Wii it might go 2fps, lol but that's not the case.

Since HD is out the door then the extra specs are not needed at all. If devs are creative with the Wii

i believe we can get very good looking games out that even make RE$ no the gamecube not look sooo

great :) 

The Wii's Gears of War hopefully will be Metroid Prime 3.  It's hyped as looking more impressive than Halo 2 on Xbox.  Also helps that the Wii has more RAM than the Xbox to deal with everything such as framebuffering and loading game data, plus perhaps the internal memory could be used as a data cache (unlikely but possible). 

mobius1aic

I pray to god you are only refering to GoW in graphical ability because the gameplay bored the living crap out of me, and I disliked the artistic design I was actually more impressed with viva pinata :lol:, but Im a big kid :) Gears is a marvel technically.

As for better than Halo 2 that was achieved with Echoes so I would expect better from its sequal.

to be honest i don't listen to nerd speak...i witness the graphics with my own eyes and i've witness mario galaxies....they are much better than an x-box....bobbetybob

ur sig is great dude 

honestly, who cares about graphics. The way I see it, as long as you're having fun playing the game, you shouldn't worry. If you have to worry about graphics to enjoy a game, then that's just pathetic . . . no offense.wiiwillstand

Agreed

honestly, who cares about graphics. The way I see it, as long as you're having fun playing the game, you shouldn't worry. If you have to worry about graphics to enjoy a game, then that's just pathetic . . . no offense.wiiwillstand

Graphics and gameplay are all part of the immersion process.  And as for the GeoW comment, yeah the game was alright, Rainbow Six: Vegas had a much better cover system and it was alot more fun and engaging.  But in reference to the comments about the lack of HD shows the lack of need for nice textures, uh that's not really all to true, even on an SDTV I can still see each little pixel of color in a 360 game.  However of course, on SDTV it's not as prominent and only a psycho PC gamer like me would ever be interested in the rendering techniques involved and technical specifications.  Actually what I envision on the Wii is alot of trilinear and antistrophic filtering for the textures with some form of anti aliasing to smooth the entire image out, which will help with any "grain" that might occur.  All this talk makes me think of how cool Rainbow Six Vegas on Wii could be.  Anyone up for demanding it? :P  

I'm so sick of the nintendo apologist fanboys on here. They are almost as annoying as the "Wii collecting dust" threads. Sure, SMG, Metroid look great. Good. I'm glad I bought a system for two "good looking" games. The fact of the matter is that most of the wii's games up till this point have been Half a** ports with half assed motion controls slapped on. And their graphics would break a mirror. Every game that is multi system, the wii version of it is the Ps2 port. They arent even bothering with making a dumbed down ps3 or 360 port. I've made it clear several times  that I'm pulling for Nintendo. My fear is that Nintendo will ultimately hurt this great thing they have.

-Sometimes the truth hurts.

I'm so sick of the nintendo apologist fanboys on here. They are almost as annoying as the "Wii collecting dust" threads. Sure, SMG, Metroid look great. Good. I'm glad I bought a system for two "good looking" games. The fact of the matter is that most of the wii's games up till this point have been Half a** ports with half assed motion controls slapped on. And their graphics would break a mirror. Every game that is multi system, the wii version of it is the Ps2 port. They arent even bothering with making a dumbed down ps3 or 360 port. I've made it clear several times that I'm pulling for Nintendo. My fear is that Nintendo will ultimately hurt this great thing they have.

 

-Sometimes the truth hurts.

born2runak

How would they hurt themselves, they are showing to third parties how to make great looking games. Some of them actually are making progress, just look a round for videos from third party games. It's coming along nicely. 

[QUOTE="born2runak"]

I'm so sick of the nintendo apologist fanboys on here. They are almost as annoying as the "Wii collecting dust" threads. Sure, SMG, Metroid look great. Good. I'm glad I bought a system for two "good looking" games. The fact of the matter is that most of the wii's games up till this point have been Half a** ports with half assed motion controls slapped on. And their graphics would break a mirror. Every game that is multi system, the wii version of it is the Ps2 port. They arent even bothering with making a dumbed down ps3 or 360 port. I've made it clear several times that I'm pulling for Nintendo. My fear is that Nintendo will ultimately hurt this great thing they have.

 

-Sometimes the truth hurts.

vnc20100

How would they hurt themselves, they are showing to third parties how to make great looking games. Some of them actually are making progress, just look a round for videos from third party games. It's coming along nicely. 

Yeah......I think you missed my point. Nintendo and the third party devs are both partly to blame, third party devs for not even trying, and nintendo for not making a somewhat more powerful system

[QUOTE="vnc20100"][QUOTE="born2runak"]

I'm so sick of the nintendo apologist fanboys on here. They are almost as annoying as the "Wii collecting dust" threads. Sure, SMG, Metroid look great. Good. I'm glad I bought a system for two "good looking" games. The fact of the matter is that most of the wii's games up till this point have been Half a** ports with half assed motion controls slapped on. And their graphics would break a mirror. Every game that is multi system, the wii version of it is the Ps2 port. They arent even bothering with making a dumbed down ps3 or 360 port. I've made it clear several times that I'm pulling for Nintendo. My fear is that Nintendo will ultimately hurt this great thing they have.

 

-Sometimes the truth hurts.

born2runak

How would they hurt themselves, they are showing to third parties how to make great looking games. Some of them actually are making progress, just look a round for videos from third party games. It's coming along nicely.

Yeah......I think you missed my point. Nintendo and the third party devs are both partly to blame, third party devs for not even trying, and nintendo for not making a somewhat more powerful system