Petz developer: You don't know what you really want in games

Clink here

*sigh*

Sigh?

Over all those projects, Meyer said he learned the different between a player and a gamer.

"When players turn the game off, it's over," Mayer said. "They don't think about games when they're not playing them."

They want the same things: Gameplay that works, substantial characters, compelling stories, gorgeous environments, and rock-solid controls. But when hardcore gamers give feedback, Mayer said they can cause more harm than good.

This guy is brilliant.

"When players turn the game off, it's over," Mayer said. "They don't think about games when they're not playing them."

False or else there wouldnt be forums

Oh my god

Is he series?

Oh my god

Is he series?

fabz_95

Probably not, but he might be serious.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

"When players turn the game off, it's over," Mayer said. "They don't think about games when they're not playing them."

False or else there wouldnt be forums

webbut

You clearly didn't read the whole thing.

He's talking about players as in opposition to gamers. It's the terms he is using for casual/hardcore, but it makes a lot more sense since there are "casual" gamers that play "hardcore" games and enjoy them, but they do not have such a passion they care about discussing it on a forum. Hence his preference to use the player/gamer terms.

More awesomeness by him:

One point lost on gamers at times is that one doesn't need to like something in order to understand why it's appealing to other people.

I was sure it would happen, people hear "Petz developper" and are already blinded. He's made many good points.

[QUOTE="webbut"]

"When players turn the game off, it's over," Mayer said. "They don't think about games when they're not playing them."

False or else there wouldnt be forums

Wintry_Flutist

You clearly didn't read the whole thing.

He's talking about players as in opposition to gamers. It's the terms he is using for casual/hardcore, but it makes a lot more sense since there are "casual" gamers that play "hardcore" games and enjoy them, but they do not have such a passion they care about discussing it on a forum. Hence his preference to use the player/gamer terms.

More awesomeness by him:

One point lost on gamers at times is that one doesn't need to like something in order to understand why it's appealing to other people.

I was sure it would happen, people hear "Petz developper" and are already blinded. He's made many good points.

i skim i skim

More awesomeness by him:

One point lost on gamers at times is that one doesn't need to like something in order to understand why it's appealing to other people.

I was sure it would happen, people hear "Petz developper" and are already blinded. He's made many good points.

Wintry_Flutist

I don't see how that point is lost on gamers more than any other person, nor do I see how it is some great insight. Of course I dislike Nazism, but I can still see its appeal to others. What's lost on him is the exact point he makes; gamers who dislike certain games still understand their appeal. They just don't think the games should have appeal.

As for your comment about being blinded... I don't think it's that. It's just rich that the dev who's apparently behind Horsez and Babyz (yes, not only is the latter spelt incorrectly but it's also improperly pluralised - what kinds of values are they trying to teach? To become teenage mothers with bad spelling?) was lecturing others about "substantial characters" and "compelling stories".

[QUOTE="Wintry_Flutist"]

More awesomeness by him:

One point lost on gamers at times is that one doesn't need to like something in order to understand why it's appealing to other people.

I was sure it would happen, people hear "Petz developper" and are already blinded. He's made many good points.

clicketyclick

I don't see how that point is lost on gamers more than any other person, nor do I see how it is some great insight. Of course I dislike Nazism, but I can still see its appeal to others. What's lost on him is the exact point he makes; gamers who dislike certain games still understand their appeal. They just don't think the games should have appeal.

As for your comment about being blinded... I don't think it's that. It's just rich that the dev who's apparently behind Horsez and Babyz (yes, not only is the latter spelt incorrectly but it's also improperly pluralised - what kinds of values are they trying to teach? To become teenage mothers with bad spelling?) was lecturing others about "substantial characters" and "compelling stories".

It's not super insight which is going to change the industry starting today, but it is just too true: he pretty much summed up the problem with fanboys, the plague of "hardcore" gamers.

It's... rich? $$$ Anyway, check the comments at GoNintendo, everyone is treating him like the antichrist.

I love this guy

He knows how to put people in their place and wont have his business killed by people who think they know what they're talking about yet don't have any connections to the industry besides picking up a controller and yammering on about it to others.

I wish more companies would take the "shut up and take what you're given, if you don't want it then stop talking about it" approach

Nintendo has taken that approach and it's brought about a rebirth to home gaming. I wish more would follow.

I love this guy

He knows how to put people in their place and wont have his business killed by people who think they know what they're talking about yet don't have any connections to the industry besides picking up a controller and yammering on about it to others.

I wish more companies would take the "shut up and take what you're given, if you don't want it then stop talking about it" approach

Nintendo has taken that approach and it's brought about a rebirth to home gaming. I wish more would follow.

Jaysonguy

Don't worry. Next gen, you'll see Microsoft and Sony doing this approach.

However, I know something. I won't play your game Petz developer.

It's not super insight which is going to change the industry starting today, but it is just too true: he pretty much summed up the problem with fanboys, the plague of "hardcore" gamers.

It's... rich? $$$ Anyway, check the comments at GoNintendo, everyone is treating him like the antichrist.Wintry_Flutist

As they should! I really fail to see how he summed up the "problem" with "fanboys" (those are not just quotes of your text; they're scare quotes.) It appears to me that the problem instead is devs not just ignoring their target audience but entirely misreading them.

Frankly, I find his comments on fans' suggestions to be insulting. Of course many game ideas cannot - and should not - be implemented, but those kinds of ideas also come from the dev staff; very few ideas from in-house brainstorming sessions actually make it to the final game! Blaming the fans for misdirecting a game is cowardly. It's up to the Creative Director to decide which ideas to incorporate and which to reject based on technological constraints and how well the ideas mesh with other ideas and the game's concept. If the game lacks direction and is trying to execute too many ideas, the fault lies entirely with the Creative Director for poor guidance of their team (and possibly the publishers for pressuring the dev team.)

I've seen the players come up with great ideas for improvements on a franchise to make it more challenging and accessible (and the dev acknowledging it) and I've seen games that clearly suffered from the developers' own poorly implemented ideas. The smart and successful developer knows to always politely listen to others, but also knows when to graciously reject an idea, whether it comes from a fan or an employee. Sorry for rattling on so long.

As they should! I really fail to see how he summed up the "problem" with "fanboys" (those are not just quotes of your text; they're scare quotes.) It appears to me that the problem instead is devs not just ignoring their target audience but entirely misreading them.

Frankly, I find his comments on fans' suggestions to be insulting. Of course many game ideas cannot - and should not - be implemented, but those kinds of ideas also come from the dev staff; very few ideas from in-house brainstorming sessions actually make it to the final game! Blaming the fans for misdirecting a game is cowardly. It's up to the Creative Director to decide which ideas to incorporate and which to reject based on technological constraints and how well the ideas mesh with other ideas and the game's concept. If the game lacks direction and is trying to execute too many ideas, the fault lies entirely with the Creative Director for poor guidance of their team (and possibly the publishers for pressuring the dev team.)

I've seen the players come up with great ideas for improvements on a franchise to make it more challenging and accessible (and the dev acknowledging it) and I've seen games that clearly suffered from the developers' own poorly implemented ideas. The smart and successful developer knows to always politely listen to others, but also knows when to graciously reject an idea, whether it comes from a fan or an employee. Sorry for rattling on so long.

clicketyclick

Of course there are intelligent gamers around, but he wasn't making a conference on exceptions. When you pick the average wish of gamers, it's pretty much "more cowbell".

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

I love this guy

He knows how to put people in their place and wont have his business killed by people who think they know what they're talking about yet don't have any connections to the industry besides picking up a controller and yammering on about it to others.

I wish more companies would take the "shut up and take what you're given, if you don't want it then stop talking about it" approach

Nintendo has taken that approach and it's brought about a rebirth to home gaming. I wish more would follow.

chris3116

Don't worry. Next gen, you'll see Microsoft and Sony doing this approach.

However, I know something. I won't play your game Petz developer.

That's exactly what he wants

Play what you want and don't play what you don't want

I'm glad someone stands up to this newly created mob of people that think they somehow have rights when it comes to all of this. Like anyone cares or wants to know what people are thinking.

Someone creates a product and people are allowed to buy it, that's where it ends. No one "owes" someone and no one is let down. If you see something on the shelf pick it up, if you don't I guess you're going away enpty handed.

I want to send this guy 5 bucks just for making my day lol

Sigh?

Over all those projects, Meyer said he learned the different between a player and a gamer.

"When players turn the game off, it's over," Mayer said. "They don't think about games when they're not playing them."

They want the same things: Gameplay that works, substantial characters, compelling stories, gorgeous environments, and rock-solid controls. But when hardcore gamers give feedback, Mayer said they can cause more harm than good.

This guy is brilliant.

Wintry_Flutist

Yep he's genuis.

[QUOTE="webbut"]

"When players turn the game off, it's over," Mayer said. "They don't think about games when they're not playing them."

False or else there wouldnt be forums

Wintry_Flutist

You clearly didn't read the whole thing.

He's talking about players as in opposition to gamers. It's the terms he is using for casual/hardcore, but it makes a lot more sense since there are "casual" gamers that play "hardcore" games and enjoy them, but they do not have such a passion they care about discussing it on a forum. Hence his preference to use the player/gamer terms.

More awesomeness by him:

One point lost on gamers at times is that one doesn't need to like something in order to understand why it's appealing to other people.

I was sure it would happen, people hear "Petz developper" and are already blinded. He's made many good points.

Of course there are intelligent gamers around, but he wasn't making a conference on exceptions. When you pick the average wish of gamers, it's pretty much "more cowbell".Wintry_Flutist

And when you pick the average design idea of developers, it's pretty much "stick a Z in the place of an S".

Thank you, I was hoping someone else had enough common sense to get that besides me.Ovirew

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." — Einstein

Let's not forget, that gamers are willing to come online after a hard day at work, and brainstorm ideas to improve the objects of their passion. This guy does the exact same thing, only for a 6 figure salary, and around a table with other 6 figure salary earners. I think we deserve at least the same amount of respect. Blaming fans for misdirecting a game is just gutless.

Besides, if I came out and said I thought nuclear technology could be improved by adding an extra weavil to the gravy, no one would listen to me, why should they? I haven't done a thing to prove I know anything about nuclear physics. This guy hasn't done much to make us believe he knows a thing about game design and creativity. Horsez.. Petz.. Babyz.. drawing from the deep well of experience there isn't he ;)

I agree with Clicketyclick on most of his points.

[QUOTE="Wintry_Flutist"]

Of course there are intelligent gamers around, but he wasn't making a conference on exceptions. When you pick the average wish of gamers, it's pretty much "more cowbell".clicketyclick

And when you pick the average design idea of developers, it's pretty much "stick a Z in the place of an S".

As usual, it's as you feel. The guy made loads of good points and isn't the emperor of evil casualcides think he is, he knows the industry he works for. Period.

I agree with Clicketyclick on most of his points.

SolemnJedi79

Not to seem argumentative, but I'm curious to know what you don't agree on and why. :P

As usual, it's as you feel. The guy made loads of good points and isn't the emperor of evil casualcides think he is, he knows the industry he works for. Period.

Wintry_Flutist

He may know the industry, but he doesn't know the consumers, and that's a rampant problem in the industry. The industry as a whole has eschewed new ideas (unless they're ripping off new ideas that proved themselves successful) and titles tend to resemble one another more and more like a bunch of high school kids trying to fit in by displaying the accepted tokens of their chosen cliques. It's moving sideways rather than forwards, and when a company decides it wants to appeal to a "wider market" (translate: women) they insult both that market and the core market in doing so (typically by dumbing down gameplay and puzzles cuz everyone knows that womyn r 2 st00pid 2 understand anything beyond the complexity of applying nail polish and bottle-feeding babyz.)

There are many causes for those trends, but I don't count dedicated fans' suggestions as one of them.

Alright, as a board game designer I'm gonna level with you. This guy is right. When you make a game, and you want it to succeed, and more importantly entertain many people, you have to broaden it's appeal. That doesn't mean you have to make it a game for idiots, but you have to stop thinking solely about the hardcore. If you design a game for yourself and you want to market it, you better hope there's a whole lot of you.goblaa

There are many ways to deal with that issue. I particularly like how Blizzard makes their games like super easy at the beginning so it won't scare anyone, and then after the first section, difficulty rises quickly.

Anyway, making games and playing games are indeed two totally different things. It's easy to demand stuff, but there ain't many gamers who play a game with full conscience of how that game came to his hands - thus properly judging it to give proper feedback. Just look at this board, 99% of Zelda ideas are stories, some involving a bearded Link. :|

Alright, as a board game designer I'm gonna level with you. This guy is right. When you make a game, and you want it to succeed, and more importantly entertain many people, you have to broaden it's appeal. That doesn't mean you have to make it a game for idiots, but you have to stop thinking solely about the hardcore. If you design a game for yourself and you want to market it, you better hope there's a whole lot of you.goblaa

Are you saying Shigeru Miyamoto didn't have himself in mind when he designed The Legend of Zelda? or Super Mario Bros? or Metroid? It's ridiculous to say that Game Developers can't make games for themselves. Developers ought to be intelligent and creative enough to also be gamers, they know what THEY like, and if they're doing their job correctly, a lot of people will agree with their tastes. I'm sure Miyamoto was thinking, when he designed LoZ "You know, I love this game" not "You know, I don't know if it will appeal to a lot of people.. maybe I should change it"

This is exactly the worn out, petrified, businessman mentality that is systematically breaking the gaming industry. Ask any Hollywood director, are you making a movie YOU want to see? I'm sure I know the answer. Developers are simply scared that their games won't be appreciated. They need to break out of that and really delve into their creative side, you know, the part they were hired for.

Besides, who said a particular game has to entertain as many people as possible? I understand the sentiment ($$$ mainly) but in an industry where there's hundreds of different games per year being released, why should your game appeal to the most? Generally most developers accept that it won't, but it WILL appeal to the audience it's targetted for. FPS games will appeal to FPS fans, RPG's to RPG fans, that's why genre's are made. By axing that, and trying to make your game appeal to everyone, it will end up appealing to no one, because the formula that madea genre appeal to people is mixed with a genre that makes those same people not wish to play. What could be good for one genre becomes a mixed bag of half baked ideas made to appeal to everyone.

Fear is what makes these developers say these things, and knowing the industry isn't the same as knowing the fanbase you're working for. Does Wes Craven know the horror fanbase? I'd say yes he does, does Michael Bay know the action fans? yes. You don't see Michael Bay trying to do a romance. The bottom line here is, genre's exist for a reason, and current games are starting to blur the lines.

clicketyclick: I agree with all your points, but it wouldn't sound very diplomatic to say that now would it :P oh wait, I just did.. damn.

I love this guy

He knows how to put people in their place and wont have his business killed by people who think they know what they're talking about yet don't have any connections to the industry besides picking up a controller and yammering on about it to others.

I wish more companies would take the "shut up and take what you're given, if you don't want it then stop talking about it" approach

Nintendo has taken that approach and it's brought about a rebirth to home gaming. I wish more would follow.

Jaysonguy

That's exactly what he wants

Play what you want and don't play what you don't want

I'm glad someone stands up to this newly created mob of people that think they somehow have rights when it comes to all of this. Like anyone cares or wants to know what people are thinking.

Someone creates a product and people are allowed to buy it, that's where it ends. No one "owes" someone and no one is let down. If you see something on the shelf pick it up, if you don't I guess you're going away enpty handed.

I want to send this guy 5 bucks just for making my day lol

Jaysonguy

Are you saying Shigeru Miyamoto didn't have himself in mind when he designed The Legend of Zelda? or Super Mario Bros? or Metroid? It's ridiculous to say that Game Developers can't make games for themselves. Developers ought to be intelligent and creative enough to also be gamers, they know what THEY like, and if they're doing their job correctly, a lot of people will agree with their tastes. I'm sure Miyamoto was thinking, when he designed LoZ "You know, I love this game" not "You know, I don't know if it will appeal to a lot of people.. maybe I should change it"

This is exactly the worn out, petrified, businessman mentality that is systematically breaking the gaming industry. Ask any Hollywood director, are you making a movie YOU want to see? I'm sure I know the answer. Developers are simply scared that their games won't be appreciated. They need to break out of that and really delve into their creative side, you know, the part they were hired for. SolemnJedi79

Exactly. I've often seen successful inventors say, when asked how they came up with their idea, "I made something that I wanted to use... then patented it." Of course this applies to gaming.

Eliza Block designed a crossword puzzle app for the iPhone because, "I wanted to do crossword puzzles on my phone, so I wrote an application for it. When I submitted it to the App Store, I expected to sell maybe 100-200 copies overall - if I was lucky." She's earning $2000 a day off it now and its in the top 40 best-selling iphone apps. It all started because she wanted to be able to solve crosswords on her iphone... then distributed the software and found others wanted to as well. (Source)

I disagree with what the Petz guy and goblaa said; I don't think they should be thinking about or targeting anyone or any group in particular. A truly great developer will focus on perfecting the game itself. If they are thinking solely of refining the experience they're trying to create to the exclusion of all else, then that game will find its own fanbase. Wouldn't you agree, Wintry? ;)

By axing that, and trying to make your game appeal to everyone, it will end up appealing to no one, because the formula that made a genre appeal to people is mixed with a genre that makes those same people not wish to play. What could be good for one genre becomes a mixed bag of half baked ideas made to appeal to everyone.

SolemnJedi79

Hah, Yahtzee Croshaw's review of Tabula Rasa was on that exact subject.

Saying that the gamer doesn't know what they actually want, as the Petz guy did, is condescending and arrogant. I wonder if he has the nads to say that to Fallout fans. They know very well what they want, and they know that Bethesda isn't going to give it to them. Of course, Fallout 3 will still be massively successful and probably get GOTY, but that doesn't mean the changes will have been for the better, nor does it mean that the fans will realise the "errors in their ways" and get on board, saying, "oh man, I didn't know what I actually wanted! Thank you Bethesda for watering down yet another series in order to rake in money, cuz that's what I wanted all along but never knew it!"

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

That's exactly what he wants

Play what you want and don't play what you don't want

I'm glad someone stands up to this newly created mob of people that think they somehow have rights when it comes to all of this. Like anyone cares or wants to know what people are thinking.

Someone creates a product and people are allowed to buy it, that's where it ends. No one "owes" someone and no one is let down. If you see something on the shelf pick it up, if you don't I guess you're going away enpty handed.

I want to send this guy 5 bucks just for making my day lol

JLF1

No, quiet is good for games you don't like

Know what's a crap game?

Smash Bros

Know another crap game?

Okami

Want one more?

No More Heroes

Three games all crap games. Now are these games crap to everyone? No they're not. In fact some people have them as one of their favorites. Some people even rank all three as their all time favorites.

Are they wrong?

No, they're picking what games they like, just like EVERY OTHER PERSON should be able to pick what games they like.

But nooooooooooo, we have people like you saying that people shouldn't get what they want because you don't want people playing what they want.

No, quiet is good for games you don't like

Know what's a crap game?

Smash Bros

Know another crap game?

Okami

Want one more?

No More Heroes

Three games all crap games. Now are these games crap to everyone? No they're not. In fact some people have them as one of their favorites. Some people even rank all three as their all time favorites.

Are they wrong?

No, they're picking what games they like, just like EVERY OTHER PERSON should be able to pick what games they like.

But nooooooooooo, we have people like you saying that people shouldn't get what they want because you don't want people playing what they want.

Jaysonguy

He knows what he is talking about, regardless of what games hes behind.Haziqonfire

Haziq, quick and right 100% of time.

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

No, quiet is good for games you don't like

Know what's a crap game?

Smash Bros

Know another crap game?

Okami

Want one more?

No More Heroes

Three games all crap games. Now are these games crap to everyone? No they're not. In fact some people have them as one of their favorites. Some people even rank all three as their all time favorites.

Are they wrong?

No, they're picking what games they like, just like EVERY OTHER PERSON should be able to pick what games they like.

But nooooooooooo, we have people like you saying that people shouldn't get what they want because you don't want people playing what they want.

JLF1

Oh I see, you want people to be happy with their purchases.

Average rating 3.5 stars
Ratings 4 star or higher : 7
Ratings 2 star or lower: 3

Average rating 3 stars
Ratings 4 stars or higher: 5
Ratings 2 star or lower: 2

Average rating 3.5 stars
Ratings 4 stars or higher: 3
Ratings 2 stars or lower: 1

So your plan is to stop these games from being made and tell these people they really weren't enjoying themselves?

Good thing, I mean we have people here thinking they're actually having fun with the games and they're doing it wrong.

What's this star rating business?

Dogz GBA: 68% Game Informer. 65% GameZone. 60% NintendoWorldReport. 42% Gaming Horizon. 40% GameSpy & Digital Entertainment News & Gamers' Temple, 32% Next Level Gaming, 20% EuroGamer. (48% average)

Dogz DS: 55% GameZone & IGN.

Horsez PS2: 21% IGN.

Horsez DS: 56% GameZone, 55% NGamer UK, 40% IGN.

Catz DS: 50% IGN, 44% GameZone.

Catz 2 Wii: 60% IGN

We can't pretend like whether or not these are good games is purely a matter of taste. A GS user would be laughed out of a forum if they ever claimed that Lair was actually a good game.

It's not a matter of "saying that people shouldn't get what they want because you don't want people playing what they want," as you put it. Perhaps it's instead a matter of people not knowing what they want, as Mr. Petz might say it. Or rather, as JLF1 was saying, they don't know any better.

It's the novelty of something new, and when it wears off and you gain more experience with it, you know what to expect and look for. Games in 3D were the bee's knees back in the day. Now we can look at 3D games more soberly and see that many are crappy. HD is the bee's knees right now. I think the novelty will wear off by the next generation. What is new and luxury now eventually becomes standard and expected.

Similarly, if someone has never played an RPG before, playing a run-of-the-mill, extremely simplistic one that's cliché-ridden might impress them because they're just not familiar with those games. If they were to go on to play the classics and top notch modern RPGs, then they would likely realise the potential the genre has and just what can be done with it. They probably won't be impressed by a mediocre RPG again.

If a casual player were introduced to the good stuff, it's probable that the crappy shovelware stuff won't be able to satisfy them because they'll have seen what is possible and begun to demand it. Of course, this isn't just limited to game concepts. It seems to be the case for freedom and human rights as well. Any sort of concept, if people know it's possible to achieve it - that there's some better way of doing things than the way they're used to - they'll demand it and will no longer be satisfied with the status quo.