Poll. Has Nintendo been simplifying key franchises?

I've been noticing it and started to see others making the same complaint.

As of this year, I bought an Xbox 360 alongside my Wii because Nintendo's 1st party games have been unsatisfactory, since the Gamecube, in terms of overall gaming experience.

What do you think?

Have games like Twilight Princess or Wind Waker been less gratifying experiences than, say past Zelda games?

Have recent Mario games (Galaxy, Sunshine, New Mario Bros.) been less challenging or deep than past Mario games?

Have recent Mario Kart games (Double Dash, MK Wii) been oversimplified/dumbed compared to the N64 experience?

Let's hear it from honest fans.

Well the puzzles in Twilight Princess seemed fair. Phantom Hourglass was a bit on the easy side. Comparing Mario Galaxy to Super Mario 64, I would have to say that Mario Galaxy is a lot more simpler. New Super Mario Bros. didn't feel as inspired as the old Super Mario Bros games. Mario Kart Wii seems extremly simplified in that whoever wins seems like a role of the dice now.

I'd like to mention Metroid Prime 3 but I haven't played any of the other metroid games (plus I haven't beaten it yet anyways) so I can't.

lmao the only hardcore games nintendo had were zelda and metroid franchises.

zelda has become way too redundant and metroid prime has just come into existence but mp3 was way too easy. still a great game though.

would love to see what nintendo has up their sleeves for future zelda and metroid titles. hope they dont retrace steps and dow nthe same old same old. its making me hate them slowly but surely.

nintendo just really has gotten out of touch with modern gaming and ways to attract modern gamers. seeing as they failed in that market they go for non-gamers which is why everything is so oversimplified. and that doesnt work well for me because i am a truly complex person.

Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.Shinobishyguy

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.-Sphere-

lol

I think Super Mario Sunshine was actually a pretty good game, but I think Galaxy was meh, what I played of that anyway. The new Zeldas havent been any less satisfying than the ones before it, the new Metroids are just as good as the older ones, the new Pokemon are just as good as the previous ones...Mario Kart DS is the best Mario Kart game I have ever played, and Mario kart Wii allows for 12 people to play at once so it must not be that bad.

So...no, I wouldn't necessarily say that, it's a mixed bag.

i feel like mario kart wii looks and feels much more childish. childish, no other word for it. (coming from a 19 yr old, i dnt know how old u are).

take two levels.. Toad's Raceway from N64 and .. that Daisy track from Wii. (sidenote: havent bought, but played/tried/seen pics from the Wii version)

in terms of gameplay.. the N64 track (toads raceway) seems far more unapologetic in terms of your control/driving skills. this is not a real driving game, but the charm of the n64 toad track was that it looked like it wanted to be realistic but not to the point that it was realism, hence it being humorous or charming.

back to controls. the wii kart controls are sluggish and too simple with wiimote, when, even with the wiimote they shudnt have felt simple. furthermore, ive been hearing people complain about Wii kart being too based on items/random factor than actual control skills

et voila.

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.-Sphere-

There's quite a handfull of missions in mario galaxy that were tough

Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.Shinobishyguy

I did it :D

i wanted to say mainly that Kart 64 had more depth and *difficulty* than Double Dash because I had only tried the Wii version.

i just think that, although there were little to no unlockables in 64 (i think), it had more lasting appeal, or at least seemed like it did. again, compared to more recent kart experiences, not just exclusively the wii version.

i just beat mp3. it was slightly more shooter centric than past games, but i guess you could say the series was moving in that direction anyway if you look at the jump from mp to mp2.

but the difficulty was definitely toned down. i went in to the final battle expecting something insanely hard like in prior mp games (mp2 in particular). instead, it just got easier as the bosses came. i beat the last form in a couple minutes. it is odd to see the series ramp up in difficulty from 1 to 2, and then fall way down once it hits a more casual console like the wii.

i also noticed that the story was much more "tell" than "figure out". i was a little disappointed in that. it felt much more immersing to just land on the planet and figure everything out by scanning around. it feels out of line with the immersing gameplay theme retro was implementing everywhere else in the game.

i feel like mario kart wii looks and feels much more childish. childish, no other word for it. (coming from a 19 yr old, i dnt know how old u are).

take two levels.. Toad's Raceway from N64 and .. that Daisy track from Wii. (sidenote: havent bought, but played/tried/seen pics from the Wii version)

in terms of gameplay.. the N64 track (toads raceway) seems far more unapologetic in terms of your control/driving skills. this is not a real driving game, but the charm of the n64 toad track was that it looked like it wanted to be realistic but not to the point that it was realism, hence it being humorous or charming.

back to controls. the wii kart controls are sluggish and too simple with wiimote, when, even with the wiimote they shudnt have felt simple. furthermore, ive been hearing people complain about Wii kart being too based on items/random factor than actual control skills

et voila.

g_moujaes_2000

1.) if you dont want the game to be realistic then use a gamecube controller.

2.) The wii mote works perfectly i have no clue what you are talking about it being to simple. Moving an analog stick is easier than then motion controls.

3.) Mario kart is about items/luck get used to it!

Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.Shinobishyguy

That took me two tries...

[QUOTE="-Sphere-"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.Shinobishyguy

There's quite a handfull of missions in mario galaxy that were tough

dreadnaught's was the hardest mission in that game everyother mission was very very very easy. Espcially the dark matter reactor.

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]

[QUOTE="-Sphere-"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.Minishdriveby

There's quite a handfull of missions in mario galaxy that were tough

dreadnaught's was the hardest mission in that game everyother mission was very very very easy. Espcially the dark matter reactor.

Yea we get it, you want everyone to know that you're a super amazing gamer. In the end is Galaxy any easier than the nes mario games? I don't think so. Nintendo never wanted the games to be maddeningly difficult. They wanted the games to give the player a challenge, but not a huge one.

[QUOTE="Minishdriveby"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]

[QUOTE="-Sphere-"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.Picklechugger

There's quite a handfull of missions in mario galaxy that were tough

dreadnaught's was the hardest mission in that game everyother mission was very very very easy. Espcially the dark matter reactor.

Yea we get it, you want everyone to know that you're a super amazing gamer. In the end is Galaxy any easier than the nes mario games? I don't think so. Nintendo never wanted the games to be maddeningly difficult. They wanted the games to give the player a challenge, but not a huge one.

No I'm just saying he shouldn't make his point with those. Really The Series are getting easier.

MP3- Pretty much holds you hand and gives you a straight line to the bosses, plus they tell you where all the tanks and missiles are.

Mario kart Wii- I remember getting very frustrated trying to beat all the cups in MK DD but mario kart wii I've been able to easily get 1 star or more.

I'm not saying that they lost there fun cause they're very fun MK wii is a lot better than DD but they are getting simplified.

you can't possibly tell me you enjoyed Twilight Princess as much as the N64 Zeldas?g_moujaes_2000

I did. I've played it twice and never noticed it being any simpler than another other 3D Zelda. Phantom Hourglass was definately simplified although that didn't make it any less fun.

[QUOTE="Picklechugger"][QUOTE="Minishdriveby"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]

[QUOTE="-Sphere-"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.Minishdriveby

There's quite a handfull of missions in mario galaxy that were tough

dreadnaught's was the hardest mission in that game everyother mission was very very very easy. Espcially the dark matter reactor.

Yea we get it, you want everyone to know that you're a super amazing gamer. In the end is Galaxy any easier than the nes mario games? I don't think so. Nintendo never wanted the games to be maddeningly difficult. They wanted the games to give the player a challenge, but not a huge one.

No I'm just saying he shouldn't make his point with those. Really The Series are getting easier.

MP3- Pretty much holds you hand and gives you a straight line to the bosses, plus they tell you where all the tanks and missiles are.

Mario kart Wii- I remember getting very frustrated trying to beat all the cups in MK DD but mario kart wii I've been able to easily get 1 star or more.

I'm not saying that they lost there fun cause they're very fun MK wii is a lot better than DD but they are getting simplified.

Weren't we talking about the Super Mario series? Let's not change the subject now buddy...

Like I said, he had every right to point out those challenges. They were some of the most difficult in Galaxy, and that difficulty is about equal with the difficulty from the past Super Mario games (we're not going to talk about the Lost Levels, that's a different story).

I can't say anything for MP3 because I haven't played any of those. For Mario Kart, though. Maybe you hit puberty after you were done playing MK DD and now you're suddenly able to play standard difficulty videogames. Just a thought.

[QUOTE="Minishdriveby"][QUOTE="Picklechugger"][QUOTE="Minishdriveby"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]

[QUOTE="-Sphere-"][QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.Picklechugger

There's quite a handfull of missions in mario galaxy that were tough

dreadnaught's was the hardest mission in that game everyother mission was very very very easy. Espcially the dark matter reactor.

Yea we get it, you want everyone to know that you're a super amazing gamer. In the end is Galaxy any easier than the nes mario games? I don't think so. Nintendo never wanted the games to be maddeningly difficult. They wanted the games to give the player a challenge, but not a huge one.

No I'm just saying he shouldn't make his point with those. Really The Series are getting easier.

MP3- Pretty much holds you hand and gives you a straight line to the bosses, plus they tell you where all the tanks and missiles are.

Mario kart Wii- I remember getting very frustrated trying to beat all the cups in MK DD but mario kart wii I've been able to easily get 1 star or more.

I'm not saying that they lost there fun cause they're very fun MK wii is a lot better than DD but they are getting simplified.

Weren't we talking about the Super Mario series? Let's not change the subject now buddy...

Like I said, he had every right to point out those challenges. They were some of the most difficult in Galaxy, and that difficulty is about equal with the difficulty from the past Super Mario games (we're not going to talk about the Lost Levels, that's a different story).

I can't say anything for MP3 because I haven't played any of those. For Mario Kart, though. Maybe you hit puberty after you were done playing MK DD and now you're suddenly able to play standard difficulty videogames. Just a thought.

okay if you want to talk about Mario then yes, the game and series as always been easy, but galaxy would have to be the easiest.

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.Minishdriveby

That took me two tries...

That took me 1 try with both Mario and Luigi 8)

And to to the question, I have to say yes. The Wii has simplified all the games, so casual gamers can pick them, but this doesn't mean that they are easier now. Simple is not the same as easy. So, is that such a bad thing?

[QUOTE="Minishdriveby"]

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.Thiago26792

That took me two tries...

That took me 1 try with both Mario and Luigi 8)

And to to the question, I have to say yes. The Wii has simplified all the games, so casual gamers can pick them, but this doesn't mean that they are easier now. Simple is not the same as easy. So, is that such a bad thing?

:o I think we have our winner

Ever new instalment you play in any of the franchises has the benefit of previous experience.

I didnt need to relearn any of the "core" Smash Bros chars and already remember the basics. I didnt have to relearn to drag speed boost for Mario Kart Wii (and half the game is "Best Of" levels). Play super mario 3 again and you will notice how...not hard it is. But it sure felt it then (those fire levels with the cannons...). And if we take the frightening amount of time we all spend playing these games it is only natural that we find what comes next easier.

The games wouldnt be half as easy and simple if there werent so many guides and walkthroughs available too. I know it will probably insult some of you to the core that I even hint that you use guides... but gamefaqs is popular... somehow. A Link To The Past is not very complex (and i love it) and Twilight Princess stays at that level.

Galaxies is huge compared to earlier mario's and imo a worthy successor to m64 and sunshine. My nephew does not find it as easy as I did, but this isnt his umpteenth mario adventure either.

Only thing I would find to "simplify" that they do is they make it harder for you to get frustrated since you cant completley lose in most games now a days anyway (save games ftw? infinite lives? unpenalized retries?). This last aspect is everywhere in gaming though, not just nintendo does it.

So, no. My grain of sand.

Ever new instalment you play in any of the franchises has the benefit of previous experience.

I didnt need to relearn any of the "core" Smash Bros chars and already remember the basics. I didnt have to relearn to drag speed boost for Mario Kart Wii (and half the game is "Best Of" levels). Play super mario 3 again and you will notice how...not hard it is. But it sure felt it then (those fire levels with the cannons...). And if we take the frightening amount of time we all spend playing these games it is only natural that we find what comes next easier.

The games wouldnt be half as easy and simple if there werent so many guides and walkthroughs available too. I know it will probably insult some of you to the core that I even hint that you use guides... but gamefaqs is popular... somehow. A Link To The Past is not very complex (and i love it) and Twilight Princess stays at that level.

Galaxies is huge compared to earlier mario's and imo a worthy successor to m64 and sunshine. My nephew does not find it as easy as I did, but this isnt his umpteenth mario adventure either.

Only thing I would find to "simplify" that they do is they make it harder for you to get frustrated since you cant completley lose in most games now a days anyway (save games ftw? infinite lives? unpenalized retries?). This last aspect is everywhere in gaming though, not just nintendo does it.

So, no. My grain of sand.

raptures330

I agree with you... the more you play the easier games get but not always this is the case... sometimes games are just made easier... and this is really annoying.... and guides and walkthroughs are only for people that arent smart enough to figure thhings out for themselves... Games like mario galaxy are very like it predecessors MArio 64 and Mario Sunshine but as you said.... its got plenty more levels and more innovative things... perhaps your nephew didnt find it so easy coz he hadnt played mario 64 or mario sunshine...

Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.Shinobishyguy

That was actually not that hard once I figured out there were more than 100 coins. :P

[QUOTE="Minishdriveby"]

[QUOTE="Shinobishyguy"]Go complete the "Luigi's purple coins" mission in super mario galaxy and tell me that mario platformers have been dumbed down. I dare you.Thiago26792

That took me two tries...

That took me 1 try with both Mario and Luigi 8)

And to to the question, I have to say yes. The Wii has simplified all the games, so casual gamers can pick them, but this doesn't mean that they are easier now. Simple is not the same as easy. So, is that such a bad thing?

Exactly.

no matter what anyone has to say about "games getting easier with time and experience/and age".. (which I somewhat agree with) -- I still go back to Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask versus Twilight Princess gameplay to state my case.

i don't think gaming experience would have made any difference whatsoever. Whether I play OoT now or whether I played it 7 years ago, I still think that it would present significantly more challenge and exploration depth than Twilight Princess.

I read somewhere someone posting on threads that Hyrule of TP was a very 'vast' and pretty looking Hyrule, but also very 'empty' at the same time. Same goes to the level design of Kakariko Village. In OoT, it was simply more 'complexe' more concentrated in terms of exploration than Kakariko of TP, even though the latter had arguably more breadth.

If I gave myself the time, I could think of other level designs in TP that are more 'simplified' or shallower than past Zelda games.

Have recent Mario games (Galaxy, Sunshine, New Mario Bros.) been less challenging or deep than past Mario games?

Have recent Mario Kart games (Double Dash, MK Wii) been oversimplified/dumbed compared to the N64 experience?

Let's hear it from honest fans.

g_moujaes_2000

Well its not that Galaxy and Sunshine are not challenging its there challenging in different ways, what if it was like the NES Mario games where if you lost all your lives you have to start from the beginning or like the SNES Mario game where you had to do the whole world over. As for the N64 it was a pain to find the area that you need to go to to get a star with a brocken camera and a bunch of pictures you cant jump through confussing some people (of course this is just what I think, others might think different).

As for recent Mario Kart games I would agree, you can go from 1 to 6 just by getting hit with one item plus getting items is way more about luck now then in other Mario Kart games (N64 for example).

Simplifying? No. Regardless of what anyone says, I think Twilight Princess was just as complex as Ocarina of Time or A Link to the Past. It's just that now we know what to expect. Same goes for Super Mario Galaxy; it's just as complex as Super Mario 64. Was it easier to complete? Yes, but that doesn't make it simpler. You want simple? Look no further than the original Super Mario Bros. That game is exceedingly simple, but I hear no complaints. That game was great!

Simplicity should not be confused with a game's difficulty. Even Super Mario Bros 3 (which arguably has the most complex level design of any platformer) still has a very simple concept: get to the end of the level and then the world and then beat Bowser to save Peach. That's it! The entire concept! However, that game's difficulty is through the roof.

Nintendo hasn't simplified core franchises: it's made sequels, and sequels almost always contain the same concept as the original. It's unescapable (except for Super Mario Bros 2 USA, which is a whole other story). Sequels are well and good, and don't forget that. Did we look forward to Super Smash Bros Brawl? Yes. Is the core gameplay any different from the N64 original? No. Do we care? Hell no!

The best games are usually the simplest. Don't forget that.

I cannot believe how close this poll is :lol:.stkr

i wonder what these numbers say about nintendo fans. i mean it just goes to show how heterogeneous/split people's reactions are to nintendo's key franchises..

it also means that nintendo has nothing to lose if it kept releasing its games the way it does now (slightly easier, slightly simpler) or whether it made them more difficult.

what are the stakes at hand?

no matter what anyone has to say about "games getting easier with time and experience/and age".. (which I somewhat agree with) -- I still go back to Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask versus Twilight Princess gameplay to state my case.

i don't think gaming experience would have made any difference whatsoever. Whether I play OoT now or whether I played it 7 years ago, I still think that it would present significantly more challenge and exploration depth than Twilight Princess.

I read somewhere someone posting on threads that Hyrule of TP was a very 'vast' and pretty looking Hyrule, but also very 'empty' at the same time. Same goes to the level design of Kakariko Village. In OoT, it was simply more 'complexe' more concentrated in terms of exploration than Kakariko of TP, even though the latter had arguably more breadth.

If I gave myself the time, I could think of other level designs in TP that are more 'simplified' or shallower than past Zelda games.

g_moujaes_2000

and seriously dude... you dont think that this is a downgrade...???!!! for crissakes you just said it... and again I agree with you ppl that have played all mario adventure games find the latest one far more easy... but when you compare OoT and TP of course OoT has more city depth and s**t but TP has other factors that favor it like the motion sensor they took depth out just to add other type of content..