RE4 violence versus Manhunt 2

They're not even remotelysimilar or comparable. In RE, you kill things. In Manhunt, you practically torture. The point of Manhunt- the draw of it, really- is the different gory ways you can kill something. It's the reason for the game.

RE4 is a slightly gory action movie. Manhunt is a snuff film.

I think the whole deciding factor is that in RE4, you are kililng mutant humans and ogres of some kind... basically fictional characters. In Manhunt, you are brutally killing portrayals of human beings.stevenk4k5

I think the whole deciding factor is that in RE4, you are kililng mutant humans and ogres of some kind... basically fictional characters. In Manhunt, you are brutally killing portrayals of human beings.stevenk4k5

what he said

They're not even remotelysimilar or comparable. In RE, you kill things. In Manhunt, you practically torture. The point of Manhunt- the draw of it, really- is the different gory ways you can kill something. It's the reason for the game.

RE4 is a slightly gory action movie. Manhunt is a snuff film.

Spelunker

Yet in the punisher you could torture but that didn't get banned. You can indimidate people in the Godfather and 'rough the up' and that didn't get banned. Jeez. Just check out Hostel,300 or grindhouse to see it's one rule for the film industry and another for games.

[QUOTE="Spelunker"]

They're not even remotelysimilar or comparable. In RE, you kill things. In Manhunt, you practically torture. The point of Manhunt- the draw of it, really- is the different gory ways you can kill something. It's the reason for the game.

RE4 is a slightly gory action movie. Manhunt is a snuff film.

JustWiicredible

Yet in the punisher you could torture but that didn't get banned. You can indimidate people in the Godfather and 'rough the up' and that didn't get banned. Jeez. Just check out Hostel,300 or grindhouse to see it's one rule for the film industry and another for games.

I'll give you Hostel, but your other examples are nothing compared to this game.

Remember that old pc game called Soldier of Fortune? That was very sadistic and brutal. You could shoot specific body parts and get different results. Blow off arms, legs, parts of skulls, blow out the intestines , all kinds of extreme violence in that game> I dont think i have seen a game quite that bad since it first came out, and that was years ago....but it was M rated. So was Postal 2.

No, i think something more sinister is happening with Manhunt 2. The forces of censorship are rearing their ugly head, starting with this game. i think the M rated future is going to look rather bleak after all the ramifications begin to settle in. I would not doubt we will see some highly expected games be altered before release at the end of the year. Just you see.

Remember that old pc game called Soldier of Fortune? That was very sadistic and brutal. You could shoot specific body parts and get different results. Blow off arms, legs, parts of skulls, blow out the intestines , all kinds of extreme violence in that game> I dont think i have seen a game quite that bad since it first came out, and that was years ago....but it was M rated. So was Postal 2.

No, i think something more sinister is happening with Manhunt 2. The forces of censorship are rearing their ugly head, starting with this game. i think the M rated future is going to look rather bleak after all the ramifications begin to settle in. I would not doubt we will see some highly expected games be altered before release at the end of the year. Just you see.

Videodogg

Or, you could just be totally paranoid. By all accounts- and the videos that have been shown- this is most likely the most violent game ever created.

And it's hardly a censorship issue: it's the game industry that is giving the game the rating.

[QUOTE="Spelunker"]

They're not even remotelysimilar or comparable. In RE, you kill things. In Manhunt, you practically torture. The point of Manhunt- the draw of it, really- is the different gory ways you can kill something. It's the reason for the game.

RE4 is a slightly gory action movie. Manhunt is a snuff film.

JustWiicredible

Yet in the punisher you could torture but that didn't get banned. You can indimidate people in the Godfather and 'rough the up' and that didn't get banned. Jeez. Just check out Hostel,300 or grindhouse to see it's one rule for the film industry and another for games.

i think the absolute worse thing that i saw happen in 300 was the severed head of that one guys son. other than that it was just people getting stabbed and the occasional flash of blood. Thats even more comparable to something like God of War, not particularly gory, just alot of enemies onscreen, who bleed, and show minor decapitation details.

Whereas something like manhunt, when you actually can creep upon one lone moron and suffocate him with a plastic bag, then continue to maim him as you please. There's attention to detail in Manhunt.

A movie that would resemble manhunt. hmm. im thinking of something like Hostel or Cannibal Holocaust (that movie was so violent, the director had to prove to a judge that the acts of gore did not really happen and were all faked)

I thought of a better one, Ichi the Killer

You can "reach underneath the enemy to grab on to his family jewels, rip 'em off, and then stick the wire cutters into his back and tear out the spinal cord."...as said by 1-UPforgot_it

And that about sums it up, folks.

You can "reach underneath the enemy to grab on to his family jewels, rip 'em off, and then stick the wire cutters into his back and tear out the spinal cord."...as said by 1-UPforgot_it

You can cut off someone's head, and wear it on your belt. And people are trying to compare this to RE4? I mean, come on.

[QUOTE="JustWiicredible"][QUOTE="Spelunker"]

They're not even remotelysimilar or comparable. In RE, you kill things. In Manhunt, you practically torture. The point of Manhunt- the draw of it, really- is the different gory ways you can kill something. It's the reason for the game.

RE4 is a slightly gory action movie. Manhunt is a snuff film.

the_leet_kid

Yet in the punisher you could torture but that didn't get banned. You can indimidate people in the Godfather and 'rough the up' and that didn't get banned. Jeez. Just check out Hostel,300 or grindhouse to see it's one rule for the film industry and another for games.

I'll give you Hostel, but your other examples are nothing compared to this game.

The point that connects the three moviesi discribed is in the way they use violence usually without a moral contingent (Sin city also being a prime example). This is the BBFC's 'hot button' It's not the gore by itself which is getting the game banned it the application of violence without justification (morality) Games about war or self defence or retribution are fine because theres a moral overtone throughout. Defending your homeland, putting right past wrongs, saving the damn princess but the BBFC found that Manhunt story wasn't strongly veiled enough and it was just violence for the sake of violence (Amoral,not immoral) and therefore deemed wrong and banned it.

The films i argue are just as thinly veiled. 300 has the pretence of defending Sparta but it's just 90mins or so of watching people kill other people. Films can be amoral (having no moral compass, opening scence of Sin city doesn't show thehitman to be doing something wrong or right) and that's with very lifelike SPX and real actors protraying the violence.

I Think the BBFC are very hypocritical giving games 'higher' standards to films which anything goes. other examples are: Pulp fiction,strawdogs and the torture fests, Audition and of COURSE the SAW series.

Just check out Hostel,300 or grindhouse to see it's one rule for the film industry and another for games.the_leet_kid

As well there should be. There's a difference between watching something violent and doing something violent. And you can't really argue that you're still just watching violence in video games. Just sit and observe someone watching an intense movie, then watch someone play an intense video game. For most people, the level of involvement in a video game is much higher in a video-game experience where the user has a certain amount of control. For example, I can watch scary movies and only laugh at the things that jump from the darkness; but in a scary video game, I'm on the edge of my seat the whole time, because I'm the one that's going to be killed, not the supporting actor.

The level of immersion that a video game can create is one of the strongest legitimate arguments that anti-violence in video games groups has. That's the factor that distinguishes the video game industry from the film industry.

As well there should be. There's a difference between watching something violent and doing something violent. And you can't really argue that you're still just watching violence in video games. Just sit and observe someone watching an intense movie, then watch someone play an intense video game. For most people, the level of involvement in a video game is much higher in a video-game experience where the user has a certain amount of control. For example, I can watch scary movies and only laugh at the things that jump from the darkness; but in a scary video game, I'm on the edge of my seat the whole time, because I'm the one that's going to be killed, not the supporting actor.

The level of immersion that a video game can create is one of the strongest legitimate arguments that anti-violence in video games groups has. That's the factor that distinguishes the video game industry from the film industry.

JordanElek

Agreed.

[QUOTE="the_leet_kid"]Just check out Hostel,300 or grindhouse to see it's one rule for the film industry and another for games.JordanElek

As well there should be. There's a difference between watching something violent and doing something violent. And you can't really argue that you're still just watching violence in video games. Just sit and observe someone watching an intense movie, then watch someone play an intense video game. For most people, the level of involvement in a video game is much higher in a video-game experience where the user has a certain amount of control. For example, I can watch scary movies and only laugh at the things that jump from the darkness; but in a scary video game, I'm on the edge of my seat the whole time, because I'm the one that's going to be killed, not the supporting actor.

The level of immersion that a video game can create is one of the strongest legitimate arguments that anti-violence in video games groups has. That's the factor that distinguishes the video game industry from the film industry.

That quote is not from me. >.>

[QUOTE="JordanElek"]

[QUOTE="the_leet_kid"]Just check out Hostel,300 or grindhouse to see it's one rule for the film industry and another for games.the_leet_kid

As well there should be. There's a difference between watching something violent and doing something violent. And you can't really argue that you're still just watching violence in video games. Just sit and observe someone watching an intense movie, then watch someone play an intense video game. For most people, the level of involvement in a video game is much higher in a video-game experience where the user has a certain amount of control. For example, I can watch scary movies and only laugh at the things that jump from the darkness; but in a scary video game, I'm on the edge of my seat the whole time, because I'm the one that's going to be killed, not the supporting actor.

The level of immersion that a video game can create is one of the strongest legitimate arguments that anti-violence in video games groups has. That's the factor that distinguishes the video game industry from the film industry.

That quote is not from me. >.>

No, it's a quote from me and though i don't reallywant to get into a pyschological debate i simply put it that the degree of immersion that video games require is at best akin to Daydreaming. Holding a piece of plastic next to a screen and pressing buttons doesn't make you become more emotionally attached to what's going on than being engrossed in a movie. To say otherwise is highly patronising. It may be true for young kids whom there very notion of what reality is still being conceived but grown adults can 'pretend' to be a killer knowing that all your doing is sitting in your bedroom pressing buttons and that pretense is over as soon as the power is turned off. Video games have no more emmotional pull over us than film,music or any other medium.

RE4 does not resemble real life. The gore is not disturbing at all.You're killing things that are not human. The game does not make you feel guilty or twisted at all. It's kinda like a campy horror movie. Manhunt 2, on the other hand, is like a exploitation movie, because it goes out of its way to sicken you.topraman517

I agree with that.

[QUOTE="forgot_it"]You can "reach underneath the enemy to grab on to his family jewels, rip 'em off, and then stick the wire cutters into his back and tear out the spinal cord."...as said by 1-UPSpelunker

You can cut off someone's head, and wear it on your belt. And people are trying to compare this to RE4? I mean, come on.

Hmmmmmmm:P

Not to mention that the point of similarity with violent movies is moot - in the movies that depict scenes of torture, such as Hostel, you aren't identifying with the person doing the torturing. The point of the movie is to disturb you, because you are identifying with the victim. With Manhunt 2, you ar meant to identify not with the person being tortured, but the torturer, which is what brings it closer to sadism than an aforementioned movie or a game like Resident Evil. In Resident Evil, you are doing what is necessary in order to survive. In Manhunt 2, you are rewarded for going beyond that and playing the sadist.

To be honest, it's a little disturbing how dificult it is for people to understand the difference.

[QUOTE="Spelunker"]

[QUOTE="forgot_it"]You can "reach underneath the enemy to grab on to his family jewels, rip 'em off, and then stick the wire cutters into his back and tear out the spinal cord."...as said by 1-UPgaminggeek

You can cut off someone's head, and wear it on your belt. And people are trying to compare this to RE4? I mean, come on.

Hmmmmmmm:P

Lol. Death yodel.

[QUOTE="forgot_it"]You can "reach underneath the enemy to grab on to his family jewels, rip 'em off, and then stick the wire cutters into his back and tear out the spinal cord."...as said by 1-UPSpelunker

You can cut off someone's head, and wear it on your belt. And people are trying to compare this to RE4? I mean, come on.

lmao

[QUOTE="Spelunker"]You can cut off someone's head, and wear it on your belt. And people are trying to compare this to RE4? I mean, come on.

gaminggeek

Hmmmmmmm:P

Of the dozens of deaths in that 8 minutes, only a handful are actually gruesome. The chainsaw decapitations and the breaking neck are two of the only ones that actually involve some sort of mutilation. All of the other ones show Leon in a generic collapsing animation, being tossed in the air, being smashed in a cloud of dust, or being dragged to his death in some way (under water, into flames, into darkness, etc.). From what I understand of Manhunt 2, nearly all the deaths are detailed mutilation of some sort. The only other instance of such acts I can think of is in Eternal Darkness, when Pious Augustus is disecting a corpse and pieces of intestine are flying into the air. But even then, the level of detail was low.

[QUOTE="gaminggeek"][QUOTE="Spelunker"]You can cut off someone's head, and wear it on your belt. And people are trying to compare this to RE4? I mean, come on.

JordanElek

Hmmmmmmm:P

Of the dozens of deaths in that 8 minutes, only a handful are actually gruesome. The chainsaw decapitations and the breaking neck are two of the only ones that actually involve some sort of mutilation. All of the other ones show Leon in a generic collapsing animation, being tossed in the air, being smashed in a cloud of dust, or being dragged to his death in some way (under water, into flames, into darkness, etc.). From what I understand of Manhunt 2, nearly all the deaths are detailed mutilation of some sort. The only other instance of such acts I can think of is in Eternal Darkness, when Pious Augustus is disecting a corpse and pieces of intestine are flying into the air. But even then, the level of detail was low.

And in RE4, it's a canned animation that happens to you. In Manhunt, it's an interactive, controlled experience that you're doing to someone else.

And in RE4, it's a canned animation that happens to you. In Manhunt, it's an interactive, controlled experience that you're doing to someone else.

Correction YOU ARE NOT HARMING ANYONE BY TORTURING A CHARACTER IN A GAME.

That quote is not from me. >.>the_leet_kid

...the degree of immersion that video games require is at best akin to Daydreaming. Holding a piece of plastic next to a screen and pressing buttons doesn't make you become more emotionally attached to what's going on than being engrossed in a movie.JustWiicredible

You're just using the old trick of dumbing down the description of an activity to make it seem banal. The immersion isn't caused by the controller; it's caused by the character on the screen responding directly to commands ordered by the player. It's an active role, not a passive one. It's almost like the difference between your watching someone get beat up and your hiring someone to beat that person up. In the former situation, you're simply an observer who feels all the normal emotions of an outsider - distance, helplessness, maybe excitement if you don't like the victim or pity if you do. But when you're part of the action, when you're the one who caused it all, you're going to feel different emotions as an observer - determination, satisfaction, superiority. These can be good things in their own right, but not when they're in response to such an act.

I understand your argument that this is all virtual and therefore not real. Adults do have the amount of control (suppression of imagination, if you will) to realize that. That's why the game is being limited to adults. The majority of teenagers also know the difference, but some have difficulty processing the emotions (described above) that result from the experience.

The point of the movie is to disturb you, because you are identifying with the victim. With Manhunt 2, you ar meant to identify not with the person being tortured, but the torturershroomba

That's an excellent point. I've never felt myself to be in the position of a torturer while watching a movie. My imagination causes me to almost physically feel the pain of the victim but never the pleasure of the torturer. With that in mind, I can see now how the BBFC has said that Manhunt 2 is in an irrevocable position.

And in RE4, it's a canned animation that happens to you. In Manhunt, it's an interactive, controlled experience that you're doing to someone else.

smackbang

Correction YOU ARE NOT HARMING ANYONE BY TORTURING A CHARACTER IN A GAME.

In terms of the game, you're doing it to someone else. We're talking about rating games here, so that's obviously the context.

You've never played Manhunt before, have you?soulfood4

No, and none of us has played Manhunt 2, which is the obvious downside to everybody's argument. But we've seen videos, and I watched videos of the original Manhunt. It didn't look like the mutilation moves were too prolific, but it's hard to judge from select gameplay videos. If the ESRB is rating Manhunt 2 more harshly than the first, there must be a difference in the level of intense violence. Whether that means worse mutilation scenes or more frequent or both, I don't know, and I'm not sure it even matters.

I think the whole deciding factor is that in RE4, you are kililng mutant humans and ogres of some kind... basically fictional characters. In Manhunt, you are brutally killing portrayals of human beings.stevenk4k5

While i reflect on some of the points made i would offer the fact that in 'Revenge' movies you DO favour the Tourturer rather than the victim. Examples: Kill bill, straw dogs,Hostel,ichi the killer, Pratically anything by Takashi Miike. The use of torture/interrigation is seen in many War films and even 24. Developers should be free to explore torture as a theme.

I also suggest that say the 'satisfaction' gained from a welldesignedtorture is just as virtual as the victim. Totake part inthe same act in real life wouldautomatically trigger a different repsonse (if your sane that is) toplay the role as a killer would never effect my inclination to do harm to otherswould be in real life. In the same way (controversal point)afther watching porn you don't then see the next female that you see in a sexual way, it would be as a friend,wife,mother etc. People can 'switch' emotional boundaries. People don't seem to think highly enough of others to have such mentalfactulties.

In RE4 you blow off heads with shotguns and you have point specific areas to shoot the villagers. You also die horrible deaths from chainsaws and other things. There are some hardcore gory images in RE4. What makes this game a M rated game versus Manhunt 2?Videodogg

i just watched the MH2 trailer and i saw a guy drenched in blood. i saw a man with a syringe in his arm (Heroine possibly). and just a twisted story... if you played the first manhunt you'll understand what i'm talking about.

You can "reach underneath the enemy to grab on to his family jewels, rip 'em off, and then stick the wire cutters into his back and tear out the spinal cord."...as said by 1-UPforgot_it

Sound like a mortal kombat's fatality..

People can 'switch' emotional boundaries. People don't seem to think highly enough of others to have such mentalfactulties.JustWiicredible

I agree. That's why I applied my argument to the people who don't possess those mental faculties very strongly yet, such as (obviously) young children, and certain teenagers. There will always be some people in both those categories who are able to handle the emotions from these experiences, of course, but not everyone can. Even some adults are probably subject to these feelings getting the better of them. To restate my point, the immersion of video games can create strong, adverse emotions that can lead to horrible mental tendencies. I wouldn't say it's a common occurrence, since both those variables have to be true, but it does happen.

It's happened to me, once, and I'm a calm, non-violent person. I played GTA3 for hours a day after school when it first came out. We had a fire drill one day at school, and I was one of the last people out. Just ahead of me, there was a double-file line of about fifty people, and I caught myself picturing myself driving my car straight through all of them. That's one of the funnest things to do in the game, and my mind automatically went there in reality. I just laughed it off and told myself I'd been playing GTA too much, but I could easily see how a less emotionally stable person could end up acting on such thoughts. Again, it's not common, but it happens.

They're not even remotelysimilar or comparable. In RE, you kill things. In Manhunt, you practically torture. The point of Manhunt- the draw of it, really- is the different gory ways you can kill something. It's the reason for the game.

RE4 is a slightly gory action movie. Manhunt is a snuff film.

Spelunker

Snuff films show real death (IE: A&E on plain TV). Manhunt does not.

[QUOTE="Spelunker"]

They're not even remotelysimilar or comparable. In RE, you kill things. In Manhunt, you practically torture. The point of Manhunt- the draw of it, really- is the different gory ways you can kill something. It's the reason for the game.

RE4 is a slightly gory action movie. Manhunt is a snuff film.

bretthorror

Snuff films show real death (IE: A&E on plain TV). Manhunt does not.

And RE4 isn't an action movie. It's called a 'comparison', being made for illustrative sake.

[QUOTE="JustWiicredible"]People can 'switch' emotional boundaries. People don't seem to think highly enough of others to have such mentalfactulties.JordanElek

I agree. That's why I applied my argument to the people who don't possess those mental faculties very strongly yet, such as (obviously) young children, and certain teenagers. There will always be some people in both those categories who are able to handle the emotions from these experiences, of course, but not everyone can. Even some adults are probably subject to these feelings getting the better of them. To restate my point, the immersion of video games can create strong, adverse emotions that can lead to horrible mental tendencies. I wouldn't say it's a common occurrence, since both those variables have to be true, but it does happen.

It's happened to me, once, and I'm a calm, non-violent person. I played GTA3 for hours a day after school when it first came out. We had a fire drill one day at school, and I was one of the last people out. Just ahead of me, there was a double-file line of about fifty people, and I caught myself picturing myself driving my car straight through all of them. That's one of the funnest things to do in the game, and my mind automatically went there in reality. I just laughed it off and told myself I'd been playing GTA too much, but I could easily see how a less emotionally stable person could end up acting on such thoughts. Again, it's not common, but it happens.

Hence make it a 18 cert or 21 but they shouldn't have banned it. The pleasure of millions denied by the possibility of damage to a few that shouldn't be playing games anyway. There are much worse 'vices' in the world that don't get banned that cause real world damage and ruin lives but when people reach adulthood the goverment shouldn't interfere in the choices we make, what to see, what we take part in. For the goverment to say that i can kill people in real life (which i haveunfortunalty)but i can't pretend to kill people in a game is beyound stupid!