Should Suda Apologize To Nintendo Owners?

I'm sure people who frequent the Wii forum know that for the last week there have been many topics about Suda saying that he feels shortchanged by the Wii and it's audience when trying to sell his game. He says that his game is great and would really appeal to people all over but Nintendo has done such a bad job with the Wii that designers like himself don't get a fair shake.

People were very quick to support Suda saying his newest game is a masterpiece and soley because of Nintendo ineptness it was going to fail.

Now the real reviews are starting to trickle out (with IGN leading the way) and Suda's great game that everyone should buy seems some parts good, some parts bad, and some parts baffling. IGN which is a respected review site here has said things like "sloppy", "mundane", and "low tech". The reviewer posed the question that many people are going to have to rethink buying the game at full price.

So does Suda owe Wii owners an apology for pretty much saying we're too unaware of good games to not support No More Heroes in droves? To say this game is an uneven effort at best is downright complimenting the guy.

What are your thoughts on this?

Should Suda have just kept his mouth shut or do you feel this game (from what you've seen to this point) is the masterpiece that all Wii owners should own?

My thoughts: Suda's entitled to his opinions and knows more about how third party developers are treated than anyone on these boards could understand. I think that people were quick to call NMH a masterpiece, but IGN's review actually is the lowest rated one yet. I don't think anyone expected it to get reviews on par with Galaxy, or even Twilight Princess or even Metroid Prime 3, but if it matched Zack and Wiki or Super Paper Mario (which it's on track towards accomplishing), then we should be supporting it.

It's the best reviewed M-rated game released so far on the Wii, therefore it should be embraced as so. People who are upset about Zack and Wiki's poor sales should feel similar feelings about NMH as both are unique experiences that are being largely ignored by the general public.

I'm sure people who frequent the Wii forum know that for the last week there have been many topics about Suda saying that he feels shortchanged by the Wii and it's audience when trying to sell his game. He says that his game is great and would really appeal to people all over but Nintendo has done such a bad job with the Wii that designers like himself don't get a fair shake.

People were very quick to support Suda saying his newest game is a masterpiece and soley because of Nintendo ineptness it was going to fail.

Now the real reviews are starting to trickle out (with IGN leading the way) and Suda's great game that everyone should buy seems some parts good, some parts bad, and some parts baffling. IGN which is a respected review site here has said things like "sloppy", "mundane", and "low tech". The reviewer posed the question that many people are going to have to rethink buying the game at full price.

So does Suda owe Wii owners an apology for pretty much saying we're too unaware of good games to not support No More Heroes in droves? To say this game is an uneven effort at best is downright complimenting the guy.

What are your thoughts on this?

Should Suda have just kept his mouth shut or do you feel this game (from what you've seen to this point) is the masterpiece that all Wii owners should own?

Jaysonguy

yes he shouldve, because its the same as having the developers of Ninjabread Man say that their game did not sell not because of the games obvious lack of quality but rather for the fact that nintendo's games are too good. If Suda really thinks that this game is great for everyone, then maybe he should stop complaining about how he wants to make 360 games and was told to make a Wii game. Is it different, sure. Is it good, doesnt look that way. i find it funny how many people here are saying to buy the game because its so good...but have no experience with it whatsoever. i think the game is mostly hype, and nothing else.

My thoughts: Suda's entitled to his opinions and knows more about how third party developers are treated than anyone on these boards could understand. I think that people were quick to call NMH a masterpiece, but IGN's review actually is the lowest rated one yet. I don't think anyone expected it to get reviews on par with Galaxy, or even Twilight Princess or even Metroid Prime 3, but if it matched Zack and Wiki or Super Paper Mario (which it's on track towards accomplishing), then we should be supporting it.

It's the best reviewed M-rated game released so far on the Wii, therefore it should be embraced as so. People who are upset about Zack and Wiki's poor sales should feel similar feelings about NMH as both are unique experiences that are being largely ignored by the general public.

JAB991

i beg to differ. i think that RE4:WE got higher scores, but i'm assuming you mean it as an original game. From the looks of it, it seems on par with Manhunt2 and RE:UC

It seems that he should have just kept quiet, though I reserve the right to change my opinion once I get the chance to actually play it or at least see it in action (to be fair, the IGN review does offer praise for the game's core gameplay; it's only the overworld that they say is "sloppy" and "low tech"). If it fails, it'll be for reasons far out of nintendo's hands. Namely, not a lot of people know about it. Those that do seem like "lovers" or "haters" to me.

My thoughts: Suda's entitled to his opinions and knows more about how third party developers are treated than anyone on these boards could understand. I think that people were quick to call NMH a masterpiece, but IGN's review actually is the lowest rated one yet. I don't think anyone expected it to get reviews on par with Galaxy, or even Twilight Princess or even Metroid Prime 3, but if it matched Zack and Wiki or Super Paper Mario (which it's on track towards accomplishing), then we should be supporting it.

It's the best reviewed M-rated game released so far on the Wii, therefore it should be embraced as so. People who are upset about Zack and Wiki's poor sales should feel similar feelings about NMH as both are unique experiences that are being largely ignored by the general public.

JAB991

IGN was the first major site that actually didn't gloss over it's flaws. Other sites talking about tearing on the screen and frame rate issues but then followed it up with "complaints like that are only for the techies"

My main reason for reviews is to see if the game is broken and that's what the other sites failed to mention and when they did they made it seem like it's normal.

No, Suda doesn't owe anyone anything.

Despite the excellent cherrypicking job you've done on the review, of which the complaints you listed were primarily against the overworld, 7.8 is still a very good score, and that's still the lowest review it has received so far, out of the few reviews it has received.

Suda made a good game, Wii owners ignored it for games like Dynasty Warriors whatever, and it sold miserably. He has a right to be miffed at the poor sales the game had, especially since games like Mario and Sonic are selling off the charts.

Sigh...Everyone has different opinions about games. IGN felt that it was a little flawed so they gave it a 7.8. They didn't give it a 6.0 or lower. They liked it. Suda doesn't owe an apology to anyone. Big deal what people think. Opinions people....People count too much on Reviews. People hated Kirby Air Ride and I loved it. EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION!PhilliesPhan026

We posted at the same time so you couldn't see it.

My contention isn't with the opinion of the game it's with the fact that No More Heroes is a flawed game.

If I'm spouting off my mouth like Suda did I'm doing it over a game that is in 100% working order. Let people debate the story pacing or course of events but make sure it's fundamentally sound in it's workings.

No More Heroes is not.

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Sigh...Everyone has different opinions about games. IGN felt that it was a little flawed so they gave it a 7.8. They didn't give it a 6.0 or lower. They liked it. Suda doesn't owe an apology to anyone. Big deal what people think. Opinions people....People count too much on Reviews. People hated Kirby Air Ride and I loved it. EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION!Jaysonguy

We posted at the same time so you couldn't see it.

My contention isn't with the opinion of the game it's with the fact that No More Heroes is a flawed game.

If I'm spouting off my mouth like Suda did I'm doing it over a game that is in 100% working order. Let people debate the story pacing or course of events but make sure it's fundamentally sound in it's workings.

No More Heroes is not.

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Sigh...Everyone has different opinions about games. IGN felt that it was a little flawed so they gave it a 7.8. They didn't give it a 6.0 or lower. They liked it. Suda doesn't owe an apology to anyone. Big deal what people think. Opinions people....People count too much on Reviews. People hated Kirby Air Ride and I loved it. EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION!PhilliesPhan026

We posted at the same time so you couldn't see it.

My contention isn't with the opinion of the game it's with the fact that No More Heroes is a flawed game.

If I'm spouting off my mouth like Suda did I'm doing it over a game that is in 100% working order. Let people debate the story pacing or course of events but make sure it's fundamentally sound in it's workings.

No More Heroes is not.

So you're saying that IGN got a only broken copy and my experience wont be plagued with the same problems?

He has a right to be miffed at the poor sales the game had, especially since games like Mario and Sonic are selling off the charts.

metroidfood

Well what do you expect today allown i have seen 3 adverts on TV for Mario & Sonic, if they tried to get the game advertised more it might help sales, because no one is going to pick up a game they have never heard of (unless your trading in games then maybe) and only Suda is in a position to advertise it more it's not are job and it's not Nintendo's job.

apologize for speaking the truth :?

regardless of it's negative upbringing, he has a point. the fanbase consist of mostly casuals

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"][QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Sigh...Everyone has different opinions about games. IGN felt that it was a little flawed so they gave it a 7.8. They didn't give it a 6.0 or lower. They liked it. Suda doesn't owe an apology to anyone. Big deal what people think. Opinions people....People count too much on Reviews. People hated Kirby Air Ride and I loved it. EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION!Jaysonguy

We posted at the same time so you couldn't see it.

My contention isn't with the opinion of the game it's with the fact that No More Heroes is a flawed game.

If I'm spouting off my mouth like Suda did I'm doing it over a game that is in 100% working order. Let people debate the story pacing or course of events but make sure it's fundamentally sound in it's workings.

No More Heroes is not.

So you're saying that IGN got a only broken copy and my experience wont be plagued with the same problems?

Thank you. Some people are already acting as if the game is a complete flop...and they haven't even played it. Play the game before you make your judgment on the game. Its getting reviews in the 8s from everybody else which is on par with MoHH2 and thats a pretty dang good game. Don't let a couple of internet sites make the call for you as to if you like the game or not. Can't wait to get it in the morning.

Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.PhilliesPhan026

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.Jaysonguy

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

How much those broken elements factor into a game IS opinion though. Obviously IGN thought it mattered more than other reviewers.

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.metroidfood

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

How much those broken elements factor into a game IS opinion though. Obviously IGN thought it mattered more than other reviewers.

Yes, the flaws can be the same but they bother some people more then others.

The thing is that Suda is out there blasting Nintendo and it's owners. You don't think that he should put a game that works completely on the line for those statements?

If he made a game that was solid fundamentally and people don't buy it because of the storyline that's fine.

His game that he touts as the next best thing isn't even sound as far as it's workings.

So he's done just what other devs have done. Made a game that gets some things right and then complains when it doesn't sell well.

I never once thought it was gonna be a masterpiece, but I thought it would just a very fun action game that I would eventually buy. I knew better than to expect a masterpiece after playing Killer 7. I just had a feeling that it would be an uneven effort from the very beginning. I think a lot of people just overhyped it thinking it was gonna be the insanely awesome game, but now that the reviews are trickling in and it's hovering around the mid 8 range. That's not a bad average at all, people just got their hopes up.

To answer the question, I don't agree with Suda but I think he's entitled to his opinion.

So this is what you mean by an "off the wall" comment, hey? I get ya. I see what you did here.

I think, deep down, you like to piss people off. That's just a hunch, of course. ;)

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.metroidfood

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

How much those broken elements factor into a game IS opinion though. Obviously IGN thought it mattered more than other reviewers.

I hate to say it, but I agree here. IGN chose to focus on the overworld more than the other reviewers have. Does that mean that the others aren't telling the truth about the game. No, they just decided to pay more attention to the core gameplay.

Oh and Jasonguy, I love your posts, always so controversial.

[QUOTE="metroidfood"][QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.Jaysonguy

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

How much those broken elements factor into a game IS opinion though. Obviously IGN thought it mattered more than other reviewers.

Yes, the flaws can be the same but they bother some people more then others.

The thing is that Suda is out there blasting Nintendo and it's owners. You don't think that he should put a game that works completely on the line for those statements?

If he made a game that was solid fundamentally and people don't buy it because of the storyline that's fine.

His game that he touts as the next best thing isn't even sound as far as it's workings.

So he's done just what other devs have done. Made a game that gets some things right and then complains when it doesn't sell well.

By the way, I'm not sure if it was fully intentional on Suda's part, but some of the reviewers believe that the frame rate issues and sub-par graphics were supposed to be there. They said that it gives the game a more "old-school" feel to it.

Do I think it's intentional? Probably not, but I haven't played the game, so I can't really have an opinion.

If I get a chance to try the game out, I will, but this type of game typically isn't my thing.

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.Jaysonguy

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

i think that this is a game every one should buy.and it shows that the wii isnt just for young people and old people. yes suda should never have came out and said stuff about the game before it even came out. But that's like telling Microsoft not to brag about halo.....

now that the game is out i think in the next wiik in review podcast we are going to find out a lot more about this game wat bozon thinks is sloppy and all that.

[QUOTE="metroidfood"][QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.Jaysonguy

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

How much those broken elements factor into a game IS opinion though. Obviously IGN thought it mattered more than other reviewers.

Yes, the flaws can be the same but they bother some people more then others.

The thing is that Suda is out there blasting Nintendo and it's owners. You don't think that he should put a game that works completely on the line for those statements?

If he made a game that was solid fundamentally and people don't buy it because of the storyline that's fine.

His game that he touts as the next best thing isn't even sound as far as it's workings.

So he's done just what other devs have done. Made a game that gets some things right and then complains when it doesn't sell well.

He never blasted Nintendo and its owners about not buying it because it didn't get everything right. He stated that people were ignoring it in favor of more casual and shallow titles.

He never touted it as the "next best thing," he's just made a great game that sells extremely poorly.

[QUOTE="metroidfood"][QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.Jaysonguy

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

How much those broken elements factor into a game IS opinion though. Obviously IGN thought it mattered more than other reviewers.

Yes, the flaws can be the same but they bother some people more then others.

The thing is that Suda is out there blasting Nintendo and it's owners. You don't think that he should put a game that works completely on the line for those statements?

If he made a game that was solid fundamentally and people don't buy it because of the storyline that's fine.

His game that he touts as the next best thing isn't even sound as far as it's workings.

So he's done just what other devs have done. Made a game that gets some things right and then complains when it doesn't sell well.

OH NO THE HUB ISNT AS GOOD AS EXPECTED!!! END OF THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!

Galaxy didnt have as good of a hub as Sunshine... doesnt mean its a crappy game. The main things in this game are the missions and assassinations, not the driving around a hub world in a deserted town. That's not the main focus and as you see IGN said everything else was great except the overworld.

No. I would be pissed off too if i spent months of sweat, planning, and hard work developing one of the best games on the Wii and see it constantly get outsold by games like Mario Party 8.

You try to be too edgy Jaysonguy.

[QUOTE="the_leet_kid"]

Jaysonguy, your arrogance is astounding.

icarus212001

have you played and beat it? no? oh, thats a shamez.

...What? I'm not the one claiming how flawed it is... You should be telling the topic creator that...

To answer the general question, i think Suda can have his opinion and he didn't really say anything offensive.

About the game, i have good reference previews and i'm interested on it (haven't read any review yet) but yes the first time i looked at images it seemed to lack some presentation, it seems confusing art-style so that may have influenced the buyers too. Personally i was hoping that the action, history and characters would made visuals a small issue.

About the sale numbers which Suda complains, Remember that the Wii is selling a lot to a "new" mainstream audience, that's what explains sale numbers on Wii Fit for example. Such audience doesn't read reviews in sites, buys games based on advertising, friend's council, or even the way the box looks so like many said here before maybe suda should had had some more trouble showing the ppl why they should buy the game.

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.Jaysonguy

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

Jaysonguy, you are completely wrong. A flaw IS an opinion. Anything in a game is up for interpretation. I could call ANYTHING in ANY game a flaw and it would be my opinion. What determines whether or not something is a flaw is COMPLETELY subjective, regardless of what it is.

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.UnclePhilTMND

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

Jaysonguy, you are completely wrong. A flaw IS an opinion. Anything in a game is up for interpretation. I could call ANYTHING in ANY game a flaw and it would be my opinion. What determines whether or not something is a flaw is COMPLETELY subjective, regardless of what it is.

what if once you put the disc into your wii, it exploded? sounds like a flaw to me. sounds like something many people wont be happy about.

No. I would be pissed off too if i spent months of sweat, planning, and hard work developing one of the best games on the Wii and see it constantly get outsold by games like Mario Party 8.

You try to be too edgy Jaysonguy.

helium_flash

The problem is the game isn't out yet (or so i believe) so of course those other games will have sold more seeing how they have been released. (or was he expecting it to be pre-ordered lol)

when i bought the wii i only planned on buying 1st party games like mario and zelda and those are the only type of games ive purchased so far and ever plan on purchasing. third party stuff is why i bought a 360.

i guess im one of the reasones the wiis 3rd party support sucks and is dying? apparently thats what Suda is saying.

[QUOTE="UnclePhilTMND"][QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.icarus212001

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

Jaysonguy, you are completely wrong. A flaw IS an opinion. Anything in a game is up for interpretation. I could call ANYTHING in ANY game a flaw and it would be my opinion. What determines whether or not something is a flaw is COMPLETELY subjective, regardless of what it is.

what if once you put the disc into your wii and then it exploded. sounds like a flaw to me. sounds like many people wont be happy about.

I'm sure there are people out there who would pay $50 and whatever they paid for their Wii to see that happen. Regardless, my point still stands.

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.UnclePhilTMND

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

Jaysonguy, you are completely wrong. A flaw IS an opinion. Anything in a game is up for interpretation. I could call ANYTHING in ANY game a flaw and it would be my opinion. What determines whether or not something is a flaw is COMPLETELY subjective, regardless of what it is.

So, by that logic, you would say that Big Rigs is a good game?

If the game is technically flawed, then the game is flawed. No opinion there, that is a fact. If the frame rate is at 20FPS, that is an issue.

It is an opinion if you were to say "yeah, so there are technical flaws, if you look past that, the game is good".

Ignoring something like a technical flaw is being subjective, because you're not looking at the game as a whole.

[QUOTE="icarus212001"][QUOTE="UnclePhilTMND"][QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="PhilliesPhan026"]Do I need to say this again. If you have a pulse, you have an opinion. IGN has an opinion. The only way to find out if the game is good or not is to play it yourself instead of assuming.UnclePhilTMND

You've missed my point yet again so I will repeat it

A broken element in a game is not an opinion, it's fact. A flaw in a game is not an opinion it's fact.

I'm talking about facts here, if you'd like to talk opinion you're in the wrong thread.

Jaysonguy, you are completely wrong. A flaw IS an opinion. Anything in a game is up for interpretation. I could call ANYTHING in ANY game a flaw and it would be my opinion. What determines whether or not something is a flaw is COMPLETELY subjective, regardless of what it is.

what if once you put the disc into your wii and then it exploded. sounds like a flaw to me. sounds like many people wont be happy about.

I'm sure there are people out there who would pay $50 and whatever they paid for their Wii to see that happen. Regardless, my point still stands.

no it doesnt. you know that if your wii burst into flames right in front of you without notice you'd be infuriated. thats known as a flaw. its a fact. not an opinion.

[QUOTE="helium_flash"]

No. I would be pissed off too if i spent months of sweat, planning, and hard work developing one of the best games on the Wii and see it constantly get outsold by games like Mario Party 8.

You try to be too edgy Jaysonguy.

spike6958

The problem is the game isn't out yet (or so i believe) so of course those other games will have sold more seeing how they have been released. (or was he expecting it to be pre-ordered lol)

And that is what we are talking about: Japan. Suda didn't mention a thing about the Western markets. The game has gotten good to excellent scores so far, and averages a high AA. I think we can judge the situation.