60 children, 15 women, 15 men killed after NATO bombing raid

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argetlam00

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#1 argetlam00
Member since 2006 • 6573 Posts

Ouch....

QUOTE:

Tensions increased today between Afghanistan's president, Hamid Karzai, and US and Nato troops, with the government ordering a review of foreign military activities amid claims that dozens of civilians have died in raids and air strikes over the past week.

The ministries of foreign affairs and defence said they would seek to regulate raids with a status of forces agreement and a negotiated end to "air strikes on civilian targets, uncoordinated house searches and illegal detention of Afghan civilians".

The UN mission in Afghanistan has backed the government. Afghan and foreign soldiers entered the village of Nawabad in Shindand district last Friday and called in air strikes, villagers told UN investigators.

The UN special envoy to Afghanistan, Kai Eide, said in a statement that an investigation "found convincing evidence, based on the testimony of eyewitnesses and others, that some 90 civilians were killed, including 60 children, 15 women and 15 men. Fifteen other villagers were wounded.

"The destruction from aerial bombardment was clearly evident with seven to eight houses having been destroyed, with serious damage to many others," Eide said. "Local residents were able to confirm the number of casualties, including names, age and gender of the victims.

"This is matter of grave concern to the United Nations. I have repeatedly made clear that the safety and welfare of civilians must be considered above all else during the planning and conduct of all military operations.

"The impact of such operations undermines the trust and confidence of the Afghan people in efforts to build a just, peaceful and law-abiding state."

The US military has launched an investigation after saying it was unaware of any civilians killed. An American spokesman said the strike targeted a known Taliban commander and killed 30 militants.

Captain Mike Windsor, a spokesman for Nato, said the force had not received any official notification about the government decision. He said Nato's mission was based on a UN mandate and carried out at the invitation of the Afghan government.

In an angry statement, the government said officials had "repeatedly discussed the issue of civilian casualties with the international forces and asked for all air raids on civilian targets, especially in Afghan villages, to be stopped".

"The issues of uncoordinated house searches and harassing civilians have also been of concern to the government of Afghanistan, which has been shared with the commanders of international forces in Afghanistan," it said.

"Unfortunately, to date, our demands have not been addressed. Rather, more civilians, including women and children, are losing their lives as a result of air raids."

/QUOTE

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/26/afghanistan.nato

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-Katsuri-

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#2 -Katsuri-
Member since 2008 • 61883 Posts
That is sad, but worse things are shown in the news.
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Oleg_Huzwog

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#4 Oleg_Huzwog
Member since 2007 • 21885 Posts

Afghan and foreign soldiers entered the village of Nawabad in Shindand district last Friday and called in air strikes, villagers told UN investigators.argetlam00

Afghan soldiers took part in ordering the strike?

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argetlam00

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#5 argetlam00
Member since 2006 • 6573 Posts

[QUOTE="argetlam00"]Afghan and foreign soldiers entered the village of Nawabad in Shindand district last Friday and called in air strikes, villagers told UN investigators.Oleg_Huzwog

Afghan soldiers took part in ordering the strike?

Yep. They were fighting the Taliban and called NATO for help.

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duxup

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#6 duxup
Member since 2002 • 43443 Posts
Sad news.
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mrbojangles25

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#7 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60850 Posts
[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]
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II_Seraphim_II

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#8 II_Seraphim_II
Member since 2007 • 20534 Posts
Are the women or children from Western nations? No? then the world doesnt care. Sick but true. Nato can kill all the afghani's it wants and no one would say anything. Sure you would have human rights watch say sum stuff, but when as anyone ever listened to HRW when it stated sumthing negative against the west?
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argetlam00

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#9 argetlam00
Member since 2006 • 6573 Posts

Are the women or children from Western nations? No? then the world doesnt care. Sick but true. Nato can kill all the afghani's it wants and no one would say anything. Sure you would have human rights watch say sum stuff, but when as anyone ever listened to HRW when it stated sumthing negative against the west?II_Seraphim_II

What disgusts me, is claims like that and how NATO even dares to criticize Russia for its actions in Georgia after committing atrocities such as this. I'll tell you why you should care if you value innocent life with so little regard. Every civillian dead is a bonus to the resolve of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, strengthening their recruitment arm. The contempt for NATO soldiers in the Middle-East is crazy high. It's not going to be much londer until the whole country rises against America and joins the Terrorists against them.

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mrbojangles25

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#10 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60850 Posts

Are the women or children from Western nations? No? then the world doesnt care. Sick but true. Nato can kill all the afghani's it wants and no one would say anything. Sure you would have human rights watch say sum stuff, but when as anyone ever listened to HRW when it stated sumthing negative against the west?II_Seraphim_II

yes, but it was an accident.

I know, not comforting. And no less tragic.

But NATO and Western Society is not the demon you make it out to be. And we do care that it happens.

here just is not a whole lot we can do about it except feel horrible, and you cant expect a person to feel horrible for people he or she doesnt know because people will die violently forever.

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II_Seraphim_II

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#11 II_Seraphim_II
Member since 2007 • 20534 Posts

[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"]Are the women or children from Western nations? No? then the world doesnt care. Sick but true. Nato can kill all the afghani's it wants and no one would say anything. Sure you would have human rights watch say sum stuff, but when as anyone ever listened to HRW when it stated sumthing negative against the west?mrbojangles25

yes, but it was an accident.

I know, not comforting. And no less tragic.

But NATO and Western Society is not the demon you make it out to be. And we do care that it happens.

here just is not a whole lot we can do about it except feel horrible, and you cant expect a person to feel horrible for people he or she doesnt know because people will die violently forever.

Hey im not demonizing the western society, im part of it :P Im demonizing the entire world for not caring. People have now become currency, where 1 american life is worth 20 afghan lives. If these were all american citizens do you think we would have gotten such a luke warm response? Its disgusting.

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mrbojangles25

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#12 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60850 Posts
[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"]Are the women or children from Western nations? No? then the world doesnt care. Sick but true. Nato can kill all the afghani's it wants and no one would say anything. Sure you would have human rights watch say sum stuff, but when as anyone ever listened to HRW when it stated sumthing negative against the west?II_Seraphim_II

yes, but it was an accident.

I know, not comforting. And no less tragic.

But NATO and Western Society is not the demon you make it out to be. And we do care that it happens.

here just is not a whole lot we can do about it except feel horrible, and you cant expect a person to feel horrible for people he or she doesnt know because people will die violently forever.

Hey im not demonizing the western society, im part of it :P Im demonizing the entire world for not caring. People have now become currency, where 1 american life is worth 20 afghan lives. If these were all american citizens do you think we would have gotten such a luke warm response? Its disgusting.

ahhh in that respect, yes, I can see where youre coming from.

Still, its hard to not approach it from a rational standpoint, solely because it can make you feel better. I hear of a soldier dying and I think "Oh, that is someone's son or daughter" or "damn, that was my mechanic who worked on my family's cars for years".

You cant say that about Afghanis.

I guess what I am saying is: let the West worry about the West, and let the Afghanis worry about Afghanistan. I mean, maybe thats the whole problem...maybe Afghanistan doesnt care enough to make the changes needed to stop the war?

Bah, I am getting off track...

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markop2003

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#13 markop2003
Member since 2005 • 29917 Posts
it's war... people die
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argetlam00

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#14 argetlam00
Member since 2006 • 6573 Posts
[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"][QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"]Are the women or children from Western nations? No? then the world doesnt care. Sick but true. Nato can kill all the afghani's it wants and no one would say anything. Sure you would have human rights watch say sum stuff, but when as anyone ever listened to HRW when it stated sumthing negative against the west?mrbojangles25

yes, but it was an accident.

I know, not comforting. And no less tragic.

But NATO and Western Society is not the demon you make it out to be. And we do care that it happens.

here just is not a whole lot we can do about it except feel horrible, and you cant expect a person to feel horrible for people he or she doesnt know because people will die violently forever.

Hey im not demonizing the western society, im part of it :P Im demonizing the entire world for not caring. People have now become currency, where 1 american life is worth 20 afghan lives. If these were all american citizens do you think we would have gotten such a luke warm response? Its disgusting.

ahhh in that respect, yes, I can see where youre coming from.

Still, its hard to not approach it from a rational standpoint, solely because it can make you feel better. I hear of a soldier dying and I think "Oh, that is someone's son or daughter" or "damn, that was my mechanic who worked on my family's cars for years".

You cant say that about Afghanis.

I guess what I am saying is: let the West worry about the West, and let the Afghanis worry about Afghanistan. I mean, maybe thats the whole problem...maybe Afghanistan doesnt care enough to make the changes needed to stop the war?

Of course, we are the ones who are blowing them up....They have made the changes to stop the war, but the war will never end. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda will never give up until America either withdrawls or is destroyed. America is the only country that can make the changes to stop these deaths. The first step is to stop air strikes at civillian villages and the second is to withdraw. This war will never end unless this happens and if America continues killing civillians, the country will rebel against them and they WILL lose the war. Thrown out of Afghanistan just like they were thrown out of vietnam.

Bah, I am getting off track...

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mrbojangles25

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#15 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60850 Posts
[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"][QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"][QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"]Are the women or children from Western nations? No? then the world doesnt care. Sick but true. Nato can kill all the afghani's it wants and no one would say anything. Sure you would have human rights watch say sum stuff, but when as anyone ever listened to HRW when it stated sumthing negative against the west?argetlam00

yes, but it was an accident.

I know, not comforting. And no less tragic.

But NATO and Western Society is not the demon you make it out to be. And we do care that it happens.

here just is not a whole lot we can do about it except feel horrible, and you cant expect a person to feel horrible for people he or she doesnt know because people will die violently forever.

Hey im not demonizing the western society, im part of it :P Im demonizing the entire world for not caring. People have now become currency, where 1 american life is worth 20 afghan lives. If these were all american citizens do you think we would have gotten such a luke warm response? Its disgusting.

ahhh in that respect, yes, I can see where youre coming from.

Still, its hard to not approach it from a rational standpoint, solely because it can make you feel better. I hear of a soldier dying and I think "Oh, that is someone's son or daughter" or "damn, that was my mechanic who worked on my family's cars for years".

You cant say that about Afghanis.

I guess what I am saying is: let the West worry about the West, and let the Afghanis worry about Afghanistan. I mean, maybe thats the whole problem...maybe Afghanistan doesnt care enough to make the changes needed to stop the war?

Of course, we are the ones who are blowing them up....They have made the changes to stop the war, but the war will never end. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda will never give up until America either withdrawls or is destroyed. America is the only country that can make the changes to stop these deaths. The first step is to stop air strikes at civillian villages and the second is to withdraw. This war will never end unless this happens and if America continues killing civillians, the country will rebel against them and they WILL lose the war. Thrown out of Afghanistan just like they were thrown out of vietnam.

Bah, I am getting off track...

I see where you are coming from, but even though the US invaded Afghanistan it is still up to the Afghanis. The second they want the Taliban and fundamentalists out of their country, and as soon as they do something about it, the US will get out.

With that said, I cant help but agree with you, which is why I find "The War on Terror" a silly, silly idea. The war on terror? Terrorism has been around, in some form, for thousands of years. And it will continue to be. The US has sort of dug its own grave because a lot of us are so commited to this war and, worse of all, we see it as something that can actually be accomplished.

No, we cant go to war on terrorism. We can retaliate and get those held responsible, but there will always be terrorism and we cant go around invading countries because of it.

Well, we can...we do have to defend ourselves. We just cant do it for so long.

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SpaceMoose

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#16 SpaceMoose
Member since 2004 • 10789 Posts

That seems to be a recurring theme lately. Just remember that all of those innocents have to die now so that innocent people don't die in future terrorist attacks which theoretically may have been somehow prevented by all of these bombing raids...

Er, yeah, uh, something like that.

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Ontain

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#17 Ontain
Member since 2005 • 25501 Posts
air strikes are known to be very bad because of this. the deaths help give the taliban support. what we really need is more forces there but sadly most of our forces are in a country that doesn't want them and shouldn't have been in.
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MetalGear_Ninty

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#18 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts
NATO forces need to be more careful. Yes, we know it was an accident, but such accidents should never happen. NATO need to take measures to ensure such accidents never occur again.
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Oleg_Huzwog

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#19 Oleg_Huzwog
Member since 2007 • 21885 Posts

NATO forces need to be more careful. Yes, we know it was an accident, but such accidents should never happen. NATO need to take measures to ensure such accidents never occur again.MetalGear_Ninty

There are no reasonable measures that can be done.

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MetalGear_Ninty

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#20 MetalGear_Ninty
Member since 2008 • 6337 Posts

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]NATO forces need to be more careful. Yes, we know it was an accident, but such accidents should never happen. NATO need to take measures to ensure such accidents never occur again.Oleg_Huzwog

There are no reasonable measures that can be done.

Surely, there must be some way, or else how could they distinguish between the Taliban and civillians.

I don't know, even thermal imaging would have conveyed that there were children within the buildings.

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3eyedrazorback

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#21 3eyedrazorback
Member since 2005 • 16380 Posts
Of course we would deny anything BAD that we have done by covering it up by saying..."Oh, we were actually targeting some huge leader of the Taliban. Sorry we killed your kids. Collateral damage. Oh well."
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Oleg_Huzwog

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#22 Oleg_Huzwog
Member since 2007 • 21885 Posts
Surely, there must be some way, or else how could they distinguish between the Taliban and civillians.

I don't know, even thermal imaging would have conveyed that there were children within the buildings.

MetalGear_Ninty

No, thermal imaging would not have conveyed that. This isn't a spy movie. Ground troops can't see through walls before ordering air support.

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argetlam00

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#23 argetlam00
Member since 2006 • 6573 Posts
[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]Surely, there must be some way, or else how could they distinguish between the Taliban and civillians.

I don't know, even thermal imaging would have conveyed that there were children within the buildings.

Oleg_Huzwog

No, thermal imaging would not have conveyed that. This isn't a spy movie. Ground troops can't see through walls before ordering air support.

Im sure NATO knew exactly what would happen after they bombed a village full of people to kill a bunch of Taliban. They should ban airstrikes against villages and use helicopters/ground troops to fight the Taliban in Urban environments. Even the Afghan government says this.

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Kikouken

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#24 Kikouken
Member since 2006 • 15913 Posts
That sucks.
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helium_flash

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#25 helium_flash
Member since 2007 • 9244 Posts
So was this the US' fault or UN's fault?
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argetlam00

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#26 argetlam00
Member since 2006 • 6573 Posts

So was this the US' fault or UN's fault?helium_flash

NATO, which is led by America in the invasion of Afghanistan/Iraq. How can it be the UN's fault? Is the Red Cross gonna start air-striking civillians now or something?

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#27 Vilot_Hero
Member since 2008 • 4522 Posts
Sad news. I never liked NATO to begin with.
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helium_flash

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#28 helium_flash
Member since 2007 • 9244 Posts

[QUOTE="helium_flash"]So was this the US' fault or UN's fault?argetlam00

NATO, which is led by America in the invasion of Afghanistan/Iraq. How can it be the UN's fault? Is the Red Cross gonna start air-striking civillians now or something?

Woops I got NATO and UN mixed up.
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mohan88

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#29 mohan88
Member since 2006 • 4839 Posts
Very sad. :(
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#30 jetpower3
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[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"]Are the women or children from Western nations? No? then the world doesnt care. Sick but true. Nato can kill all the afghani's it wants and no one would say anything. Sure you would have human rights watch say sum stuff, but when as anyone ever listened to HRW when it stated sumthing negative against the west?argetlam00

What disgusts me, is claims like that and how NATO even dares to criticize Russia for its actions in Georgia after committing atrocities such as this. I'll tell you why you should care if you value innocent life with so little regard. Every civillian dead is a bonus to the resolve of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, strengthening their recruitment arm. The contempt for NATO soldiers in the Middle-East is crazy high. It's not going to be much londer until the whole country rises against America and joins the Terrorists against them.

It's no different than what happened in Vietnam and Cambodia. Sadly, everyone forgot about that too. And the US and SEATO/NATO let both of those nations down when they needed them the most.

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mrbojangles25

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#31 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60850 Posts
[QUOTE="argetlam00"]

[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"]Are the women or children from Western nations? No? then the world doesnt care. Sick but true. Nato can kill all the afghani's it wants and no one would say anything. Sure you would have human rights watch say sum stuff, but when as anyone ever listened to HRW when it stated sumthing negative against the west?jetpower3

What disgusts me, is claims like that and how NATO even dares to criticize Russia for its actions in Georgia after committing atrocities such as this. I'll tell you why you should care if you value innocent life with so little regard. Every civillian dead is a bonus to the resolve of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, strengthening their recruitment arm. The contempt for NATO soldiers in the Middle-East is crazy high. It's not going to be much londer until the whole country rises against America and joins the Terrorists against them.

It's no different than what happened in Vietnam and Cambodia. Sadly, everyone forgot about that too. And the US and SEATO/NATO let both of those nations down when they needed them the most.

Everyone forgot about Vietnam? Are you serious?

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freshgman

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#32 freshgman
Member since 2005 • 12241 Posts
That is just messed up
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jetpower3

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#33 jetpower3
Member since 2005 • 11631 Posts
[QUOTE="jetpower3"][QUOTE="argetlam00"]

[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"]Are the women or children from Western nations? No? then the world doesnt care. Sick but true. Nato can kill all the afghani's it wants and no one would say anything. Sure you would have human rights watch say sum stuff, but when as anyone ever listened to HRW when it stated sumthing negative against the west?mrbojangles25

What disgusts me, is claims like that and how NATO even dares to criticize Russia for its actions in Georgia after committing atrocities such as this. I'll tell you why you should care if you value innocent life with so little regard. Every civillian dead is a bonus to the resolve of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, strengthening their recruitment arm. The contempt for NATO soldiers in the Middle-East is crazy high. It's not going to be much londer until the whole country rises against America and joins the Terrorists against them.

It's no different than what happened in Vietnam and Cambodia. Sadly, everyone forgot about that too. And the US and SEATO/NATO let both of those nations down when they needed them the most.

Everyone forgot about Vietnam? Are you serious?

At the very end of the war they did. Do you remember when the war ended?

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Fuzzy_Bear123

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#34 Fuzzy_Bear123
Member since 2007 • 638 Posts
[QUOTE="jetpower3"][QUOTE="argetlam00"]

[QUOTE="II_Seraphim_II"]Are the women or children from Western nations? No? then the world doesnt care. Sick but true. Nato can kill all the afghani's it wants and no one would say anything. Sure you would have human rights watch say sum stuff, but when as anyone ever listened to HRW when it stated sumthing negative against the west?mrbojangles25

What disgusts me, is claims like that and how NATO even dares to criticize Russia for its actions in Georgia after committing atrocities such as this. I'll tell you why you should care if you value innocent life with so little regard. Every civillian dead is a bonus to the resolve of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, strengthening their recruitment arm. The contempt for NATO soldiers in the Middle-East is crazy high. It's not going to be much londer until the whole country rises against America and joins the Terrorists against them.

It's no different than what happened in Vietnam and Cambodia. Sadly, everyone forgot about that too. And the US and SEATO/NATO let both of those nations down when they needed them the most.

Everyone forgot about Vietnam? Are you serious?

I think he is referring to the native population of those areas. The US air force decimated those two countries with countless airstrikes, and killed a lot of civilians with their army and marine corps.

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warrenjohnmike

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#35 warrenjohnmike
Member since 2007 • 25 Posts
Who cares? They were probably being trained to become suicide bombers.
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Fuzzy_Bear123

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#36 Fuzzy_Bear123
Member since 2007 • 638 Posts

Who cares? They were probably being trained to become suicide bombers.warrenjohnmike

Wow, I hope that was sarcasm.

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II_Seraphim_II

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#37 II_Seraphim_II
Member since 2007 • 20534 Posts

Who cares? They were probably being trained to become suicide bombers.warrenjohnmike

Wow, so I guess we shouldnt care about US civilian who die in terrorist attacks.

"Who cares? they were probably gonna be trained into troops who will bomb innocent children" :|