80,000 protesting outside Greek Parliament - It's gettin' ugly

Thoughts?! I can understand their anger and have nothing against these people

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/07/greece-austerity-protests-violence?CMP=twt_gu

Athens ablaze as protesters try to storm parliament

Petrol bombs thrown and teargas and water cannons used as 80,000 protest against proposed austerity measures

Violence has erupted on the streets of Athens as a crowd of at least 80,000 gathered to protest against fresh austerity measures being voted on by the Greek parliament.

Police fired teargas, stun grenades and water cannons in an attempt to prevent a small group of protesters, some of them throwing petrol bombs that engulfed at least one officer (above), from storming the parliament building.

News agencies reported smoke and small fires in the streets near Syntagma Square, the scene of the biggest protests seen in the Greek capital in recent months.

The angry scenes came at the end of a two-day general strike called to oppose a 13.5bn (£10.7bn) package of cuts demanded by the European Union, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund in return for a financial lifeline to prevent the government running out of money. Greece's central bank has seen a mass resignation of 45 officials angry at wage caps imposed as part of the belt-tightening. The parliamentary debate was briefly halted when staff and opposition MPs walked out. But despite the protests inside and outside the chamber, the coalition government of Antonis Samaras was confident on Wednesday nightthat it would secure parliamentary approval for the cuts needed to trigger the 31bn bailout.

Greece should just change its motto to "Things can always be worse"

Greece should just change its motto to "Things can always be worse"

jim_shorts

"Just remember, you could be Greece."

Petrol bombs is going too far.

The whole situation's a big fat mess. Hard to say what to advise them to do now.

Petrol bombs is going too far.

The whole situation's a big fat mess. Hard to say what to advise them to do now.

Audacitron

They're living their great depression, only worse since the government has no power or the finances to fight it. I suppose it's only time before it gets much worse.

Good thing I wasn't planning on visiting Greece anyway....LJS9502_basic

if you visit greece you dont go to athens,you go to the islands to have fun and bang central/northern european girls:P

It' s either these austerity measures or Greece will go bankrupt and eventually will get tossed out of the Euro Zone so I see these measures as the lesser of two evils. Still there are people who are really really desperate witnessing their lives get turned upside down. I' ve heard that in order to repay the country' s debt each person on the planet would need to contribute with 35 euros...

The Eurozone was plain fvcked up from the moment it was created. I have no idea how France and Germany managed to propose an idea that would inevitably lead to fiscal disaster on the periphery nations just because it would make them a little bit more money, or how they managed to persuade said periphery to choose said fiscal disaster and loose money to France and Germany at the same time, or how all of them can be so stupid as to try going for demand-reducing austerity measures in a time of demand-driven economic stagnation in order to defeat the public deficits caused by said demand-driven economic stagnation.

To paraphrase someone on another forum, using austerity to solve fiscal insolvency issues is like trying to solve intestinal cancer by stabbing yourself in the gut with a carcinogenic dagger.

Seems Greece is having a visit from their old pal Eris.NiKva

These guys are sick. This is like whats happening in the US people dont realize that huge debt could make an impact on your life. Propose a few cutbacks to save the country and people go nuts? Thats the sense of entitlement

It's the population that voted in the politicians that enacted the programs that the voters wanted. Now of course it's somebody else's fault that they're in such dire straights.

I have no sympathy for them at all, in fact I find it amusing.

These guys are sick. This is like whats happening in the US people dont realize that huge debt could make an impact on your life. Propose a few cutbacks to save the country and people go nuts? Thats the sense of entitlement

AdamPA1006

Pretty much how I feel. We'll see the same riots in America when food stamps and welfare are cut. Generation upon generation of Americans have become used to "have as many kids as you want, Big Brother will pay for them."

The sense of entitlement here in America is just as bad. Oi Vey, dark times are coming.

Man, I wonder what is it about human psychology that makes people happily condemn and generalize an entire nation-state without bothering to do any basic research. Is anyone here who's calling Greeks lazy and entitled aware of the fact that Greeks are the hardest working people in the Eurozone by number of hours worked, and that on average their workers work 600 hours more than the stereotypically industrious Germans and Dutch?

Man, I wonder what is it about human psychology that makes people happily condemn and generalize an entire nation-state without bothering to do any basic research. Is anyone here who's calling Greeks lazy and entitled aware of the fact that Greeks are the hardest working people in the Eurozone by number of hours worked, and that on average their workers work 600 hours more than the stereotypically industrious Germans and Dutch?

Barbariser

When a large portion of the population of a country is employed by a government and worse, fail to pay taxes, the government is pretty much screwed. It does not matter how many hours a person works, if they are not paying taxes, they are not paying into the system to keep the country afloat. That also includes here in the US. If you are not working and not paying into the government (taxes), one should not complain about programs being cut or reduced.

[QUOTE="Barbariser"]

Man, I wonder what is it about human psychology that makes people happily condemn and generalize an entire nation-state without bothering to do any basic research. Is anyone here who's calling Greeks lazy and entitled aware of the fact that Greeks are the hardest working people in the Eurozone by number of hours worked, and that on average their workers work 600 hours more than the stereotypically industrious Germans and Dutch?

WhiteKnight77

When a large portion of the population of a country is employed by a government and worse, fail to pay taxes, the government is pretty much screwed. It does not matter how many hours a person works, if they are not paying taxes, they are not paying into the system to keep the country afloat. That also includes here in the US. If you are not working and not paying into the government (taxes), one should not complain about programs being cut or reduced.

Irrelevant to the point that Greeks are not lazier or more entitled than other Europeans. And even in Greece, tax evasion occurs among a minority of citizens, primarily upper-class workers; so why should the tax-payers (majority of the population) of Greece not be enraged at the cutting of social programs that in all probability are quite vital to their personal economies? And if insufficient tax revenue is such an important issue, why would the government halve corporate tax rates from 2000-2010 and only raise it by 4% in 2011, when they have been suffering from deficits before that?

These guys are sick. This is like whats happening in the US people dont realize that huge debt could make an impact on your life. Propose a few cutbacks to save the country and people go nuts? Thats the sense of entitlement

AdamPA1006

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

When a large portion of the population of a country is employed by a government and worse, fail to pay taxes, the government is pretty much screwed. It does not matter how many hours a person works, if they are not paying taxes, they are not paying into the system to keep the country afloat. That also includes here in the US. If you are not working and not paying into the government (taxes), one should not complain about programs being cut or reduced.

Barbariser

Irrelevant to the point that Greeks are not lazier or more entitled than other Europeans. And even in Greece, tax evasion occurs among a minority of citizens, primarily upper-class workers; so why should the tax-payers (majority of the population) of Greece not be enraged at the cutting of social programs that in all probability are quite vital to their personal economies? And if insufficient tax revenue is such an important issue, why would the government halve corporate tax rates from 2000-2010 and only raise it by 4% in 2011, when they have been suffering from deficits before that?

I can't answer that, but the first time that the Greeks were given a bailout, they should have realized that austerity measures were in order. Now that Greece is in need of a second bailout, it should be plain as day. If the Geek government cut corporate tax rates, then they were stupid. I would say the same about our government here in the US too should they do that (and yes, they have and are stupid for it). If the upper class workers in Greece are not paying taxes, then it is up to the government to take them to task. If they fail to do so, then they have no one to blame but themselves.

Part of Greece's problems are from the fact that 33.33% of the Greek population is employed by the government whereas it is 8% in the US while it is around 20% in the UK as well as the fact that there are tax evaders. Until Greece goes after tax evaders, cuts government payrolls and entitlements can they get a grip on their economy. Austerity measures are the tip of the iceburg for Greece and the people need to wake up to that fact.

I know where I'm not going this winter.

These guys are sick. This is like whats happening in the US people dont realize that huge debt could make an impact on your life. Propose a few cutbacks to save the country and people go nuts? Thats the sense of entitlement

AdamPA1006

This is what happens when a country with a quasi-gold standard suffers a depression. -Sun_Tzu-

That and the over-inflated sense of entitlement.

Propose a few cutbacks to save the countryAdamPA1006

These guys are sick. This is like whats happening in the US people dont realize that huge debt could make an impact on your life. Propose a few cutbacks to save the country and people go nuts? Thats the sense of entitlement

AdamPA1006

The Eurozone was plain fvcked up from the moment it was created. I have no idea how France and Germany managed to propose an idea that would inevitably lead to fiscal disaster on the periphery nations just because it would make them a little bit more money, or how they managed to persuade said periphery to choose said fiscal disaster and loose money to France and Germany at the same time, or how all of them can be so stupid as to try going for demand-reducing austerity measures in a time of demand-driven economic stagnation in order to defeat the public deficits caused by said demand-driven economic stagnation.

To paraphrase someone on another forum, using austerity to solve fiscal insolvency issues is like trying to solve intestinal cancer by stabbing yourself in the gut with a carcinogenic dagger.

Barbariser

[QUOTE="AdamPA1006"]Propose a few cutbacks to save the countryMrPraline

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

[QUOTE="Barbariser"]

Man, I wonder what is it about human psychology that makes people happily condemn and generalize an entire nation-state without bothering to do any basic research. Is anyone here who's calling Greeks lazy and entitled aware of the fact that Greeks are the hardest working people in the Eurozone by number of hours worked, and that on average their workers work 600 hours more than the stereotypically industrious Germans and Dutch?

Barbariser

When a large portion of the population of a country is employed by a government and worse, fail to pay taxes, the government is pretty much screwed. It does not matter how many hours a person works, if they are not paying taxes, they are not paying into the system to keep the country afloat. That also includes here in the US. If you are not working and not paying into the government (taxes), one should not complain about programs being cut or reduced.

Irrelevant to the point that Greeks are not lazier or more entitled than other Europeans. And even in Greece, tax evasion occurs among a minority of citizens, primarily upper-class workers; so why should the tax-payers (majority of the population) of Greece not be enraged at the cutting of social programs that in all probability are quite vital to their personal economies? And if insufficient tax revenue is such an important issue, why would the government halve corporate tax rates from 2000-2010 and only raise it by 4% in 2011, when they have been suffering from deficits before that?

While I agree austerity is not the solution (neither is spending, mind you, it's more complicated than that), the Greek are not the hardest working citizens. You should not look at hours worked, you should look at productivity, which is quite low for Greece.

Tax evasion is not a minority. Greece is extremely bad at collecting taxes compared to France/Germany. They're loosing billions of euros a year because of tax evasion. Also, Greece is rampant with corruption. Politicians buy their votes through handouts. Obviously citizens have grown dependent on these, but it is not sustainable.Mochyc

Low Greek productivity is due to their relative inefficiency, which is generally explained by the fact their technology isn't up to the standard of France or Germany. French workers are several times more productive than Chinese ones who work much longer hours, doesn't make Chinese people lazier than them.

Even if it's extremely high, at 40% of the population tax evasion still only occurs among a minority of Greeks. What I don't dispute is that the Greek government has behaved extremely foolishly, by adopting the Euro and then getting caught falsifying financial reports, which fvcked their financial reputation and deprived them of any means of defeating the effects of the Great Recession.

France and Germany still played a role in this mess by being the first to violate the same financial regulations that the Greeks did and getting nothing for it, and pushing for the Euro's implementation in the first place without a strong system of financial regulation. Either way, they're paying the price for turning half the E.U. into import dumping grounds for themselves and refusing to prevent them from fiscal collapse without forcing them to undergo economically destructive fiscal consolidation policies. The Greek people are ones who got screwed the hardest here and are stereotyped as lazy entitled morons by the rest of the world despite working harder than everyone in Europe - it should come as no surprise that they're mad pissed and xenophobic as hell about it.