A coincidence of astronomical odds

I once had a particular pm correspondence with gabuex in which we questioned and discussed views on the possible origins of the universe. He had his ideas (pro creator), and I had mine (no creator)

i recall the exchange being awesome, so i figured i would take the core of the theme from our exchange to you guys

'It appears that there is a set of fundamental physical constants that are such that had they been very slightly different, the universe would have been void of intelligent life. It's as if we're balancing on a knife’s edge.

Some philosophers and physicists take the 'fine-tuning' of these constants to be an explanandum that cries out for an explanans, but is this the right way to think?'

- Nick Bostom, Professor, University of Oxford

When I was kid, I often wondered to myself: "What makes a scientist believe in a Creator?"

The question puzzled me (to great personal delight), because it struck me as paradoxical that a person could - on one hand - be highly educated on the ways of the natural world, and yet on the other hand; believe in the existence of some God

God and real science seemed like two polar extremes, yet somehow some people apparently managed to balance the both and make it work

I later came to an understanding working to settle the dispute in a satisfactory manner

So, do you believe or disbelieve in a creator, and equally as important: what makes you certain in your respective conviction?

I don't believe in a creator, but I'm not 100% certain that there is no creator. I just don't see a reason to believe in one, seeing as there is no evidence whatsoever to support the existence of such a being.

@deeliman: what would you accept as evidence?

@BiancaDK: If he appears before all of us and shows us he exists. I don't think there is any other way to prove its existence, but I could be wrong about that. I guess anything that would leave no reasonable doubt about his existence would be good. Unfortunately, thus far I have mostly seen people use the god of the gaps argument or the "wow everything is so pretty and complex that has to have been created" argument as if that's supposed to prove anything.

God and Science don't get along well.

But on a series cases, regardless if the Creator exist or not, I alone shape my future and that is what I believe.

I am an atheist, but not the militant kind; I just don't think there is a god. Not opposed to the idea; if God comes down, does some miracles, I'd be like "OK, fine, you exist, sorry" I'm not going to stick my fingers in my ears and go "I Cant hear YOUUU NYANYANYANYA".

With that said, I imagine a good way to live with both is to A.) have faith in God, but not religion, and B.) accept that science, fact-finding, and evidence is God's way of saying "hello". Aren't the curing of diseases, acts of charity and giving, and other beneficial actions miracles in their own way, whether divine or not.

I don't know, I think calling the curing of diseases "miracles" discredits the huge amount of hard work that went into finding a cure by doctors/scientists.

yeah, i suppose it does.

Hell I get pissed when athletes thank God for their wins; first off, God wouldn't give two shits about your record, and second, don't forget about your teammates and coaches, they're the ones that helped get the win.

I thought it was fairly well-established that we reside in a simulated universe, or at least that we're very much more likely to be residing in a simulated one than in a real one.

Is the Universe a Simulation?

The only question that remains is whether we should regard the programmers who wrote the code for our simulated universe as "gods".

If there is a God, it just opens up this whole can of worms about where our God came from, then.

You just reminded me about how much I miss GabuEx. :(

I would say I believe while still maintaining deep down that everyone is fundamentally, at least to and extent, an agnostic.

And it's that exact sort of "if the world has this such and such only negligibly different, we'd all be dead" scientific discoveries that compel my belief all the more.

Trying to explain how my personal faith affects my life on an individual basis would probably just make me seem absurd and looney, so that's usually why I keep it to myself on OT or keep it brief.

:P

I believe in a Creator. But my views blow my own mind. A glimpse of it you can see in my 'The Talos principle' thread in the 18th post. There's much more detail involved but I can't be arsed thinking right now.

I believe there is a creator. There is absolutely no conflict with science as of now. None.

Saying intelligent life could only occur with the precise set of physical constant values we have discovered, so a creator must have designed it, is such a human-centric view of the universe. We're a product of the universe, so it's not surprising that we've developed in a way that relies on these universal constants. If the physical properties of the universe were to suddenly change, then of course it's highly likely that all but the most basic organisms would die out.

It's a well established theory, but I don't think it's widely believed to be true.

You can believe in a creator without believing in any particular religion. And he is right that nothing in science is in conflict with the possibility of a creator. He never once mentioned religion.

@deeliman: yup, this

True, that's why I deleted my post. I still wouldn't put my faith in there being a creator simply because we can't disprove it. While it's true we lack any evidence to disprove it, we also don't have any evidence to back it up.

didn't the Pope recently come out and say science and religion can live in peace now?

@PernicioEnigma: That's true and I agree with you that it does make it very unlikely that there is a creator.

I've always liked George Carlin's perspective.

"I believe in the sun. I can see it, feel it, and at night it goes away and lets me sleep." "What the f--- else do I need?"

i do find the notion of the religious god a bit far fetched, what interests me the most however is unity. the idea of us being the creator, projecting itself into a universe.

I worship Odin and the Aesir. I would never tell a non believer why im certain though, that's like spitting in the wind. (They wouldn't believe you anyway.)

I think that if there is a deity in existence then said deity can be understood by the mathematical sciences as with everything else in existence. Furthermore, I think that projecting the desire for what an individual would like a deity to exist as is the mind projection fallacy, first asserted by twentieth century physicist and Bayesian philosopher, Edwin Thompson Jaynes, so I make an effort to refrain from engaging in such an action.

Possible, but on the other hand, if there are an infinite number of universes, then there would be some universes capable of supporting life.

Let's say there are in infinite number of variables, but divide that by an infinite number of universes.

Lim -> inf (x/x) = 1

There fore the statistical chance of life existing is 100%

Not saying there isn't a creator of some sort.

There is only one variable in that limit equation. It does not match your comment about infinite variables.

Perhaps infinite series would apply, instead.

I cant know for certain whether or not a creator exists. And I just tend to leave it at that and focus other matters.

a non believer isn't necessarily an atheist. would you be ok with telling the reason to a neutral non-believers who's up to hear anything new?

@PernicioEnigma: I didn't say that was the reason

And Frame

But I'm Dutch, I can never feel or see the sun :(

scientists are biological entities just like everyone else and they believe in god because they get something out of it just like everyone else.

your belief is bought, ascribed to and paid for by selfishness.

Because of misinformation, history and a few bad examples, people in the religious community get alot of bad press when it comes to science.

Even as a kid, I didn't see a contradiction between God and Science! Science was my favorite subject when I was young....specifically Astrophysics.

I grew up in a religious home, but my parents where very open-minded and I'm sure I speak for alot of people in the religious community.

I do believe in a creator but I don't think that a creator necessitates the denial of the fundamental principles of science. Nor does that creator necessitate the denial of Evolution or the Big Bang. My idea of a creator is that which authored the fundamental laws of the universe and allowed those laws to be carried out in their own way through natural processes.

I totally agree, even if society doesn't believe what the religious community says about a creator, science even shows us that there was some type of intelligence or structure behind science's view of creation.

@themajormayor: What is your reason?

We are the creator and the destroyer.

They say we're the image of God. In ways some ways, yes.

No I don't. Interestingly enough I just reread The Last Answer by Asimov again last night. It has always been my favorite piece of fiction of his regarding a 'creator' of sorts.

Not with that attitude, missy !

I can't bring myself to even remotely believe in any possibility of a god.

Every possible approach I've ever taken on this train of thought always leads me to conclude god as a "mad genius" creator who haphazardly plants the seeds of life at random points throughout history and hopes for the best (therefore, even through divine intervention our existence is little more than unintended luck).

I mean, if we really were created in gods "image" (whatever that's supposed to mean) and made to be so different, then why create us to share every conceivable biological similarity with "lower" lifeforms (especially other mammals)?

And yeah, I do know that people argue that intelligent design and evolution can coexist. The difference for me though is that evolution has real evidence that can be seen in the real world.

It can never be anything more than faith and pure speculation (things I personally have no use for) when you bring god into the picture

Some find comfort in the thought of a divine hand guiding our lives. But me, I personally find a great deal of value to be found in embracing our existence as part of an endless and chaotic natural cycle (which I fully accept as the truth of our universe).

Limit x and y ->inf (x/y) =1

We don't know

So I'm agnostic.

I believe in god, yes, but far from a creationist.

I think it's good to leave your mind open to the possibilities. We can't be 100% of anything in this universe, other than human stupidity of course. That's a lifelong certainty.

Again, that is not infinite variables which is at the foundation of your assertion. Perhaps infinite series would apply, instead.

except on the internet :)

Infinity is infinity not 1 or 100%, so your equation is utter nonsense. Seriously where did you learn math?