About the Holocaust...

I've been thinking about this lately. The Holocaust killed, what,....6-8 million Jews, 12 million people in total (if I'm not mistaken). Now how the HELL is it possible to kill that amount of people by such a smaller minority unless the larger majority allowed such a thing to happen? These people were literally herded like cattle to their deaths. People ain't cows. I find it very hard to believe that every one of them were ignorant of their fate until it befell them, especially towards the end of the war. Sure there were a few resistance groups here and there, but nothing major. Why were there not massive uprisings and revolts going on everywhere? Didn't these people KNOW or at least suspect they were going to be gassed? Didn't they want to fight for their lives? I know if I were being led to my death I'd have nothing to lose. So why not fight?

Now I'm not in any way trying to lessen the atrocities the Nazis committed, but when that many people allow themselves to be massacred in such a way, it does make part of me wonder how much responsibilty for their own survival they bear? I'm probably going to get a lot of angry responses for this, but I'd be interested in hearing your guys thoughts.

If the few things I have heard to be true it was a gradual thing. The nazis didn't just come in and move them all to the death camps. First, the nazis occupied your country and then took over the government, establishing the gestapo (?) the german police. Eventually, they became much more stricter as time went on. Curfews, rations, etc. Then mis-information spread, at the time people believed they were just being moved (Someone needs to fill that in for me I can't quite remember) none believed the atrocites that they heard. Genocide like this was unheard of then. So when they were all forced to be moved in to trains they didn't think they were going to death camps, and well they did.

However this is just very basic and I could be wrong on a few points.

When one group of people has machine guns, tanks, and the luftwaffe, and the other has nothing, that can happen.

I took a Holocaust class and someone asked this same exact question. It's because no one wanted to be the first one to revolt seeing as how they were most likely going to be killed before anyone else. Even if there's a large group of prisoners against a small number of guards, no matter what it'll always end up as a kamikaze attack for the one that leads, and no one would want to take up that job.

When one group of people has machine guns, tanks, and the luftwaffe, and the other has nothing, that can happen.

sonicare

You'd be amazed at the effectiveness of several miles of barbed wire, dozens of dogs, misinformation directed at the victims, and a few manned MG-42s in towers.

If the few things I have heard to be true it was a gradual thing. The nazis didn't just come in and move them all to the death camps. First, the nazis occupied your country and then took over the government, establishing the gestapo (?) the german police. Eventually, they became much more stricter as time went on. Curfews, rations, etc. Then mis-information spread, at the time people believed they were just being moved (Someone needs to fill that in for me I can't quite remember) none believed the atrocites that they heard. Genocide like this was unheard of then. So when they were all forced to be moved in to trains they didn't think they were going to death camps, and well they did.

However this is just very basic and I could be wrong on a few points.

Bardock47

Good points, I was just talking to my dad and he said pretty much the same thing....that by the time they knew what was going on it was already almost done. Still though, you'd think after the first month rumors would spread around. I guess people just simply did not want to believe it.

When someone tells you get in the ****ing train before they put a bullet in you and your entire family you'll probably turn into a cow and get on the train.

Just saying.

You'd be amazed of the effectiveness of several miles of barbed wire, dozens of dogs, and a few manned MG-42s in towers.

Verge_6

True, but (from what I've seen in movies and documentaries anyways), these people didn't seem to be being held against their will, instead they mostly just patiently waited their turn.

[QUOTE="Bardock47"]

If the few things I have heard to be true it was a gradual thing. The nazis didn't just come in and move them all to the death camps. First, the nazis occupied your country and then took over the government, establishing the gestapo (?) the german police. Eventually, they became much more stricter as time went on. Curfews, rations, etc. Then mis-information spread, at the time people believed they were just being moved (Someone needs to fill that in for me I can't quite remember) none believed the atrocites that they heard. Genocide like this was unheard of then. So when they were all forced to be moved in to trains they didn't think they were going to death camps, and well they did.

However this is just very basic and I could be wrong on a few points.

Rekunta

Good points, I was just talking to my dad and he said pretty much the same thing....that by the time they knew what was going on it was already almost done. Still though, you'd think after the first month rumors would spread around. I guess people just simply did not want to believe it.

[QUOTE="Verge_6"]

You'd be amazed of the effectiveness of several miles of barbed wire, dozens of dogs, and a few manned MG-42s in towers.

Rekunta

True, but (from what I've seen in movies and documentaries anyways), these people didn't seem to be being held against their will, instead they mostly just patiently waited their turn.

[QUOTE="cd_rom"]Read Elie Wiesel's "Night". That explains some of it. What it comes down to is a lot of people believed they would merely work. A lot didn't believe (or didn't want to believe) that the Nazi's would actually systematically kill them.stanleycup98

If any of you people reading this thread ever find yourself in Berlin, go visit Jüdishes Musem (the jewish museum). It's amazingly haunting and frightening. They have a building that is basically one huge piece of art, which is meant to give you a sense of hopelessness and despair, and they also have a 'maze' of trees planted in memory of all the fallen.

The holocaust killed 6 million European Jews. I doubt they were ignorant of their fate, they were simply stripped of hope. I've been to one of the internment camps, Theresienstadt, and you really lose hope even though it doesn't look anything like it did during WWII. Even though the day I was there was a sunny, cloudless day, the entire area felt stripped of hope. It was horrible. And it wasn't even one of the execution camps, just a pick-up place with a railroad to Auschwitz.Deihjan

Hope's never dead until you give up. I haven't been to any camps like you have so I can't claim to know how it is, but even so. hope comes from within. I think the Nazi's propaganda machine probably had more to do with it.

[QUOTE="stanleycup98"][QUOTE="cd_rom"]Read Elie Wiesel's "Night". That explains some of it. What it comes down to is a lot of people believed they would merely work. A lot didn't believe (or didn't want to believe) that the Nazi's would actually systematically kill them.67gt500

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

[QUOTE="Verge_6"]

You'd be amazed of the effectiveness of several miles of barbed wire, dozens of dogs, and a few manned MG-42s in towers.

Verge_6

True, but (from what I've seen in movies and documentaries anyways), these people didn't seem to be being held against their will, instead they mostly just patiently waited their turn.

[QUOTE="stanleycup98"][QUOTE="cd_rom"]Read Elie Wiesel's "Night". That explains some of it. What it comes down to is a lot of people believed they would merely work. A lot didn't believe (or didn't want to believe) that the Nazi's would actually systematically kill them.67gt500

Hope's never dead until you give up. I haven't been to any camps like you have so I can't claim to know how it is, but even so. hope comes from within. I think the Nazi's propaganda machine probably had more to do with it.

Rekunta

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="stanleycup98"] I was going to suggest reading that. It really does show how they were deceived. They did not know that they were being sent to die until they were in the camps (assuming they weren't killed straight off). And by then, there was no way to spread the word.Bardock47

From what I've read the Allies had suspicions about the camps from aerial recon photos taken in the early stages of the war.

When one group of people has machine guns, tanks, and the luftwaffe, and the other has nothing, that can happen.sonicare

[QUOTE="sonicare"]When one group of people has machine guns, tanks, and the luftwaffe, and the other has nothing, that can happen.funsohng

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="stanleycup98"] I was going to suggest reading that. It really does show how they were deceived. They did not know that they were being sent to die until they were in the camps (assuming they weren't killed straight off). And by then, there was no way to spread the word.cd_rom

[QUOTE="Bardock47"]

[QUOTE="67gt500"] I've heard that theory, but I'm not sure that's entirely true -- don't forget that people in America, Canada and Western Europe knew full-well what was happening in those camps (and had no intentions of doing anything about it) long before the Allies found them and started liberating the few survivors... if people over on this side of the 'Pond' were aware of the atrocities being committed there, shortly after they started, I'd be hard-pressed to believe that people who were actually living in the regions were oblivious to it... it just doesn't make any sense...Rekunta

From what I've read the Allies had suspicions about the camps from aerial recon photos taken in the early stages of the war.

Most of them didn't until it was too late, until they were already imprisoned that is. People are cows, they follow and most of them don't think for themselves.Blaminator1221

Similarly, Americans will keep telling themselves that it could never happen in America.

But once they're inside the FEMA concentration camps, it will be too late.

:shock:

[QUOTE="cd_rom"][QUOTE="67gt500"] I've heard that theory, but I'm not sure that's entirely true -- don't forget that people in America, Canada and Western Europe knew full-well what was happening in those camps (and had no intentions of doing anything about it) long before the Allies found them and started liberating the few survivors... if people over on this side of the 'Pond' were aware of the atrocities being committed there, shortly after they started, I'd be hard-pressed to believe that people who were actually living in the regions were oblivious to it... it just doesn't make any sense...67gt500

[QUOTE="Bardock47"]

[QUOTE="67gt500"] I've heard that theory, but I'm not sure that's entirely true -- don't forget that people in America, Canada and Western Europe knew full-well what was happening in those camps (and had no intentions of doing anything about it) long before the Allies found them and started liberating the few survivors... if people over on this side of the 'Pond' were aware of the atrocities being committed there, shortly after they started, I'd be hard-pressed to believe that people who were actually living in the regions were oblivious to it... it just doesn't make any sense...Rekunta

From what I've read the Allies had suspicions about the camps from aerial recon photos taken in the early stages of the war.

Considering where the camps are, what kind of recon planes are you talking about that can make it that far and back without being shot down by the Luftwaffe or the numerous flak batteries? Norway maybe or even Denmark. But through the heart of Western Europe and past Germany itself? I can't think of any recon plane that would have that range at the time. The only way a bomber might make it through is by night. Considering the tech of the time, they wouldn't be able to see anything at night.

1. Start with a population that is poor, underemployed, and still recovering from a devastating loss in WWI

2. Sprinkle generously with propoganda

3. Add a dash of charismatic leader with excellent public speaking skills

4. Add a twist of propoganda and whisk vigorously

5. Ladle on top of a war meant to unite your people and divert their attention from your nation's horrendous crimes

6. Finally, season with a dose of paranoia and fear

voila, instant genocide

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

[QUOTE="Bardock47"] Pretty sure thats not true. the first the allies found out about the camps were as troops were marchin into them. At least thats what I have heard from, i have never heard about people knowing.

jun_aka_pekto

From what I've read the Allies had suspicions about the camps from aerial recon photos taken in the early stages of the war.

Considering where the camps are, what kind of recon planes are you talking about that can make it that far and back without being shot down by the Luftwaffe or the numerous flak batteries? Norway maybe or even Denmark. But through the heart of Western Europe and past Germany itself? I can't think of any recon plane that would have that range at the time. The only way a bomber might make it through is by night. Considering the tech of the time, they wouldn't be able to see anything at night.

I'm not familiar with the tech of the time nor of what planes they had, but I do know they did have recon flights. Maybe I'm mistaken about it being early in the war, but I'm pretty sure they did know at some point before the troops entered the camps.

1. Start with a population that is poor, underemployed, and still recovering from a devastating loss in WWI

2. Sprinkle generously with propoganda

3. Add a dash of charismatic leader with excellent public speaking skills

4. Add a twist of propoganda and whisk vigorously

5. Ladle on top of a war meant to unite your people and divert their attention from your nation's horrendous crimes

6. Finally, season with a dose of paranoia and fear

voila, instant genocide

mrbojangles25

Gotta admit, this made me laugh pretty hard.

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

[QUOTE="Bardock47"] Pretty sure thats not true. the first the allies found out about the camps were as troops were marchin into them. At least thats what I have heard from, i have never heard about people knowing.

jun_aka_pekto

From what I've read the Allies had suspicions about the camps from aerial recon photos taken in the early stages of the war.

Considering where the camps are, what kind of recon planes are you talking about that can make it that far and back without being shot down by the Luftwaffe or the numerous flak batteries? Norway maybe or even Denmark. But through the heart of Western Europe and past Germany itself? I can't think of any recon plane that would have that range at the time. The only way a bomber might make it through is by night. Considering the tech of the time, they wouldn't be able to see anything at night.

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

[QUOTE="Bardock47"] Pretty sure thats not true. the first the allies found out about the camps were as troops were marchin into them. At least thats what I have heard from, i have never heard about people knowing.

Bardock47

From what I've read the Allies had suspicions about the camps from aerial recon photos taken in the early stages of the war.

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

1. Start with a population that is poor, underemployed, and still recovering from a devastating loss in WWI

2. Sprinkle generously with propoganda

3. Add a dash of charismatic leader with excellent public speaking skills

4. Add a twist of propoganda and whisk vigorously

5. Ladle on top of a war meant to unite your people and divert their attention from your nation's horrendous crimes

6. Finally, season with a dose of paranoia and fear

voila, instant genocide

Rekunta

Gotta admit, this made me laugh pretty hard.

because its true? :P

it was not my intent, though lol. I love a good holocaust joke as much as the next corrupt soul, but I know this aint the place for them.

[QUOTE="Bardock47"]

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

From what I've read the Allies had suspicions about the camps from aerial recon photos taken in the early stages of the war.

67gt500

It was said that the ratio of prisoners to guards was such that at almost any time, the prisoners could have easily over-run their captors if they have banded together -- sure, many of them would have died in the attempt, but it was not outside the realm of possibility that they could have done it... for whatever their reasons, they just didn't...

67gt500

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="cd_rom"] Allies knew people were being hearded into camps. Americans did the same thing to Japanese. The Allies did not know how bad it really was. The Jews knew they were being rounded up into camps. They did now know how bad it really was. There you go.cd_rom

[QUOTE="cd_rom"][QUOTE="67gt500"] They knew... the world can try to say they had no idea if it helps them sleep nights, but they knew... 67gt500

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="cd_rom"] Alright then. I had no idea you were psychic and could read the thoughts of dead people.cd_rom

I feel like you keep trying to make a point.

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

1. Start with a population that is poor, underemployed, and still recovering from a devastating loss in WWI

2. Sprinkle generously with propoganda

3. Add a dash of charismatic leader with excellent public speaking skills

4. Add a twist of propoganda and whisk vigorously

5. Ladle on top of a war meant to unite your people and divert their attention from your nation's horrendous crimes

6. Finally, season with a dose of paranoia and fear

voila, instant genocide

mrbojangles25

Gotta admit, this made me laugh pretty hard.

because its true? :P

it was not my intent, though lol. I love a good holocaust joke as much as the next corrupt soul, but I know this aint the place for them.

Well, I can't much dispute it, as all of those had some bearing on what happened. Good joke though, ah....it's all in good spirits.

[QUOTE="67gt500"][QUOTE="cd_rom"] Alright then. I had no idea you were psychic and could read the thoughts of dead people.cd_rom

Alright, alright-- like I said -- whatever helps you sleep nights... I'm just going on the testimony of people who I actually know/knew, who were actually alive at the time, some of whom enlisted and were actually in Europe at the time, who said that there absolutely was knowledge stateside -- fairly common knowledge no less -- of Hitler's genocidal plans / racially-motivated mass killings call it whatever you want as early as the late '30's, that many reasonable people knew the jews weren't being rounded up 'for their own safety' or 'deportation/repatriation'... and that people over here were largely indifferent toward it for whatever their reasons... but whatever right?

They Nazi's used their military might to force them into "labor camps", which was better than bullets.

Once their they were malnourished and worked to death.

Others were put into showers to be "cleaned", then poison gas capsules was dropped in.

Once malnourished and worked, your only fight left is to stand to work some more instead of getting "permanent retirement".

They Nazi's used their military might to force them into "labor camps", which was better than bullets.

Once their they were malnourished and worked to death.

Others were put into showers to be "cleaned", then poison gas capsules was dropped in.

dercoo

[QUOTE="dercoo"]

They Nazi's used their military might to force them into "labor camps", which was better than bullets.

Once their they were malnourished and worked to death.

Others were put into showers to be "cleaned", then poison gas capsules was dropped in.

Deihjan

There were many kinds of poison used. Some from pumped in gas, some that had capsules that dissolved in water, others simply pumped in exhaust.

Correction, "pellet" I believe is the proper term.

[QUOTE="stanleycup98"][QUOTE="cd_rom"]Read Elie Wiesel's "Night". That explains some of it. What it comes down to is a lot of people believed they would merely work. A lot didn't believe (or didn't want to believe) that the Nazi's would actually systematically kill them.67gt500

The holocaust killed 6 million European Jews. I doubt they were ignorant of their fate, they were simply stripped of hope. I've been to one of the internment camps, Theresienstadt, and you really lose hope even though it doesn't look anything like it did during WWII. Even though the day I was there was a sunny, cloudless day, the entire area felt stripped of hope. It was horrible. And it wasn't even one of the execution camps, just a pick-up place with a railroad to Auschwitz.Deihjan

I hear that.
I've been to a camp myself (there is one only a few minutes from where I live).
Absolutely horrible place, the tour guide was a guy who actually was held prisoner there....very brave man. He even took us to the room where he was tortured and explained what they did to him in every detail. He told us the day he saw American/British Tanks drive by was the happiest day in his life, I can't even imaginewhat that would have been like.