America's new reality: China questions costs of U.S. healthcare reform

It's interesting how much of the world is concerned about the rapidly growing US debt, except for Americans. I recall during the g20 summit this year, only the UK stood strongly with the US in it's desire to inflate their way out of the recession with deficit spending. Now the Chinese, rightfully nervous, are asking questions about the staggering cost of US healthcare reform.

Reuters

Guess what? It turns out the Chinese are kind of curious about how President Barack Obama's healthcare reform plans would impact America's huge fiscal deficit. Government officials are using his Asian trip as an opportunity to ask the White House questions. Detailed questions.

Boilerplate assurances that America won't default on its debt or inflate the shortfall away are apparently not cutting it. Nor should they, when one owns nearly $2 trillion in assets denominated in the currency of a country about to double its national debt over the next decade.

Nothing happening in Washington today should give Beijing any comfort or confidence about what may happen tomorrow. Healthcare reform was originally promoted as a way to "bend the curve" on escalating entitlement costs, the major part of which is financing Medicare and Medicaid. That is looking more and more like an overpromised deliverable.

For instance, a new study from the U.S. government's Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services finds that the healthcare reform bill recently passed in the House of Representatives would increase healthcare spending to 21.3 percent of GDP by 2019 compared with 20.8 percent under current law. That's bending the curve the wrong way. The study also questions the "long-term viability" of the $500 billion in Medicare cuts meant to help pay for expanded insurance coverage.

In addition, the CMS study gives a clearer cost estimate than the one provided by the Congressional Budget Office. According to the CBO, the 10-year cost of PelosiCare is $894 billion. But that analysis includes early years with little government spending, According to the CMS, the House approach would cost $1 trillion from 2013-2019, or some $140 billion a year when fully put into effect.

Few realists in Washington think any of the current reform plans make a significant dent in the long-term healthcare cost to government. Indeed, the Senate Budget Committee recently held hearing about creating a bipartisan commission to find solutions to America's entitlements problems.

If healthcare reform really bent the curve, there would be a no need for such a commission to do Healthcare Reform 2.0.

The Chinese might want to keep up the questioning.

The desire of the American people to spread democracy and "freedom" around the world has put your country in such a bind that your future is now in question. The irony of fighting to "free" others have put your freedom and sovereignty as stake. I hope it was worth it....

Very interesting. Considering that I'm not adept at explaining or comprehending the severe problems that a deficit provides, I'm excited to see what people are going to say about this.

I really don't think people care what the deficit is going to be, to be honest with you. The bottom line is they don't know how fix the current system so the way to fix it is to just get rid of it and have the government take care of it for you. When the bottom line is people forget that the government is us, we fund it. Money doesn't grow out of trees. The fact is we are the supplier of funds to the government and as of right nowas a country we are in debt to high heaven. We don't have a toilet to crap in or a window to throw it out of, but lets just keep getting farther and farther in debt because you know free healthcare for everyone!

The desire of the American people to spread democracy and "freedom" around the world has put your country in such a bind that your future is now in question. The irony of fighting to "free" others have put your freedom and sovereignty as stake. I hope it was worth it....

majwill24

We haven't had a choice.

If Obama had really cared about America, his first act would have been to re-enact the 4th admendment. The very thing that allows our government to look into our souls and judge us without reprimand. When he failed to do that, I knew this country was doomed.

I wasn't 18 when Bush was first elected, so sadly my voice is lost in the wave of people who actually drank the goverment kool-aid.

If I could leave the country I would, but nobody in their right mind wants to hire a lowly American anymore.

Like anyone should believe that it will only cost 900 billion over 10 years. :lol:

the problem is that no bills are addressing costs. and that's because no politician wants to force doctors and hospitals with cost control. thus we get insurance reform but not comprehensive healthcare reform as promised. we need a nonpartisan alliance to get through cost control passed what would undoubtedly be scare and smear campaigns but our system is so partisan that we can't do that. thus we're screwed no matter what we do. Ontain

I mean I understand what you are saying, but do you have any idea how much it cost for these doctors to go to school? Do you know how long it takes them to even be considered a doctor? I mean I think people aren't understanding that science in general is very very expensive. Not only that in my opinion it is one of the most riskiest career in the world, not just for your own health as a doctor, but do you realize if you screw up your career is over? I mean I wish people would just have a better understanding of what it takes to be a doctor and the costs of it.xscrapzx

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]I mean I understand what you are saying, but do you have any idea how much it cost for these doctors to go to school? Do you know how long it takes them to even be considered a doctor? I mean I think people aren't understanding that science in general is very very expensive. Not only that in my opinion it is one of the most riskiest career in the world, not just for your own health as a doctor, but do you realize if you screw up your career is over? I mean I wish people would just have a better understanding of what it takes to be a doctor and the costs of it.Engrish_Major

Are you sure about that? If that is the case why do you have people all of the world that go to our hospitals? For a vacation? I mean anytime that I have gone to doctors I have gotten everything that I have expected. Why can't people also understand that doctors and hostipals are all human beings? Nothing is going to be perfect even if you pay top dollar for it. There are no such things at gaurantees in life, I just don't understand how you can sit here and say the government is going to make it easier, when they are going to use the same decision process when deciding how people should be treated or if they should even be treated.xscrapzx

I was expecting an article and got a blog. I was very curious about China questioning the US, not some bloggers opinion on UHC. Misleading topic title.

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"] Are you sure about that? If that is the case why do you have people all of the world that go to our hospitals? For a vacation? I mean anytime that I have gone to doctors I have gotten everything that I have expected. Why can't people also understand that doctors and hostipals are all human beings? Nothing is going to be perfect even if you pay top dollar for it. There are no such things at gaurantees in life, I just don't understand how you can sit here and say the government is going to make it easier, when they are going to use the same decision process when deciding how people should be treated or if they should even be treated.Engrish_Major

I was expecting an article and got a blog. I was very curious about China questioning the US, not some bloggers opinion on UHC. Misleading topic title.

wstfld

I assure you, its not just a bloggers opinion. Sentiments about the deficit and the dollars value was once again brought to the forefront againIt's doesnt take a rocket science degree to understand why the Chinese would start asking questions about the US expenditures, considering they have so much invested in the dollar. Once you realize how economically minded the chinese are, such curiosity from them wont seem all that unusual

China needs to mind their damn business. If China really cared about our debt, they would re-evaluate their currency to reflect their current economic growth. As it stands the Chinese government under values the Yuan compared to other currencies.The US wouldn't import as much from them because imports would be more expensive. It would raise the cost of manufacturing in China and the benefit would be fewer jobs would have to be shipped over there, thus potentially creating more Jobs in the US. That would mean more tax payers, more consumers who could put money back into the system. You can see why China likes to keep the status quo. However, such a move would increase wages in China, and help develop their middle class as the main stream of the population. A strong Middle class consumes a lot of goods. And if those goods were produced in China for a Chineses middle class, that would offset the drop in exports. kind of like the US in the 1950s.

Well people, ROAD WARRIOR SEQUEL WITH EXTRA REAL EFFECTS! WHO'S WITH ME!

Yes, I'm sure. Even some of the very same drugs that you buy here are available for much cheaper in other countries. Per capita, for care, people in the United States pay more than people in countries with socialized care. In addition, people always talk about the people that come to the US for care, but they never talk about the many Americans that go to Canada or Mexico for care because they cannot afford it here.Engrish_Major

If people would pay for what they take, the costs could be kept under control. No scheme or control can shield health care from the forces of the free market. Poor policy, fraud, and excessive torts have inflated health care costs. Government control is only going to make things worse.

the problem is that no bills are addressing costs. and that's because no politician wants to force doctors and hospitals with cost control. thus we get insurance reform but not comprehensive healthcare reform as promised. we need a nonpartisan alliance to get through cost control passed what would undoubtedly be scare and smear campaigns but our system is so partisan that we can't do that. thus we're screwed no matter what we do. Ontain

Well, partisanship, for better or worse is exactly what happens in a two party system. It doesn't look like it's going away any time soon.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"] Are you sure about that? If that is the case why do you have people all of the world that go to our hospitals? For a vacation? I mean anytime that I have gone to doctors I have gotten everything that I have expected. Why can't people also understand that doctors and hostipals are all human beings? Nothing is going to be perfect even if you pay top dollar for it. There are no such things at gaurantees in life, I just don't understand how you can sit here and say the government is going to make it easier, when they are going to use the same decision process when deciding how people should be treated or if they should even be treated.xscrapzx

You are right to be afraid. I wont go into the morality of healthcare, because it just doesnt concern me. However, the push for current healthcare reform is based on the knowledge that it wont cut cost and that it will have to be reformed again in the future. The idea is that when that day comes, national healthcare will be part of the American psyche, like social security and so it will be matter of reorganizing resources, not about termination.

The problem with this is that its based off the assumption that the US economy has a long prosperous future even with possible trillion dollar a year deficits. The chinese arent going to be quiet and risk their assets being destroyed by what is seen as an ideological bill

China needs to mind their damn business. If China really cared about our debt, they would re-evaluate their currency to reflect their current economic growth. As it stands the Chinese government under values the Yuan compared to other currencies.The US wouldn't import as much from them because imports would be more expensive. It would raise the cost of manufacturing in China and the benefit would be fewer jobs would have to be shipped over there, thus potentially creating more Jobs in the US. That would mean more tax payers, more consumers who could put money back into the system. You can see why China likes to keep the status quo. However, such a move would increase wages in China, and help develop their middle class as the main stream of the population. A strong Middle class consumes a lot of goods. And if those goods were produced in China for a Chineses middle class, that would offset the drop in exports. kind of like the US in the 1950s.

Darthmatt

I really don't think people care what the deficit is going to be, to be honest with you. The bottom line is they don't know how fix the current system so the way to fix it is to just get rid of it and have the government take care of it for you.

xscrapzx

The health care reform bill doesn't do away with the current health care system - all it does is expand coverage while maintaining the system already in place, with a few reforms here and there. Moreover, the health care legislation that passed the house reduces the deficit by about $100 billion over ten years.

China needs to mind their damn business. If China really cared about our debt, they would re-evaluate their currency to reflect their current economic growth. As it stands the Chinese government under values the Yuan compared to other currencies.The US wouldn't import as much from them because imports would be more expensive. It would raise the cost of manufacturing in China and the benefit would be fewer jobs would have to be shipped over there, thus potentially creating more Jobs in the US. That would mean more tax payers, more consumers who could put money back into the system. You can see why China likes to keep the status quo. However, such a move would increase wages in China, and help develop their middle class as the main stream of the population. A strong Middle class consumes a lot of goods. And if those goods were produced in China for a Chineses middle class, that would offset the drop in exports. kind of like the US in the 1950s.

Darthmatt

The part about the Chinese middle class is partially wrong. The chinese middle class have all the money they need to buy everything Americans can, but its an issue of culture. The US is seen as the consumers of the world because of your 0 savings rate and rampant spending of goods with credit. In contrast, the typical chinese middle class family is extremely frugal. Chinese women are very conservative about spending and since something like 80% of household financing is controlled by women, you can see why its not an simple issue. Raising purchasing power of the RMB wont matter because it will be countered by rising costs of good. Such an appreciation would only hurt the job market in China.

IT wont be easy to change the behavior of the average chinese person anytime soon, but I;m not sure if thats a good idea anyway. Do you really want the Chinese to behave like Americans with money?

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]

I really don't think people care what the deficit is going to be, to be honest with you. The bottom line is they don't know how fix the current system so the way to fix it is to just get rid of it and have the government take care of it for you.

-Sun_Tzu-

The health care reform bill doesn't do away with the current health care system - all it does is expand coverage while maintaining the system already in place, with a few reforms here and there. Moreover, the health care legislation that passed the house reduces the deficit by about $100 billion over ten years.

I can say that the deficit will be reduced by $100 billion over time too!!! Pigs can also now fly.

[QUOTE="wstfld"]

I was expecting an article and got a blog. I was very curious about China questioning the US, not some bloggers opinion on UHC. Misleading topic title.

majwill24

I assure you, its not just a bloggers opinion. Sentiments about the deficit and the dollars value was once again brought to the forefront againIt's doesnt take a rocket science degree to understand why the Chinese would start asking questions about the US expenditures, considering they have so much invested in the dollar. Once you realize how economically minded the chinese are, such curiosity from them wont seem all that unusual

[QUOTE="Darthmatt"]

China needs to mind their damn business. If China really cared about our debt, they would re-evaluate their currency to reflect their current economic growth. As it stands the Chinese government under values the Yuan compared to other currencies.The US wouldn't import as much from them because imports would be more expensive. It would raise the cost of manufacturing in China and the benefit would be fewer jobs would have to be shipped over there, thus potentially creating more Jobs in the US. That would mean more tax payers, more consumers who could put money back into the system. You can see why China likes to keep the status quo. However, such a move would increase wages in China, and help develop their middle class as the main stream of the population. A strong Middle class consumes a lot of goods. And if those goods were produced in China for a Chineses middle class, that would offset the drop in exports. kind of like the US in the 1950s.

majwill24

The part about the Chinese middle class is partially wrong. The chinese middle class have all the money they need to buy everything Americans can, but its an issue of culture. The US is seen as the consumers of the world because of your 0 savings rate and rampant spending of goods with credit. In contrast, the typical chinese middle class family is extremely frugal. Chinese women are very conservative about spending and since something like 80% of household financing is controlled by women, you can see why its not an simple issue. Raising purchasing power of the RMB wont matter because it will be countered by rising costs of good. Such an appreciation would only hurt the job market in China.

IT wont be easy to change the behavior of the average chinese person anytime soon, but I;m not sure if thats a good idea anyway. Do you really want the Chinese to behave like Americans with money?

[QUOTE="Ontain"]the problem is that no bills are addressing costs. and that's because no politician wants to force doctors and hospitals with cost control. thus we get insurance reform but not comprehensive healthcare reform as promised. we need a nonpartisan alliance to get through cost control passed what would undoubtedly be scare and smear campaigns but our system is so partisan that we can't do that. thus we're screwed no matter what we do. xscrapzx

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]Yes, I'm sure. Even some of the very same drugs that you buy here are available for much cheaper in other countries. Per capita, for care, people in the United States pay more than people in countries with socialized care. In addition, people always talk about the people that come to the US for care, but they never talk about the many Americans that go to Canada or Mexico for care because they cannot afford it here.MarcusAntonius

If people would pay for what they take, the costs could be kept under control. No scheme or control can shield health care from the forces of the free market. Poor policy, fraud, and excessive torts have inflated health care costs. Government control is only going to make things worse.

[QUOTE="MarcusAntonius"]

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]Yes, I'm sure. Even some of the very same drugs that you buy here are available for much cheaper in other countries. Per capita, for care, people in the United States pay more than people in countries with socialized care. In addition, people always talk about the people that come to the US for care, but they never talk about the many Americans that go to Canada or Mexico for care because they cannot afford it here.Ontain

If people would pay for what they take, the costs could be kept under control. No scheme or control can shield health care from the forces of the free market. Poor policy, fraud, and excessive torts have inflated health care costs. Government control is only going to make things worse.

ER runs don't figure into the discussion and I'm not going to split hairs just to create more discussion.

Every heard of generic variations of medicines? Then you do have choices, don't you? The free market is stifiled in its current form due to monoplies propped up by terrible legislation as far as insurance goes. When you're paying an inflated price tag for your care, you're also paying for everyone else who didn't pay. Greedy insurance companies aren't nearly as significant of a cause as we're all being led to believe.

Again, healthcare in its current form is ****** up and it needs to be reformed. ObamaCare isn't the way to go. Tort reform and insurance reform will go a long way towards reducing costs.

Health care reform is such an atrocious idea. The country needs to get out of debt BEFORE anymore spending happens. The current $12 trillion in debt right now won't even be paid off by the next generation of people.

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]I mean I understand what you are saying, but do you have any idea how much it cost for these doctors to go to school? Do you know how long it takes them to even be considered a doctor? I mean I think people aren't understanding that science in general is very very expensive. Not only that in my opinion it is one of the most riskiest career in the world, not just for your own health as a doctor, but do you realize if you screw up your career is over? I mean I wish people would just have a better understanding of what it takes to be a doctor and the costs of it.Engrish_Major

You are kidding, right? Have you ever been in EU or Japan? Just look at gaming business - in US you pay 59,99$ for a game while in EU you have to take out 60 Euro for one. Why do you think US exports cars to the EU? Because they are cheaper.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]

I really don't think people care what the deficit is going to be, to be honest with you. The bottom line is they don't know how fix the current system so the way to fix it is to just get rid of it and have the government take care of it for you.

dmc333

The health care reform bill doesn't do away with the current health care system - all it does is expand coverage while maintaining the system already in place, with a few reforms here and there. Moreover, the health care legislation that passed the house reduces the deficit by about $100 billion over ten years.

I can say that the deficit will be reduced by $100 billion over time too!!! Pigs can also now fly.

[QUOTE="dmc333"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

The health care reform bill doesn't do away with the current health care system - all it does is expand coverage while maintaining the system already in place, with a few reforms here and there. Moreover, the health care legislation that passed the house reduces the deficit by about $100 billion over ten years.

-Sun_Tzu-

I can say that the deficit will be reduced by $100 billion over time too!!! Pigs can also now fly.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="dmc333"]

I can say that the deficit will be reduced by $100 billion over time too!!! Pigs can also now fly.

aransom

Also, the CBO is pretty well regarded by both the left and the right. And China isn't exactly the greatest country to get economic lessons from - their currency policy is really boneheaded and they don't seem to realize and understand the implications of the economic policies they have in place.

a completely government run health care system like the NHS in the UK is actually very cheap and cost efficient.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]a completely government run health care system like the NHS in the UK is actually very cheap and cost efficient.

aransom

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="Ontain"]the problem is that no bills are addressing costs. and that's because no politician wants to force doctors and hospitals with cost control. thus we get insurance reform but not comprehensive healthcare reform as promised. we need a nonpartisan alliance to get through cost control passed what would undoubtedly be scare and smear campaigns but our system is so partisan that we can't do that. thus we're screwed no matter what we do. Ontain

[QUOTE="aransom"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]a completely government run health care system like the NHS in the UK is actually very cheap and cost efficient.

The desire of the American people to spread democracy and "freedom" around the world has put your country in such a bind that your future is now in question. The irony of fighting to "free" others have put your freedom and sovereignty as stake. I hope it was worth it....

majwill24

[QUOTE="aransom"]It's always cheaper to give someone an aspirin instead of a surgery.

[QUOTE="majwill24"]

The desire of the American people to spread democracy and "freedom" around the world has put your country in such a bind that your future is now in question. The irony of fighting to "free" others have put your freedom and sovereignty as stake. I hope it was worth it....

aransom

The desire of the American people to spread democracy and "freedom" around the world has put your country in such a bind that your future is now in question. The irony of fighting to "free" others have put your freedom and sovereignty as stake. I hope it was worth it....

majwill24

[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Yes, that is the caricature that is often presented when discussing "socialized medicine", but in reality the health care that those in the UK receive is just fine, and that shows when you look at the health statistics, which are just as good and many times better than said statistics in the U.S.

-Sun_Tzu-

The desire of the American people to spread democracy and "freedom" around the world has put your country in such a bind that your future is now in question. The irony of fighting to "free" others have put your freedom and sovereignty as stake. I hope it was worth it....

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="sonicare"] Unless you are talking about cancer.sonicare

Now beyond that, yes, you are correct that infant mortality rates and life expectincy rates are, by themselves, pretty useless statistics when gauging the quality of a countries health care system. You have things like unhealthy lifestyles and poverty that increase the disease burden in the U.S. and skew those statistics negatively. But despite the fact that we Americans enjoy our cheeseburgers, there is still a higher disease burden in Europe due to the fact that smoking is a lot more prevelent in Europe and also the European population is older, and despite all of this they still have a higher life expectancy. You also have statistics like mortality amendable to health care which allow for much more direct comparisons between health care systems.

[QUOTE="sonicare"]

Yes you are right, the UK is pretty bad when it comes to cancer mortality rates, but I'm not claiming the contrary. All I'm saying is that for the most part, the NHS offers quality health care - it's not some backwards system that represents the evils of socialized medicine. -Sun_Tzu-

Now beyond that, yes, you are correct that infant mortality rates and life expectincy rates are, by themselves, pretty useless statistics when gauging the quality of a countries health care system. You have things like unhealthy lifestyles and poverty that increase the disease burden in the U.S. and skew those statistics negatively. But despite the fact that we Americans enjoy our cheeseburgers, there is still a higher disease burden in Europe due to the fact that smoking is a lot more prevelent in Europe and also the European population is older, and despite all of this they still have a higher life expectancy. You also have statistics like mortality amendable to health care which allow for much more direct comparisons between health care systems.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"] The trouble is that it's hard to define what quality medicine is. The indices that many people tout are not as clean cut as they would have you believe. Infant mortality rates and life span are significantly affected by other factors besides simply the "quality" of a healthcare system. Social factors have an enormous impact on those figures. And many nations have different criteria for reporting those factors. The US system is not nearly as bad as people make it out as well. 50% of new healthcare technology and advances in the world come from the US. But we do pay a large premium for that. Some people may advocate less innovation, less intervention and more focus on primary and preventive care. That may lower the quality of care for the individual but largely benefit the group. It's a trade off. It's not bad or good, it's just a decision for people to make. What do they want more?

sonicare

Now beyond that, yes, you are correct that infant mortality rates and life expectincy rates are, by themselves, pretty useless statistics when gauging the quality of a countries health care system. You have things like unhealthy lifestyles and poverty that increase the disease burden in the U.S. and skew those statistics negatively. But despite the fact that we Americans enjoy our cheeseburgers, there is still a higher disease burden in Europe due to the fact that smoking is a lot more prevelent in Europe and also the European population is older, and despite all of this they still have a higher life expectancy. You also have statistics like mortality amendable to health care which allow for much more direct comparisons between health care systems.

Here's the data that supports the claim that Europe has a higher disease burden. If you want to see the entire report, you'd have to register for the website - it's free so if you are curious go right ahead, although it is a rather long report.

Also, yeah an older population doesn't effect life expectancy, but it does effect a lot of other health statistics that are often used and often dismissed by defenders of the U.S. health care system because of things like unhealthy life****and poverty.

And on statistics like amendable mortality - they are not perfect statistics - there is really no such thing as a perfect statistic that measures things in the real world - there are always going to be co-founding variables. Just like any other mortality rate, it is effected by the prevalence of a specific condition and could make the statistic inaccurate. But just because a statistic is prone to being inaccurate, that does not mean it is necessarily inaccurate. You'd have to show that that which createsinaccuracies is present.

The desire of the American people to spread democracy and "freedom" around the world has put your country in such a bind that your future is now in question. The irony of fighting to "free" others have put your freedom and sovereignty as stake. I hope it was worth it....

majwill24

[QUOTE="thunderf00t"][QUOTE="majwill24"]

The desire of the American people to spread democracy and "freedom" around the world has put your country in such a bind that your future is now in question. The irony of fighting to "free" others have put your freedom and sovereignty as stake. I hope it was worth it....

sonicare

You are a democracy and the government represents the people. It's not as if there is deep struggle between 2 factions that want to stop the warmongering? Any voice calling for a dramatic change of US foreign policy like closing of overseas bases and a general more passive approach like the Europeans is quickly dismissed as naive and charges of wanting WW3 to happen are made.

So of course I going to generalize because those who want to break the status quo are the minority that no one takes seriously.