Anime is dying.

Fansubs, bootlegging & scanlations.

I hope anime/manga fans read this because it's a serious issue that effects us. I know it's long but I hope you read through it if you really care about this industry. If you don't read it all, I hope you read atleast a little bit of it or check out the individual paragraphs to see what topic I am talking about.

I've been wanting to talk about this for a long time. This is something very dear to me as a fan of anime & manga. For those of you that don't know, there is a cancer in the anime & manga industry. It isn't simply effecting anime/manga here in the west but also in Japan. Fansubs, bootlegging & scanlations are killing this industry. Anime/manga is one of the few, if not the only industry that is dying because of their "fans". These so called fans are helping to speed up the death of anime & manga by stealing anime/manga by way of downloading or streaming anime of fansubs & English dubs that have been ripped from the licensors and reading scanlations. These people may not realize how this is effecting the industry. That's one of the reasons why I would like to talk about it here. Before I begin I would like to direct you to Greg Ayre's fansub panel on youtube for more information on this from someone that works in the industry. I will talk alot about what he talks about in that panel here. There are also other people in that panel like Chris Ayres, Kyle Hebert, Taliesin Jaffe & Crispin Freeman that chim in on this problem there. I would link it here, but for some reason I can't. Mostly what I'm going to talk about is anime because it's what I am most familiar with.

For those that don't know what fansubs, bootlegging & scanlations are, I will explain it here. Fansubs are when fans of foreign films, shows, ect, that are subtitled by fans. They are usually uploaded to the internet where people either stream or download said media. Bootlegging is when people that are in no way connected to the original creators, authors, artists of video & audio media release said media without the consent or legal authority of the creators of those products. Scanlations are when people scan, translate & edit, mostly anime, from Japanese(or other languages depending on the product) into a different language. Now that I got that cleared up for the few that don't know what those terms mean, I will begin.

If you're a fan of anime you may or may not be aware of how now is the worst time in anime/manga history. Just in anime alone here in the west companies like ADV Films, Central Park Media, Geneon USA, all died here in the west in the last five years. Other companies like Bandai Entertainment have laid off a substanial amount of employees since then. Gonzo is 30 million in the red. Bang! Zoom Entertainment's CEO, Eric Sherman said last April that the company will likely stop producting English dubs in 2011 if the industry doesn't start showing signs of improvement. He also made a direct correlation to the deaths of ADV Films, Central Park Media & Geneon USA to the "fans" not buying licensed anime from them here in the west. He also said that "anime is going to die" if fans don't start buying anime from studios that license anime. This is a real threat & not just a scare tactic to get people to buy stuff. You may also have noticed that on television many channels are starting to shed anime from their programming. Cartoon Network ended Toonami, their anime block in 2008 because not enough people were watching it. Now what replaced it? CNReal, shows like Destroy Build Destroy & Dude what would happen? replaced it. So anime fans, what would you rather watch? G4 completely got rid of Anime Unleashed, their anime block back in 2006. What replaced it are reruns of shows like Cops, Cheaters, ect. So anime fans what would you rather watch? IFC & Starz Edge no longer air full anime series on their networks anymore. Every now & then they will show a movie, but that's it. IFC recently brought back Hell Girl & Speed Grapher, testing the waters to see if they wanted to get back into showing anime, but now it's no longer there. Adult Swim used to show anime every night, now it's only on once a week. These are all examples of how anime is dying.

One thing I've read is that people who watch fansubs say that they watch them, but when they are released here they will buy them. This is simply not true. Shows like Naruto & One Piece are good examples of how this isn't true. One Piece is the most illegally streamed & downloaded show in the world. The fact that One Piece & Naruto didn't sell well is because of fansubs & bootlegging. People simply aren't buying this stuff when they can get it for free via fansubs or dubbed anime that is illegally ripped from licensors. Alot of fans think that they are true fans because they watch fansubs that for some reason they think is how the Japanese intended for people to see them. If you are a true fan you don't simply watch, you support the industry by watching it legally. If you like to watch anime subbed, that's completely fine. You are entitled to enjoy them either subbed or dubbed. However watching it illegally is still stealing & is a cancer on this industry. If you want to watch it subbed there are many ways to do it legally. Nearly all anime dvds, bluray discs, digitally distrubuted releases ect, released in America have the option to watch it subtitled. So saying that you can't watch them legally subbed is completely false. If you want to import the Japanese dvds & bluray discs of anime that haven't been licensed elsewhere, you can get many of them imported that are actually subtitled by the Japanese companies themselves.

I've also read that people think by watching fansubs they are watching what the Japanese intended & how they wanted people to see their work. This is simply not true. Ask yourself, do you really think they want you to steal what they worked so hard to make by watching fansubs & bootlegs? Of course they don't. The Japanese are doing everything they can to stop this because they know how bad it is effecting the industry. Shinichrio Wantanbe, the director behind anime like Cowboy Bebop & Samurai Champloo said at a convention in Houston that he didn't intend for people to have to read subtitles to see his work. He also asked the audience not to steal what he worked so hard to make by buying bootlegs & watching fansubs. Right there is one example of an anime creator how he intended or didn't intend for his work to be viewed. So if you say you watch fansubs because you think that you are watching what the Japanese creators intended, you couldn't be further from the truth. Fansubs themselves are nearly always not as accurate as what the official commercialized version. Companies like Funimation, Viz Media, Ocean Studios, Studiopolis, Bang Zoom Entertainment, ect, have many people working for them that have to go through a strict translation process, guidelines & fact checking for the subtitles & dubbed anime. The fansubs are nearly always done by college students that aren't professional in anyway, aren't script writers & have no guidelines to accuracy that compaines like those I just mentioned do. The licensors also have direct access to the Japanese creators on everything & can ask them directly what they meant. Those that think the Japanese creators don't watch the English version of their shows don't realize how involved they are in the English version that are licesned in America & around the world.

Another thing that is often said is that here in the west, companies like Funimation edit way too much of their licensed properties & change things from the original Japanese product. Well do you know who has the final say on those decisions? The Japanese companies that license those properties to American & other countries' companies. Often if not for the most part, the Japanese want these changes & request it. Why? Because they want the product to sell. They change certain things toappeal to a western audience. It's that simple. Sometimes things are edited networks & not the actual licensor. Things like Mr. Popo from Dragonball Z/Kai being blue instead of black on The CW, the word "destroy" in place of the word "kill" or in Yugioh how people are sent to the shadow realm instead of how they are killed in the Japanese, who voices these characters, the name changes, the smoking, ect, things like this are usually done or requested by the networks to have an alternate dub or change for the network television release, not the liceansor themselves.

There is also the argument by people that watch fansubs is that licesned anime is too expensive for them to buy. If you are a fan of something, you will find a way to buy it. This may be a sign that you need to find a new job if price is such an issue for you. A big reason why anime is "expensive" is because people are watching fansubs & bootlegs. The way that directly effects how much the legally licensed product is the fact that the licensor has to raise the price so they can get the money that they spent on licensing it back. That money doesn't make these people in the industry rich. That money nearly always goes back into them buying more anime to license. Most people that started licensing anime in the states are fanboys themselves who wanted to bring it here & spread it so people could see this amazing media. The guys that ran ADV Films & the people that run Funimation are good examples of that. I don't think alot of people realize how much it costs licensors to license one episode of an anime show. For shows that aren't huge in Japan or that the Japanese & American liceansor aren't sure will become the next Dragonball Z, are usually somewhere between $25,000 to $50,000 episode. Shows like Dragonball Z, Bleach, Naruto, the big name anime, can range from $100,000 to $150,000 or more an episode. Because it's expensive for the Japanese to make anime. There is so much too making anime, so many people are apart of it & they all need to get paid their contribution. This isn't done to make them rich, it's so they get the money they put into the show & so they have money to make more. Of course they want to profit from this, but that's the truth with any business industry. People want to make money, it's a business after all. But they also love making these shows & stories just like how the fans love watching them.

I'm going to wrap this up because I could go on & on on this one topic & depending on how many anime fans comment on this topic, I probably will bring up more topics that effect the industry. The fact is that the anime industry is dying. We as fans of these shows have the obligation to support the creators of these shows instead of stealing these shows. If you condone that, you aren't a fan of anime, you are a leech on the industry, sucking the life blood out of it. In the United States we still have the chance to turn this around. If you want the anime industry to turn in the United Kingdom's anime industry, keep on watching fansubs & bootlegs & reading scanlations. But it's only a matter of time before anime dies worldwide. I'm not saying that anime will completely be gone, but the amount of anime & different anime, the choices of how much anime there is to watch, ect, will be gone. The big names here in the west that license these shows are Funimation, Viz Media, Manga Entertainment & Bandai Entertainment. Gonzo Animation Studio is in trouble too. These companies are holding onto a hope & a prayer to continue licensing anime. I have seen the anime sections of so many stores get smaller & smaller over the last five years that it's scary how close we are to losing it all. If one person that reads this is educated on this topic by reading this, then I will have succeeded in what I set out to do with this thread. If you have any counter arguements, comments, questions, ect. I welcome the discourse on this. My final thought of this post is that I hope people start buying or watching these shows legally. Remember how fragile this house of cards really is.

If you didn't copy and paste, I applaud you.lonewolf604

No, I actually took two hours or so typing this up. Whew... But thank you.

To me, Anime died when Gohan defeated Cell. It was epic. Nothing can top that. :P imho of course. I'll be honest, I didn't read all of it. I think you set the record for largest forum post. :PElann2008

Yeah, I knew that it was going to be long. There are just so many things I wanted to get to & I didn't even get to address them all. I just put the things that really effect the industry directly that stuck out to me from what I've read & heard from people that are in the industry online from many different anime websites, youtube, ect. This topic really gets my blood boiling because I love anime & I want to do everything I can to keep it alive. So I do eveything I can to keep it alive by buying shows that interest me & watching shows that are licensed & being aired online or on television.

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"]If you didn't copy and paste, I applaud you.ElectronicMagic

No, I actually took two hours or so typing this up. Whew... But thank you.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too long. JuggaloRandall

I know, but if you would like to know more about this but don't want to read all of this. Then you can watch Greg Ayre's fansubs panel on youtube. I would link it but I can't because my browser doesn't support that feature here. I touch on a lot of what Greg Ayre's talks about & alot of it was what I've read & heard from anime news websites.

[QUOTE="JuggaloRandall"]Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too long. ElectronicMagic

I know, but if you would like to know more about this but don't want to read all of this. Then you can watch Greg Ayre's fansubs panel on youtube. I would link it but I can't because my browser doesn't support that feature here. I touch on a lot of what Greg Ayre's talks about & alot of it was what I've read & heard from anime news websites.

That's a lot of text.

I take it you mean the anime localization industry.

If that is what you mean: I couldn't care less. As far as I'm concerned, none of these big companies contain even a fraction of the talent present in the better fansubbing collectives like Frostii, Menclave, or Eclipse (the last of which just went inactive, unfortunately.) It seems like they're instead set on making a product which is not intended for people who actually watch anime. This is why fansubbing is so rampant: a lot of people prefer what fansubbers put out. Not because it's free, but because it's straight-up better.

These companies also pick up a lot of crap shows (dime-a-dozen throw-away shounen series) and do not localize a huge number of awesome series..this is another reason why fansubbing is more popular. They are getting better about picking up the good series, true, but the fact remains that they do not offer a superior "product" to what fansubbers provide (even with cost/lack-thereof completely out of the equation.) Not to mention the C-rate voice work most series get (not all are sub-par, just most.) The problem is that by the time a series gets licensed and localized, fansubbers have already done it first, and done it better.

The way I see it..if you support the people who originally make these series with DVD & merchandise purchases (preferably imported), that's fine. The localization industry simply needs to improve; they have tons of stuff they could be doing better. If the localization industry first has to die and be reborn to compete with fansubbers, so be it.

All I'm saying: you know something is wrong when the people who get PAID to do this cannot compete with the work quality of people who do it for free, for the simple love of their hobby.

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"]If you didn't copy and paste, I applaud you.JuggaloRandall

No, I actually took two hours or so typing this up. Whew... But thank you.

It's completely fine. I didn't take any offense or anything to it. It was a lot to read & take in for anyone. I just hope I made a compelling arguement for those who read it. I remember watching that back in the day. I also stopped watching Dragonball Z after that, I tried to get into the Majin Buu saga, but I too lost interest after the cell saga. But my interest is back now that it's been nearly a decade since I saw Dragonball Z & now Dragonball Z Kai is being aired on The CW Toonzai block on Saturday mornings & Nicktoons Network(the next new episode is episode 37 & will air on October 20th, they've been on hiatus for awhile airing reruns of the first 36 episodes). I personally think Dragonball Z Kai is superior because it cuts out all of the filler. Fights no longer drag on for a dozen or more episodes. They end usually within five. I agree with you that Bleach's new episodes aren't the best. It's because it's a filler arc. I think that as it goes on it will start building up better episodes. They are in the earlier grace period of explaining who the characters are, who the new characters are, what's going on, ect. Kekkaishi took forever it seems to build up. I have a few manga, but I am predominatly an anime fan. I too watch mostly the episodes that air on television. Either on Adult Swim, Syfy, Nicktoons or Disney XD which are pretty much the only networks that show anime. But I do buy them on XBOX Live & watch the Anime Network on Video on Demand.

Cool

But that won't stop me.

I've intended to buy numerous shows over the years but I can't find a justification for spending upwards of $200 AUD (around the same price USD) to buy 4 volumes of a single series, then another $200 or so for the second series. I bought Cowboy Bebop for $100 AUD and that was on sale!

PS: Clannad is ******* expensive.

Sure you can get crappy fansubs (srsly Kazamasubs are the worst) but if you have any brains you can figure it out for yourself, and if it isn't meant to be presented as the creators wished then they should at least be happy that people out there are at least seeing it. If a musician releases a song they shouldn't care if some people don't like it, they should be happy it's being talked about. (this paragraph sounds stupid now).

Anyway, not saying what you've just posted isn't true. Personally I'm against bootlegging, but fansubs and such I believe are essential to the culture.

btw thoughts on Fall Lineup?

[QUOTE="JuggaloRandall"][QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

No, I actually took two hours or so typing this up. Whew... But thank you.

It's completely fine. I didn't take any offense or anything to it. It was a lot to read & take in for anyone. I just hope I made a compelling arguement for those who read it. I remember watching that back in the day. I also stopped watching Dragonball Z after that, I tried to get into the Majin Buu saga, but I too lost interest after the cell saga. But my interest is back now that it's been nearly a decade since I saw Dragonball Z & now Dragonball Z Kai is being aired on The CW Toonzai block on Saturday mornings & Nicktoons Network(the next new episode is episode 37 & will air on October 20th, they've been on hiatus for awhile airing reruns of the first 36 episodes). I personally think Dragonball Z Kai is superior because it cuts out all of the filler. Fights no longer drag on for a dozen or more episodes. They end usually within five. I agree with you that Bleach's new episodes aren't the best. It's because it's a filler arc. I think that as it goes on it will start building up better episodes. They are in the earlier grace period of explaining who the characters are, who the new characters are, what's going on, ect. Kekkaishi took forever it seems to build up. I have a few manga, but I am predominatly an anime fan. I too watch mostly the episodes that air on television. Either on Adult Swim, Syfy, Nicktoons or Disney XD which are pretty much the only networks that show anime. But I do buy them on XBOX Live & watch the Anime Network on Video on Demand.

That's a lot of text.

I take it you mean the anime localization industry.

If that is what you mean: I couldn't care less. As far as I'm concerned, none of these big companies contain even a fraction of the talent present in the better fansubbing collectives like Frostii, Menclave, or Eclipse (the last of which just went inactive, unfortunately.) It seems like they're instead set on making a product which is not intended for people who actually watch anime. This is why fansubbing is so rampant: a lot of people prefer what fansubbers put out. Not because it's free, but because it's straight-up better.

These companies also pick up a lot of crap shows (dime-a-dozen throw-away shounen series) and do not localize a huge number of awesome series..this is another reason why fansubbing is more popular. They are getting better about picking up the good series, true, but the fact remains that they do not offer a superior "product" to what fansubbers provide (even with cost/lack-thereof completely out of the equation.) Not to mention the C-rate voice work most series get (not all are sub-par, just most.) The problem is that by the time a series gets licensed and localized, fansubbers have already done it first, and done it better.

The way I see it..if you support the people who originally make these series with DVD & merchandise purchases (preferably imported), that's fine. The localization industry simply needs to improve; they have tons of stuff they could be doing better. If the localization industry first has to die and be reborn to compete with fansubbers, so be it.

Velocitas8

No, I mean the anime industry as a whole. I would disagree with what you think is why fansubbers are so rampant. If you watch fansubs you will notice the lack of quality. In either video or translation. The people that do fansubs aren't script writers, don't have access to the creators of these shows, they are simply translators. Usually college kids that don't do this professionally & don't fact check, don't have a strict translation process or check points & guidelines like the licensors have. The Japanese creators have a big hand in what we see & they themselves watch what American licensors do to make sure they do it right like I said in my original post. The fact is that fansubbing is killing the entire anime industry because none of the money that Japanese companies forked out to create these shows is getting back to them. If you buy from a licensor or import it directly for Japan, it actually goes to them so they can keep making these shows.

Authors, artists & voice actors aren't rich. They are doing what they do because they love what they do. Japanese authors & artists are often broke for a long time while they are working on new stories & new art. Which can takes 6 months to a year or more to produce. So are you telling me that it's okay to watch something for free, that in no way supports the people that made these shows or manga? A few years ago when a few anime studios closed there was a panic about what was going to happen next, companies like Funimation helped bail them out by investing in them. So the licensing industry here in the states is directly helping keep the anime industry afloat back in Japan.

If you think that English dubs aren't done well than that must just be an opinion based on what you prefer in terms of the Japanese dub versus the English. Which is probably something I couldn't reason with you on. I think both dubbed and subbed are great. Heck I'm sure some fansubbers do a great job, but the majority don't. They don't contribute to the industry & are sucking it dry. If you want to watch it subbed, why not buy it legally & watch the dvd or whatever media you prefer, but watch it with the Japanese language & English subtitles? The option is there on nearly all anime releases by licensors. Or watch it on hulu.com, funimation.com, ect, for free & subbed or dubbed, which is your choice which to watch it in. What not do that? The money then trickles back to the creators in Japan. Crunchyroll & the like aren't helping the anime industry here or in Japan, they are killing it.

Also since you are bringing up the instant gratification arguement that it's faster to watch it subbed then waiting for the license, then you don't care whether or not you are harming the industry as long as you get the product quicker. Many licensors are starting to simulcast shows online that air in Japan. I believe Funimation did that with Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. Thank you for the reply.

btw thoughts on Fall Lineup?freek666

Not OP, but I personally think it looks pretty bleak.

I actually haven't watched any anime in a while. Still need to finish up Yojouhan Shinwa Taikei and catch up on Katanagatari.

Cool

But that won't stop me.

I've intended to buy numerous shows over the years but I can't find a justification for spending upwards of $200 AUD (around the same price USD) to buy 4 volumes of a single series, then another $200 or so for the second series. I bought Cowboy Bebop for $100 AUD and that was on sale!

PS: Clannad is ******* expensive.

Sure you can get crappy fansubs (srsly Kazamasubs are the worst) but if you have any brains you can figure it out for yourself, and if it isn't meant to be presented as the creators wished then they should at least be happy that people out there are at least seeing it. If a musician releases a song they shouldn't care if some people don't like it, they should be happy it's being talked about. (this paragraph sounds stupid now).

Anyway, not saying what you've just posted isn't true. Personally I'm against bootlegging, but fansubs and such I believe are essential to the culture.

btw thoughts on Fall Lineup?

freek666

Thanks for responding. I guess I have a question for you. Why not watch it on hulu.com or funimation.com? With fansubs the money doesn't go back to Japan in anyway. Sure it gets out there & people see it & talk about it. But that doesn't translate into actual money exchanging hands. Which means that they don't have money to produce more anime. I'm not just worried about the localization here in the states but more so of anime back in Japan. If a singer releases a song I agree they shouldn't care if people like it or not, but the people that do like it should buy it so that person can make more songs. Not steal it so that person can't do what they love & what we love to watch.

So far I'm pretty happy with the Fall lineup here in the states & in Japan. I watch dubbed anime so I haven't seen the shows that haven't been dubbed yet. But there are shows in Japan that I hope get an American release. Togainu no chi -Bloody Curs- is something I'm looking forward to & I'm pretty sure that's making it's way here, Psychic Detetive Yakumo, Samurai Girls & The World Only God Knows look good aswell. I believe it's being aired now in Japan. I'm not sure but I'm really looking forward to seeing more Vampire Knight, Durara!, Mobile Suit Gundam 00 more of the series & movie, Bleach: Fade to Black, I call your name movie. Those are the ones off the top of my head.

Why won't they continue dubbing FMA brotherhood?! It stopped at ep 26!! on topic, I don't really watch anime, I only watch the good ones(which are WAY too few).woonsa

Don't worry, the reason it stopped is because Adult Swim wants to keep the interest there. They can get more people watching it if they stop for awhile & air reruns of what they already showed. The series is 50 or so episodes so the next time they start up episodes will probably when the rest of the series will finish. The whole series is dubbed already from what I understand. Keep an eye out on Adult Swim, it will be coming back probably before the end of the year. Probably when Kekkaishi goes on hiatus.

25 dollars for a dvd of 6 episodes of a 24 episode show is ridicules and plain stupid and so is charging 50 dollars for one count em one movie i buy some stuff but i would go broke if i bought all the stuff i like its so damn expensive...fl4tlined

Alot of people think this way & I touched on it a bit in my original post. The reason it is expensive is because licensors need to insure that they get the money they put into it back. Fansubbing is affecting how much they get out of selling an anime on dvd that they are forced to have those prices. But back in the day it was much more expensive than it is now if you wanted to watch a whole series. Also if you want to support the industry, not just here in the states but back in Japan aswell, you will find a way to watch it legally so that money gets back to the creators of the anime you watch. There are many ways to watch it for "free" that is legal. Hulu.com, funimation.com are two good examples of this. Advertising on those sites makes it so you can watch anime without paying anything, but money still gets back to the licensors & most importantly, back to the Japanese creators.

The people that do fansubs aren't script writers, don't have access to the creators of these shows, they are simply translators.

Irrelevant..sounds like you're grasping at straws. None of this is necessary to translate/edit, and you know it. You're trying to make it sound like some arcane art that only "the chosen" can perform :roll:

Usually college kids that don't do this professionally & don't fact check, don't have a strict translation process or check points & guidelines like the licensors have.

"Don't fact check?" Explain please. Also, provide an example from a reputable fansubbing group. Thanks.

As for the rest of that sentence: NOT true AT ALL. You are making your ignorance obvious..I think you need to do some homework on what actually goes on in the better fansubbing groups. Join up on one of their IRC channels on Rizon and talk to some of the people who actually fansub if you want to get informed (though it doesn't sound like you do.) The better ones out there are actually extremely professional and organized. It's not a bunch of clueless kids..some of these people have been doing this for 10 years or more in specialized roles, and are often far more experienced than those who do this for a living.

So the licensing industry here in the states is directly helping keep the anime industry afloat back in Japan.

Have any articles you can link to discussing this? Considering most series aren't even licensed for distribution outside Japan, I have a very hard time believing that the Japanese anime indsutry relies much on western support..especially when the localization industry is getting a big cut for their (usually-shoddy) work.

Crunchyroll & the like aren't helping the anime industry here or in Japan, they are killing it.

Umm..I think you need to get up-to-date on your info there buddy. I do not like Crunchyroll, never have.. but they actually have the legal rights to the stuff they distribute (and they now remove infringing material.) From what I've heard, they went legit a looong while back.

Also since you are bringing up the instant gratification arguement that it's faster to watch it subbed then waiting for the license, then you don't care whether or not you are harming the industry as long as you get the product quicker.

The "instant gratification" factor is only mentioned as an off-hand added bonus. I don't think it could be any more obvious as to what I meant, but you will interpret it how you want to.ElectronicMagic

^ thats what i do for the most part or watch a anime off netflix instead of bootleggingfl4tlined

That's actually a great idea that I forgot to mention in my original post. I'm glad you watch it legally. Renting is a great way to taste an anime someone might be interested in & if they do like, rent or buy the rest. That makes the argument that anime is too expensive moot because it's very cheap to rent dvds of of netflix. I can't I forgot that, it's such a big aspect of this debate. Thank you for bringing that up.

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]The people that do fansubs aren't script writers, don't have access to the creators of these shows, they are simply translators.

Irrelevant..sounds like you're grasping at straws. None of this is necessary to translate/edit, and you know it. You're trying to make it sound like some arcane art that only "the chosen" can perform :roll:

Usually college kids that don't do this professionally & don't fact check, don't have a strict translation process or check points & guidelines like the licensors have.

"Don't fact check?" Explain please. Also, provide an example from a reputable fansubbing group. Thanks.

As for the rest of that sentence: NOT true AT ALL. You are making your ignorance obvious..I think you need to do some homework on what actually goes on in the better fansubbing groups. Join up on one of their IRC channels on Rizon and talk to some of the people who actually fansub if you want to get informed (though it doesn't sound like you do.) The better ones out there are actually extremely professional and organized. It's not a bunch of clueless kids..some of these people have been doing this for 10 years or more in specialized roles, and are often far more experienced than those who do this for a living.

So the licensing industry here in the states is directly helping keep the anime industry afloat back in Japan.

Have any articles you can link to discussing this? Considering most series aren't even licensed for distribution outside Japan, I have a very hard time believing that the Japanese anime indsutry relies much on western support.

Crunchyroll & the like aren't helping the anime industry here or in Japan, they are killing it.

Umm..I think you need to get up-to-date on your info there buddy. I do not like Crunchyroll, never have.. but they actually have the legal rights to the stuff they distribute (and they now remove infringing material.) From what I've heard, they went legit a looong while back.

Also since you are bringing up the instant gratification arguement that it's faster to watch it subbed then waiting for the license, then you don't care whether or not you are harming the industry as long as you get the product quicker.

The "instant gratification" factor is only an added bonus, I don't think it could be more obvious as to what I meant.Velocitas8

I'm not grasping at straws at all. It's well known that the majority of fansubbers are simply translators. They have no script writing experience that is a big aspect to how a show is perceived by the audience. Things in Japan & in Japanese are often strange & aren't readily understood by a lot of anime fans that are used to anime that is dubbed. I have friends that watched fandubbs of great shows like Soul Eater that were put off by it simply because the fansubbers had no experience as script writers or how to relate the original Japanese meaning to an English speaking audience.

I said it already, they are simply people that do it themselves. There is no process being checked by the Japanese creators of these shows, there is no dedicated team for most of fansubbers to fact check everything like that of licensors that put money into this process for the purpose of being thorough. I don't think you realize how involved the Japanese companies are in subtitles & dubbing & getting both right. It's only in their benefit of getting it right so people don't have a problem with the subs or dub.

I would say you should watch Greg Ayre's panel on youtube where he talks about it. I can't remember what section it was in. It was an anime series that I hadn't watched so I don't remember that word for word. But I do remember that statement that Funimation invested money in Japanese companies & series, more so than simply licensing it for the states. He explains it much better than I can. There are two panels and they are full of industry insider information.

I don't watch Crunchyroll, I know was reading back in the Summer time about how they were in trouble for having non licensed anime on their site. They eventually took it off, but it was on their site for a time.

I myself am guilty of wanting instant gratification from a lot of things. But when it comes to stealing, I don't. I won't steal something & justify it was part of anime culture when it's something that's helping to kill the industry. It's cause & effect. You steal a product, money doesn't go to the creator, the creator doesn't have funding to create new shows. You should have some moral sense of how wrong stealing is in the first place. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone stole what you own, am I right? I bet you will reply with "No." or some arguement similar to that. But we all know that no one likes having what they own stolen. The end result of fansubbing is we all lose. You do, I do, we all do. So defending it & continuing to watch it isn't simply going to hurt me, but in the long run will hurt you aswell.

I'm not going to continue to repeat myself, that's too tiring. Any person with a moral compass knows it's wrong to steal. I'm sure you know that too. Fansubbing is stealing, that's the bottom line. It's just as illegal as walking into a store & walking out with a box set of some anime that you didn't pay for. The only thing that is different is the way in which you steal.

I see it like this, in America right now, anime has been lacking for a while now. I see one of the biggest things killing it is the fact that east outlets into anime that got a lot of kids into it in the late 90s and early 2000s are gone, a lot of entry level channels are gone, Toonami is gone, 4Kids is gone, and WB kids is gone. For a lot of kids that's where the first taste of anime came from. Kids coming up now don't get to see much anime in an easy spot like their TV anymore. The older members who were around to see things like Toonami, or good Toonami are older, in their late teens or early to mid 20s.

Anime in America has always been niche, but now since things like the Japanese gaming market is lacking, piracy, and being able to watch online for free, the dubbing industry is taking hits. The Japanese influence is sliding a lot here in America, and people are trying to get back to more American things, and kids now are too encumbered in their gadgets and westernized video games.

Playstation, which was once the Anime fan's console, PS3 is now westernized, games like Devil May Cry, and even developers are Westernizing, because that's where it's at now.

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"]If you didn't copy and paste, I applaud you.ElectronicMagic

No, I actually took two hours or so typing this up. Whew... But thank you.

I see it like this, in America right now, anime has been lacking for a while now. I see one of the biggest things killing it is the fact that east outlets into anime that got a lot of kids into it in the late 90s and early 2000s are gone, a lot of entry level channels are gone, Toonami is gone, 4Kids is gone, and WB kids is gone. For a lot of kids that's where the first taste of anime came from. Kids coming up now don't get to see much anime in an easy spot like their TV anymore. The older members who were around to see things like Toonami, or good Toonami are older, in their late teens or early to mid 20s.

Anime in America has always been niche, but now since things like the Japanese gaming market is lacking, piracy, and being able to watch online for free, the dubbing industry is taking hits. The Japanese influence is sliding a lot here in America, and people are trying to get back to more American things, and kids now are too encumbered in their gadgets and westernized video games.

Playstation, which was once the Anime fan's console, PS3 is now westernized, games like Devil May Cry, and even developers are Westernizing, because that's where it's at now.

DazedDarkness

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Though WB 4Kids moved to The CW. But a little hope that I see is that The CW 4Kids changed it's line up that used to just a little bit if anime, into Toonzai which is all about anime. That block last from 7AM to 12PM on Saturday mornings. It's sad that things are becoming so westerized. I wish they wouldn't give things over to western developers like with the new Devil May Cry, Dead Rising 2, ect. Things are extremely tough right now for anime. Companies do make mistakes on what anime they decide to license & what anime networks choose to show that don't become hits because they aren't the greatest show. They are guilty of that in a lot of cases. But the fansubbing, piracy, bootlegging, scanlation, ect, make it so companies & networks have no room for error when it comes to what shows they license & what shows they show on television here in the states.

Fansubs, bootlegging & scanlations.

I hope anime/manga fans read this because it's a serious issue that effects us. I know it's long but I hope you read through it if you really care about this industry. If you don't read it all, I hope you read atleast a little bit of it or check out the individual paragraphs to see what topic I am talking about.

I've been wanting to talk about this for a long time. This is something very dear to me as a fan of anime & manga. For those of you that don't know, there is a cancer in the anime & manga industry. It isn't simply effecting anime/manga here in the west but also in Japan. Fansubs, bootlegging & scanlations are killing this industry. Anime/manga is one of the few, if not the only industry that is dying because of their "fans". These so called fans are helping to speed up the death of anime & manga by stealing anime/manga by way of downloading or streaming anime of fansubs & English dubs that have been ripped from the licensors and reading scanlations. These people may not realize how this is effecting the industry. That's one of the reasons why I would like to talk about it here. Before I begin I would like to direct you to Greg Ayre's fansub panel on youtube for more information on this from someone that works in the industry. I will talk alot about what he talks about in that panel here. There are also other people in that panel like Chris Ayres, Kyle Hebert, Taliesin Jaffe & Crispin Freeman that chim in on this problem there. I would link it here, but for some reason I can't. Mostly what I'm going to talk about is anime because it's what I am most familiar with.

For those that don't know what fansubs, bootlegging & scanlations are, I will explain it here. Fansubs are when fans of foreign films, shows, ect, that are subtitled by fans. They are usually uploaded to the internet where people either stream or download said media. Bootlegging is when people that are in no way connected to the original creators, authors, artists of video & audio media release said media without the consent or legal authority of the creators of those products. Scanlations are when people scan, translate & edit, mostly anime, from Japanese(or other languages depending on the product) into a different language. Now that I got that cleared up for the few that don't know what those terms mean, I will begin.

If you're a fan of anime you may or may not be aware of how now is the worst time in anime/manga history. Just in anime alone here in the west companies like ADV Films, Central Park Media, Geneon USA, all died here in the west in the last five years. Other companies like Bandai Entertainment have laid off a substanial amount of employees since then, Bang! Zoom Entertainment's CEO, Eric Sherman said last April that the company will likely stop producting English dubs in 2011 if the industry doesn't start showing signs of improvement. He also made a direct correlation to the deaths of ADV Films, Central Park Media & Geneon USA to the "fans" not buying licensed anime from them here in the west. He also said that "anime is going to die" if fans don't start buying anime from studios that license anime. This is a real threat & not just a scare tactic to get people to buy stuff. You may also have noticed that on television many channels are starting to shed anime from their programming. Cartoon Network ended Toonami, their anime block in 2008 because not enough people were watching it. Now what replaced it? CNReal, shows like Destroy Build Destroy & Dude what would happen? replaced it. So anime fans, what would you rather watch? G4 completely got rid of Anime Unleashed, their anime block back in 2006. What replaced it are reruns of shows like Cops, Cheaters, ect. So anime fans what would you rather watch? IFC & Starz Edge no longer air full anime series on their networks anymore. Every now & then they will show a movie, but that's it. IFC recently brought back Hell Girl & Speed Grapher, testing the waters to see if they wanted to get back into showing anime, but now it's no longer there. Adult Swim used to show anime every night, now it's only on once a week. These are all examples of how anime is dying.

One thing I've read is that people who watch fansubs say that they watch them, but when they are released here they will buy them. This is simply not true. Shows like Naruto & One Piece are good examples of how this isn't true. One Piece is the most illegally streamed & downloaded show in the world. The fact that One Piece & Naruto didn't sell well is because of fansubs & bootlegging. People simply aren't buying this stuff when they can get it for free via fansubs or dubbed anime that is illegally ripped from liceansors. Alot of fans think that they are true fans because they watch fansubs that for some reason they think is how the Japanese intended for people to see them. If you are a true fan you don't simply watch, you support the industry by watching it legally. If you like to watch anime subbed, that's completely fine. You are entitled to enjoy them either subbed or dubbed. However watching it illegally is still stealing & is a cancer on this industry. If you want to watch it subbed there are many ways to do it legally. Nearly all anime dvds, bluray discs, digitally distrubuted releasesm ect, released in America have the option to watch it subtitled. So saying that you can't watch them legally subbed is completely false. If you want to import the Japanese dvds & bluray discs of anime that haven't been licensed elsewhere, you can get many of them imported that are actually subtitled by the Japanese companies themselves.

I've also read that people think by watching fansubs they are watching what the Japanese intended & how they wanted people to see their work. This is simply not true. Ask yourself, do you really think they want you to steal what they worked so hard to make by watching fansubs & bootlegs? Of course they don't. The Japanese are doing everything they can to stop this because they know how bad it is effecting the industry. Shinichrio Wantanbe, the director behind anime like Cowboy Bebop & Samurai Champloo said at a convention that he didn't intend for people to have to read subtitles to see his work. Right there is one example of an anime creator how he intended or didn't intend for his work to be viewed. So if you say you watch fansubs because you think that you are watching what the Japanese creators intended, you couldn't be further from the truth. Fansubs themselves are nearly always not as accurate as what the official commercialized version. Companies like Funimation, Viz Media, Ocean Studios, Studiopolis, Bang Zoom Entertainment, ect, have many people working for them that have to go through a strict translation process, guidelines & fact checking for the subtitles & dubbed anime. The fansubs are nearly always done by college students that aren't professional in anyway, aren't script writers & have no guidelines to accuracy that compaines like those I just mentioned do. The licensors also have direct access to the Japanese creators on everything & can ask them directly what they meant. Those that think the Japanese creators don't watch the English version of their shows don't realize how involved they are in the English version that are licesned in America & around the world.

Another thing that is often said is that here in the west, companies like Funimation, edit way too much of their licensed properties & changed things from the original Japanese product. Well do you know who actually has the final say on those decisions? The Japanese companies that license those properties to American & other countries' companies. Often if not for the most part, the Japanese want this to be changed & request it. Why? Because they want the product to sell. They change certain things to appeal to a western audience. It's that simple. Sometimes things are edited networks & not the actual licensor. Things like Mr. Popo from Dragonball Z/Kai being blue instead of black on The CW, the word "destroy" in place of the word "kill" or in Yugioh how people are sent to the shadow realm instead of how they are killed in the Japanese, who voices these characters, the name changes, the smoking, ect, things like this are usually done or requested by the networks to have an alternate dub or change for the network television release, not the liceansor themselves.

There is also the argument by people that watch fansubs is that licesned anime is too expensive for them to buy. If you are a fan of something, you will find a way to buy it. This may be a sign that you need to find a new job if price is such an issue for you. A big reason why anime is "expensive" is because people are watching fansubs & bootlegs. The way that directly effects how much the legally licensed product is the fact that the licensor has to raise the price so they can get the money that they spent on licensing it back. That money doesn't make these people in the industry rich. That many nearly always goes back into them buying more anime to license. Most people that started licensing anime in the states are fanboys themselves who wanted to bring it here & spread it so people could see this amazing media. The guys that ran ADV Films & the people that run Funimation are good examples of that. I don't think alot of people realize how much it costs licensors to license one episode of an anime show. For shows that aren't huge in Japan or that the Japanese & American liceansor aren't sure will become the next Dragonball Z, are usually somewhere between $25,000 to $50,000 episode. Shows like Dragonball Z, Bleach, Naruto, the big name anime, can range from $100,000 to $150,000 or more an episode. Because it's expensive for the Japanese to make anime. There is so much too making anime, so many people are apart of it & they all need to get paid their contribution. This isn't done to make them rich, it's so they get the money they put into the show & so they have money to make more. Of course they want to profit from this, but that's the truth with any business industry. People want to make money, it's a business after all. But they also love making these shows & stories just like how the fans love watching them.

I'm going to wrap this up because I could go on & on on this one topic & depending on how many anime fans comment on this topic, I probably will bring up more topics that effect the industry. The fact is that the anime industry is dying. We as fans of these shows have the obligation to support the creators of these shows instead of stealing these shows. If you condone that, you aren't a fan of anime, you are a leech on the industry, sucking the life blood out of it. In the United States we still have the chance to turn this around. If you want the anime industry to turn in the United Kingdom's anime industry, keep on watching fansubs & bootlegs & reading scanlations. But it's only a matter of time before anime dies worldwide. I'm not saying that anime will completely be gone, but the amount of anime & different anime, the choices of how much anime there is to watch, ect, will be gone. The big names here in the west that license these shows are Funimation, Viz Media, Manga Entertainment & Bandai Entertainment. These companies are holding onto a hope & a prayer to continue licensing anime. I have seen the anime sections of so many stores get smaller & smaller over the last five years that it's scary how close we are to losing it all. If one person that reads this is educated on this topic by reading this, then I will have succeeded in what I set out to do with this thread. If you have any counter arguements, comments, questions, ect. I welcome the discourse on this. My final thought of this post is that I hope people start buying or watching these shows legally. Remember how fragile this house of cards really is.

ElectronicMagic

I watch fansub mainly because I prefer it in japanese with english subs Is there animie out there that is released that has the original and not redone in english. I have actually given quite a bit of money to these sub sites as donations and wouldn't mind paying for a the service if it was legalised.So if there are places for me to aquire anime in the original with english subs point me to it please.

musalala

I would say to import it directly, rent it on dvd, bluray, ect, here in the states & watch the Japanese language version with English subtitles on, download it from itunes, XBOX live, Playstation Network, watch it on hulu.com or funimation.com or similar sites that air anime that is licensed. Or you could ask your cable or satellite provider if they have Anime Network, Animax or Funimation Channel & watch them there. Just so that however you watch it, the money gets back to the people that created it so that they can continue to keep making it. Giving money to fansubbers doesn't get money back to the original Japanese creators, that's what I want most of all. For them to get money for what they do so we can keep watching new shows. I think we all agree stealing is wrong.

I did not read your post TC, but I agree, anime is dying rapidly. I don't watch anime anymore, the art style, characters, plots, fan service, ecchi...etc are all repetitive and annoying with no value whatsoever. anything +2006=****GazaAli

I understand, it is quite intimidating to read. I just thought I should include everything I could because of how important I think this topic is. I agree that a lot of things are getting repetitive.

animie rocks

animie rocks

AussieePet

[QUOTE="AussieePet"]

animie rocks

GazaAli

At least DBZ rocks.

[QUOTE="musalala"]

I watch fansub mainly because I prefer it in japanese with english subs Is there animie out there that is released that has the original and not redone in english. I have actually given quite a bit of money to these sub sites as donations and wouldn't mind paying for a the service if it was legalised.So if there are places for me to aquire anime in the original with english subs point me to it please.

ElectronicMagic

I would say to import it directly, rent it on dvd, bluray, ect, here in the states & watch the Japanese language version with English subtitles on, download it from itunes, XBOX live, Playstation Network, watch it on hulu.com or funimation.com or similar sites that air anime that is licensed. Just so that however you watch it, the money gets back to the people that created it so that they can continue to keep making it. Giving money to fansubbers doesn't get money back to the original Japanese creators, that's what I want most of all. For them to get money for what they do so we can keep watching new shows. I think we all agree stealing is wrong.

Ok so basically it is possible to buy the dvd's and they will have the original *** audio with english subs? or does all localised Anime only come as English dub? sorry for sounding like a noob but I watched death note and Gundam in english and I still have nightmares about it.

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

[QUOTE="musalala"]

I watch fansub mainly because I prefer it in japanese with english subs Is there animie out there that is released that has the original and not redone in english. I have actually given quite a bit of money to these sub sites as donations and wouldn't mind paying for a the service if it was legalised.So if there are places for me to aquire anime in the original with english subs point me to it please.

musalala

I would say to import it directly, rent it on dvd, bluray, ect, here in the states & watch the Japanese language version with English subtitles on, download it from itunes, XBOX live, Playstation Network, watch it on hulu.com or funimation.com or similar sites that air anime that is licensed. Just so that however you watch it, the money gets back to the people that created it so that they can continue to keep making it. Giving money to fansubbers doesn't get money back to the original Japanese creators, that's what I want most of all. For them to get money for what they do so we can keep watching new shows. I think we all agree stealing is wrong.

Ok so basically it is possible to buy the dvd's and they will have the original *** audio with english subs? or does all localised Anime only come as English dub? sorry for sounding like a noob but I watched death note and Gundam in english and I still have nightmares about it.

[QUOTE="musalala"]

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

I would say to import it directly, rent it on dvd, bluray, ect, here in the states & watch the Japanese language version with English subtitles on, download it from itunes, XBOX live, Playstation Network, watch it on hulu.com or funimation.com or similar sites that air anime that is licensed. Just so that however you watch it, the money gets back to the people that created it so that they can continue to keep making it. Giving money to fansubbers doesn't get money back to the original Japanese creators, that's what I want most of all. For them to get money for what they do so we can keep watching new shows. I think we all agree stealing is wrong.

demonkd

Ok so basically it is possible to buy the dvd's and they will have the original *** audio with english subs? or does all localised Anime only come as English dub? sorry for sounding like a noob but I watched death note and Gundam in english and I still have nightmares about it.

Thank you U have converted one person

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

[QUOTE="musalala"]

I watch fansub mainly because I prefer it in japanese with english subs Is there animie out there that is released that has the original and not redone in english. I have actually given quite a bit of money to these sub sites as donations and wouldn't mind paying for a the service if it was legalised.So if there are places for me to aquire anime in the original with english subs point me to it please.

musalala

I would say to import it directly, rent it on dvd, bluray, ect, here in the states & watch the Japanese language version with English subtitles on, download it from itunes, XBOX live, Playstation Network, watch it on hulu.com or funimation.com or similar sites that air anime that is licensed. Just so that however you watch it, the money gets back to the people that created it so that they can continue to keep making it. Giving money to fansubbers doesn't get money back to the original Japanese creators, that's what I want most of all. For them to get money for what they do so we can keep watching new shows. I think we all agree stealing is wrong.

Ok so basically it is possible to buy the dvd's and they will have the original *** audio with english subs? or does all localised Anime only come as English dub? sorry for sounding like a noob but I watched death note and Gundam in english and I still have nightmares about it.

Nearly all anime on DVD & bluray also have the original Japanese audio with English subtitles. They would really get fans angry if they didn't include that option. They also include tons of extras. I forgot to mention in my reply but I edited it and put it in there is that you can look & see if you have Anime Network, Funimation Channel or Animax on your cable or satillite provider. Anime Network & Funimation Channel are Video On Demand channels on Directv, Dish Network & a lot of cable networks. You can look them up on wikipedia. Animax is the world's largest 24/7 anime channel. They show anime that is subtitled in English & have Japanese audio. They also show anime that is dubbed, some of them they make themselves, some they gets from the United States licensed dubs. Animax is available in many countries, but not yet in America though there are rumors & rumblings that it will come to the states eventually. But if you live in one of those countries you should be able to find it.

[QUOTE="musalala"]

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

I would say to import it directly, rent it on dvd, bluray, ect, here in the states & watch the Japanese language version with English subtitles on, download it from itunes, XBOX live, Playstation Network, watch it on hulu.com or funimation.com or similar sites that air anime that is licensed. Just so that however you watch it, the money gets back to the people that created it so that they can continue to keep making it. Giving money to fansubbers doesn't get money back to the original Japanese creators, that's what I want most of all. For them to get money for what they do so we can keep watching new shows. I think we all agree stealing is wrong.

ElectronicMagic

Ok so basically it is possible to buy the dvd's and they will have the original *** audio with english subs? or does all localised Anime only come as English dub? sorry for sounding like a noob but I watched death note and Gundam in english and I still have nightmares about it.

Nearly all anime on DVD & bluray also have the original Japanese audio with English subtitles. They would really get fans angry if they didn't include that option. They also include tons of extras. I forgot to mention in my reply but I edited it and put it in there is that you can look & see if you have Anime Network, Funimation Channel or Animax on your cable or satillite provider. Anime Network & Funimation Channel are Video On Demand channels on Directv, Dish Network & a lot of cable networks. You can look them up on wikipedia. Animax is the world's largest 24/7 anime channel. They show anime that is subtitled in English & have Japanese audio. They also show anime that is dubbed, some of them they make themselves, some they gets from the United States licensed dubs. Animax is available in many countries, but not yet in America though there are rumors & rumblings that it will come to the states eventually. But if you live in one of those countries you should be able to find it.

We have animax in South Africa but its all english:cry:

I'm not grasping at straws at all. It's well known that the majority of fansubbers are simply translators. They have no script writing experience that is a big aspect to how a show is perceived by the audience. Things in Japan & in Japanese are often strange & aren't readily understood by a lot of anime fans that are used to anime that is dubbed. I have friends that watched fandubbs of great shows like Soul Eater that were put off by it simply because the fansubbers had no experience as script writers or how to relate the original Japanese meaning to an English speaking audience.

Again you express your ignorance as to what exactly is involved in fansubbing. Lines DO NOT simply get translated and then inserted into a script. You seem to have this absurdly-simple concept of how fansub groups are organized, and it just does not work like you're describing. There are positions in even the most mediocre fansub groups with the SPECIFIC PURPOSE of changing rigid, literal translations into something that flows well. Many of these people even possess English degrees if the recruitment postings I've seen are any indication (and it isn't uncommon for one talented individual to be working in multiple groups simultaneously.) The higher-quality groups generally have more than one editor, working as only one small part of what is a well-structured and multi-staged process. You make it sound like all fansub groups are a rag-tag group of amateurs..and that's just not the case (yes MOST are, but these groups generally have poor leadership, meaning they die out just as quickly as they are started.)

This is just my basic understanding from the outside looking in, too. Fansub group structure is probably a lot more complex than I understand.

I also have studied Japanese and understand a decent amount of conversational Japanese myself (college-level courses, NOT self-taught), and I can tell you that the better fansub groups are typically more accurate in conveying what is being said than commercial translators/editors. Localization companies have this nasty habit of "over-localizing" to the point of changing the tone and sometimes even the intended meaning of a line significantly. If anything, it's the localization companies that do not accurately convey the script, NOT the more talented fansubbing collectives out there who go for the more literal interpretations. This is actually one of my BIGGEST REASONS for not liking dubs. From what I've heard it's also the DRIVING FORCE for some of the people INVOLVED in fansubbing: they do not like that companies are butchering scripts for the sake of appealing to the lowest common denominatior.

There is no process being checked by the Japanese creators of these shows.

I don't believe that happens in the first place. Translation is translation. They aren't re-writing the script, they are translating it. Stop trying to act like those two processes are even remotely connected. There is NO reason for the original creators to oversee it, and I would say that you're making things up (or simply repeating incorrect information) if you are trying to state that they do. It sounds completely absurd.

I would say you should watch Greg Ayre's panel on youtube where he talks about it. I can't remember what section it was in. It was an anime series that I hadn't watched so I don't remember that word for word. But I do remember that statement that Funimation invested money in Japanese companies & series, more so than simply licensing it for the states. He explains it much better than I can. There are two panels and they are full of industry insider information.

No offense to Greg, but he is a voice actor of the lowest standing in my mind: a dub voice actor. Hardly an "insider", seeing as his job can be summarized as "reading often-butchered scripts for a microphone." Not really someone whose opinion I would care about..people will say anything when their livelihood is at stake. Now I'm sorry that it's his livelihood at stake as a result of fansubbers, but these companies only have themselves to blame for putting out inferior products.

I myself am guilty of wanting instant gratification from a lot of things. But when it comes to stealing, I don't. I won't steal something & justify it was part of anime culture when it's something that's helping to kill the industry. It's cause & effect. You steal a product, money doesn't go to the creator, the creator doesn't have funding to create new shows. You should have some moral sense of how wrong stealing is in the first place. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone stole what you own, am I right? I bet you will reply with "No." or some arguement similar to that. But we all know that no one likes having what they own stolen. The end result of fansubbing is we all lose. You do, I do, we all do. So defending it & continuing to watch it isn't simply going to hurt me, but in the long run will hurt you aswell.

I'm not going to continue to repeat myself, that's too tiring. Any person with a moral compass knows it's wrong to steal. I'm sure you know that too. Fansubbing is stealing, that's the bottom line. It's just as illegal as walking into a store & walking out with a box set of some anime that you didn't pay for. The only thing that is different is the way in which you steal.

You're arguing with the wrong person on this one. I am not about to try and justify piracy. If there were a paid service on par with what the better fansubbing groups offer, I would gladly partake in it..but by that time (if it EVER happens) I'll probably have a high fluency in the language as I move forward with my language studies. Until then, I'll keep importing what I can. Being able to hear and read a lot of Japanese helps with the course studies anyway (though I've been watching more foreign drama than anime these days.)

I genuinely wish people did not have to resort to copyright infringement to get any enjoyment from the medium.ElectronicMagic

[QUOTE="demonkd"]

[QUOTE="musalala"]

Ok so basically it is possible to buy the dvd's and they will have the original *** audio with english subs? or does all localised Anime only come as English dub? sorry for sounding like a noob but I watched death note and Gundam in english and I still have nightmares about it.

musalala

Thank you U have converted one person

Too long, did not read to be honest. But I agree with you if you're saying anime is in the decline. 10+ years ago, I would go out and buy dvds, manga, etc. Spent hundreds of dollars on that stuff. Nowadays, so many people simply pirate the stuff and several distributors/licensers/studios have lost so much money or gone out of business. The quality of the anime nowadays just isn't as good as it once was in the 1980/1990s.

[QUOTE="ElectronicMagic"]

[QUOTE="musalala"]

Ok so basically it is possible to buy the dvd's and they will have the original *** audio with english subs? or does all localised Anime only come as English dub? sorry for sounding like a noob but I watched death note and Gundam in english and I still have nightmares about it.

musalala

Nearly all anime on DVD & bluray also have the original Japanese audio with English subtitles. They would really get fans angry if they didn't include that option. They also include tons of extras. I forgot to mention in my reply but I edited it and put it in there is that you can look & see if you have Anime Network, Funimation Channel or Animax on your cable or satillite provider. Anime Network & Funimation Channel are Video On Demand channels on Directv, Dish Network & a lot of cable networks. You can look them up on wikipedia. Animax is the world's largest 24/7 anime channel. They show anime that is subtitled in English & have Japanese audio. They also show anime that is dubbed, some of them they make themselves, some they gets from the United States licensed dubs. Animax is available in many countries, but not yet in America though there are rumors & rumblings that it will come to the states eventually. But if you live in one of those countries you should be able to find it.

We have animax in South Africa but its all english:cry:

I would give a lot of money for that channel. I'm sorry that they don't give you the option to watch it in Japanese with English subtitles. What is that channel like? I love dubs so I would probably love that channel, but in your opinion do they show good anime? Would the channel be good in your opinion if the anime that is on it was in Japanese with English subtitles?

Too long, did not read to be honest. But I agree with you if you're saying anime is in the decline. 10+ years ago, I would go out and buy dvds, manga, etc. Spent hundreds of dollars on that stuff. Nowadays, so many people simply pirate the stuff and several distributors/licensers/studios have lost so much money or gone out of business. The quality of the anime nowadays just isn't as good as it once was in the 1980/1990s.CommanderShiro

To be fair, I think that has more to do with studios mass-producing that moé bull**** that anime fans eat up. Not piracy.

[QUOTE="CommanderShiro"]Too long, did not read to be honest. But I agree with you if you're saying anime is in the decline. 10+ years ago, I would go out and buy dvds, manga, etc. Spent hundreds of dollars on that stuff. Nowadays, so many people simply pirate the stuff and several distributors/licensers/studios have lost so much money or gone out of business. The quality of the anime nowadays just isn't as good as it once was in the 1980/1990s.Velocitas8

To be fair, I think that has more to do with studios mass-producing that moé bull**** that anime fans eat up. Not piracy.

Wft is going on in here? :lol:

This reminds me of the time OT trolled that thread with an unbelievably long OP criticizing the Odyssey on a different website.

This clip is from an actual subbed episode of Code Geass:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TSagwRBOuw

I have also seen that dubs tend to be more accurate and enjoy them better than subs if done well. Not to say all subs can't convey the feeling of a show very well...