BBC: European Court Upholds French Full Veil Ban.

The European Court of Human Rights has upheld a ban by France on wearing the Muslim full-face veil - the niqab.

Oh you French, don't hate if you can't duplicate. What say you OT?

I really couldn't care any less about what kind of clothing people want to wear.

I think people should be able to wear what they want, but this I'm kind of on the fence about. I see their point, it does conceal identity, it covers as much of the face as a ski mask. If someone were to rob a bank or steal something or commit some kind of illegality, this is the outfit to do it in. The dress conceals the whole body so an accurate description of body type is difficult, and the face is completely obscured except for the eyes, which makes you damn near unidentifiable.

Not that I think any of the small number of muslim women who wear the full face covering would use it to commit a crime, but anyone can buy one or make one and you're basically golden to do whatever you want in broad daylight with nobody thinking you're suspicious wearing a full covering like that, and nobody could identify you.

I don't agree or disagree with the decision, but I do see the reason why they're banning it, and it has nothing to do with the religion.

That's cray. France really seems to have it out for Muslims.

Muslims have it out for everyone else so you can't really blame them for fighting against Sharia Law in their own nation.

Wear whatever you want so long as it does not obscure your identity in public. Really easy concept.

Might also help Muslim women escape the subjugation their religion imposes on them.

Good. Keep their violent, backward ass culture in the middle east.

This isn't in any way about Sharia law though?

"She said she was under no family pressure to wear the niqab, but chose to do so as a matter of religious freedom, as a devout Muslim." "France has about five million Muslims - the largest Muslim minority in Western Europe - but it is thought only about 2,000 women wear full veils."

Given only a tiny percentage take up the veil they don't sound very subjugated.

They do have the option to move to a muslim country and continue wearing that veil if they feel that strongly.

So if you'd lived in a country all your life, maybe you're even the second or greater generation of your family and consider yourself that nationality you'd be happy to just up sticks and move if the state started to infringe on your religious freedoms and dictate how you dress?

France has a growing community of French converts to Islam. The majority of the muslim women who are wearing niqabs in France are actually not born arab muslims, it is actually the French converts to Islam who are wearing them. So where should these women go to?

lol at countries imposing dress codes

**** that

That's nice. How many do you think would continue to wear it if they were given the choice? How many women from Saudi Arabia have spoken up about their lack of ability to do anything besides, essentially, be a vessel for their husband's seed?

Islam is an inherently anti-woman religion. Read the Qur'an. It's all in there, and according to Muslims, is the literal word of God. Perfect, complete and unchanged for 1500 years. At least the New Testament part of the Bible doesn't give husbands permission to beat their wives if they are talking back.

And let's remember here. Most Muslim women are only in the very preliminary stages of their sexual awakening (i.e. like the one America went through in the 1950-60's). Do you really think they will continue to dress so "modestly" when they become exposed to more empowering messages spread by Western feminists?

Sounds just like the movements in the US back in the early 20th century after the introduction of Buddhism and Hinduism. People converting to a new religion because it's fashionable (i.e. everyone else is doing it) or "exotic" (i.e. it's "ancient wisdom" that predates the current majority religion).

Those women could easily move to Muslim countries. What would their ethnicity have to do with anything? Muslims love having their own kind around.

^^^^^Don't matter. Lets say 1,000 or just 1 woman sincerely wanted to use the niqab, should she be able?

well, there's a big anti-Muslim sentiment in France, because of the Arab population due to their former colonies

doesn't seem to be a good reason behind the ban, there really isn't a legitimate threat of veiled women posing a security risk, if anything this just seems to be an arbitrary move to antagonize the Muslim population in France

as progressive as Europe seems at times they sometimes fail in respects to racial/ethnic tolerance

This will do nothing but increase tensions between Christians and Muslims.

Makes sense. It hides identity.

@lamprey263:

This what people aren't getting. France didn't impose this ban because they were so concerned with the well being of muslim women. They imposed it because of the anti-arab/muslim atmosphere in France. People keep thinking the French are foward thinking people, but a large portion of them are bigoted.

Au contraire.....if it's allowed then anyone can use the clothing. Not just Muslim women. You need to be a little progressive thinking yourself and not stay inside the box.

Par for the course, that's an incredibly nonsensical thing of you to say. What does it even mean to "fight against Sharia law in their own nation"? Seriously explain that to me, if you could that is.

Except seeing how Islam has been relentlessly antagonized for the past 15 years or so worldwide, there's nothing fashionable or exotic about converting to it. Furthermore, Islam is a creed that expects of its adherents strict self-discipline, temperance, decency and a stern abstention from many worldly possessions and pleasures. It also go against many of the widely celebrated and almost consecrated joys and wonders modern civilization has to offer. With that said, I honestly can't see why someone would choose to adhere to Islam out of fashionability or exoticism. The only plausible and sensical/rational explanation as for why someone would choose to profess to the Islamic faith and be willing to sacrifice a lot in its name is a strong and thorough conviction in the Islamic creed.

I don't disagree that it should be outlawed. It's patently anti-social, in my opinion and I come from a non-practising Muslim family.

What I do have a problem with, however, is their agenda behind the ban. They're targeting Muslims because they're Muslim, not because of an item of clothing they happen to wear. They might put on a public veil *excuse the pun*, but they have ulterior motives and 'democracy' doesn't come into it.

Well, they can move to the Middle East if they want to wear veils so much.

.. Uh buddy you do know we have dress code laws as well in the United States.. Try walking around in public with a ski mask on during summer time or just in your briefs, see what happens..

The problem is that so are most other major religions: Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc... They all just need to go. The moment we finally leave behind these horrible ideologies the better off we will be as a society.

And yes, the new testament is sexist as well. It tells women to basically be slaves to their husbands, be silent in church, dress modestly (sounds familiar), etc... And speaking of that topic, it also condones actual slavery. So yeah, people should stop trying to act like one religions is better than another. They are all bad.

They're French citizens so no they don't have to move to the Middle East to wear them. Unless France is ok with openly discriminating against its citizens.

Well that's nice too but this is France where they do have the choice.

I know it's all there, just as genocide, not eating shell fish etc is in the Bible, also unchanged and the word of God, yet we're not going around butchering people and the last time i've checked there haven't been any major protests around seafood restaurants. Lets face it, every religion picks and chooses, the issue is the establishment and those in positions of power not the religion. There's still many trying to oppress LGBT individuals using Christianity.

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12) - Funny how that one is overlooked.

Anyway i don't get why that came up as this is France and not the Middle East.

What's the point of the last bit? It's irrelevant how popular it is or will be in the future, if you want to dress conservatively or religiously you should have the choice.

Since when did you care if other countries discriminate against it's citizens?

Why is that a bad thing? You may not like it and you may feel that it goes against your own values and perception of liberty, but again the law does not target you. I personally find swearing in movies and shows humorous when done right of course, but if some people feel the opposite then so be it. If some people are feeling the need to promote traditional values then again so be it, whatever makes them sleep better at night. Its not like banning swearing in movies would undermine the quality of life for Russians or anything. I bet they have better things to worry about.

I know this may sound quite shocking to some of you, but there are cultures and peoples out there that do not share the same values of other- currently more dominant cultures. With that said, you may question the intentions and pretexts of that legislation, but that would be a different matter than questioning the legislation itself.

Can you not see the hypocrisy here? Isn't it the French's decision on what they do in their own country? Yes banning it may go against your values but their values aren't yours.

What country do you live in? I see people walking around shirtless or in boxers/swimsuits. As far as I've ever seen our only laws (at least that get enforced) are against nudity.

Although fair enough we don't allow public nudity and we should.

I feel bad for you that you went to such great lengths to discredit me only to see you fail without any real effort. The only difference between Russia and France is that the former does not claim moral superiority alongside values such as tolerance, diversity and the abolition of discrimination. Russia the state and the society does not define itself along those lines. France claims all of that and the French society defines itself as a beacon of all these values therefore I feel inclined to judge France and its policies and social views from that perspective.

Reasonable call, in part due to considering the abuse of woman's rights under the guise of "cultural differences." Secondly, security and identity concerns with respect to public places.

How did I go through great lengths? That took less than a minute to type.

So this has nothing to do with right or wrong, just whether they are consistent or not? So if the French government said they hated Muslims and thats why they're doing it, you would be ok with it?

Your logic makes no sense.

lol

have you ever been to venice beach

It would be consistent so it would be rational. In that scenario I'd tell fellow Muslims to pack their stuff and head back to their native countries as they're clearly unwanted and unwelcomed there. I do believe that there's not point in attempting to force states to be something they're not. They're either this or that or they're not and in the case that they claim to be this or that they will have to be consistent about it.

You went to great lengths by digging up one of my earlier posts in some other topic. I'm sure that took more than a minute. I myself wouldn't have enough energy or inclination to do so just to discredit someone, **** that.

France is much more socially conservative/reactionary than most people realize and this law's a manifestation of that attitude.

So it's better to completely discriminate than to partially discriminate?

It really isn't too hard to understand. The muslims migrating to France and other nations like to impose their beliefs and laws unto the nation to which they migrate to. See: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/134080/Now-Muslims-demand-full-Sharia-law

The French citizens and natives have every right to defend their way of life and not have to succumb to Islamic rule. You try way too hard to defend such an intolerant and violent religion. Is it not "incredibly nonsensical" to follow such religion, or to follow any religion for that matter...

I never said that. My arguments did not examine the morality of the action, it targeted its rationality. You seem unable of operating in the same domain that I operate in when I argue with you on something.

So what's rational about banning swearing or homosexuality? Like i said you are quick to condemn something against Muslims but are quick to defend anything done against non-Muslims.

You said that the problem is that France is doing this is wrong because they claim to be a tolerant culture. so if they claimed to be an intolerant culture then surely you would be defending this the same way you defended Russia banning being openly gay.

I wouldn't be defending the action from a moral point of view. I would instead accept it as what the French want and advise fellow Muslims there to leave seeing how they're not wanted anymore. I myself wouldn't stay somewhere where I'm officially unwanted and undesired. Nothing good would come from it and it will inevitably make my life a misery. So its a simple situation of figuring out what's best for me.

I believe my point should be getting through to you by now.

And that is exactly why I'm against Muslim emigration. If they're allowed to have their way they will drag this world back into the dark ages.

that's a load of shit

This is a good law IMO

Nope. If you allow masks for one group.....it works for every group. Use some logical thinking skills there some time....

this will cut the reports of ninjas on the loose that the police have to check out by almost 90%.

So many enemies of freedom in this topic

Meh. It's their call. If they feel the black ghost outfits Muslim women wear are a security risk and against their societal values, then all the power too them. There are already many clothing laws in most cournties (ie, you can't wear apparel that targets a group with hate speech), so I don't see this as some new breach of our freedoms.

I never understood why someones religious beliefs must be treated as sacred by everyone else. Who gives a **** what you believe? You're in France now, obey the law. Do you honestly think your all powerful creator of the universe cares what you are wearing? He sounds like a stalker.