Christians in the military

Before I start, let me say that I support our troops.

But, this is something that I've been wondering for a while now. I've seen many people who claim to be Christian, are involved with their church, wear the cross around their neck, ect. That's all well and good, but what I don't understand is that many such people don't find a problem with fighting in war in the military. Many have the view that it may even be gods will for them to fight against the enemy, and they will be blessed. However, I have reasoning to say that this may not be correct.

Although god does support some wars in the Bible, I don't believe that god would support the wars being fought today. For one, wars today aren't being fought for gods glory, but for reasons of man. For example, we are in Iraq and Afghanistan now to (supposedly) fight terrorists. A good reason, perhaps, but that doesn't bring glory to god. My point is if god doesn't support the wars mankind is fighting today, why should Christians, or any god-fearing person?

In fact, the Bible says that war will be done away with:

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more (Isaiah 2:4, KJV)

Some may argue that it is okay to defend your country against your enemies. But Jesus had this advice:

You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:43-50, NIV)

Now, I'm looking at this from a religious point of view, not political. The Christian religion is supposed to be about peacful teaching, and to love your neighbor as yourself. In addition, we have established that god does not support todays wars, and will even do away with war. So, my question to all is: Why do many religious people support something that god most likely does not? Maybe someone could show me how does support the wars being faught today.

There are three ways to look at war for the Christian: holy war, just war, and pacifism. I openly reject the idea of a holy war, at least this side of the cross. Pacifism is the goal but often times for that to be be enforced, justice must be carried out. Christianity's goal is to promote that which is good. Part of promoting that which is good is to remove that which is evil. It's one thing to openly attack another nation, and another thing to defend the rights or lives of a group of people.

As far as this idea in Scripture, very little is said. Romans 13:1-7 does state, however, how one is to respond to government. (Though, keep in mind that within the greater context of Scripture Christians are called to do God's will before the government's will.) "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

In verse 4 of that text it states, "he does not bear the sword for nothing." I do hold the position that if a Christian leader is in power then he too will bear that same sword.

As long as they aren't imposing their beliefs on others, I'm fine with it. ;)

There are three ways to look at war for the Christian: holy war, just war, and pacifism. I openly reject the idea of a holy war, at least this side of the cross. Pacifism is the goal but often times for that to be be enforced, justice must be carried out. Christianity's goal is to promote that which is good. Part of promoting that which is good is to remove that which is evil. It's one thing to openly attack another nation, and another thing to defend the rights or lives of a group of people.

As far as this idea in Scripture, very little is said. Romans 13:1-7 does state, however, how one is to respond to government. (Though, keep in mind that within the greater context of Scripture Christians are called to do God's will before the government's will.) "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor."

In verse 4 of that text it states, "he does not bear the sword for nothing." I do hold the position that if a Christian leader is in power then he too will bear that same sword.

mindstorm

Yes, I'm aware of the command to submit to the authorities. But, as you pointed out, god's will is first. So, just like if a parent asked you to do something that was against gods will, if the government authorities asks your service for something that god does not support, maybe then it is the time to disregard.

Think of it this way. What do you think god thinks when he looks down at the earth? Does he like what he sees? Does he like seeing all the violence, war, povery, ect.? Does he support his creation killing each other? I wouldn't think he would, and I'm pretty sure Jesus would never tell anyone to kill an enemy. So, in the respect, what is the good thing to promote?

Now, I'm looking at this from a religious point of view, not political. The Christian religion is supposed to be about peacful teaching, and to love your neighbor as yourself. In addition, we have established that god does not support todays wars, and will even do away with war. So, my question to all is: Why do many religious people support something that god most likely does not? Maybe someone could show me how does support the wars being faught today.

dog64

I hope you aren't insinuating that the bible is against violence. All you're doing is taking one teaching and then painting the entire dogma as though that teaching is the golden rule. Sure, there are preaceful parts, but that doesn't give you the right to paint the bible as though it's full of this "love thy neighbor" stuff.

By the same token, I can just as easily say that the bible is all about mass murder. See how ridiculous is sounds?

[QUOTE="dog64"]

Now, I'm looking at this from a religious point of view, not political. The Christian religion is supposed to be about peacful teaching, and to love your neighbor as yourself. In addition, we have established that god does not support todays wars, and will even do away with war. So, my question to all is: Why do many religious people support something that god most likely does not? Maybe someone could show me how does support the wars being faught today.

dracula_16

I hope you aren't insinuating that the bible is against violence. All you're doing is taking one teaching and then painting the entire dogma as though that teaching is the golden rule. Sure, there are preaceful parts, but that doesn't give you the right to paint the bible as though it's full of this "love thy neighbor" stuff.

By the same token, I can just as easily say that the bible is all about mass murder. See how ridiculous is sounds?

I think the Bible teaches that god did not create humans to be violent. The Bible speaks of all the violence in the world, but it doesn't ever say that that's the way it should be. When god first created the earth and put Adam and Eve in it, everything was peacful. It wasn't until they sinned, when all the badness started.

Yes, I'm aware of the command to submit to the authorities. But, as you pointed out, god's will is first. So, just like if a parent asked you to do something that was against gods will, if the government authorities asks your service for something that god does not support, maybe then it is the time to disregard.

Think of it this way. What do you think god thinks when he looks down at the earth? Does he like what he sees? Does he like seeing all the violence, war, povery, ect.? Does he support his creation killing each other? I wouldn't think he would, and I'm pretty sure Jesus would never tell anyone to kill an enemy. So, in the respect, what is the good thing to promote?

dog64

[QUOTE="dog64"]

Now, I'm looking at this from a religious point of view, not political. The Christian religion is supposed to be about peacful teaching, and to love your neighbor as yourself. In addition, we have established that god does not support todays wars, and will even do away with war. So, my question to all is: Why do many religious people support something that god most likely does not? Maybe someone could show me how does support the wars being faught today.

dracula_16

I hope you aren't insinuating that the bible is against violence. All you're doing is taking one teaching and then painting the entire dogma as though that teaching is the golden rule. Sure, there are preaceful parts, but that doesn't give you the right to paint the bible as though it's full of this "love thy neighbor" stuff.

By the same token, I can just as easily say that the bible is all about mass murder. See how ridiculous is sounds?

While I get your point, I do not think it's against the will of God to go into the military. Granted, I'm assuming the military itself is not all bad. I can't imagine it would be the most Christian thing to do to become a part of Hitler's SS. And no, I do not think God likes what is going on any more than we do. This world is a fallen creation and our hope is for the future reign of Christ when there will be no more innocent bloodshed.

mindstorm

Well, I guess it's up to the individual to decide. You know when you join the military that you may be deployed to fight in combat in a war. Right now we (speaking for the U.S.) are involved in two wars. So if you were to join right now, there's a very high chance that you would be deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan (it might vary on what branch you join, but most branches would probably go there). So I guess what you have to decide is if the Iraq and Afghan wars are just or not. If you believe that they are not just, and would not defend gods glory, then you would not support them by joining.

Mindstorm, as a Christian, would you fight in the Iraq or Afghan wars?

I disagree. Christians are called to "love thy neighbor." What you are referencing is God's wrath against that which is evil. He has every right to completely destroy this fallen creation but out of love sends us salvation and restoration through His Son.

mindstorm

So I was just imagining things when I read that Moses murdered people?

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

While I get your point, I do not think it's against the will of God to go into the military. Granted, I'm assuming the military itself is not all bad. I can't imagine it would be the most Christian thing to do to become a part of Hitler's SS. And no, I do not think God likes what is going on any more than we do. This world is a fallen creation and our hope is for the future reign of Christ when there will be no more innocent bloodshed.

dog64

Well, I guess it's up to the individual to decide. You know when you join the military that you may be deployed to fight in combat in a war. Right now we (speaking for the U.S.) are involved in two wars. So if you were to join right now, there's a very high chance that you would be deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan (it might vary on what branch you join, but most branches would probably go there). So I guess what you have to decide is if the Iraq and Afghan wars are just or not. If you believe that they are not just, and would not defend gods glory, then you would not support them by joining.

Mindstorm, as a Christian, would you fight in the Iraq or Afghan wars?

I agree completely with what I pointed out in your text.

As far as your question, it's something that I haven't thought much about since I rarely think about "what if's". The military is simply something I have not contemplated joining for more than a passing moment. However, I would go if I were called. Keep in mind that I am not saying I agree with everything that has gone on. I do believe good can still be accomplished though.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

I disagree. Christians are called to "love thy neighbor." What you are referencing is God's wrath against that which is evil. He has every right to completely destroy this fallen creation but out of love sends us salvation and restoration through His Son.

dracula_16

So I was just imagining things when I read that Moses murdered people?

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

I disagree. Christians are called to "love thy neighbor." What you are referencing is God's wrath against that which is evil. He has every right to completely destroy this fallen creation but out of love sends us salvation and restoration through His Son.

dracula_16

So I was just imagining things when I read that Moses murdered people?

It... seems to me that that isn't exactly an instruction from Jesus for all to follow, no?

[QUOTE="dog64"]

[QUOTE="mindstorm"]

While I get your point, I do not think it's against the will of God to go into the military. Granted, I'm assuming the military itself is not all bad. I can't imagine it would be the most Christian thing to do to become a part of Hitler's SS. And no, I do not think God likes what is going on any more than we do. This world is a fallen creation and our hope is for the future reign of Christ when there will be no more innocent bloodshed.

mindstorm

Well, I guess it's up to the individual to decide. You know when you join the military that you may be deployed to fight in combat in a war. Right now we (speaking for the U.S.) are involved in two wars. So if you were to join right now, there's a very high chance that you would be deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan (it might vary on what branch you join, but most branches would probably go there). So I guess what you have to decide is if the Iraq and Afghan wars are just or not. If you believe that they are not just, and would not defend gods glory, then you would not support them by joining.

Mindstorm, as a Christian, would you fight in the Iraq or Afghan wars?

I agree completely with what I pointed out in your text.

As far as your question, it's something that I haven't thought much about since I rarely think about "what if's". The military is simply something I have not contemplated joining for more than a passing moment. However, I would go if I were called. Keep in mind that I am not saying I agree with everything that has gone on. I do believe good can still be accomplished though.

I see. One more point I'll bring out though. We all have the right to decide on everything, but that doesn't mean that what we decided was the right way. There has to be a right way and wrong way, correct? One of the reasons why I'm not religious is because I don't know what's right. Everyone has so many different opinions on things, it's impossible to decide what is right and what may be wrong.

I see. One more point I'll bring out though. We all have the right to decide on everything, but that doesn't mean that what we decided was the right way. There has to be a right way and wrong way, correct? One of the reasons why I'm not religious is because I don't know what's right. Everyone has so many different opinions on things, it's impossible to decide what is right and what may be wrong.

dog64

Well, I think it's a rare situation that the truth of a moral argument cannot be known. Between Scripture, our conscious (which isn't perfect but still helps), and the Holy Spirit, and simple logic, I do think most rights and wrongs can be figured out. I say this with the assumption that we do not seek self-interest over the interest of others and God, we put away our biases, and we truly wish to know what the truth is even if it makes us feel uncomfortable or be required to give up something in the process.

There are many wise sayings within Scripture even for anyone such as Romans 2:17-24 as an example, "Now you, if you call yourself a Jew [you could substitute 'religious person' and it'll work]; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written: 'God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles [aka nonbelievers] because of you.'"

Enemies of my country? Kill 'em all, let God sort them out.

Enemies of my country? Kill 'em all, let God sort them out.

rjxtian

Because as is expectable, not all Christian teachings can be applied nowadays no matter how some Christians like to emphasise the absolutely diachronic nature of scripture.