College is nothing but a waste of time

At least according to Dale J. Stephens as I just read on CNN.com

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/06/03/stephens.college/index.html?npt=NP1

Your thoughts on the subject?

The first couple of years are if you are just taking general education classes but after that it isn't a waste. The people that make tons of money without a college degree are few and far between.

At least according to Dale J. Stephens as I just read on CNN.com

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/06/03/stephens.college/index.html?npt=NP1

Your thoughts on the subject?

KeitekeTokage

That dude wrote, "We think of college as a stepping-stone to success rather than a means to gain knowledge.".

Uh...yeah. We sort of SHOULD think of college that way. Information has never been more free than it is now, there is never before been more of an ability to simply GAIN KNOWLEDGE simply by doing independent research. It's generally flat-out STUPID to go to college just to "gain knowledge" since it's increasingly easier to learn that **** on your own without having to go to college. Yes, you generally go to college in the hopes of getting a better job, not in order to LEARN.

While I do agree that college is a waste of time for many people, this dude is also getting paid an assload of money to not go to college. So it's sort of easy for him to say that college is a waste of time, given his situation. Most people, however, are NOT in any kind of comparable situation. So I don't see his opinion being very valuable to many people.

Couldn't agree more. General education is a regurgitation of what you just did in high school. And your major doesn't mean much in this market. Pretty sad Spellingiscool

Couldn't agree more. General education is a regurgitation of what you just did in high school. And your major doesn't mean much in this market. Pretty sad Spellingiscool

Take two people of equal competence. Who's more likely to get the job? The one who ONLY has competence, or the one who has competence along with degrees to back it up?

I think he has some valid criticisms of the college experience, although I would not exactly go as far as to call it a "waste of time". Then again, perhaps he was just using that line as an attention-grabber, instead of as an actual representation of what he thinks. The need for a snappy headline that gets people's attention and gets them to read on does often tend to necessitate a more black-and-white view that does not easily lend itself to reasoned commentary.

At any rate, I think the fatal flaw in what he says is that it's still the case that job postings in the technical fields are basically unanimous in requiring at least a bachelor's degree. The way in which he speaks makes me get the sense that his chosen career path is not one in the hard sciences, which is fine, of course, but it may very well bias his view towards college if he's in a field that genuinely doesn't require a college degree to get a job and be successful. I think that his point is well-taken that one should not simply automatically go to college because, well, that's what people do and that's how people get jobs, but on the other hand I think the structured format of college has very strong upsides in many ways, and I think that most reasonable people who go through college and actually take it seriously will almost certainly come out richer and more well-rounded as a human being, if not wealthier as well.

[QUOTE="Spellingiscool"]Couldn't agree more. General education is a regurgitation of what you just did in high school. And your major doesn't mean much in this market. Pretty sad MrGeezer

Take two people of equal competence. Who's more likely to get the job? The one who ONLY has competence, or the one who has competence along with degrees to back it up?

I agree 100%, especially with this.

"because it rewards conformity rather than independence, competition rather than collaboration, regurgitation rather than learning and theory rather than application. Our creativity, innovation and curiosity are schooled out of us."

This is exactly what happened at community college, and a private art school. Teacher: "Ok so use your creativeness and create herp and derp." Me: "Well thats kind of vague but whatever." Teacher: "Y U NO DRAW WHAT I TELL YOU!" Me: "Uhhhh...I did." I was also failed because I didn't put a border...on one picture...that did absolutely nothing. He always told us to use as much of the paper as we can, but the kid who drew stick figures gets credit in a class teaching proportion drawing?

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="Spellingiscool"]Couldn't agree more. General education is a regurgitation of what you just did in high school. And your major doesn't mean much in this market. Pretty sad Spellingiscool

Take two people of equal competence. Who's more likely to get the job? The one who ONLY has competence, or the one who has competence along with degrees to back it up?

Well then, it's NOT a waste of time and money, so long as the REASON why you're going to college is to potentially (or...likely) get a better job.

But college probably IS a waste of time/money if the REASON you're doing it is to learn. If the whole point for you is to learn, then go ahead and avoid college.

Nah how else was I suppose to get laid at this age? Hahaha woo!Candy-Star

Be like D*******g Steve and go to high school parties even though you're overage.

Grab 100 bucks and walk down to your local prostitue street

Theres another option but the law and people don't like it too much :P

Sounds like BS to me. Good luck finding a good job without college.

College is whatever you make it... If you go to get a better job, I would hardly call it a waste of time.

I think he has some valid criticisms of the college experience, although I would not exactly go as far as to call it a "waste of time". Then again, perhaps he was just using that line as an attention-grabber, instead of as an actual representation of what he thinks. The need for a snappy headline that gets people's attention and gets them to read on does often tend to necessitate a more black-and-white view that does not easily lend itself to reasoned commentary.

At any rate, I think the fatal flaw in what he says is that it's still the case that job postings in the technical fields are basically unanimous in requiring at least a bachelor's degree. The way in which he speaks makes me get the sense that his chosen career path is not one in the hard sciences, which is fine, of course, but it may very well bias his view towards college if he's in a field that genuinely doesn't require a college degree to get a job and be successful. I think that his point is well-taken that one should not simply automatically go to college because, well, that's what people do and that's how people get jobs, but on the other hand I think the structured format of college has very strong upsides in many ways, and I think that most reasonable people who go through college and actually take it seriously will almost certainly come out richer and more well-rounded as a human being, if not wealthier as well.

GabuEx

What happened to the good old days when you didn't have to be educated to be successful. I'm pretty sure college is just designed to make an elite ruling society out of the people who go, and the people who don't are the subjects to the ruling of the said society. At least that's what it is in my paranoid, un-trust worthy mind.

Yup.

Wow okay so point me in the direction of a good paying job without a degree...

we all cannot be rush limbaugh...

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I think he has some valid criticisms of the college experience, although I would not exactly go as far as to call it a "waste of time". Then again, perhaps he was just using that line as an attention-grabber, instead of as an actual representation of what he thinks. The need for a snappy headline that gets people's attention and gets them to read on does often tend to necessitate a more black-and-white view that does not easily lend itself to reasoned commentary.

At any rate, I think the fatal flaw in what he says is that it's still the case that job postings in the technical fields are basically unanimous in requiring at least a bachelor's degree. The way in which he speaks makes me get the sense that his chosen career path is not one in the hard sciences, which is fine, of course, but it may very well bias his view towards college if he's in a field that genuinely doesn't require a college degree to get a job and be successful. I think that his point is well-taken that one should not simply automatically go to college because, well, that's what people do and that's how people get jobs, but on the other hand I think the structured format of college has very strong upsides in many ways, and I think that most reasonable people who go through college and actually take it seriously will almost certainly come out richer and more well-rounded as a human being, if not wealthier as well.

MetalGear_Ninty

In todays society thats the case, There have been some very influential Scientists in the past who never had a formal higher education. Either way in Science, Engineering etc. A Degree is invaluable not only to getting a job in such fields but actually understanding the work required.

In Australia its starting to feel like you can't do anything without a degree. Or atleast some sort of certificate saying you are qualified.

If you want a stable career you need a college degree so it is not a waste. You can't support a family of 4 when you work as a cahier at McDonalds hopeing to one day become assistant manager of the fryalator.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I think he has some valid criticisms of the college experience, although I would not exactly go as far as to call it a "waste of time". Then again, perhaps he was just using that line as an attention-grabber, instead of as an actual representation of what he thinks. The need for a snappy headline that gets people's attention and gets them to read on does often tend to necessitate a more black-and-white view that does not easily lend itself to reasoned commentary.

At any rate, I think the fatal flaw in what he says is that it's still the case that job postings in the technical fields are basically unanimous in requiring at least a bachelor's degree. The way in which he speaks makes me get the sense that his chosen career path is not one in the hard sciences, which is fine, of course, but it may very well bias his view towards college if he's in a field that genuinely doesn't require a college degree to get a job and be successful. I think that his point is well-taken that one should not simply automatically go to college because, well, that's what people do and that's how people get jobs, but on the other hand I think the structured format of college has very strong upsides in many ways, and I think that most reasonable people who go through college and actually take it seriously will almost certainly come out richer and more well-rounded as a human being, if not wealthier as well.

mattisgod01

In todays society thats the case, There have been some very influential Scientists in the past who never had a formal higher education. Either way in Science, Engineering etc. A Degree is invaluable not only to getting a job in such fields but actually understanding the work required.

In Australia its starting to feel like you can't do anything without a degree. Or atleast some sort of certificate saying you are qualified.

If you want a stable career you need a college degree so it is not a waste. You can't support a family of 4 when you work as a cahier at McDonalds hopeing to one day become assistant manager of the fryalator.

Dawq902

No.

College isnt necessarily vocational training. It's higher education that helps prepare your mind for future career training.

When you're doing GE, college can seem like a waste. But once you complete all your GE, it gets alot more interesting and fun.

the kid that wrote that article is 19, if he started college the same time everyone else does (about 18) then what the hell does he know about college? he's barely gotten out of his general education classes, IF that. i agree that the general education classes are a waste of time, they're no different than my high school classes other than there's hardly any homework assignments and there's only 3 or 4 tests over the whole semester and those might be the only grades.

easy for him to say that college is nothing but a waste of time since he's getting paid to not go...however the rest of us who want to have a chance at a decent job have to go to college.

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]

At least according to Dale J. Stephens as I just read on CNN.com

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/06/03/stephens.college/index.html?npt=NP1

Your thoughts on the subject?

MrGeezer

That dude wrote, "We think of college as a stepping-stone to success rather than a means to gain knowledge.".

Uh...yeah. We sort of SHOULD think of college that way. Information has never been more free than it is now, there is never before been more of an ability to simply GAIN KNOWLEDGE simply by doing independent research.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="GabuEx"]

I think he has some valid criticisms of the college experience, although I would not exactly go as far as to call it a "waste of time". Then again, perhaps he was just using that line as an attention-grabber, instead of as an actual representation of what he thinks. The need for a snappy headline that gets people's attention and gets them to read on does often tend to necessitate a more black-and-white view that does not easily lend itself to reasoned commentary.

At any rate, I think the fatal flaw in what he says is that it's still the case that job postings in the technical fields are basically unanimous in requiring at least a bachelor's degree. The way in which he speaks makes me get the sense that his chosen career path is not one in the hard sciences, which is fine, of course, but it may very well bias his view towards college if he's in a field that genuinely doesn't require a college degree to get a job and be successful. I think that his point is well-taken that one should not simply automatically go to college because, well, that's what people do and that's how people get jobs, but on the other hand I think the structured format of college has very strong upsides in many ways, and I think that most reasonable people who go through college and actually take it seriously will almost certainly come out richer and more well-rounded as a human being, if not wealthier as well.

mattisgod01

In todays society thats the case, There have been some very influential Scientists in the past who never had a formal higher education. Either way in Science, Engineering etc. A Degree is invaluable not only to getting a job in such fields but actually understanding the work required.

In Australia its starting to feel like you can't do anything without a degree. Or atleast some sort of certificate saying you are qualified.

That's the thing, around the 19th and 20th century it was possible to do so because science was so young and the larger questions about the universe (speaking from a physics stand point here) were more open to be discovered. I'm talking about getting lucky and spotting an object that turned out to be a large asteroid or perhaps neptune or uranus to Einsteins discovery relativity. But today, you simply can not do it with science, a degree (a masters even to really get into work) is a must, and I'm damn well glad it is. Call me a conformist, but I feel like it's a bit arrogant to shove aside our education system and question its usefullness. It's going to be a cold hard taste of reality for this kid when he runs into a higher up he wants to do business with and they ask him of his college education which of course he hasn't had. Interesting how we can't quite figure out why America's education is slipping and yet we run into articles like this. Kids don't think they need to go to school anymore because they can do better without requiring any more education.

I guess it depends on your major and the college you attend.

Totally disagree. Independent reading on the internet or whatever can gain information, which is a whole different beast than knowledge.xaos

Well, whether you want to do anything with that information is up to you. If you don't want to take it any farther than just acquiring facts, then you're probably going to waste a college education as well.

[QUOTE="xaos"]Totally disagree. Independent reading on the internet or whatever can gain information, which is a whole different beast than knowledge.MrGeezer

Well, whether you want to do anything with that information is up to you. If you don't want to take it any farther than just acquiring facts, then you're probably going to waste a college education as well.

I'd say that depends entirely on what you're trying to study.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="xaos"]Totally disagree. Independent reading on the internet or whatever can gain information, which is a whole different beast than knowledge.KeitekeTokage

Well, whether you want to do anything with that information is up to you. If you don't want to take it any farther than just acquiring facts, then you're probably going to waste a college education as well.

Dale is simply saying in other words: 'certificates' are overrated.

I actually agree with him, if someone is smart then college is nothing more then a restriction on the skills and progression of that individual. I appload these forms of self-education as it is likely to yield better results for the serious students out there.

On a personal note, I go to college purely for fun if, I wanted to be super serious about my career then i would love oppertunities like these.

pfft who needs college anyways. im already a successful actor living in a big mansion with lots of money. I won and was nominated for 3 academy awards 2 of them being for best actor and the other one for best supporting. I never took acting lessons in my life. All i did was go to an audition and my carrer took off from there. Man life is so easy.

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

Well, whether you want to do anything with that information is up to you. If you don't want to take it any farther than just acquiring facts, then you're probably going to waste a college education as well.

rastotm

Dale is simply saying in other words: 'certificates' are overrated.

I actually agree with him, if someone is smart then college is nothing more then a restriction on the skills and progression of that individual. I appload these forms of self-education as it is likely to yield better results for the serious students out there.

On a personal note, I go to college purely for fun if, I wanted to be super serious about my career then i would love oppertunities like these.

i'm not talking about partying or getting a job at a coffee store, i mean actually working. learning off the internet isn't going to get you anywhere. unless perhaps if all you want is facts off wikipedia. for many majors you actually need to DO stuff, and that requires doing it under professional supervision if you want to do it properly.

if you are an engineering major, you're going to have to learn software and hardware associated with your major. you don't become a mechanical engineer without knowing how to turn to design stuff in autocad and then actually use ten thousand dollar machinery to manufacture it. even if somehow you have the software and hardware, you can't learn properly without an expert guiding you the way through or at least present to correct your mistakes/answer your questions or stop you from cutting your arm off. on top of that, engineering students are required to work in teams, so being totally self-sufficient isn't useful if you can't be productive in a team.

art majors look at actual paintings, not pictures thereof in pixels. it's not the same thing.

and that's two examples. architecture, business, science and many other fields require you to do something with people or equipment that aren't readily available, rather than learn facts from a book. reading recipes doesn't make you a good chef. if you want to learn without doing or seeing anything for yourself, you are consuming information, not gaining knowledge.

This article sounds real familiar... Oh right!

[QUOTE="rastotm"]

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"] This. Let's give you 10 years to research biology on the internet rather than the 4 for a college undergrad just to give you a head start. Now try attempting to work in the field and telling them you did 10 years of internet research. Let me know how that goes.Kh1ndjal

Dale is simply saying in other words: 'certificates' are overrated.

I actually agree with him, if someone is smart then college is nothing more then a restriction on the skills and progression of that individual. I appload these forms of self-education as it is likely to yield better results for the serious students out there.

On a personal note, I go to college purely for fun if, I wanted to be super serious about my career then i would love oppertunities like these.

i'm not talking about partying or getting a job at a coffee store, i mean actually working. learning off the internet isn't going to get you anywhere. unless perhaps if all you want is facts off wikipedia. for many majors you actually need to DO stuff, and that requires doing it under professional supervision if you want to do it properly.

if you are an engineering major, you're going to have to learn software and hardware associated with your major. you don't become a mechanical engineer without knowing how to turn to design stuff in autocad and then actually use ten thousand dollar machinery to manufacture it. even if somehow you have the software and hardware, you can't learn properly without an expert guiding you the way through or at least present to correct your mistakes/answer your questions or stop you from cutting your arm off. on top of that, engineering students are required to work in teams, so being totally self-sufficient isn't useful if you can't be productive in a team.

art majors look at actual paintings, not pictures thereof in pixels. it's not the same thing.

and that's two examples. architecture, business, science and many other fields require you to do something with people or equipment that aren't readily available, rather than learn facts from a book. reading recipes doesn't make you a good chef. if you want to learn without doing or seeing anything for yourself, you are consuming information, not gaining knowledge.

The most heared complaint about universities is that they don't offer enough practical experience which was pretty much the underlying complaint in the article.

[QUOTE="Kh1ndjal"]

[QUOTE="rastotm"]

Dale is simply saying in other words: 'certificates' are overrated.

I actually agree with him, if someone is smart then college is nothing more then a restriction on the skills and progression of that individual. I appload these forms of self-education as it is likely to yield better results for the serious students out there.

On a personal note, I go to college purely for fun if, I wanted to be super serious about my career then i would love oppertunities like these.

rastotm

i'm not talking about partying or getting a job at a coffee store, i mean actually working. learning off the internet isn't going to get you anywhere. unless perhaps if all you want is facts off wikipedia. for many majors you actually need to DO stuff, and that requires doing it under professional supervision if you want to do it properly.

if you are an engineering major, you're going to have to learn software and hardware associated with your major. you don't become a mechanical engineer without knowing how to turn to design stuff in autocad and then actually use ten thousand dollar machinery to manufacture it. even if somehow you have the software and hardware, you can't learn properly without an expert guiding you the way through or at least present to correct your mistakes/answer your questions or stop you from cutting your arm off. on top of that, engineering students are required to work in teams, so being totally self-sufficient isn't useful if you can't be productive in a team.

art majors look at actual paintings, not pictures thereof in pixels. it's not the same thing.

and that's two examples. architecture, business, science and many other fields require you to do something with people or equipment that aren't readily available, rather than learn facts from a book. reading recipes doesn't make you a good chef. if you want to learn without doing or seeing anything for yourself, you are consuming information, not gaining knowledge.

The most heared complaint about universities is that they don't offer enough practical experience which was pretty much the underlying complaint in the article.

you guys are missing a fundamental part of college. DOING things.

i'm not talking about partying or getting a job at a coffee store, i mean actually working. learning off the internet isn't going to get you anywhere. unless perhaps if all you want is facts off wikipedia. for many majors you actually need to DO stuff, and that requires doing it under professional supervision if you want to do it properly.

if you are an engineering major, you're going to have to learn software and hardware associated with your major. you don't become a mechanical engineer without knowing how to turn to design stuff in autocad and then actually use ten thousand dollar machinery to manufacture it. even if somehow you have the software and hardware, you can't learn properly without an expert guiding you the way through or at least present to correct your mistakes/answer your questions or stop you from cutting your arm off. on top of that, engineering students are required to work in teams, so being totally self-sufficient isn't useful if you can't be productive in a team.

art majors look at actual paintings, not pictures thereof in pixels. it's not the same thing.

and that's two examples. architecture, business, science and many other fields require you to do something with people or equipment that aren't readily available, rather than learn facts from a book. reading recipes doesn't make you a good chef. if you want to learn without doing or seeing anything for yourself, you are consuming information, not gaining knowledge.

Kh1ndjal

One doesn't need to be an art major to go to a ****ing museum. Sure, reading up on drawing or photography is no substitute for actual practice, but one doesn't exactly need an art degree to practice that stuff.

Sure...for SOME stuff it is imperative to use the school's resources. Like, most self-interested people aren't going to have access to a chemistry lab or the university's high-end telescope. But that just reinforces the idea that college ISN'T pointless. Either way, the vast majority of people going through college are sort of expecting to get a job. And...good luck being just as desireable of a candidate for employment WITHOUT having a degree and formal training.

[QUOTE="Kh1ndjal"]you guys are missing a fundamental part of college. DOING things.

i'm not talking about partying or getting a job at a coffee store, i mean actually working. learning off the internet isn't going to get you anywhere. unless perhaps if all you want is facts off wikipedia. for many majors you actually need to DO stuff, and that requires doing it under professional supervision if you want to do it properly.

if you are an engineering major, you're going to have to learn software and hardware associated with your major. you don't become a mechanical engineer without knowing how to turn to design stuff in autocad and then actually use ten thousand dollar machinery to manufacture it. even if somehow you have the software and hardware, you can't learn properly without an expert guiding you the way through or at least present to correct your mistakes/answer your questions or stop you from cutting your arm off. on top of that, engineering students are required to work in teams, so being totally self-sufficient isn't useful if you can't be productive in a team.

art majors look at actual paintings, not pictures thereof in pixels. it's not the same thing.

and that's two examples. architecture, business, science and many other fields require you to do something with people or equipment that aren't readily available, rather than learn facts from a book. reading recipes doesn't make you a good chef. if you want to learn without doing or seeing anything for yourself, you are consuming information, not gaining knowledge.

MrGeezer

One doesn't need to be an art major to go to a ****ing museum. Sure, reading up on drawing or photography is no substitute for actual practice, but one doesn't exactly need an art degree to practice that stuff.

Sure...for SOME stuff it is imperative to use the school's resources. Like, most self-interested people aren't going to have access to a chemistry lab or the university's high-end telescope. But that just reinforces the idea that college ISN'T pointless. Either way, the vast majority of people going through college are sort of expecting to get a job. And...good luck being just as desireable of a candidate for employment WITHOUT having a degree and formal training.

College just doesn't give direct knowledge in your major.. It helps you cultivate independent studies as well as writing and research.. Just having a degree, doesn't matter what.. Sets you above a bar because it illustrates you at least have some knowledge in research, writing, speeches etc etc before you even consider the major.

Unless you are actually going to help society by being a dotor, lawyer, or engineer, by all means go. But if not, it pretty much is. College is a natural habitat for some of the worlds biggest a**holes like spoiled rich kids.