Determinism or free will?

Genetics and our environment determine our ability and standards, but we choose what to do with those abilities and standards. Media_geek20

Yes, I agree. I think it's rather defeatist to say that genetics an environment determine what we do before we do it. What that would essentially mean is that we're on a path, and there's nothing we can do to change it. 

well, with an omniscient and omnipotent god, free will is impossible. These assumptions(that god is all seeing and all powerful) are at the heart of many religions. For instance, if god can see and know all things, than he knows exactly what I will be doing at some specified time in the future. If it is or can be known, then how can we have the free will to do it ourselves? One possible conclusion is that we don't have free will. But if that's the case, then how is a concept of a personal heaven or hell fair if we do not get to choose our own actions? Another possible conclusion is that there is no omniscient or omnipotent god, but that violates the assumptions of nearly every religion in the world. The question of free will is one of the many gaping holes in tradtional Christian dogma, in my opinion.ravensfan5252

I'm talking about free will from more of a secular perspective. Many scientists believe free will is an illusion. 

I haven't totally made up my mind one way or the other, but I tend to lean toward determinism.

The main reason is that as far as I know, everything in the universe abides by a cause and effect relationship.  A cause creates an effect, which in turn because a cause of another effect, ect.  

To me, it would seem that free will would violate this principle.  By claiming that people have free will, it seems that you are basically saying that man is able to somehow create a first cause.  After all, in order to have at least some sembalence of free will, your choices have to be at least partially free from the affect of some previous event.

I'm certainly no expert on causality, so I may very well be missing something.  However, this is what my current belief is. 

I'm partial to determinism, I believe that everything that will happen and already happened has already happened, if that makes sense. I think outcome and events are already predetermined. the universe is too perfect for it not to be this way.KrayzieJ

To me, it would seem that free will would violate this principle. By claiming that people have free will, it seems that you are basically saying that man is able to somehow create a first cause. After all, in order to have at least some sembalence of free will, your choices have to be at least partially free from the affect of some previous event.Decessus

If this were true, that first cause wouldn't (or couldn't possibly) be influenced by a prior cause/effect situation, therefore there has been at least one act of free will. When you consider something like the Butterfly Effect, some event or some person on the other side of the world could make a decision that has an impact of varying degrees on your life. Assuming that's true, not everyone has that impact on someone else, so there are several acts by every person who has ever lived on this Earth that are determined and some that are free of it. 

...I personally like Daniel Dennet's idea that genetics and environment do effect or choices, but we have free will on what to actually do.Rhazakna

See, now I cannot wrap my mind around that concept. I mean, your decisions have to be based on SOMETHING, right? Every time I see that argument (usually from religious people, but I digress), I simply cannot comprehend what they even mean.

Now, I know this is a gross oversimplification, but try holding onto a hot pan. Well, you're not going to do that obviously, but do you think you could if you wanted to? No, because your nervous system will make you let go before the pain message even gets to your brain.

I haven't totally made up my mind one way or the other, but I tend to lean toward determinism.

The main reason is that as far as I know, everything in the universe abides by a cause and effect relationship. A cause creates an effect, which in turn because a cause of another effect, ect.

To me, it would seem that free will would violate this principle. By claiming that people have free will, it seems that you are basically saying that man is able to somehow create a first cause. After all, in order to have at least some sembalence of free will, your choices have to be at least partially free from the affect of some previous event.

I'm certainly no expert on causality, so I may very well be missing something. However, this is what my current belief is.

Decessus

All events are not caused by cause and effect. Look up indeterminism. And cause and effect does not refute free will. There can be a cause, and the effect can be an effect of free will.

Seriously, read Danial Dennet, people. 

All events are not caused by cause and effect.

Rhazakna

Name one, and don't try using something that hardly anything is known about such as the Big Bang either.

Look up indeterminism. And cause and effect does not refute free will. There can be a cause, and the effect can be an effect of free will.

Rhazakna

Indeterminism is just a limitation of measurement.  Also, you cannot measure something without having an effect on the thing you are measuring.  Measure the intensity of a light, and some of the photons are being absorbed by the measuring device, etc.

[QUOTE="Rhazakna"]

All events are not caused by cause and effect.

SpaceMoose

Name one, and don't try using something that hardly anything is known about such as the Big Bang either.

Look up indeterminism. And cause and effect does not refute free will. There can be a cause, and the effect can be an effect of free will.

Rhazakna

Indeterminism is just a limitation of measurement. Also, you cannot measure something without having an effect on the thing you are measuring. Measure the intensity of a light, and some of the photons are being absorbed by the measuring device, etc.

Perhaps. Through more research of free will, I've seen the term in a different light. Free will is the idea that the self can contradict the self, not that you have freedom of action. I believe the creation of self is a deterministic process/ I still don't think think that environment and genetics determine what you do, but heavily influence. Elbow Room FTW.

There was a discussion about this last week. Alas I believe at the end of the day people are responsible for their own actions. People's outcomes are more than the sum of their traits and experiences.Buffalo_Soulja

lol, what a coincidence, I'm reading about Schrodinger's cat right now. 

There was a discussion about this last week. Alas I believe at the end of the day people are responsible for their own actions. People's outcomes are more than the sum of their traits and experiences.Buffalo_Soulja

On a side note, why do you say alas people are resbonsible for their actions? I prefer that to not being able to take credit for any good thing I do. 

From my experience, at least I have free will. It is my belief that we start off on a path, and that we have to utilize our inherent free will to decide whether or not to stay on it. I know I've broken off of my path, I can't speak for everyone else.

And while it could have been decided that I would be motivated to break off of that path, to have a motive, one must have free will. To have a motive, one must have self-interest, and to have self-interest, one must be free to be interested in theirselves. If we were not free to be interested in ourselves, then we would not make conscious decisions.
crucifine

So how is that LSD working out for you? 

[QUOTE="Media_geek20"]Genetics and our environment determine our ability and standards, but we choose what to do with those abilities and standards. Rhazakna

Yes, I agree. I think it's rather defeatist to say that genetics an environment determine what we do before we do it. What that would essentially mean is that we're on a path, and there's nothing we can do to change it.

You have misinterpretted my post greatly. Our standards, environment, genetics, etc., determine our abilities and potential. As humans, though, we choose how to use that potential and our abilities. We don't have a predetermined path, but we do have limits.  

[QUOTE="Rhazakna"]

[QUOTE="Media_geek20"]Genetics and our environment determine our ability and standards, but we choose what to do with those abilities and standards. Media_geek20

Yes, I agree. I think it's rather defeatist to say that genetics an environment determine what we do before we do it. What that would essentially mean is that we're on a path, and there's nothing we can do to change it.

You have misinterpretted my post greatly. Our standards, environment, genetics, etc., determine our abilities and potential. As humans, though, we choose how to use that potential and our abilities. We don't have a predetermined path, but we do have limits.

That's actually exactly what I was agreeing with :? Seems you misinterpretted my post.

I now think we have freedom of action and freedom of (limited) choice rather than free will. It seems I was ignorant about the term. 

Genetics and environment determine our limits, but it is up to us how to use those limits.

For example, Genetics won't let me fly, and the environment has the sky too cold to let me fly. So, I drive.

You have misinterpretted my post greatly. Our standards, environment, genetics, etc., determine our abilities and potential. As humans, though, we choose how to use that potential and our abilities.

Media_geek20

But in my view, those very "choices" are, in fact, predetermined by the structure of your brain and all of the events in your life which caused it to get to that state.

[QUOTE="Media_geek20"]

You have misinterpretted my post greatly. Our standards, environment, genetics, etc., determine our abilities and potential. As humans, though, we choose how to use that potential and our abilities.

SpaceMoose

But in my view, those very "choices" are, in fact, predetermined by the structure of your brain and all of the events in your life which caused it to get to that state.

You're forgetting the structure of your brain is you.
quiglythegreat

I am? 

[QUOTE="crucifine"]From my experience, at least I have free will. It is my belief that we start off on a path, and that we have to utilize our inherent free will to decide whether or not to stay on it. I know I've broken off of my path, I can't speak for everyone else.

And while it could have been decided that I would be motivated to break off of that path, to have a motive, one must have free will. To have a motive, one must have self-interest, and to have self-interest, one must be free to be interested in theirselves. If we were not free to be interested in ourselves, then we would not make conscious decisions.
SpaceMoose

So how is that LSD working out for you? 

Quite well, actually. I came up with that particular reasoning in the middle of a philosophy lecture, because I wanted to prove the determinists wrong on my own. I welcome criticism of my argument, though.

crucifine

My biggest criticism of it would be that it hardly makes sense. :P

Hence the LSD comment. 

[QUOTE="crucifine"]Quite well, actually. I came up with that particular reasoning in the middle of a philosophy lecture, because I wanted to prove the determinists wrong on my own. I welcome criticism of my argument, though.

SpaceMoose

My biggest criticism of it would be that it hardly makes sense. :P

Hence the LSD comment. 

well, with an omniscient and omnipotent god, free will is impossible. These assumptions(that god is all seeing and all powerful) are at the heart of many religions. For instance, if god can see and know all things, than he knows exactly what I will be doing at some specified time in the future. If it is or can be known, then how can we have the free will to do it ourselves? One possible conclusion is that we don't have free will. But if that's the case, then how is a concept of a personal heaven or hell fair if we do not get to choose our own actions? Another possible conclusion is that there is no omniscient or omnipotent god, but that violates the assumptions of nearly every religion in the world. The question of free will is one of the many gaping holes in tradtional Christian dogma, in my opinion.ravensfan5252

Did his question have anything to do with religion? No, and this shows that you are just trying to find a thread to vent on. First of all, we have free will, and it's our free will to decide what we won't to do with our lives. If God didn't give you free will, then how are you walking? Obviously you wouldn't have the free will on how to walk, talk, and function physically, mentally, and all around. You need to really look into things before you bash them, man.