Drug wars - destabilising and corrupting.

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Hoobinator

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#1 Hoobinator
Member since 2006 • 6899 Posts

Mexico's drug war.

5612 people were killed in Mexican drug wars in 2008 alone. Violence has gripped the country with kidnappings, lawlessness and breakdown of society slowly starting to happen in parts of the country. Innocent people have been caught in the middle of what is effectively a power struggle between the government and drug warlords.

I've been following the war on drugs for a while now, and am only posting this due to the massive surge in increased violence against the government and innocent people all over parts of Central and South America, notably Mexico, Colombia. We focus a lot on the war on terror whilst neglecting that another brutal war,a genuine war, at times has been ongoing that is slowly ripping nations apart and leading to innocent lives being lost.

A report last week accused the war on drugs as destabilising many nations and jeapardizing and corrupting democracy, the legal and law systems in those countries.

Drugs being produced around the world have been increasing massively over the past few years and the amount entering the US shows no signs of abating.

Time to rethink, me thinks on the strategy of defeating drugs both domestically within the US and internationally. If the war on drugs is allowed to continue as it ismany South and Central American nations will for all intents and purposes collapse. The fallout of the drugs wars has already been paid in heavy price with innocent deaths.

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Darth-Caedus

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#2 Darth-Caedus
Member since 2008 • 20756 Posts
I say stop, people will always do drugs, your not going to stop it, why get innocent people killed over a war you can't win?
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xTheExploited

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#3 xTheExploited
Member since 2007 • 12094 Posts
Yeah, drugs are pretty bad. I dunno what else to say.
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Dawq902

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#4 Dawq902
Member since 2007 • 6796 Posts
In my civics class today we were talking about the dog searches they were going to start randomly having in our school. Most people in the class did not care about the issue becuase they don't bring drugs to school. The three kids in class who were strongly against it were the obvious pot heads and i thought it was kinda funny. When they were 'defending there case' everyone including the teacher was just thinking that they were part of the reason why we were having these drug searches. It was also funny because one of the kids was saying 'we (our town) don't have the hard drugs like cocaine and heroine' when we all know that he has done crack and you can just go into any neighborhood and find your a heroine adict. The whole thing was very ironic.
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unholymight

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#5 unholymight
Member since 2007 • 3378 Posts
This is why marijuana shouldn't be legalized.
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Darth-Caedus

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#6 Darth-Caedus
Member since 2008 • 20756 Posts
This is why marijuana shouldn't be legalized.unholymight
....It shouldn't be legalized because innocent people are dying in a war ment to get rid of it:?
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hamstergeddon

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#7 hamstergeddon
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This is why marijuana shouldn't be legalized.unholymight
:| Um... what? In Mexico marjuana isn't legal either. Logical fallacy, old sport!
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unholymight

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#8 unholymight
Member since 2007 • 3378 Posts
[QUOTE="unholymight"]This is why marijuana shouldn't be legalized.hamstergeddon
:| Um... what? In Mexico marjuana isn't legal either. Logical fallacy, old sport!

If illegal marijuana causes this much trouble, then how much trouble would legalizing it cause?
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Hoobinator

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#9 Hoobinator
Member since 2006 • 6899 Posts
This is why marijuana shouldn't be legalized.unholymight
Of all the drugs you need to worry about, Marijuana isn't top priority.
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unholymight

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#10 unholymight
Member since 2007 • 3378 Posts
[QUOTE="unholymight"]This is why marijuana shouldn't be legalized.Hoobinator
Of all the drugs you need to worry about, Marijuana isn't top priority.

Drugs are drugs, I don't see the difference.
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Rikardur

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#11 Rikardur
Member since 2008 • 9290 Posts
I think they should just do what Colvin did in The Wire. Make Free Zones which are out of the way of everything and allow drugs to be sold there, and bust up anybody selling drugs outside of the designated areas. But it probably won't work too well, never can tell how they will react.
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hamstergeddon

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#12 hamstergeddon
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[QUOTE="hamstergeddon"][QUOTE="unholymight"]This is why marijuana shouldn't be legalized.unholymight
:| Um... what? In Mexico marjuana isn't legal either. Logical fallacy, old sport!

If illegal marijuana causes this much trouble, then how much trouble would legalizing it cause?

none. Considering marjuana violence now comes in the form of gang violence. And with the legalization gangs would go out of business since we now have legitimate businesses selling it instead of gangs. Just like in Prohibition. Take away the gangs' source of income, and their empires collapse.
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MoonMarvel

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#13 MoonMarvel
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I say stop, people will always do drugs, your not going to stop it, why get innocent people killed over a war you can't win?Darth-Caedus
Nope, it can be easily won via Education, Health Care and Anti-Poverty efforts. So no, they need to keep them illegal and keep on trucking.
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Hoobinator

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#14 Hoobinator
Member since 2006 • 6899 Posts
[QUOTE="unholymight"] Drugs are drugs, I don't see the difference.

In which case tobacco is a drug which causes high mortality rates so it should be permabanned. And alcohol is a drug after all which causes massive negative societal externalities, e.g. drink driving deaths, domestic violence, general violence etc.
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hamstergeddon

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#15 hamstergeddon
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[QUOTE="Hoobinator"][QUOTE="unholymight"]This is why marijuana shouldn't be legalized.unholymight
Of all the drugs you need to worry about, Marijuana isn't top priority.

Drugs are drugs, I don't see the difference.

Well, for starters, there have been exactly 0 deaths from ODing on marijuana, while the deaths caused by heroine and crystal meth are in their thousands (not an exact number, just a ballpark)
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#16 unholymight
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[QUOTE="hamstergeddon"][QUOTE="unholymight"][QUOTE="hamstergeddon"] :| Um... what? In Mexico marjuana isn't legal either. Logical fallacy, old sport!

If illegal marijuana causes this much trouble, then how much trouble would legalizing it cause?

none. Considering marjuana violence now comes in the form of gang violence. And with the legalization gangs would go out of business since we now have legitimate businesses selling it instead of gangs. Just like in Prohibition. Take away the gangs' source of income, and their empires collapse.

I'm sure grow-ops are far more risky than other types of organized crime, so it wouldn't dramatically affect their incomes. Besides, even if it were to seriously affect their finances, they would just rebel and create a wave of gun violence, knowing that guns are still legal in the US.
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Hoobinator

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#17 Hoobinator
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[QUOTE="Darth-Caedus"]I say stop, people will always do drugs, your not going to stop it, why get innocent people killed over a war you can't win?MoonMarvel
Nope, it can be easily won via Education, Health Care and Anti-Poverty efforts. So no, they need to keep them illegal and keep on trucking.

But you're advocating a rethink there. Alleviating poverty levels hasn't especially been high on the agenda of many governments when it comes to drugs. Instead the war on drugs has been fought mainly by waging a direct war against the drug lords and penalising heavily the small guys on the streets as well as the end user.
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#18 tzar3
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I live near the border here in El Paso and going to Juarez in Mexico can be frightful due to the drug lords ordering hits and getting in gunfights with police and even soldiers who patrol the streets and such, and it dosen't help that the news in the mornings always has a report of people found dead almost every day and all the brutal beheadings and threats. I honestly dont know how will anyone stop drug trafficking and such. People will always find ways to defy the law, and the police on Juarez ain't **** neither, hell some of them work for the Narcos. Theres to much corruption.
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deactivated-57af49c27f4e8

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#19 deactivated-57af49c27f4e8
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how to handle drugs - no matter what you do, people will find a way to get drugs into the country. allow certain drugs! marijuana should be legal, far too much trouble goes into getting it here if it isn't grown here. sell it in gas stations and tax it. sure, many people will find other ways to get it, but just having it there will lead to some sales and a few bucks here and there from tax. legalization means much higher quantities = cheaper prices. that should drive gangs out of business.
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Hoobinator

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#20 Hoobinator
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I live near the border here in El Paso and going to Juarez in Mexico can be frightful due to the drug lords ordering hits and getting in gunfights with police and even soldiers who patrol the streets and such, and it dosen't help that the news in the mornings always has a report of people found dead almost every day and all the brutal beheadings and threats. I honestly dont know how will anyone stop drug trafficking and such. People will always find ways to defy the law, and the police on Juarez ain't **** neither, hell some of them work for the Narcos. Theres to much corruption.tzar3
As a man directly involved in the drug wars, do you feel that the war on drugs has been beneficial? And secondly if not, what do you feel is the best to stop drugs? Would a de-escalation of fighting actually cause less deaths.
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deactivated-57af49c27f4e8

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#21 deactivated-57af49c27f4e8
Member since 2005 • 14149 Posts
woops
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hamstergeddon

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#22 hamstergeddon
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[QUOTE="unholymight"][QUOTE="hamstergeddon"][QUOTE="unholymight"] If illegal marijuana causes this much trouble, then how much trouble would legalizing it cause?

none. Considering marjuana violence now comes in the form of gang violence. And with the legalization gangs would go out of business since we now have legitimate businesses selling it instead of gangs. Just like in Prohibition. Take away the gangs' source of income, and their empires collapse.

I'm sure grow-ops are far more risky than other types of organized crime, so it wouldn't dramatically affect their incomes. Besides, even if it were to seriously affect their finances, they would just rebel and create a wave of gun violence, knowing that guns are still legal in the US.

That's speculation. You can't just assert that something will happen in the future and expect us to believe that's the truth. Based on passed examples (Prohibition) what will likely happen is the drug overlords that got rich off of selling these drugs will just fade off into obscurity when they can no longer compete with legitimate businesses on a legal, national scale.
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SSBFan12

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#23 SSBFan12
Member since 2008 • 11981 Posts
It should carry on as it is.
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MoonMarvel

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#24 MoonMarvel
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[QUOTE="MoonMarvel"][QUOTE="Darth-Caedus"]I say stop, people will always do drugs, your not going to stop it, why get innocent people killed over a war you can't win?Hoobinator
Nope, it can be easily won via Education, Health Care and Anti-Poverty efforts. So no, they need to keep them illegal and keep on trucking.

But you're advocating a rethink there. Alleviating poverty levels hasn't especially been high on the agenda of many governments when it comes to drugs. Instead the war on drugs has been fought mainly by waging a direct war against the drug lords and penalising heavily the small guys on the streets as well as the end user.

You're right I am advocating a rethink on how to deal with drugs. Governments need to focus more on what causes people to go to drugs in the first place and if you are poor or have other problems like abuse at home etc your chances of getting into drugs and gangs only increase. I don't see much benefit in just throwing people in jail for everything they do.
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Hoobinator

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#25 Hoobinator
Member since 2006 • 6899 Posts
It should carry on as it is.SSBFan12
But it's not going anywhere. If anything the countries in which it was supposed to "help" are slowly breaking down.
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#26 Mr_sprinkles
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What has the war on drugs achieved? Has it stopped production of illegal drugs? No. Has it slowed production of illegal drugs? No. Has it decreased the consumption of illegal drugs? No. Has it weakened the drug cartels in South America? No. Is it time for a new approach....?
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z4twenny

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#27 z4twenny
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the best thing that can be done is to take a more logical policy. the few places and countries which have "hard" drugs decriminalized generally have a much lower crime rate. amsterdam is an awesome example of this. it's been proven that decriminalization, production and taxation inside the united states could bring in over 10 billion $ in revenue (which could be sorely used, especially now) in a matter of several years. before i get the hardcore right wing crowd saying "if this was true then how come nobodys done it yet, they haven't done it because its *insert propaganda here*" the actual answer to it is quite simple. politicians get funding from tobacco and alcohol companies who don't want their control on their respective industries put at a possibility of loss. politicians don't want to lose the free money they get from these companies, therefore to keep getting this money they keep it illegal. it really is quite simple and entirely political, otherwise it would be legal by now as a large majority of dr's support its use for treating everything from cancer to add/adhd (i used to take it for add until i got put on probation, it affects the seratonin in your brain the same way that amphetamines do but without that amphetamine screwiness)
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hamstergeddon

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#28 hamstergeddon
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the best thing that can be done is to take a more logical policy. the few places and countries which have "hard" drugs decriminalized generally have a much lower crime rate. amsterdam is an awesome example of this. it's been proven that decriminalization, production and taxation inside the united states could bring in over 10 billion $ in revenue (which could be sorely used, especially now) in a matter of several years. before i get the hardcore right wing crowd saying "if this was true then how come nobodys done it yet, they haven't done it because its *insert propaganda here*" the actual answer to it is quite simple. politicians get funding from tobacco and alcohol companies who don't want their control on their respective industries put at a possibility of loss. politicians don't want to lose the free money they get from these companies, therefore to keep getting this money they keep it illegal. it really is quite simple and entirely political, otherwise it would be legal by now as a large majority of dr's support its use for treating everything from cancer to add/adhd (i used to take it for add until i got put on probation, it affects the seratonin in your brain the same way that amphetamines do but without that amphetamine screwiness) z4twenny
Those are some good points, but I disagree that hard drugs should be legalized. Meth ****s you up beyond belief (google img "crystal meth addicts before and after" and you'll see the mental and physical damage it can do. But there's simply no reason pot should be illegal seeing as tobacco and alcohol are worse yet legal.
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thardus317

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#29 thardus317
Member since 2004 • 6400 Posts
As long as there is a demand for drugs there will be bloodshed... but I'm sure that people who do drugs don't really care about that...
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#30 Mr_sprinkles
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[QUOTE="z4twenny"]the best thing that can be done is to take a more logical policy. the few places and countries which have "hard" drugs decriminalized generally have a much lower crime rate. amsterdam is an awesome example of this. it's been proven that decriminalization, production and taxation inside the united states could bring in over 10 billion $ in revenue (which could be sorely used, especially now) in a matter of several years. before i get the hardcore right wing crowd saying "if this was true then how come nobodys done it yet, they haven't done it because its *insert propaganda here*" the actual answer to it is quite simple. politicians get funding from tobacco and alcohol companies who don't want their control on their respective industries put at a possibility of loss. politicians don't want to lose the free money they get from these companies, therefore to keep getting this money they keep it illegal. it really is quite simple and entirely political, otherwise it would be legal by now as a large majority of dr's support its use for treating everything from cancer to add/adhd (i used to take it for add until i got put on probation, it affects the seratonin in your brain the same way that amphetamines do but without that amphetamine screwiness) hamstergeddon
Those are some good points, but I disagree that hard drugs should be legalized. Meth ****s you up beyond belief (google img "crystal meth addicts before and after" and you'll see the mental and physical damage it can do. But there's simply no reason pot should be illegal seeing as tobacco and alcohol are worse yet legal.

not necessarily legalised in the sense that you could go down to your chemist and pick some up off the shelf, but for hardcore addicts to things like heroin, having it available on prescription (publicly funded? another argument altogether) would bring benefits of all kinds. The most obvious reason being that if they could get the stuff for free/for cheap, they wouldn't have to rob or mug people for money. Having it available in a controlled environment would mean a greatly reduced risk of things like AIDS, as it would eliminate needle sharing. Needles wouldn't be left out in public places for people to pick up or injure themselves on. Controlled doses would mean less risk of ODs. It might attract addicts to treatment who otherwise wouldn't.
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MoonMarvel

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#31 MoonMarvel
Member since 2008 • 8249 Posts
[QUOTE="hamstergeddon"][QUOTE="z4twenny"]the best thing that can be done is to take a more logical policy. the few places and countries which have "hard" drugs decriminalized generally have a much lower crime rate. amsterdam is an awesome example of this. it's been proven that decriminalization, production and taxation inside the united states could bring in over 10 billion $ in revenue (which could be sorely used, especially now) in a matter of several years. before i get the hardcore right wing crowd saying "if this was true then how come nobodys done it yet, they haven't done it because its *insert propaganda here*" the actual answer to it is quite simple. politicians get funding from tobacco and alcohol companies who don't want their control on their respective industries put at a possibility of loss. politicians don't want to lose the free money they get from these companies, therefore to keep getting this money they keep it illegal. it really is quite simple and entirely political, otherwise it would be legal by now as a large majority of dr's support its use for treating everything from cancer to add/adhd (i used to take it for add until i got put on probation, it affects the seratonin in your brain the same way that amphetamines do but without that amphetamine screwiness) Mr_sprinkles
Those are some good points, but I disagree that hard drugs should be legalized. Meth ****s you up beyond belief (google img "crystal meth addicts before and after" and you'll see the mental and physical damage it can do. But there's simply no reason pot should be illegal seeing as tobacco and alcohol are worse yet legal.

not necessarily legalised in the sense that you could go down to your chemist and pick some up off the shelf, but for hardcore addicts to things like heroin, having it available on prescription (publicly funded? another argument altogether) would bring benefits of all kinds. The most obvious reason being that if they could get the stuff for free/for cheap, they wouldn't have to rob or mug people for money. Having it available in a controlled environment would mean a greatly reduced risk of things like AIDS, as it would eliminate needle sharing. Needles wouldn't be left out in public places for people to pick up or injure themselves on. Controlled doses would mean less risk of ODs. It might attract addicts to treatment who otherwise wouldn't.

Switzerland does something like that, allows people to go to areas for their hook and therapy to cope. It doesn't work as 95% of the people involved never get off the drugs they are there for.
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#32 LoeJance
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I say stop, people will always do drugs, your not going to stop it, why get innocent people killed over a war you can't win?Darth-Caedus
This man speaks the truth
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#33 quiglythegreat
Member since 2006 • 16886 Posts
Legalize marijuana. That puts quite a damper on anyone's influence in Mexico.
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#35 Mr_sprinkles
Member since 2005 • 6461 Posts
Legalize marijuana. That puts quite a damper on anyone's influence in Mexico.quiglythegreat
It's mainly opiates coming from South America.
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z4twenny

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#36 z4twenny
Member since 2006 • 4898 Posts
as rotten and evil as it sounds i have a firm belief of let the junkies kill themselves off. our world is overpopulated enough as is, which is a totally 180 from the generally liberal point of view i have on most things. my previous statement was really about marijuana and the drugs that don't generally cause fatalities (marijuana, ecstasy, mushrooms, lsd, etc) i know what happens to speed/meth junkies, i've had friends die and go to jail because of it. they'd all tell you now that they know it was their choice to do what they did and they knew what they were doing even at the time.
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Eternal_Triumph

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#37 Eternal_Triumph
Member since 2008 • 512 Posts
Legalize marijuana. That puts quite a damper on anyone's influence in Mexico.quiglythegreat

no, wrong.
The majority of pot consumed in the US is now grown in the US, sure there are still pounds of green coming from Mexico, but all the bloodshed and serious trafficking is coming from Cocaine. a Kilo of coke is super cheap in Mexico, It is made in Boliva and Columbia, 1st stop is El Savador and Mexico, than it goes thru the border to us.
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bethwo

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#38 bethwo
Member since 2008 • 1718 Posts
I say legalize drugs, all drugs. From what I know, it just seems that the benefits from legalisation of drugs would outweigh the benefits of prohibiting them.
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Eternal_Triumph

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#39 Eternal_Triumph
Member since 2008 • 512 Posts
the only thing drug dealers and criminals are scared of is legalization.
it means they will have to resort to robbery which is more scarce, difficult, and pays less.
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Big_player

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#40 Big_player
Member since 2004 • 6187 Posts
In my civics class today we were talking about the dog searches they were going to start randomly having in our school. Most people in the class did not care about the issue becuase they don't bring drugs to school. The three kids in class who were strongly against it were the obvious pot heads and i thought it was kinda funny. When they were 'defending there case' everyone including the teacher was just thinking that they were part of the reason why we were having these drug searches. It was also funny because one of the kids was saying 'we (our town) don't have the hard drugs like cocaine and heroine' when we all know that he has done crack and you can just go into any neighborhood and find your a heroine adict. The whole thing was very ironic.Dawq902
Although I am a huge supporter of civil rights, especially a right from unlawful search and seizure, I fully support drug dogs in school. Here in Ontario it is illegal to bring a drug dog through a school, and the students at my school know this. The result is after every class when people open their lockers the smell of burnt and fresh marijuana wafts down the halls, drug deals happen pretty much everywhere from in the classroom to the cafeteria and in the bathroom. While for the most part it is contained to marijuana in my area I have seen kids dealing coke, shrooms, Oxycontin, LSA and even crack.
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#41 Mikey132
Member since 2005 • 5180 Posts
As long as drugs exist. People will be doing them. Drugs are not a 20th-21st Century problem. Drugs have been around almost as long as we humans have!