Fate or Free Will

Which is it OT? Fate? Free Will? A mix?

I think it's a mixture. What I mean is God created everything, including all possibilities and choices, but gave free will so we can still choose our experience. So in a way, everything is predetermined, but we have free will in choosing which path we want to take.

free will does not exist destiny does not exist the physical forces that cause things to happen are inevitable, but have no purpose.EMOEVOLUTION

You don't believe we have the ability to choose our experience? I'm not necessarily saying the events that occur in our lives, but the way in which we experience and act from there? Free will doesn't exist in that?

[QUOTE="EMOEVOLUTION"]free will does not exist destiny does not exist the physical forces that cause things to happen are inevitable, but have no purpose.MystikFollower

You don't believe we have the ability to choose our experience? I'm not necessarily saying the events that occur in our lives, but the way in which we experience and act from there? Free will doesn't exist in that?

Dependent co-origination. We have "choices," but they are highly dependent on our biological, psychological and cultural predispositions. True "free will" doesn't exist. i.e. someone who lives in a village in India can't just "choose" to become a doctor and move to the West; they have familial and village obligations that keep them from just running off, and they don't have the education background in order to fulfill the requirements of a Western medical system. So they aren't "free" to choose whatever they want.

However, "destiny" or a "designed fate" most certainly doesn't exist either. That would imply that there is something not only designing it, but controlling us.

The concept of fate would make all laws void. "I didn't want to steal, kill, rape, abuse, torture, etc., it was my destiny." The only way one can judge others for there actions, the only way we can have a concept of good and evil is it free will is in control.

I do have a question, if there were a god would that mean we were all destined to our fate? The are lots of places in the bible were it says god knows the beginning and the end. He knows what we will do before we do it. Which means he has already determined it even before we were born. So how could he condemn a person for sins that the person was destined to commit even before birth? Diablo-B

[QUOTE="Diablo-B"]The concept of fate would make all laws void. "I didn't want to steal, kill, rape, abuse, torture, etc., it was my destiny." The only way one can judge others for there actions, the only way we can have a concept of good and evil is it free will is in control.

I do have a question, if there were a god would that mean we were all destined to our fate? The are lots of places in the bible were it says god knows the beginning and the end. He knows what we will do before we do it. Which means he has already determined it even before we were born. So how could he condemn a person for sins that the person was destined to commit even before birth? EMOEVOLUTION

[QUOTE="EMOEVOLUTION"]

[QUOTE="Diablo-B"]The concept of fate would make all laws void. "I didn't want to steal, kill, rape, abuse, torture, etc., it was my destiny." The only way one can judge others for there actions, the only way we can have a concept of good and evil is it free will is in control.

I do have a question, if there were a god would that mean we were all destined to our fate? The are lots of places in the bible were it says god knows the beginning and the end. He knows what we will do before we do it. Which means he has already determined it even before we were born. So how could he condemn a person for sins that the person was destined to commit even before birth? Diablo-B

Free will.

It's tough for sure though.

I don't believe in fate outside of novels.

A mix, free will usually having the upper hand.

The concept of fate would make all laws void. "I didn't want to steal, kill, rape, abuse, torture, etc., it was my destiny." The only way one can judge others for there actions, the only way we can have a concept of good and evil is it free will is in control.

Diablo-B

Not if they're basis is pragmatic, as opposed to moral. Granted, the mentality that one's own actions are a result of fate could quite possibly alter how humanity acts.

neither

I think it's a mixture..

think of it as a tree

(I know it's a dead tree but i used it to emphasize my point)

God knows all the possible routes there are for people in their life on this Earth.

but Man it is as if the path is not clear because he's stuck on a Mobius Strip

By all acounts to the person living their life, life and time seems very linear when it really isn't and the choices not taken seem just a mind game of what if's.

So in a weird way in terms for God it is a fate.

but not totally fate as the person living their life has the free to choose some of the events. and like some of the branches that suddenly turn when there is no fork in the road. i metaphorically refer to those as those events in peoples lives where they didn't have a choice in the matter and life changed on you.

Hope that made sense.

but that's how i see it.

Things can sort of align themself (fate), but it is up to you to follow that path(free will).

Dependent co-origination. We have "choices," but they are highly dependent on our biological, psychological and cultural predispositions. True "free will" doesn't exist. i.e. someone who lives in a village in India can't just "choose" to become a doctor and move to the West; they have familial and village obligations that keep them from just running off, and they don't have the education background in order to fulfill the requirements of a Western medical system. So they aren't "free" to choose whatever they want.

However, "destiny" or a "designed fate" most certainly doesn't exist either. That would imply that there is something not only designing it, but controlling us.

foxhound_fox

For me, I have free will, its just that i dont have the will to use it sometimes.

Everything that is happening now, has already happened. It will continue to happen. Everything in the future has already happened, and is happening right now.

I believe in a mix of both..

I believe in both. To put it succinctly, fate is the card we are dealt with (ie: biological traits, parents we are born to, country of birth). It is things that we are born with that we have no control over. Free will is what we will do at any given moment (ie: what to eat for lunch, what career path to choose, who do I choose to marry). I think of the two concepts as inseparable and complimentary to each other

im not a huge believer in fate so frell will i guess

Being one of only two people to choose fate, I suppose I should explain.

First, the answer to this question depends on what one means by "free will". If free will is just the ability to do what you want to do, then free will trivially exists, but then the question regarding whether or not free will exists is not terribly interesting.

Instead, I view free will as the state in which one does an action when one might have instead done a different action. And this I believe does not truly exist. Every action that any human does is done because the human judges it as the best route to fulfill either a desire or a value that that human possesses. And every desire or value that a human possesses is ultimately out of their control. One does not simply wake up in the morning and decide for absolutely no reason that they want something.

And frankly, I have to say, thank God that there is no true free will. If there were not, then humans could not be predictable, and at no point in time could you ever be confident that some guy off the street will not just randomly decide to murder you.

Being one of only two people to choose fate, I suppose I should explain.

First, the answer to this question depends on what one means by "free will". If free will is just the ability to do what you want to do, then free will trivially exists, but then the question regarding whether or not free will exists is not terribly interesting.

Instead, I view free will as the state in which one does an action when one might have instead done a different action. And this I believe does not truly exist. Every action that any human does is done because the human judges it as the best route to fulfill either a desire or a value that that human possesses. And every desire or value that a human possesses is ultimately out of their control. One does not simply wake up in the morning and decide for absolutely no reason that they want something.

And frankly, I have to say, thank God that there is no true free will. If there were not, then humans could not be predictable, and at no point in time could you ever be confident that some guy off the street will not just randomly decide to murder you.

GabuEx

I think I understand your definition and agree to an extent but I feel as though it is lacking in that it does not describe a person in a moral dilemma. For instance, say I am an avid Christian and believe stealing is wrong, however my family is starving and needs food. I now have an available option as well as a strong compulsion to steal a loaf of bread from the store. In this situation I have legitimate reasons to perform either action. What determines which i will choose? Do you think it is just a formula consisting of the my background/genetics that ultimately leads to the choice I will make? Or is human will capable of overriding all other factors, thus if the individual resists this compulsion he has expressed his "free will"? Plzhelpmelearn

How does it not describe a person in a moral dilemma? Often a person's desires can be in conflict, and at that point in time his brain enters a state of cognitive dissonance at which point it tries to determine a way to achieve both, and this will continue either until it finds a way to do so or until it reaches a conclusion regarding which it values more, at which point in time it will discard the one valued less and work towards achieving the one it values more. Moral dilemmas are no less governed by cause and effect than everyday decisions.

[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]I think I understand your definition and agree to an extent but I feel as though it is lacking in that it does not describe a person in a moral dilemma. For instance, say I am an avid Christian and believe stealing is wrong, however my family is starving and needs food. I now have an available option as well as a strong compulsion to steal a loaf of bread from the store. In this situation I have legitimate reasons to perform either action. What determines which i will choose? Do you think it is just a formula consisting of the my background/genetics that ultimately leads to the choice I will make? Or is human will capable of overriding all other factors, thus if the individual resists this compulsion he has expressed his "free will"? GabuEx

How does it not describe a person in a moral dilemma? Often a person's desires can be in conflict, and at that point in time his brain enters a state of cognitive dissonance at which point it tries to determine a way to achieve both, and this will continue either until it finds a way to do so or until it reaches a conclusion regarding which it values more, at which point in time it will discard the one valued less and work towards achieving the one it values more. Moral dilemmas are no less governed by cause and effect than everyday decisions.

And this is determined by what. Genetics and background?

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]I think I understand your definition and agree to an extent but I feel as though it is lacking in that it does not describe a person in a moral dilemma. For instance, say I am an avid Christian and believe stealing is wrong, however my family is starving and needs food. I now have an available option as well as a strong compulsion to steal a loaf of bread from the store. In this situation I have legitimate reasons to perform either action. What determines which i will choose? Do you think it is just a formula consisting of the my background/genetics that ultimately leads to the choice I will make? Or is human will capable of overriding all other factors, thus if the individual resists this compulsion he has expressed his "free will"? Plzhelpmelearn

How does it not describe a person in a moral dilemma? Often a person's desires can be in conflict, and at that point in time his brain enters a state of cognitive dissonance at which point it tries to determine a way to achieve both, and this will continue either until it finds a way to do so or until it reaches a conclusion regarding which it values more, at which point in time it will discard the one valued less and work towards achieving the one it values more. Moral dilemmas are no less governed by cause and effect than everyday decisions.

And this is determined by what. Genetics and background?

More or less, yes. I certainly don't think it's based on some sort of arbitrary and really rather ill-defined "free will". Every action a person does is done for a reason. If some entity knew everything there was to know, I have no doubt that any given human's actions would be entirely predictable.

[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

How does it not describe a person in a moral dilemma? Often a person's desires can be in conflict, and at that point in time his brain enters a state of cognitive dissonance at which point it tries to determine a way to achieve both, and this will continue either until it finds a way to do so or until it reaches a conclusion regarding which it values more, at which point in time it will discard the one valued less and work towards achieving the one it values more. Moral dilemmas are no less governed by cause and effect than everyday decisions.

GabuEx

And this is determined by what. Genetics and background?

More or less, yes. I certainly don't think it's based on some sort of arbitrary and really rather ill-defined "free will". Every action a person does is done for a reason. If some entity knew everything there was to know, I have no doubt that any given human's actions would be entirely predictable.

I don't doubt at all that everything a human does has a reason, but I guess I'm only questioning when there are multiple conflicting reasons to do things. It is easy after the fact to see the reasoning behind a decision (hindsight bias), but a lot harder to predict the decision before, as I'm sure you are aware. I don't really have any idea myself, but I can say that I hope that you are wrong. I rather fancy the idea that I am not just the result of a very long, complicated formula of experiences and DNA and that there is something in me that makes my decisions which, while usually in line with those factors, can make them (when it needs to) despite all of that.

Plzhelpmelearn

Have you ever found yourself in a moral dilemma? If so, what was it, and how did you resolve it?

[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]I think I understand your definition and agree to an extent but I feel as though it is lacking in that it does not describe a person in a moral dilemma. For instance, say I am an avid Christian and believe stealing is wrong, however my family is starving and needs food. I now have an available option as well as a strong compulsion to steal a loaf of bread from the store. In this situation I have legitimate reasons to perform either action. What determines which i will choose? Do you think it is just a formula consisting of the my background/genetics that ultimately leads to the choice I will make? Or is human will capable of overriding all other factors, thus if the individual resists this compulsion he has expressed his "free will"? GabuEx

How does it not describe a person in a moral dilemma? Often a person's desires can be in conflict, and at that point in time his brain enters a state of cognitive dissonance at which point it tries to determine a way to achieve both, and this will continue either until it finds a way to do so or until it reaches a conclusion regarding which it values more, at which point in time it will discard the one valued less and work towards achieving the one it values more. Moral dilemmas are no less governed by cause and effect than everyday decisions.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Plzhelpmelearn"]I think I understand your definition and agree to an extent but I feel as though it is lacking in that it does not describe a person in a moral dilemma. For instance, say I am an avid Christian and believe stealing is wrong, however my family is starving and needs food. I now have an available option as well as a strong compulsion to steal a loaf of bread from the store. In this situation I have legitimate reasons to perform either action. What determines which i will choose? Do you think it is just a formula consisting of the my background/genetics that ultimately leads to the choice I will make? Or is human will capable of overriding all other factors, thus if the individual resists this compulsion he has expressed his "free will"? _Cadbury_

How does it not describe a person in a moral dilemma? Often a person's desires can be in conflict, and at that point in time his brain enters a state of cognitive dissonance at which point it tries to determine a way to achieve both, and this will continue either until it finds a way to do so or until it reaches a conclusion regarding which it values more, at which point in time it will discard the one valued less and work towards achieving the one it values more. Moral dilemmas are no less governed by cause and effect than everyday decisions.

The fact that we make decisions does not imply that said decisions come from some sort of arbitrary "free will", any more than the fact that a rock falls down implies that it did so out of free will.

Both.

God has set out the destiny for mankind, but since we don't know our destinies, we have free will as far as we are concerned.

Both.

God has set out the destiny for mankind, but since we don't know our destinies, we have free will as far as we are concerned.

ghoklebutter

Rather than "both", that would seem to be closer to "Fate, but we just don't know it". :P