Gunmen opens fire at Dutch Mall.

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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#1 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42508543/ns/world_news-europe

7 dead and 11 wounded. People are crazy.

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worlock77

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#2 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts
Impossible. These things only happen in America.
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TheArGaia

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#3 TheArGaia
Member since 2011 • 629 Posts

Ib4 people go crazy about gun control.

In all seriousness, this is a terrible tragedy, my thoughts go out to the families.

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dkrustyklown

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#4 dkrustyklown
Member since 2009 • 2387 Posts

This is proof that gun bans accomplish nothing.

It is better to die free than live in chains.

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killerfist

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#5 killerfist
Member since 2005 • 20155 Posts
Yeah, it's all over the news here. Though they speak of 6 deaths (including the killer). It seems these shootings is all the rage currently..crazy.
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kayoticdreamz

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#6 kayoticdreamz
Member since 2010 • 3347 Posts

This is proof that gun bans accomplish nothing.

It is better to die free than live in chains.

dkrustyklown
so very very true. if most people were carrying that nut serial killer would of died much much faster. and this is another case of a stand alone complex.(ghost in the shell reference)
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tom95b

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#7 tom95b
Member since 2008 • 4999 Posts

That's crazy. I live in The Netherlands and I didn't know this.:o

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Planeforger

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#8 Planeforger
Member since 2004 • 20082 Posts

This is proof that gun bans accomplish nothing.

dkrustyklown

Not really, no. How many shootings happen in The Netherlands compared to similar-sized countries where guns are allowed? I'm guessing that it's nowhere near as many.

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worlock77

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#9 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts
[QUOTE="dkrustyklown"]

This is proof that gun bans accomplish nothing.

It is better to die free than live in chains.

kayoticdreamz
so very very true. if most people were carrying that nut serial killer would of died much much faster.

That or a lot more people would have died as people start pulling out their pistols and firing wildly in a crowded area.
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kayoticdreamz

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#10 kayoticdreamz
Member since 2010 • 3347 Posts
[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"][QUOTE="dkrustyklown"]

This is proof that gun bans accomplish nothing.

It is better to die free than live in chains.

worlock77
so very very true. if most people were carrying that nut serial killer would of died much much faster.

That or a lot more people would have died as people start pulling out their pistols and firing wildly in a crowded area.

or people that own guns go to gun ranges practice shooting and would be able to hit their target.
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worlock77

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#11 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts
[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"][QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] so very very true. if most people were carrying that nut serial killer would of died much much faster.

That or a lot more people would have died as people start pulling out their pistols and firing wildly in a crowded area.

or people that own guns go to gun ranges practice shooting and would be able to hit their target.

Some do, some don't. Would you be willing to stake your life on every gun owner in that situation being that skilled in that situation? Not to mention that shooting at target at a practice range is a hell of a lot different than shooting at a moving person in a high intensity real life situation.
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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#12 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

Ib4 people go crazy about gun control.

In all seriousness, this is a terrible tragedy, my thoughts go out to the families.

TheArGaia

Actually, the dutch have gun control.

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BMD004

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#13 BMD004
Member since 2010 • 5883 Posts

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"][QUOTE="worlock77"] That or a lot more people would have died as people start pulling out their pistols and firing wildly in a crowded area.worlock77
or people that own guns go to gun ranges practice shooting and would be able to hit their target.

Some do, some don't. Would you be willing to stake your life on every gun owner in that situation being that skilled in that situation? Not to mention that shooting at target at a practice range is a hell of a lot different than shooting at a moving person in a high intensity real life situation.

In order to have a concealed carry license, you HAVE to go to the range and pass tests and practice.

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PcGamingRig

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#14 PcGamingRig
Member since 2009 • 7386 Posts

i hope he didn't do too much damage to all of the windmills.

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Lto_thaG

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#15 Lto_thaG
Member since 2006 • 22611 Posts

Saw it on the news.It's crazy.

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worlock77

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#16 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts

[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] or people that own guns go to gun ranges practice shooting and would be able to hit their target.BMD004

Some do, some don't. Would you be willing to stake your life on every gun owner in that situation being that skilled in that situation? Not to mention that shooting at target at a practice range is a hell of a lot different than shooting at a moving person in a high intensity real life situation.

In order to have a concealed carry license, you HAVE to go to the range and pass tests and practice.

And again, shooting at targets at a practice range is a hell of a lot different from shooting at a person in a high intensity real life situation. Plus, the subject is about the Netherlands, talking about the gun laws where you live is kinda moot, unless you happen to live in the Netherlands.
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BMD004

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#17 BMD004
Member since 2010 • 5883 Posts
[QUOTE="BMD004"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"] Some do, some don't. Would you be willing to stake your life on every gun owner in that situation being that skilled in that situation? Not to mention that shooting at target at a practice range is a hell of a lot different than shooting at a moving person in a high intensity real life situation.worlock77

In order to have a concealed carry license, you HAVE to go to the range and pass tests and practice.

And again, shooting at targets at a practice range is a hell of a lot different from shooting at a person in a high intensity real life situation. Plus, the subject is about the Netherlands, talking about the gun laws where you live is kinda moot, unless you happen to live in the Netherlands.

You just said "some do, some don't" in regards to the statement that people that own guns to to ranges to practice and they HAVE to be accurate to pass the test. Then they have to re-test every-so-often. I was just saying that you are wrong. In order to be allowed to have a concealed carry license, you MUST be proficient in using your firearm.
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worlock77

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#18 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts
[QUOTE="BMD004"]You just said "some do, some don't" in regards to the statement that people that own guns to to ranges to practice and they HAVE to be accurate to pass the test. Then they have to re-test every-so-often. I was just saying that you are wrong. In order to be allowed to have a concealed carry license, you MUST be proficient in using your firearm.

The statement that I was referring to said nothing of conceal-carry, it just said gun owners, period. And I like how you harp on that one minor non-point and completely ignore my larger point.
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BMD004

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#19 BMD004
Member since 2010 • 5883 Posts
[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="BMD004"]You just said "some do, some don't" in regards to the statement that people that own guns to to ranges to practice and they HAVE to be accurate to pass the test. Then they have to re-test every-so-often. I was just saying that you are wrong. In order to be allowed to have a concealed carry license, you MUST be proficient in using your firearm.

The statement that I was referring to said nothing of conceal-carry, it just said gun owners, period. And I like how you harp on that one minor non-point and completely ignore my larger point.

You can't carry a gun in a mall if you are just a gun owner. The only people who could carry a gun in the mall to take down a shooter would be those who have a gun on them... and those people need to have a license to carry their weapon. So yes, those people would be skilled shooters. That is all I was saying. You were wrong in that people who are carrying guns wouldn't know how to shoot. And I don't doubt that it is harder to hit a target when you are full of adrenaline. I don't disagree with that.
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worlock77

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#20 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts
[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="BMD004"]You just said "some do, some don't" in regards to the statement that people that own guns to to ranges to practice and they HAVE to be accurate to pass the test. Then they have to re-test every-so-often. I was just saying that you are wrong. In order to be allowed to have a concealed carry license, you MUST be proficient in using your firearm.

The statement that I was referring to said nothing of conceal-carry, it just said gun owners, period. And I like how you harp on that one minor non-point and completely ignore my larger point.

You can't carry a gun in a mall if you are just a gun owner. The only people who could carry a gun in the mall to take down a shooter would be those who have a gun on them... and those people need to have a license to carry their weapon. So yes, those people would be skilled shooters. That is all I was saying. You were wrong in that people who are carrying guns wouldn't know how to shoot. And I don't doubt that it is harder to hit a target when you are full of adrenaline. I don't disagree with that.

What part of Netherlands don't you understand there?
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BMD004

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#21 BMD004
Member since 2010 • 5883 Posts
[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="worlock77"] The statement that I was referring to said nothing of conceal-carry, it just said gun owners, period. And I like how you harp on that one minor non-point and completely ignore my larger point.

You can't carry a gun in a mall if you are just a gun owner. The only people who could carry a gun in the mall to take down a shooter would be those who have a gun on them... and those people need to have a license to carry their weapon. So yes, those people would be skilled shooters. That is all I was saying. You were wrong in that people who are carrying guns wouldn't know how to shoot. And I don't doubt that it is harder to hit a target when you are full of adrenaline. I don't disagree with that.

What part of Netherlands don't you understand there?

We are talking about a hypothetical scenario where guns would be legal in the Netherlands. If concealed-carry was legal there, they would have to get a concealed-carry license like in pretty much all first-world countries where it is legal to carry a firearm on your person.
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worlock77

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#22 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts
[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="BMD004"] You can't carry a gun in a mall if you are just a gun owner. The only people who could carry a gun in the mall to take down a shooter would be those who have a gun on them... and those people need to have a license to carry their weapon. So yes, those people would be skilled shooters. That is all I was saying. You were wrong in that people who are carrying guns wouldn't know how to shoot. And I don't doubt that it is harder to hit a target when you are full of adrenaline. I don't disagree with that.

What part of Netherlands don't you understand there?

We are talking about a hypothetical scenario where guns would be legal in the Netherlands. If concealed-carry was legal there, they would have to get a concealed-carry license like in pretty much all first-world countries where it is legal to carry a firearm on your person.

Who's to say they would have to? Hell, the Netherlands has things legal that pretty much no other first-world country has legal.
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VaguelyTagged

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#23 VaguelyTagged
Member since 2009 • 10702 Posts

what's going on in netherlands,a few days ago someone set himself on fire and now this,..:?

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BMD004

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#24 BMD004
Member since 2010 • 5883 Posts
[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="worlock77"] What part of Netherlands don't you understand there?

We are talking about a hypothetical scenario where guns would be legal in the Netherlands. If concealed-carry was legal there, they would have to get a concealed-carry license like in pretty much all first-world countries where it is legal to carry a firearm on your person.

Who's to say they would have to? Hell, the Netherlands has things legal that pretty much no other first-world country has legal.

Except for guns. But I'm basing it on the fact that even the gun-happy United States requires you to pass tests and actually show shooting proficiency, and are required to keep your skills up in order to be allowed to carry a gun on your person. So IF the Netherlands would ever allow people to carry guns, one can safely assume that there would be restrictions in place (as there are in pretty much every single country). Just because guns are legal in a country doesn't mean there isn't regulation... even in the United States.
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worlock77

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#25 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts
[QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="BMD004"] We are talking about a hypothetical scenario where guns would be legal in the Netherlands. If concealed-carry was legal there, they would have to get a concealed-carry license like in pretty much all first-world countries where it is legal to carry a firearm on your person.

Who's to say they would have to? Hell, the Netherlands has things legal that pretty much no other first-world country has legal.

Except for guns. But I'm basing it on the fact that even the gun-happy United States requires you to pass tests and actually show shooting proficiency, and are required to keep your skills up in order to be allowed to carry a gun on your person. So IF the Netherlands would ever allow people to carry guns, one can safely assume that there would be restrictions in place (as there are in pretty much every single country). Just because guns are legal in a country doesn't mean there isn't regulation... even in the United States.

Thank you for that. I never realized that we have gun regulations. And, the point was, again, that shooting at a target in a range is different from shooting at a real human being in a high-pressure situation. Even most police officers will tell you that. You can have all the training you want, but when it comes to a real situation you never know'll how you'll react or how well your skills will necessarily hold up.
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DraugenCP

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#26 DraugenCP
Member since 2006 • 8486 Posts

It's a tragedy, but gun-related violence in the Netherlands is very rare, unless maybe if you count organised crime mobs fighting each other, but you have that everywhere.

People can speculate all they want about what would've happened if more people had carried guns, but the last thing we need is a group of opportunistic Americans telling us how to legislate gun ownership. Changing our current laws isn't even up for debate here, and one event, tragic as it may be, will not change that.

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chasingmaynard

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#27 chasingmaynard
Member since 2005 • 3416 Posts

I always look at gun control in a different aspect than you guys are arguing about.

Maybe the guy would have been a little more hesitant to do anything at all if he knew that everyone around him could have been carrying weapons also.

Of course, you'll always have the "crazies" and the idiots that just don't give a flyin f, but I think if carrying was allowed it would cut down on alot of intrusive crimes, from criminals being a little more apprehensive.

My two cents.

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deactivated-5985f1128b98f

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#28 deactivated-5985f1128b98f
Member since 2007 • 1914 Posts

More guns = less crime.

The key to a peaceful society is a well armed, well trained citizenry.

*picks up flame shield and crouches behind it*

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chasingmaynard

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#29 chasingmaynard
Member since 2005 • 3416 Posts

More guns = less crime.

The key to a peaceful society is a well armed, well trained citizenry.

*picks up flame shield and crouches behind it*

collegeboy64

Don't worry about flames from me. I full heartedly agree.

I mean, I guess pulling a gun on someone to try and rob their wallet will definitely still put them in the worse position, whether the victim is carrying or not, but if other people in the area are carrying also, you would have to weigh that into consideration instead of just figuring "I've got the gun so I'm in control".

Just think of a store robbery. Not only would you have to worry about normal security, you have to worry about every other person in the place. The "cowboy hero" potential would be greatly increased, and any criminal,idiot or not, would have to think a little longer about that.

[edited because I mentioned 'bank' instead of store... Pretty sure you wouldn't be able to head into a bank while packing...]

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phillo99

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#30 phillo99
Member since 2005 • 2369 Posts

Only in America.

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APiranhaAteMyVa

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#31 APiranhaAteMyVa
Member since 2011 • 4160 Posts

Only in America.

phillo99
lol if you are going to kill people at least do it Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers style. Using a gun is incredibly cowardly.
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dunl12496

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#32 dunl12496
Member since 2009 • 5710 Posts

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Guns don't kill people uh uh. I kill people. . with guns. Pow!

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dunl12496

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#33 dunl12496
Member since 2009 • 5710 Posts

More guns = less crime.

The key to a peaceful society is a well armed, well trained citizenry.

*picks up flame shield and crouches behind it*

collegeboy64

I agree, but this is near impossible now as almost all countries normal citizens are a bunch of wimps.

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ToppledPillars

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#34 ToppledPillars
Member since 2010 • 1590 Posts
[QUOTE="phillo99"]

Only in America.

APiranhaAteMyVa
lol if you are going to kill people at least do it Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers style. Using a gun is incredibly cowardly.

Both are cowards who prey on women, next.
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#36 Colin1192
Member since 2008 • 6221 Posts

ITT: My faith in humanity is lost

Lol, who am i kidding, I lost that a long time ago

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TheArGaia

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#38 TheArGaia
Member since 2011 • 629 Posts

@auron_16 Agree with you 100%. WTF is up with some people?

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EntropyWins

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#39 EntropyWins
Member since 2010 • 1209 Posts
[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="BMD004"][QUOTE="worlock77"] Who's to say they would have to? Hell, the Netherlands has things legal that pretty much no other first-world country has legal.

Except for guns. But I'm basing it on the fact that even the gun-happy United States requires you to pass tests and actually show shooting proficiency, and are required to keep your skills up in order to be allowed to carry a gun on your person. So IF the Netherlands would ever allow people to carry guns, one can safely assume that there would be restrictions in place (as there are in pretty much every single country). Just because guns are legal in a country doesn't mean there isn't regulation... even in the United States.

Thank you for that. I never realized that we have gun regulations. And, the point was, again, that shooting at a target in a range is different from shooting at a real human being in a high-pressure situation. Even most police officers will tell you that. You can have all the training you want, but when it comes to a real situation you never know'll how you'll react or how well your skills will necessarily hold up.

I'm willing to bet that there is a high correlation between people who can hit the bullseye of a target with their pistol and people who can hit their target in real life. You make it seem as though no matter how much training you have you won't be prepared to aim and hit a target in real life. You will somehow become a maniac and just start firing into the crowd hoping to hit the shooter. This is not the case. I'm pretty sure they teach you not to do that in gun classes as well.
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kayoticdreamz

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#40 kayoticdreamz
Member since 2010 • 3347 Posts
[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"][QUOTE="worlock77"] That or a lot more people would have died as people start pulling out their pistols and firing wildly in a crowded area.

or people that own guns go to gun ranges practice shooting and would be able to hit their target.

Some do, some don't. Would you be willing to stake your life on every gun owner in that situation being that skilled in that situation? Not to mention that shooting at target at a practice range is a hell of a lot different than shooting at a moving person in a high intensity real life situation.

id rather have the worst aiming person in the world have a gun on him on this situation as it is still far better than being completely and totally defenseless. secondly if that guy starts shooting and see 20 people pop out a gun he has no idea the guns are loaded or not and he must make a decision fire one more shot and die or lay down and surrender its basic stuff here. and those 20 guns could be empty and unloaded but he sure as hell would not know. see? a crazy man isnt going to go in and shoot down a mall if he knows the majority are armed because thats simply nuts one man with a gun doesnt take on a whole army. let me also ask you this...if you are a burglar are you going to rob the neighborhood that you know is a gun free zone and no one owns a gun or the one that has people that own guns? guns deter criminals is the bottom line. criminals want easy targets armed people are not easy targets. hell there is no reason in a free land the people should not be armed. any attempt to block gun ownership is a clear sign of a tyrant as only a tyrant would have any rational reason to rob me of my right to own a gun and carry it as a please. its for self defense against criminals and tyrants. plain and simple.
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SUD123456

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#41 SUD123456
Member since 2007 • 7054 Posts

[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] or people that own guns go to gun ranges practice shooting and would be able to hit their target.kayoticdreamz
Some do, some don't. Would you be willing to stake your life on every gun owner in that situation being that skilled in that situation? Not to mention that shooting at target at a practice range is a hell of a lot different than shooting at a moving person in a high intensity real life situation.

id rather have the worst aiming person in the world have a gun on him on this situation as it is still far better than being completely and totally defenseless. secondly if that guy starts shooting and see 20 people pop out a gun he has no idea the guns are loaded or not and he must make a decision fire one more shot and die or lay down and surrender its basic stuff here. and those 20 guns could be empty and unloaded but he sure as hell would not know. see? a crazy man isnt going to go in and shoot down a mall if he knows the majority are armed because thats simply nuts one man with a gun doesnt take on a whole army. let me also ask you this...if you are a burglar are you going to rob the neighborhood that you know is a gun free zone and no one owns a gun or the one that has people that own guns? guns deter criminals is the bottom line. criminals want easy targets armed people are not easy targets. hell there is no reason in a free land the people should not be armed. any attempt to block gun ownership is a clear sign of a tyrant as only a tyrant would have any rational reason to rob me of my right to own a gun and carry it as a please. its for self defense against criminals and tyrants. plain and simple.

And yet the country with the largest amount of guns, particularly handguns has the highest per capita violent crime rate and the highest per capita murder rate. By far.

It is far to simplistic to argue that more guns make people safer.

As for your argument about tyrants :) it ismeaningless circular reasoning. I must have guns to protect myself from tyrants. Anyone who doesn't want me to have guns is a tyrant. Therefore, I must have guns both because I want them and because you don't want me to have them :) Unless you do want me to have them. bIt's a win win. Guns for everyone.

You might want to pause and ask yourself what is so broken with your society that you live in such fear that you feel guns are necessary?

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kris9031998

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#42 kris9031998
Member since 2008 • 7554 Posts

Ib4 people go crazy about gun control.

In all seriousness, this is a terrible tragedy, my thoughts go out to the families.

TheArGaia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARMoJ-9G68k

Rapin' our churches, burnin' our women.

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BMD004

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#43 BMD004
Member since 2010 • 5883 Posts

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"][QUOTE="worlock77"] Some do, some don't. Would you be willing to stake your life on every gun owner in that situation being that skilled in that situation? Not to mention that shooting at target at a practice range is a hell of a lot different than shooting at a moving person in a high intensity real life situation.SUD123456

id rather have the worst aiming person in the world have a gun on him on this situation as it is still far better than being completely and totally defenseless. secondly if that guy starts shooting and see 20 people pop out a gun he has no idea the guns are loaded or not and he must make a decision fire one more shot and die or lay down and surrender its basic stuff here. and those 20 guns could be empty and unloaded but he sure as hell would not know. see? a crazy man isnt going to go in and shoot down a mall if he knows the majority are armed because thats simply nuts one man with a gun doesnt take on a whole army. let me also ask you this...if you are a burglar are you going to rob the neighborhood that you know is a gun free zone and no one owns a gun or the one that has people that own guns? guns deter criminals is the bottom line. criminals want easy targets armed people are not easy targets. hell there is no reason in a free land the people should not be armed. any attempt to block gun ownership is a clear sign of a tyrant as only a tyrant would have any rational reason to rob me of my right to own a gun and carry it as a please. its for self defense against criminals and tyrants. plain and simple.

And yet the country with the largest amount of guns, particularly handguns has the highest per capita violent crime rate and the highest per capita murder rate. By far.

It is far to simplistic to argue that more guns make people safer.

As for your argument about tyrants :) it ismeaningless circular reasoning. I must have guns to protect myself from tyrants. Anyone who doesn't want me to have guns is a tyrant. Therefore, I must have guns both because I want them and because you don't want me to have them :) Unless you do want me to have them. bIt's a win win. Guns for everyone.

You might want to pause and ask yourself what is so broken with your society that you live in such fear that you feel guns are necessary?

What the hell? The country with the largest amount of guns per capita is Switzerland, and it has one of the LOWEST violent crime rates in the world. Secondly, there are countries like Mexico where guns are ILLEGAL, yet it is one of the most violent countries.
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Espada12

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#44 Espada12
Member since 2008 • 23247 Posts

[QUOTE="dkrustyklown"]

This is proof that gun bans accomplish nothing.

Planeforger

Not really, no. How many shootings happen in The Netherlands compared to similar-sized countries where guns are allowed? I'm guessing that it's nowhere near as many.

Finland, Norway or Sweden(I think all guns are legal in sweden even fully automatic ones)? I think the netherlands are beating them with their tally of 1.

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SUD123456

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#45 SUD123456
Member since 2007 • 7054 Posts

[QUOTE="SUD123456"]

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] id rather have the worst aiming person in the world have a gun on him on this situation as it is still far better than being completely and totally defenseless. secondly if that guy starts shooting and see 20 people pop out a gun he has no idea the guns are loaded or not and he must make a decision fire one more shot and die or lay down and surrender its basic stuff here. and those 20 guns could be empty and unloaded but he sure as hell would not know. see? a crazy man isnt going to go in and shoot down a mall if he knows the majority are armed because thats simply nuts one man with a gun doesnt take on a whole army. let me also ask you this...if you are a burglar are you going to rob the neighborhood that you know is a gun free zone and no one owns a gun or the one that has people that own guns? guns deter criminals is the bottom line. criminals want easy targets armed people are not easy targets. hell there is no reason in a free land the people should not be armed. any attempt to block gun ownership is a clear sign of a tyrant as only a tyrant would have any rational reason to rob me of my right to own a gun and carry it as a please. its for self defense against criminals and tyrants. plain and simple.BMD004

And yet the country with the largest amount of guns, particularly handguns has the highest per capita violent crime rate and the highest per capita murder rate. By far.

It is far to simplistic to argue that more guns make people safer.

As for your argument about tyrants :) it ismeaningless circular reasoning. I must have guns to protect myself from tyrants. Anyone who doesn't want me to have guns is a tyrant. Therefore, I must have guns both because I want them and because you don't want me to have them :) Unless you do want me to have them. bIt's a win win. Guns for everyone.

You might want to pause and ask yourself what is so broken with your society that you live in such fear that you feel guns are necessary?

What the hell? The country with the largest amount of guns per capita is Switzerland, and it has one of the LOWEST violent crime rates in the world. Secondly, there are countries like Mexico where guns are ILLEGAL, yet it is one of the most violent countries.

I didn't say guns per capita. I said total amount of guns.

Also, Switzerland is all about rifles issued to the militia. Those rifles are locked up in cases when not in use. They do not exist for defence against criminals. Nor do they exist for defense against their own gov't.

Meanwhile, I never said that the absence of guns automatically makes things safer. Indeed, I do believe I made it quite clear that the issue is whether your society is broken or not that matters. Quite clearly things are broken in Mexico's drug war areas. Also quite clearly having a gun in those areas is no defence.

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worlock77

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#46 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts
[QUOTE="EntropyWins"][QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="BMD004"] Except for guns. But I'm basing it on the fact that even the gun-happy United States requires you to pass tests and actually show shooting proficiency, and are required to keep your skills up in order to be allowed to carry a gun on your person. So IF the Netherlands would ever allow people to carry guns, one can safely assume that there would be restrictions in place (as there are in pretty much every single country). Just because guns are legal in a country doesn't mean there isn't regulation... even in the United States.

Thank you for that. I never realized that we have gun regulations. And, the point was, again, that shooting at a target in a range is different from shooting at a real human being in a high-pressure situation. Even most police officers will tell you that. You can have all the training you want, but when it comes to a real situation you never know'll how you'll react or how well your skills will necessarily hold up.

I'm willing to bet that there is a high correlation between people who can hit the bullseye of a target with their pistol and people who can hit their target in real life. You make it seem as though no matter how much training you have you won't be prepared to aim and hit a target in real life. You will somehow become a maniac and just start firing into the crowd hoping to hit the shooter. This is not the case. I'm pretty sure they teach you not to do that in gun classes as well.

Adrenaline, nerves, knowing that you'll be firing at a living person rather than a manufactured target, there's many differing factors that come into play in such a situation. It's not as simple as being the cowboy who can shoot the hat off the villain's head because you can nail every target every time at the practice range.
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Dogswithguns

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#47 Dogswithguns
Member since 2007 • 11359 Posts
damn, and I though Dutch people are cool....
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TheArGaia

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#48 TheArGaia
Member since 2011 • 629 Posts
damn, and I though Dutch people are cool....Dogswithguns
You can't blame a whole nation for one mans mistake.
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Dogswithguns

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#49 Dogswithguns
Member since 2007 • 11359 Posts
[QUOTE="Dogswithguns"]damn, and I though Dutch people are cool....TheArGaia
You can't blame a whole nation for one mans mistake.

You're right... most are nice, one crazy person gonna pop up someday somehow.
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kayoticdreamz

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#50 kayoticdreamz
Member since 2010 • 3347 Posts

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"][QUOTE="worlock77"] Some do, some don't. Would you be willing to stake your life on every gun owner in that situation being that skilled in that situation? Not to mention that shooting at target at a practice range is a hell of a lot different than shooting at a moving person in a high intensity real life situation.SUD123456

id rather have the worst aiming person in the world have a gun on him on this situation as it is still far better than being completely and totally defenseless. secondly if that guy starts shooting and see 20 people pop out a gun he has no idea the guns are loaded or not and he must make a decision fire one more shot and die or lay down and surrender its basic stuff here. and those 20 guns could be empty and unloaded but he sure as hell would not know. see? a crazy man isnt going to go in and shoot down a mall if he knows the majority are armed because thats simply nuts one man with a gun doesnt take on a whole army. let me also ask you this...if you are a burglar are you going to rob the neighborhood that you know is a gun free zone and no one owns a gun or the one that has people that own guns? guns deter criminals is the bottom line. criminals want easy targets armed people are not easy targets. hell there is no reason in a free land the people should not be armed. any attempt to block gun ownership is a clear sign of a tyrant as only a tyrant would have any rational reason to rob me of my right to own a gun and carry it as a please. its for self defense against criminals and tyrants. plain and simple.

And yet the country with the largest amount of guns, particularly handguns has the highest per capita violent crime rate and the highest per capita murder rate. By far.

It is far to simplistic to argue that more guns make people safer.

As for your argument about tyrants :) it ismeaningless circular reasoning. I must have guns to protect myself from tyrants. Anyone who doesn't want me to have guns is a tyrant. Therefore, I must have guns both because I want them and because you don't want me to have them :) Unless you do want me to have them. bIt's a win win. Guns for everyone.

You might want to pause and ask yourself what is so broken with your society that you live in such fear that you feel guns are necessary?

ask yourself this why are you so paranoid as to trust your fellow law abiding citizens with guns to protect themselves? maybe its you who cant be trusted with a gun not i. ive owned guns for years but somehow i know its crazy talk have managed to not shoot anyone with them.