harry truman's use of the atomic bomb (1945)

do you agree with his decision to drop the atomic bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki?

i sure do, because the hundreds of thousands of american soldiers that would have died in the land invasion of Japan would have been worse.  Also, it shortened the war (most likely) a few years. 

I just studied that in history last week in school and i agree i saved about 500,000 american lifes. StarFoxCOM

But how many lives were lost because of it? That's the other side of the issue.

Its a difficult thing to argue really, of course the soldiers were not going to give up as they were taught not to, however, was killing that many innocents really neccessary?Samwel_X

Those "innocents" would have fought to the death if American troops landed in Japan.  I forget the name of the island, but the army issued grenades to every Japanese citizen to use against U.S. troops, and they did. 

[QUOTE="StarFoxCOM"]I just studied that in history last week in school and i agree i saved about 500,000 american lifes. Articuno76

But how many lives were lost because of it? That's the other side of the issue. 

[QUOTE="StarFoxCOM"]I just studied that in history last week in school and i agree i saved about 500,000 american lifes. Articuno76

But how many lives were lost because of it? That's the other side of the issue.

Just as much as if U.S. troops invaded.  Plus the troops them selves. 

[QUOTE="Samwel_X"]Its a difficult thing to argue really, of course the soldiers were not going to give up as they were taught not to, however, was killing that many innocents really neccessary?bacon_is_sweet

Those "innocents" would have fought to the death if American troops landed in Japan. I forget the name of the island, but the army issued grenades to every Japanese citizen to use against U.S. troops, and they did.

[QUOTE="StarFoxCOM"]I just studied that in history last week in school and i agree i saved about 500,000 american lifes. Articuno76

But how many lives were lost because of it? That's the other side of the issue.

People think an american life > a japanese or any other person's life.  

While it's true that Japan was engaged in negotiations it was likely they were willing to stall and drag out the conflict in the hopes the U.S. would lose it's resolve and agree to a more favorable cease fire. Archon_basic

[QUOTE="bacon_is_sweet"]

[QUOTE="Samwel_X"]Its a difficult thing to argue really, of course the soldiers were not going to give up as they were taught not to, however, was killing that many innocents really neccessary?quiglythegreat

Those "innocents" would have fought to the death if American troops landed in Japan. I forget the name of the island, but the army issued grenades to every Japanese citizen to use against U.S. troops, and they did.

Dude I just told you. I saw it on the history channel. The Japanese military, in preparation for an American assault, gave its citizens weapons to use against the troops. They would then hide. When a U.S. troop came upon them the citizen would attack them. And Japan has alot more citizens then a small island. Its their belief system. They fight to the death. And those "peace treaties" were too in favor of the Japanese.

And those "peace treaties" were too in favor of the Japanese.  
bacon_is_sweet

Dude I just told you. I saw it on the history channel. The Japanese military, in preparation for an American assault, gave its citizens weapons to use against the troops. They would then hide. When a U.S. troop came upon them the citizen would attack them. And Japan has alot more citizens. Its their belief system. They fight to the death. And those "peace treaties" were too in favor of the Japanese.

bacon_is_sweet

It was, unfortunately, necessary.LJS9502_basic

I most certainly do agree because If we did not drop the atomic bomb, the Japanese would not have surrendered353535355353535

do you agree with his decision to drop the atomic bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki?

i sure do, because the hundreds of thousands of american soldiers that would have died in the land invasion of Japan would have been worse.  Also, it shortened the war (most likely) a few years. 

comrade_sniperr

US casualties would not have been in the hundreds of thousands had the US invaded Japan by land. By 1945, the Japanese military was so hard-pressed to have a standing army in the mainland that they were forced to resort to using females to form a pseudo-citizen militia. You have to realize that most of the Japanese regular army were not in the mainland but in other places throughout the Asia-Pacific. Did the people in this citizen militia at least have firearms? Nope. Bamboo sticks. We're talking about a makeshift citizen militia consisting of malnourished, sparsely trained FEMALES with bamboo sticks up against American male soldiers who are well-fed, well-trained, and packing M1 Rifles and Thompson submachine guns. Please... don't give me BS about how "Dropping the atomic bomb would save young American lives that would otherwise be lost in a land invasion of Japan." There are military statisticians and historians that predict that had the US attacked Japan by land, American casualties would have numbered at worst in the ten thousands - 10,000s

The only reason why the US dropped the atomic bombs was because they had won the war in Europe and wanted to bring the War in the Pacific to an end quickly. However, instead of taking the long and time-consuming course of action which would not result in high casualties, they choose the quick and easy course of action that would not result in high casualties. Either way, the US would NOT suffer high casualties.

[QUOTE="bacon_is_sweet"]

Dude I just told you. I saw it on the history channel. The Japanese military, in preparation for an American assault, gave its citizens weapons to use against the troops. They would then hide. When a U.S. troop came upon them the citizen would attack them. And Japan has alot more citizens. Its their belief system. They fight to the death. And those "peace treaties" were too in favor of the Japanese.

quiglythegreat

[QUOTE="bacon_is_sweet"]

Dude I just told you. I saw it on the history channel. The Japanese military, in preparation for an American assault, gave its citizens weapons to use against the troops. They would then hide. When a U.S. troop came upon them the citizen would attack them. And Japan has alot more citizens. Its their belief system. They fight to the death. And those "peace treaties" were too in favor of the Japanese.

quiglythegreat

Maybe the interviews of the people they had on the show I watched.  They exclaimed how they were told to do this and that they were to fulfill their honer.  And the interviewee stated that everyone was ready to do his or her part. 

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="bacon_is_sweet"]

Dude I just told you. I saw it on the history channel. The Japanese military, in preparation for an American assault, gave its citizens weapons to use against the troops. They would then hide. When a U.S. troop came upon them the citizen would attack them. And Japan has alot more citizens. Its their belief system. They fight to the death. And those "peace treaties" were too in favor of the Japanese.

bacon_is_sweet

Maybe the interviews of the people they had on the show I watched. They exclaimed how they were told to do this and that they were to fulfill their honer. And the interviewee stated that everyone was ready to do his or her part.

the reason that it is believed that every man, woman and child would fight to the death is because in every major battle in the pacific, the japanese almost never surrendered. On average, we might take 10-20 POWs?353535355353535

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="bacon_is_sweet"]

[QUOTE="Samwel_X"]Its a difficult thing to argue really, of course the soldiers were not going to give up as they were taught not to, however, was killing that many innocents really neccessary?bacon_is_sweet

Those "innocents" would have fought to the death if American troops landed in Japan. I forget the name of the island, but the army issued grenades to every Japanese citizen to use against U.S. troops, and they did.

Dude I just told you. I saw it on the history channel. The Japanese military, in preparation for an American assault, gave its citizens weapons to use against the troops. They would then hide. When a U.S. troop came upon them the citizen would attack them. And Japan has alot more citizens then a small island. Its their belief system. They fight to the death. And those "peace treaties" were too in favor of the Japanese.

You are wrong. The Japanese military gave grenades to citizens for the purposes of commiting suicide if US troops came upon them, NOT to attack US soliders. The Japanese citizens - the island you are referring to is Okinawa - were told by the military and government through leaflets and announcements (propoganda) that if they were captured by US soldiers, they would be brutalized and murdered. Instead of being captured, the best thing they could do was use the grenade to commit suicide. Get your facts straight and don't try to distort things you see on the history channel to suit your own arguments. 

remember, bamboo sticks are quite powerful.

They can easily beat a guy packing a machine gun

[QUOTE="Archon_basic"] While it's true that Japan was engaged in negotiations it was likely they were willing to stall and drag out the conflict in the hopes the U.S. would lose it's resolve and agree to a more favorable cease fire. quiglythegreat

You make it sound like Japan was some kind of victim here, but don't forget that they attacked the U.S. first, that they invaded China and committed countless atrocities there, and that they were not willing to accept an unconditional surrender until after two atomic bombs had been dropped on them. With all of the immense loss of life and money the U.S. suffered from the war in Japan an unconditional surrender was the only course of action, and unfortunately it took two atomic bombs to obtain that. We could not afford to let Japan keep it's military and current government and risk having to fight the same war again later on. After all World Ward 2 had cost the world there had to be unconditional surrenders on the part of Germany and Japan to ensure the war was completely over and would not resurface. So don't say we should have played nice and not bombed Japan, or given them a better treaty so we could avoid using atomic weapons. The only possible justification for not using the atomic weapons was if Japan was actually close to an unconditional surrender without the use of further force, and from what I've studied on the subject the evidence seems to suggest that they were not.

If it wasn't dropped the war would of continued till the 50's. The Japanese had 8mill more ready for the invasion of Japan, and none of them would surrender.Theempire30

[QUOTE="bacon_is_sweet"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="bacon_is_sweet"]

Dude I just told you. I saw it on the history channel. The Japanese military, in preparation for an American assault, gave its citizens weapons to use against the troops. They would then hide. When a U.S. troop came upon them the citizen would attack them. And Japan has alot more citizens. Its their belief system. They fight to the death. And those "peace treaties" were too in favor of the Japanese.

quiglythegreat

Maybe the interviews of the people they had on the show I watched. They exclaimed how they were told to do this and that they were to fulfill their honer. And the interviewee stated that everyone was ready to do his or her part.

You obviously know little on the old ancient belief systems of Japan. Jonestown was a select group of people, I'm talking about the views and beliefs of an entire culture.  They would have done it cause thats what they believed, regardless if their a woman or child.  They were hardly fundamentalists, they were ordinary citizens who had experienced and done the things I described above.

[QUOTE="comrade_sniperr"]

do you agree with his decision to drop the atomic bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki?

i sure do, because the hundreds of thousands of american soldiers that would have died in the land invasion of Japan would have been worse. Also, it shortened the war (most likely) a few years.

portej

US casualties would not have been in the hundreds of thousands had the US invaded Japan by land. By 1945, the Japanese military was so hard-pressed to have a standing army in the mainland that they were forced to resort to using females to form a pseudo-citizen militia. You have to realize that most of the Japanese regular army were not in the mainland but in other places throughout the Asia-Pacific. Did the people in this citizen militia at least have firearms? Nope. Bamboo sticks. We're talking about a makeshift citizen militia consisting of malnourished, sparsely trained FEMALES with bamboo sticks up against American male soldiers who are well-fed, well-trained, and packing M1 Rifles and Thompson submachine guns. Please... don't give me BS about how "Dropping the atomic bomb would save young American lives that would otherwise be lost in a land invasion of Japan." There are military statisticians and historians that predict that had the US attacked Japan by land, American casualties would have numbered at worst in the ten thousands - 10,000s

The only reason why the US dropped the atomic bombs was because they had won the war in Europe and wanted to bring the War in the Pacific to an end quickly. However, instead of taking the long and time-consuming course of action which would not result in high casualties, they choose the quick and easy course of action that would not result in high casualties. Either way, the US would NOT suffer high casualties.

Bingo....it was not necessary.  

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="Archon_basic"] While it's true that Japan was engaged in negotiations it was likely they were willing to stall and drag out the conflict in the hopes the U.S. would lose it's resolve and agree to a more favorable cease fire. Archon_basic

You make it sound like Japan was some kind of victim here, but don't forget that they attacked the U.S. first, that they invaded China and committed countless atrocities there, and that they were not willing to accept an unconditional surrender until after two atomic bombs had been dropped on them. With all of the immense loss of life and money the U.S. suffered from the war in Japan an unconditional surrender was the only course of action, and unfortunately it took two atomic bombs to obtain that. We could not afford to let Japan keep it's military and current government and risk having to fight the same war again later on. After all World Ward 2 had cost the world there had to be unconditional surrenders on the part of Germany and Japan to ensure the war was completely over and would not resurface. So don't say we should have played nice and not bombed Japan, or given them a better treaty so we could avoid using atomic weapons. The only possible justification for not using the atomic weapons was if Japan was actually close to an unconditional surrender without the use of further force, and from what I've studied on the subject the evidence seems to suggest that they were not.

Japan would have never attacked the United States at Pearl Harbor if the United States didn't place economic sanctions and embargos on Japan. The United States brought it upon themselves. Though I have to admit... the Japanese chose to mess with a country that was way out of their league both economically and militarily.

[QUOTE="bacon_is_sweet"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="bacon_is_sweet"]

[QUOTE="Samwel_X"]Its a difficult thing to argue really, of course the soldiers were not going to give up as they were taught not to, however, was killing that many innocents really neccessary?portej

Those "innocents" would have fought to the death if American troops landed in Japan. I forget the name of the island, but the army issued grenades to every Japanese citizen to use against U.S. troops, and they did.

Dude I just told you. I saw it on the history channel. The Japanese military, in preparation for an American assault, gave its citizens weapons to use against the troops. They would then hide. When a U.S. troop came upon them the citizen would attack them. And Japan has alot more citizens then a small island. Its their belief system. They fight to the death. And those "peace treaties" were too in favor of the Japanese.

You are wrong. The Japanese military gave grenades to citizens for the purposes of commiting suicide if US troops came upon them, NOT to attack US soliders. The Japanese citizens - the island you are referring to is Okinawa - were told by the military and government through leaflets and announcements (propoganda) that if they were captured by US soldiers, they would be brutalized and murdered. Instead of being captured, the best thing they could do was use the grenade to commit suicide. Get your facts straight and don't try to distort things you see on the history channel to suit your own arguments.

I'm not:|   Yes it is true they were told to committee suicide over capture, but they were also told take out soldiers if possible, which they did.

I'm familar with the historical facts of the circumstances of the end of the Pacific conflict. But thanks anyway.

You make it sound like Japan was some kind of victim here, but don't forget that they attacked the U.S. first, that they invaded China and committed countless atrocities there, and that they were not willing to accept an unconditional surrender until after two atomic bombs had been dropped on them. With all of the immense loss of life and money the U.S. suffered from the war in Japan an unconditional surrender was the only course of action, and unfortunately it took two atomic bombs to obtain that. We could not afford to let Japan keep it's military and current government and risk having to fight the same war again later on. After all World Ward 2 had cost the world there had to be unconditional surrenders on the part of Germany and Japan to ensure the war was completely over and would not resurface. So don't say we should have played nice and not bombed Japan, or given them a better treaty so we could avoid using atomic weapons. The only possible justification for not using the atomic weapons was if Japan was actually close to an unconditional surrender without the use of further force, and from what I've studied on the subject the evidence seems to suggest that they were not.

Archon_basic

Im writing a paper on this now actually...

Basically: the US was in a mess in Europe with the soviets trying to rebuild countries. Soviets wanted them to be more communist, and we wanted them to be capitalist and whatnot.

The Soviets had already said they were going to go into Japan, even though we said we did not need their help anymore. Alot of people thought that we could have ended it with negotiation, but you cant be sure.

So basically Truman didnt have much time before the soviets got there, and there would be a whole new mess in asia over rebuilding countries. So it was pretty definate to end the war quickly, which is what he needed.

Edit: and it was a negotiating tool with the USSR 

You obviously know little on the old ancient belief systems of Japan. Jonestown was a select group of people, I'm talking about the views and beliefs of an entire culture. They would have done it cause thats what they believed, regardless if their a woman or child. They were hardly fundamentalists, they were ordinary citizens who had experienced and done the things I described above.bacon_is_sweet

[QUOTE="Theempire30"]If it wasn't dropped the war would of continued till the 50's. The Japanese had 8mill more ready for the invasion of Japan, and none of them would surrender.353535355353535

There were millions of Japs left and well trained in case of a Japan invasion, eventually the other Allied countries would of pulled out because of so many loses and somehow japan would of gained more Allies. The U.S would of been fighting by it self. And if it dint last till the 50's It would of taken at least 3 years to take Japan and millions of marines.

[QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="bacon_is_sweet"][QUOTE="quiglythegreat"][QUOTE="bacon_is_sweet"]

Dude I just told you. I saw it on the history channel. The Japanese military, in preparation for an American assault, gave its citizens weapons to use against the troops. They would then hide. When a U.S. troop came upon them the citizen would attack them. And Japan has alot more citizens. Its their belief system. They fight to the death. And those "peace treaties" were too in favor of the Japanese.

bacon_is_sweet

Maybe the interviews of the people they had on the show I watched. They exclaimed how they were told to do this and that they were to fulfill their honer. And the interviewee stated that everyone was ready to do his or her part.

You obviously know little on the old ancient belief systems of Japan. Jonestown was a select group of people, I'm talking about the views and beliefs of an entire culture. They would have done it cause thats what they believed, regardless if their a woman or child. They were hardly fundamentalists, they were ordinary citizens who had experienced and done the things I described above.

[QUOTE="353535355353535"][QUOTE="Theempire30"]If it wasn't dropped the war would of continued till the 50's. The Japanese had 8mill more ready for the invasion of Japan, and none of them would surrender.Theempire30

There were millions of Japs left and well trained in case of a Japan invasion, eventually the other Allied countries would of pulled out because of so many loses and somehow japan would of gained more Allies. The U.S would of been fighting by it self. And if it dint last till the 50's It would of taken at least 3 years to take Japan and millions of marines.