Healthcare Insurance companies ration care! But somehow single payer is evil???

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Ultimas_Blade

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#1 Ultimas_Blade
Member since 2004 • 3671 Posts

"Got a pre-existing condition? Naw we can't cover that."

"Filled out your paperwork incorrectly? Don't worry, we'll get ya next time."

"Sorry but you didn't go to the right doctor."

I don't know about you, but someone's life should not be valued against a dollar. Tax the hell outta me, if it goes to saving someone's life, take it.

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duxup

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#2 duxup
Member since 2002 • 43443 Posts
Yes health care rationing already exists.
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clyde46

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#3 clyde46
Member since 2005 • 49061 Posts

I like my healthcare where I can just walk in, get seen and walk back out again. No paper work, no insurance worries. Hell being a student I dont even pay tax!

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theone86

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#4 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

I like my healthcare where I can just walk in, get seen and walk back out again. No paper work, no insurance worries. Hell being a student I dont even pay tax!

clyde46

Clyde, can you find me a British bride so I can live in a country with socialized medicien without going through all this?

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redstorm72

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#5 redstorm72
Member since 2008 • 4646 Posts
Agree with TC. I believe that every nation has a duty to its citizens protect them health wise. That way, they can continue to be contributing members of society. I gladly pay extra taxes in order to insure the health of me and my fellow countrymen.
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Democratik

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#6 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts
Yes health care rationing already exists. duxup
Indeed. But thats not the point. BE MORE EMOTIONAL!!!!
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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#7 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

I dont think anyone ever said single payer is evil. Nor did anyone state that they like the current health insurance companies. Unfortunately, reforming health care in the US means more than just reforming the payer system.

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Godless_Liberal

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#8 Godless_Liberal
Member since 2009 • 49 Posts

True

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Acemaster27

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#9 Acemaster27
Member since 2004 • 4482 Posts
There's no such thing as free lunch, and as far as health care is concerned we don't have infinite resources, and some rationing must take place. However, if we didn't give such a large portion of money to insurance companies and lawyers, then our system might be able to improve. Universal health care is one attempt at that, although I welcome discussion on alternate methods of reorganizing the health system in the United States.
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Blue-Sky

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#10 Blue-Sky
Member since 2005 • 10381 Posts

What's evil is a public option. We socialize healthcare, and our entire economic environment will collapse. Next thing you know our government will start running our police, postal, and fire departments. What are we? Canada?

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Ultimas_Blade

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#11 Ultimas_Blade
Member since 2004 • 3671 Posts

What's evil is a public option. We socialize healthcare, and our entire economic environment will collapse. Next thing you know our government will start running our police, postal, and fire departments. What are we? Canada?

Blue-Sky
:lol: I started to believe that you were serious for a second there.
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hiphops_savior

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#12 hiphops_savior
Member since 2007 • 8535 Posts
Yep, public health care is evil, just like public education, post office, library, fire departments, and the police.
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LanceA63

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#13 LanceA63
Member since 2003 • 417 Posts
you don't believe that Medicare is socialized healthcare?
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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#14 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts
Yep, public health care is evil, just like public education, post office, library, fire departments, and the police.hiphops_savior
Some of those are bad examples. Our public education system is one of the worse in the world. And the post office is hemorrhaging billions.
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Engrish_Major

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#15 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

you don't believe that Medicare is socialized healthcare?LanceA63
Get government out of my Medicare!

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muthsera666

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#16 muthsera666
Member since 2005 • 13271 Posts
I don't know about you, but someone's life should not be valued against a dollar. Tax the hell outta me, if it goes to saving someone's life, take it.Ultimas_Blade
Everything has a monetary value, even life. Just look at death benefits or life insurance. Believing otherwise is naive.
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Doctor-McNinja

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#17 Doctor-McNinja
Member since 2009 • 1515 Posts

What's evil is a public option. We socialize healthcare, and our entire economic environment will collapse. Next thing you know our government will start running our police, postal, and fire departments. What are we? Canada?

Blue-Sky
I was so close to quoting that with puzzled rage, then i realised you were obviously kidding. :P
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linkthewindow

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#18 linkthewindow
Member since 2005 • 5654 Posts
[QUOTE="Blue-Sky"]

What's evil is a public option. We socialize healthcare, and our entire economic environment will collapse. Next thing you know our government will start running our police, postal, and fire departments. What are we? Canada?

Doctor-McNinja
I was so close to quoting that with puzzled rage, then i realised you were obviously kidding. :P

The sig gave it away :P Anyway, does anyone notice a pattern in this data?.
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tocklestein2005

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#19 tocklestein2005
Member since 2008 • 5532 Posts

I really don't care how they fix it, just fix it and make the greedy ****s at the top show some compassion.

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limpbizkit818

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#20 limpbizkit818
Member since 2004 • 15044 Posts
[QUOTE="hiphops_savior"]Yep, public health care is evil, just like public education, post office, library, fire departments, and the police.sonicare
Some of those are bad examples. Our public education system is one of the worse in the world. And the post office is hemorrhaging billions.

Not to mention that the federal government does not run the fire departments, or the police force, or any local libraries (although they do give some funding). Very poor example.
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hiphops_savior

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#21 hiphops_savior
Member since 2007 • 8535 Posts
[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="hiphops_savior"]Yep, public health care is evil, just like public education, post office, library, fire departments, and the police.limpbizkit818
Some of those are bad examples. Our public education system is one of the worse in the world. And the post office is hemorrhaging billions.

Not to mention that the federal government does not run the fire departments, or the police force, or any local libraries (although they do give some funding). Very poor example.

Maybe, but the point remains that America needs to take better care of their citizens, and even though the fire department isn't run by the Federal, it is still under municipal control, which is still run by the public servants citizens elected. Making education private isn't going to solve anything other than making America even more illiterate and make it easier for the elite to oppress everyone else. I wouldn't feel comfortable if a private corporation is in charge of post service and abuses their rights, nor would I feel better if the police are funded by a big corporation.
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Democratik

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#22 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts
[QUOTE="hiphops_savior"][QUOTE="limpbizkit818"][QUOTE="sonicare"] Some of those are bad examples. Our public education system is one of the worse in the world. And the post office is hemorrhaging billions.

Not to mention that the federal government does not run the fire departments, or the police force, or any local libraries (although they do give some funding). Very poor example.

Maybe, but the point remains that America needs to take better care of their citizens, and even though the fire department isn't run by the Federal, it is still under municipal control, which is still run by the public servants citizens elected. Making education private isn't going to solve anything other than making America even more illiterate and make it easier for the elite to oppress everyone else. I wouldn't feel comfortable if a private corporation is in charge of post service and abuses their rights, nor would I feel better if the police are funded by a big corporation.

Saying that the reason our education system fails is because its public is example of how bad our education really is. Finland, Japan, Norway etc all have public education and its top notch.
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#23 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts
[QUOTE="hiphops_savior"]Yep, public health care is evil, just like public education, post office, library, fire departments, and the police.sonicare
Some of those are bad examples. Our public education system is one of the worse in the world. And the post office is hemorrhaging billions.

But when you look at those education systems that are better than ours, they are also for the most part, public education systems. Just because something is public doesn't mean it is necessarily the devil, and just because something is private doesn't mean it is necessarily heavenly, and vice versa. Yeah, maybe our public education system is bad, but that doesn't mean the general concept of public education is a bad one. By drawing the opposite conclusion, you create a false dichotomy.
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EMOEVOLUTION

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#24 EMOEVOLUTION
Member since 2008 • 8998 Posts

I don't know..

but there is really nothing preventing the USA government from providing health care to everyone.. and at a high quality. except people who want to horde money for no reason.

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Ontain

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#25 Ontain
Member since 2005 • 25501 Posts
[QUOTE="hiphops_savior"]Yep, public health care is evil, just like public education, post office, library, fire departments, and the police.sonicare
Some of those are bad examples. Our public education system is one of the worse in the world. And the post office is hemorrhaging billions.

our education system is worse now because of many more issues than government control. it has just as much to do with the parents and students. the ones better are mainly public so i'd say it's our culture that is the cause. (glorified stupidity and mediocrity in the masses as well and parents having less time) the post office loses money because it's still ridiculously cheap to send letters and they provide great benefits that is now out of sync with what the private sector offers. sad how the private sector has gotten so much worse in terms of health insurance plans, retirement etc.
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Pixel-Pirate

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#26 Pixel-Pirate
Member since 2009 • 10771 Posts

Hey another one of these threads. The soul crushing apathy of the last healthcare thread didn't kill my faith in humanity enough, I guess.

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nitsud_19

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#27 nitsud_19
Member since 2004 • 2519 Posts

What's evil is a public option. We socialize healthcare, and our entire economic environment will collapse. Next thing you know our government will start running our police, postal, and fire departments. What are we? Canada?

Blue-Sky

Canada was out of the recession long ago and your postal service is government run. Your idea of Canada seems very flawed.

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nitsud_19

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#28 nitsud_19
Member since 2004 • 2519 Posts

[QUOTE="Blue-Sky"]

What's evil is a public option. We socialize healthcare, and our entire economic environment will collapse. Next thing you know our government will start running our police, postal, and fire departments. What are we? Canada?

Doctor-McNinja

I was so close to quoting that with puzzled rage, then i realised you were obviously kidding. :P

ahaha now i gotchya, just a bit tired on my lunch break here.

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Democratik

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#29 Democratik
Member since 2009 • 662 Posts

I don't know..

but there is really nothing preventing the USA government from providing health care to everyone.. and at a high quality. except people who want to horde money for no reason.

EMOEVOLUTION
wouldnt you think someone who believes in over population would want a system that covers the few?
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wstfld

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#30 wstfld
Member since 2008 • 6375 Posts

I don't know..

but there is really nothing preventing the USA government from providing health care to everyone.. and at a high quality. except people who want to horde money for no reason.

EMOEVOLUTION
They're not hording money, they just think that others don't deserve to "steal" their "hard-earned" money. People are under the impression that being rich only comes from hard work, and being poor only comes from being lazy. They also seem to be under the impression that a black kid born in Detroit without a father has the same chance as a rich white kid going to private school in Orange County.
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mrbojangles25

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#31 mrbojangles25  Online
Member since 2005 • 60737 Posts

"Got a pre-existing condition? Naw we can't cover that."

"Filled out your paperwork incorrectly? Don't worry, we'll get ya next time."

"Sorry but you didn't go to the right doctor."

I don't know about you, but someone's life should not be valued against a dollar. Tax the hell outta me, if it goes to saving someone's life, take it.

Ultimas_Blade

yes, the fact we rely on companies driven solely by monetary gain for our well-being and, in many cases, our lives, is simply frightening. It never ceases to amaze me that this is allowed

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pecanin

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#32 pecanin
Member since 2008 • 863 Posts

I like my healthcare where I can just walk in, get seen and walk back out again. No paper work, no insurance worries. Hell being a student I dont even pay tax!

clyde46

This statement is what i am going to use as refusal to pay NHS one penny :D

Clyde old boy thank you :D

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Godless_Liberal

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#33 Godless_Liberal
Member since 2009 • 49 Posts

There's no such thing as free lunch, and as far as health care is concerned we don't have infinite resources, and some rationing must take place. However, if we didn't give such a large portion of money to insurance companies and lawyers, then our system might be able to improve. Universal health care is one attempt at that, although I welcome discussion on alternate methods of reorganizing the health system in the United States.Acemaster27

But single payer or the OP in no way implied that health insurance would be free, what we're saying is that it should be covered by the government as spreading the pool of money to every resident would result in a lower cost for every resident while covering almost the entire population (with the exception of illegal immigrants and temporary immigrants of course, although i personally favor letting the states decide who is covered in their single payer plans, hypothetically speaking.) not only that but there is significant data out there from various studies that suggests that single payer is more efficient, and cost effective. We don't need to go more in debt for single payer, we could fund it right now and end up saving money.

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aransom

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#34 aransom
Member since 2002 • 7408 Posts

"Got a pre-existing condition? Naw we can't cover that."

Ultimas_Blade

Does that mean you should be able to buy fire insurance after your house burned down?

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#35 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"]

"Got a pre-existing condition? Naw we can't cover that."

aransom

Does that mean you should be able to buy fire insurance after your house burned down?

Yeah, let's not allow people who are going to need health care get the health care they need.
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Engrish_Major

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#36 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

Does that mean you should be able to buy fire insurance after your house burned down?

aransom
Hence the requirement that everyone has insurance. So then we won't have that problem.
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coolbeans90

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#37 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="aransom"]

[QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"]

"Got a pre-existing condition? Naw we can't cover that."

-Sun_Tzu-

Does that mean you should be able to buy fire insurance after your house burned down?

Yeah, let's not allow people who are going to need health care get the health care they need.

You mean give to them without cost...

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theone86

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#38 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="aransom"]Does that mean you should be able to buy fire insurance after your house burned down?

coolbeans90

Yeah, let's not allow people who are going to need health care get the health care they need.

You mean give to them without cost...

Ummmm...taxes?

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aransom

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#39 aransom
Member since 2002 • 7408 Posts

[QUOTE="aransom"]

[QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"]

"Got a pre-existing condition? Naw we can't cover that."

-Sun_Tzu-

Does that mean you should be able to buy fire insurance after your house burned down?

Yeah, let's not allow people who are going to need health care get the health care they need.

People are already allowed to get all the health care they need. All they have to do is walk into an emergency room, and the hospital is forced to take care of them.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#40 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="aransom"]Does that mean you should be able to buy fire insurance after your house burned down?

coolbeans90

Yeah, let's not allow people who are going to need health care get the health care they need.

You mean give to them without cost...

No, that is not what I mean. The health care they would receive would still be paid for...
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theone86

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#41 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="aransom"]Does that mean you should be able to buy fire insurance after your house burned down?

aransom

Yeah, let's not allow people who are going to need health care get the health care they need.

People are already allowed to get all the health care they need. All they have to do is walk into an emergency room, and the hospital is forced to take care of them.

It would be cheaper for the taxpayers to foot the bill for a single=payer system than have he uninsured use the emergency room all the time.

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coolbeans90

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#42 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Yeah, let's not allow people who are going to need health care get the health care they need.-Sun_Tzu-

You mean give to them without cost...

No, that is not what I mean. The health care they would receive would still be paid for...

But not necessarily by them. This is the main issue that I take with the single payer system. Being a healthy male in my late teens, I neither want to be required to pay into a system that I do not need, nor pay for the health expenses of others without my consent.

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coolbeans90

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#43 coolbeans90
Member since 2009 • 21305 Posts

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Yeah, let's not allow people who are going to need health care get the health care they need.theone86

You mean give to them without cost...

Ummmm...taxes?

I meant by the beneficiary.

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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#44 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts
[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="hiphops_savior"]Yep, public health care is evil, just like public education, post office, library, fire departments, and the police.-Sun_Tzu-
Some of those are bad examples. Our public education system is one of the worse in the world. And the post office is hemorrhaging billions.

But when you look at those education systems that are better than ours, they are also for the most part, public education systems. Just because something is public doesn't mean it is necessarily the devil, and just because something is private doesn't mean it is necessarily heavenly, and vice versa. Yeah, maybe our public education system is bad, but that doesn't mean the general concept of public education is a bad one. By drawing the opposite conclusion, you create a false dichotomy.

I never stated that being public is a horrible thing. My point just illustrated that simply being public versus private does not neccessarily translate into being better.
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aransom

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#45 aransom
Member since 2002 • 7408 Posts

[QUOTE="aransom"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Yeah, let's not allow people who are going to need health care get the health care they need.theone86

People are already allowed to get all the health care they need. All they have to do is walk into an emergency room, and the hospital is forced to take care of them.

It would be cheaper for the taxpayers to foot the bill for a single=payer system than have he uninsured use the emergency room all the time.

It would be even cheaper for taxpayers for people to take care of themselves instead of expecting other people to provide them with the things they can't or won't provide for themselves.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#46 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="aransom"]Does that mean you should be able to buy fire insurance after your house burned down?

aransom

Yeah, let's not allow people who are going to need health care get the health care they need.

People are already allowed to get all the health care they need. All they have to do is walk into an emergency room, and the hospital is forced to take care of them.

The emergency room should be for...emergencies. It really can't and shouldn't be used for primary care.
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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#47 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Yeah, let's not allow people who are going to need health care get the health care they need.-Sun_Tzu-

You mean give to them without cost...

No, that is not what I mean. The health care they would receive would still be paid for...

I think one of the big fears that people in the health care industry have is that government control will mean they may lose their jobs or be forced to accept much lower compensation. If you simply replace private payers with the government, I doubt anyone would have any problem with that. There is little love for most health insurance companies. However, you will wipe out that industry and its resulting jobs. However, government control likely means reduced incentives and reimbursements to health care practitioners, researchers, and pharm and medical industries. Currently 50% of all the medical advancements and new medical tech in the world come from one country - the US. Unfortunately, we pay the premium for that as in a sense we are subsidizing the world. That progress would certainly be jeopardized if the incentive for it was taken away. However, you could make an argument that we dont need to make as many advancements in the field of medicine, we need to treat those we have now. Secondly, health care providers are all private. As private companies in a sense, they have a bottom line. If you drastically cut or change their reimbursements, many of them will fail. Having less providers is not a good thing. So basically, the government would have to not only take over the payer system, but also take over the providers and employ them directly - like most other countries with socialized system.
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-Sun_Tzu-

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#48 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

You mean give to them without cost...

coolbeans90

No, that is not what I mean. The health care they would receive would still be paid for...

But not necessarily by them. This is the main issue that I take with the single payer system. Being a healthy male in my late teens, I neither want to be required to pay into a system that I do not need, nor pay for the health expenses of others without my consent.

Yes it will necessarily be paid by them, and whomever else is insured by the same insurer. That is how all forms of insurance work.
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aransom

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#49 aransom
Member since 2002 • 7408 Posts

[QUOTE="aransom"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Yeah, let's not allow people who are going to need health care get the health care they need.-Sun_Tzu-

People are already allowed to get all the health care they need. All they have to do is walk into an emergency room, and the hospital is forced to take care of them.

The emergency room should be for...emergencies. It really can't and shouldn't be used for primary care.

But if you need health care, you can go there and they won't turn you away. Heck, they can't even ask you if you're an illegal alien.

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#50 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts
[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

You mean give to them without cost...

No, that is not what I mean. The health care they would receive would still be paid for...

But not necessarily by them. This is the main issue that I take with the single payer system. Being a healthy male in my late teens, I neither want to be required to pay into a system that I do not need, nor pay for the health expenses of others without my consent.

That's the trouble with health insurance though. The healthy subsidize the sick. If everyone of your condition payed into the system, insurance rates would actually drop. But young healthy people usually gamble and take the risk that they wont get sick. However, it is mandatory that you buy car insurance in most states. So, requiring people to buy health insurance is not unprecedented.