I don't understand social progressives (USA-centric, but Europeans can join in!)

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peter1191

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#1 peter1191
Member since 2005 • 591 Posts

What makes them think they are "progessive?" Do you think the legalization of drug use as not been tried before? Do you think that give women abortions now is some sort of liberation, when it has been going on for centuries? Do you think homosexuals are finally being freed, when the Greeks and the Romans (to a lesser extent) accepted same-sex relationships (to a smaller extent, aka before marriage)? Do you guys think (and I'm speaking to social progressives here, not Democrats, but social progressives, since I prefer a more centrist economic policy) that these "new" ideas are the crux of human development? Take the example of women's rights. Women were given equal treatment by many societies and even central figures (like Jesus for example), yet when society settles on a particular idea (in this case, Aristotle's theory of women being the form and man the substance, a huge influence in medeval Europe) they change all the rules to suit their beliefs. Likewise many of you think that this is it: all these changes will be for the better, and humanity will be freed from prejudices, wrongs of the past, and idiocy of the "less developed/less intelligent" humans that came before us. Yet we all see that humans reiterate the same tired old ideas over and over again, in a never ending circle, refusing to live simple lives, but always making new movements, claiming new modes of thought, believing in some new way of life. Take the recent issue of a prom being closed over a lesbian student. Is she showing off? It is a possibility: school girls, to attract boys, often act in sensual manners with other girls. But that is beside the point: so she is gay apparently, and as all of the leaders of this movement expound, these people need equal rights, because their love is equal to that of a heterosexual. Forget the impossibility of genetic factors predisposing one to homosexuality. Forget the abandonment of the purpose of marriage(family unit based on love, key word being "family" or one's own offsprings). Forget that nature predisposes man to be man and women to be women, forget all that. We decide sexuality. Lol and social progressives imagine that their ideas are fresh. Well, I can tell you this: Greeks had their time, but their philosophies passed away. Likewise, consider your philosophies like a drug: you get people excited, get peopled aboard the idea, but when they try it out and enjoy its initial effects, they, after addiction, regret their actions. I'm not saying we should write off, for example, homosexuals: they have feelings, and we should determine scientifically why those feelings exist. But to accept every whim every person makes is to be a fool who disregards the past as primative, and the future as enlightening.

As a historian will point out in relation to the "end of the world:" every generation has thought it was the last. I say add to that ideas: every generation has thought it was the best, the brightest, at the peak of a new world order. Time for a reality check

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PerfectCircles

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#2 PerfectCircles
Member since 2009 • 2359 Posts
Yeah why treat homosexuals equally, we should study them instead! :roll:
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Wolls

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#3 Wolls
Member since 2005 • 19119 Posts
we at least progressive enough to use paragraphs :P
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weezyfb

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#4 weezyfb
Member since 2009 • 14703 Posts

Do you think that give women abortions now is some sort of liberation, when it has been going on for centuries? Do you think homosexuals are finally being freed,

peter1191

yes they are being freed...from doing it in secrecy...anicent greek =/ the rest of the world.....and fyi the greeks who were gay were also expect to mate with women

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entropyecho

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#5 entropyecho
Member since 2005 • 22053 Posts

I appreciate all the nods to ancient Greeks. You are supporting what I have been saying all along - Greeks invented everything.

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F1_2004

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#6 F1_2004
Member since 2003 • 8009 Posts
OP seems to think that women and gays want equality for the sake of being "progressive". I think they want equality because nobody wants to be considered inferior. I'm sure you'd feel the same.
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peter1191

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#7 peter1191
Member since 2005 • 591 Posts

I appreciate all the nods to ancient Greeks. You are supporting what I have been saying all along - Greeks invented everything.

entropyecho

Hmmmm, impressive, I see what you did there.....lol. Well, I understand that listening to what I have to say is not a part of the open-minded approach taken by social progressives. I used ancient Greece, ironically, b/c I found it most relevant to a discussion of the progression of western ideas. Guess people sort of missed my point.....or refused to see it all together.

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#8 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
Well, gosh, clearly I should leave the USA and set my wayback machine for ancient Greece so that I can expect equal treatment under the law :roll: TC's screed is the most absurd thing I've seen in quite some time
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#9 peter1191
Member since 2005 • 591 Posts

OP seems to think that women and gays want equality for the sake of being "progressive". I think they want equality because nobody wants to be considered inferior. I'm sure you'd feel the same.F1_2004

Oh let me make something clear: Women are equal to men, and gays equal to heterosexuals. I have had one or two homosexual teachers that I deeply respected for their intellect and teaching ability. Women.....well, its just silly to say they are unequal to men. I need not mention all the women generals throughout history which make men look like sissies (no pun intended). What I am saying is that behavior, such as homosexuality, is certainly not normal. Whether or not men accepted it, women have always played a critical role in the military, intellectual, and simply the advancement of civilization over time, b/c claims of inequality could not change reality. Homosexual relationships are clearly, however, not equal to heterosexual ones, from the mere fact that they can not reproduce, amongst other issues. Now I know how social progressives will respond: "but, but, its love!!" Its that thinking which as made divorce rates up to 50% in the USA. Sadly, my friends, a whim and physical attraction does not constitute "love" nor does "love" constitute all that is marriage.

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#10 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

Sadly, my friends, a whim and physical attraction does not constitute "love" nor does "love" constitute all that is marriage.

peter1191
Sadly, you think "a whim and physical attraction" are why my partner have been together for 6.5 years. Kudos on a spectacular showing of not getting it. Hint: But but it's love
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metroidfood

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#11 metroidfood
Member since 2007 • 11175 Posts

Forget the impossibility of genetic factors predisposing one to homosexuality.

Forget that nature predisposes man to be man and women to be women

peter1191

So heterosexuality is genetic but homosexuality isn't?

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smc91352

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#12 smc91352
Member since 2009 • 7786 Posts
Forget the abandonment of the purpose of marriage(family unit based on love, key word being "family" or one's own offsprings).peter1191
btw, which marriage are we talking about? Marriage was made for men so that they knew the children they were taking care of were really theirs. If their wife was only with him, its guaranteed they would be his children. (Untill Jesus atleast :P) [spoiler] though I may be wrong. I got this from the History channel :P [/spoiler]
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markop2003

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#13 markop2003
Member since 2005 • 29917 Posts
I see what you mean with the cycles but personally i think the Greeks and Romans had a pretty good society.
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194197844077667059316682358889

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#14 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts
I see what you mean with the cycles but personally i think the Greeks and Romans had a pretty good society.markop2003
Nah, the Greeks had their time but it passed. They also had democracy, but since their philosophies have passed, we should totally ditch democracies.
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markop2003

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#16 markop2003
Member since 2005 • 29917 Posts

[QUOTE="F1_2004"]OP seems to think that women and gays want equality for the sake of being "progressive". I think they want equality because nobody wants to be considered inferior. I'm sure you'd feel the same.peter1191

Oh let me make something clear: Women are equal to men, and gays equal to heterosexuals. I have had one or two homosexual teachers that I deeply respected for their intellect and teaching ability. Women.....well, its just silly to say they are unequal to men. I need not mention all the women generals throughout history which make men look like sissies (no pun intended). What I am saying is that behavior, such as homosexuality, is certainly not normal. Whether or not men accepted it, women have always played a critical role in the military, intellectual, and simply the advancement of civilization over time, b/c claims of inequality could not change reality. Homosexual relationships are clearly, however, not equal to heterosexual ones, from the mere fact that they can not reproduce, amongst other issues. Now I know how social progressives will respond: "but, but, its love!!" Its that thinking which as made divorce rates up to 50% in the USA. Sadly, my friends, a whim and physical attraction does not constitute "love" nor does "love" constitute all that is marriage.

I see what you mean with homosexual relationships not being equal if you look at the individual aspects as they physically can't result in offspring (though may be able to soon with genetic engineering). However that does not mean they should be considered inferior, infertile people can't produce offspring yet they are still people just like every one else.
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metroidfood

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#17 metroidfood
Member since 2007 • 11175 Posts

but love need not be marriage per se. You are you're partner are more like "close friends" than "spouses" If I am correct about what you and your partner are (both men). I mean what I say in that you and you're partner are not spouses in the sense that by natural you cannot procreate with each other. Now, I am not trying to insult you, nor am I saying Marriage is better than friendship.

whipassmt

So someone who is biologically sterile can never have more than a freindship with a member of the opposite sex?

Maybe you should reconsider that whole "love by procreation" idea.

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Engrish_Major

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#18 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

but love need not be marriage per se. You are you're partner are more like "close friends" than "spouses" If I am correct about what you and your partner are (both men). I mean what I say in that you and you're partner are not spouses in the sense that by natural you cannot procreate with each other. Now, I am not trying to insult you, nor am I saying Marriage is better than friendship.

whipassmt
I know married people with no kids. They are not "spouses"?
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whipassmt

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#19 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="peter1191"]

Forget the impossibility of genetic factors predisposing one to homosexuality.

Forget that nature predisposes man to be man and women to be women

metroidfood

So heterosexuality is genetic but homosexuality isn't?

well heterosexuality is the natural order. Now what causes homosexuality is debatable, is it a choice? are people born with vulnerabilities to it? Is it caused by psychological issues? Is it a mental disorder (no I'm not trying to offend anyone. Up until the 1950s the AMA did classify it as a medical disorder, they've since rescinded that classification, though maybe more for political reasons than for medical ones).

My guess is that homosexuality is psychological, but perhaps some people are more predisposed to homosexual tendencies just like some people are more predisposed to be depressed or to have bad tempers.

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whipassmt

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#20 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

but love need not be marriage per se. You are you're partner are more like "close friends" than "spouses" If I am correct about what you and your partner are (both men). I mean what I say in that you and you're partner are not spouses in the sense that by natural you cannot procreate with each other. Now, I am not trying to insult you, nor am I saying Marriage is better than friendship.

metroidfood

So someone who is biologically sterile can never have more than a freindship with a member of the opposite sex?

Maybe you should reconsider that whole "love by procreation" idea.

No. There is a difference between a medical condition (ie. infertility), which is an exception to the natural law (ie. a break in the system)and a lack of complementarity of parts (ie two men not being able to get each other pregnant) which is the normal working of the natural law (ie. the normal functioning of the system).

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#21 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="peter1191"]

Sadly, my friends, a whim and physical attraction does not constitute "love" nor does "love" constitute all that is marriage.

whipassmt

Sadly, you think "a whim and physical attraction" are why my partner have been together for 6.5 years. Kudos on a spectacular showing of not getting it. Hint: But but it's love

but love need not be marriage per se. You are you're partner are more like "close friends" than "spouses" If I am correct about what you and your partner are (both men). I mean what I say in that you and you're partner are not spouses in the sense that by natural you cannot procreate with each other. Now, I am not trying to insult you, nor am I saying Marriage is better than friendship.

For someone not trying to insult me, you've done a pretty good job of it.
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Engrish_Major

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#22 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

No. There is a difference between a medical condition (ie. infertility), which is an exception to the natural law (ie. a break in the system)and a lack of complementarity of parts (ie two men not being able to get each other pregnant) which is the normal working of the natural law (ie. the normal functioning of the system).

whipassmt
As far as love and marriage is concerned, no. There is no difference at all.
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whipassmt

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#23 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

but love need not be marriage per se. You are you're partner are more like "close friends" than "spouses" If I am correct about what you and your partner are (both men). I mean what I say in that you and you're partner are not spouses in the sense that by natural you cannot procreate with each other. Now, I am not trying to insult you, nor am I saying Marriage is better than friendship.

Engrish_Major

I know married people with no kids. They are not "spouses"?

1. The natural possibility for them to have kids exists, so they are still spouses 2. However, they are failing in their obligations to society by not perpetuating it. 3. Likewise I do not see why people are so offended, when I say they are more like "close friends" than "spouses" there is nothing wrong with friendship.

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Engrish_Major

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#24 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

1. The natural possibility for them to have kids exists, so they are still spouses 2. However, they are failing in their obligations to society by not perpetuating it. 3. Likewise I do not see why people are so offended, when I say they are more like "close friends" than "spouses" there is nothing wrong with friendship.

whipassmt

No, the natural possibility for them to have kids does not always exist. :|

And friendship is not exclusive. Marriage is.

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metroidfood

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#25 metroidfood
Member since 2007 • 11175 Posts

well heterosexuality is the natural order. Now what causes homosexuality is debatable, is it a choice? are people born with vulnerabilities to it? Is it caused by psychological issues? Is it a mental disorder (no I'm not trying to offend anyone. Up until the 1950s the AMA did classify it as a medical disorder, they've since rescinded that classification, though maybe more for political reasons than for medical ones).

My guess is that homosexuality is psychological, but perhaps some people are more predisposed to homosexual tendencies just like some people are more predisposed to be depressed or to have bad tempers.

whipassmt

Yes, it is debatable as to what causes homosexuality.

It is not debatable that genetics plays a big part.

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whipassmt

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#26 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="xaos"] Sadly, you think "a whim and physical attraction" are why my partner have been together for 6.5 years. Kudos on a spectacular showing of not getting it. Hint: But but it's lovexaos

but love need not be marriage per se. You are you're partner are more like "close friends" than "spouses" If I am correct about what you and your partner are (both men). I mean what I say in that you and you're partner are not spouses in the sense that by natural you cannot procreate with each other. Now, I am not trying to insult you, nor am I saying Marriage is better than friendship.

For someone not trying to insult me, you've done a pretty good job of it.

eh, that happens all the time. People don't try to be offensive, but others get offended nonetheless. Anyways, I'm sorry that you feel insulted, and that there seems to be something getting lost in translation so to speak.

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194197844077667059316682358889

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#28 194197844077667059316682358889
Member since 2003 • 49173 Posts

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="whipassmt"]

but love need not be marriage per se. You are you're partner are more like "close friends" than "spouses" If I am correct about what you and your partner are (both men). I mean what I say in that you and you're partner are not spouses in the sense that by natural you cannot procreate with each other. Now, I am not trying to insult you, nor am I saying Marriage is better than friendship.

whipassmt

I know married people with no kids. They are not "spouses"?

1. The natural possibility for them to have kids exists, so they are still spouses 2. However, they are failing in their obligations to society by not perpetuating it. 3. Likewise I do not see why people are so offended, when I say they are more like "close friends" than "spouses" there is nothing wrong with friendship.

Because I have many close friends, and my relationship is qualitatively different than my relationship with my partner, with whom I have an intense emotional and physical relationship. It is either incredibly naive or utterly disingenuous to claim that you don't see why people take offense at equating partner relationships with "just" close friendship
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whipassmt

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#29 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

No. There is a difference between a medical condition (ie. infertility), which is an exception to the natural law (ie. a break in the system)and a lack of complementarity of parts (ie two men not being able to get each other pregnant) which is the normal working of the natural law (ie. the normal functioning of the system).

Engrish_Major

As far as love and marriage is concerned, no. There is no difference at all.

There is indeed a difference between love and marriage, for instance, I love my family but I am not married to them.

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markop2003

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#30 markop2003
Member since 2005 • 29917 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

1. The natural possibility for them to have kids exists, so they are still spouses 2. However, they are failing in their obligations to society by not perpetuating it. 3. Likewise I do not see why people are so offended, when I say they are more like "close friends" than "spouses" there is nothing wrong with friendship.

Engrish_Major

No, the natural possibility for them to have kids does not always exist. :|

And friendship is not exclusive. Marriage is.

It dosn't have to be exclusive

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Engrish_Major

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#31 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="whipassmt"]

No. There is a difference between a medical condition (ie. infertility), which is an exception to the natural law (ie. a break in the system)and a lack of complementarity of parts (ie two men not being able to get each other pregnant) which is the normal working of the natural law (ie. the normal functioning of the system).

As far as love and marriage is concerned, no. There is no difference at all.

There is indeed a difference between love and marriage, for instance, I love my family but I am not married to them.

Please reread your own statement that I quoted. You took this in an entirely different direction.
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markop2003

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#32 markop2003
Member since 2005 • 29917 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

1. The natural possibility for them to have kids exists, so they are still spouses 2. However, they are failing in their obligations to society by not perpetuating it. 3. Likewise I do not see why people are so offended, when I say they are more like "close friends" than "spouses" there is nothing wrong with friendship.

Engrish_Major

No, the natural possibility for them to have kids does not always exist. :|

And friendship is not exclusive. Marriage is.

It dosn't have to be exclusive

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whipassmt

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#33 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]I know married people with no kids. They are not "spouses"?xaos

1. The natural possibility for them to have kids exists, so they are still spouses 2. However, they are failing in their obligations to society by not perpetuating it. 3. Likewise I do not see why people are so offended, when I say they are more like "close friends" than "spouses" there is nothing wrong with friendship.

Because I have many close friends, and my relationship is qualitatively different than my relationship with my partner, with whom I have an intense emotional and physical relationship. It is either incredibly naive or utterly disingenuous to claim that you don't see why people take offense at equating partner relationships with "just" close friendship

I don't see the point of putting "just" in front of close friendship, because close friendship is not a trivial thing, it is a lofty thing. And yes it is possible to have many close friends, but not at the same level of friendship, some are closer than others. In your case I would say "best friend" (afterall there can only be one "best"). And yes I can see that you might be offended, but offending you is not my intent.

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Engrish_Major

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#34 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

It dosn't have to be exclusive

markop2003

Okay, we're talking about the legalization and acceptance of gay marriage here, not polygamy, of which there is not currently a mainstream push for in the Western world. Modern marriage includes a vow of exclusivity between two people.

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Engrish_Major

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#35 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

I don't see the point of putting "just" in front of close friendship, because close friendship is not a trivial thing, it is a lofty thing. And yes it is possible to have many close friends, but not at the same level of friendship, some are closer than others. In your case I would say "best friend" (afterall there can only be one "best"). And yes I can see that you might be offended, but offending you is not my intent.

whipassmt
So do you believe that you approach the same level of intimacy between you and your best friend as Xaos does with his spouse? Conversely, do you believe that Xaos and his spouse's intimacy does not approach the level of that between a heterosexual couple?
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whipassmt

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#36 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

1. The natural possibility for them to have kids exists, so they are still spouses 2. However, they are failing in their obligations to society by not perpetuating it. 3. Likewise I do not see why people are so offended, when I say they are more like "close friends" than "spouses" there is nothing wrong with friendship.

markop2003

No, the natural possibility for them to have kids does not always exist. :|

And friendship is not exclusive. Marriage is.

It dosn't have to be exclusive

To Engrish, certain friendships however are exclusive (ie. "best friends").

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Engrish_Major

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#37 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

To Engrish, certain friendships however are exclusive (ie. "best friends").

whipassmt
What? When ever did I say that?
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#38 MattUD1
Member since 2004 • 20715 Posts
I think you are looking into the past with a bit of a romanticized notion of how it really was.
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whipassmt

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#39 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

I don't see the point of putting "just" in front of close friendship, because close friendship is not a trivial thing, it is a lofty thing. And yes it is possible to have many close friends, but not at the same level of friendship, some are closer than others. In your case I would say "best friend" (afterall there can only be one "best"). And yes I can see that you might be offended, but offending you is not my intent.

Engrish_Major

So do you believe that you approach the same level of intimacy between you and your best friend as Xaos does with his spouse? Conversely, do you believe that Xaos and his spouse's intimacy does not approach the level of that between a heterosexual couple?

what do you mean by "intimacy"?

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whipassmt

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#40 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

To Engrish, certain friendships however are exclusive (ie. "best friends").

Engrish_Major

What? When ever did I say that?

I didn't see you say that. But I saw Markop quote you, and it looked like you said it.

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Engrish_Major

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#41 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

what do you mean by "intimacy"?

whipassmt
Whatever you want to make of it. Are you as intimate with your best friend as you are with your spouse (or intended spouse if you are not married yet)? Physical or otherwise, doesn't matter.
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Vandalvideo

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#42 Vandalvideo
Member since 2003 • 39655 Posts
[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

I don't see the point of putting "just" in front of close friendship, because close friendship is not a trivial thing, it is a lofty thing. And yes it is possible to have many close friends, but not at the same level of friendship, some are closer than others. In your case I would say "best friend" (afterall there can only be one "best"). And yes I can see that you might be offended, but offending you is not my intent.

Engrish_Major
So do you believe that you approach the same level of intimacy between you and your best friend as Xaos does with his spouse? Conversely, do you believe that Xaos and his spouse's intimacy does not approach the level of that between a heterosexual couple?

Why should intimacy be a metric by which we judge the validity of marriage, a contractual and economic arrangement?
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Engrish_Major

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#43 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

I didn't see you say that. But I saw Markop quote you, and it looked like you said it.

whipassmt
I said frienship is not exclusive.
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Engrish_Major

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#44 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts
Why should intimacy be a metric by which we judge the validity of marriage, a contractual and economic arrangement?Vandalvideo
It's not. I am arguing against whipassmt who states that gay marriage is more like frienship than marriage. Intimacy is the difference there, not the metric by judging validity.
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#45 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

The problem with the modern perception of conservatism and liberalsim (or progressives) is that people view them in hyperbolic terms. It's all or nothing. One or the other. I'd argue that influences from both probably lead to a more stable society. As much as I clamor about fiscal conservatism, I still believe in certain "more progressive" policies.